Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mommy was an Orc 01-06-07, 07:01 PM	I'm happy to debate this elsewhere, Mommy (Infinite Monkeys? or you could start a thread on the rules board), but here let me just say that I discussed this with my Triad before taking the PrC, we went through the rules and concluded that the potential for reduced caster level does not prevent you from casting top-tier spells, and I have never had a GM rule otherwise in play. Three things: Triads cannot make rule decisions. This is a really good example of why not as the example is in PHB and spelled out in detail. DMs primarily rely on players to do things that are legal or to point out possible table variations. A player who is not following the rules is generally only going to get caught when something horrifying happens, not when the violation is minor or unexpected. Page 171 of PHB: "You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, bt the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question." Then they use an example of Mialee at 10th level casting a fireball and how she can reduce the caster level: "And she can't cast fireball with a caster level lower than 5th (the minimum level required for a wizard to cast fireball)." So if you're a Wizard 5/Wild Mage 1, and you roll a 1 while casting Fireball, your caster level is 4th. By the book, the Fireball doesn't go off. This should then be extended to all spells. This creates the problem - by casting a top-tier spell, there's a 16-33% chance depending on your level that you fail to have the minimum caster level. As a 9th level character casting a 5th level spell, a 1 or 2 means it doesn't go off. If you cast a 4th level spell, there's no problem, as your minimum caster level is 7th.
budleiser 01-06-07, 08:42 PM	Then they use an example of Mialee at 10th level casting a fireball and how she can reduce the caster level: "And she can't cast fireball with a caster level lower than 5th (the minimum level required for a wizard to cast fireball)." So if you're a Wizard 5/Wild Mage 1, and you roll a 1 while casting Fireball, your caster level is 4th. By the book, the Fireball doesn't go off. This should then be extended to all spells. Unless theres timing rules I have not seen I disagree. I have lots of timing questions (see spell storing weapon with umd thread) but unlike MTG timing and rules are not as well laid out in D&D. It says Mialee cannot "cast fireball". It does not go on to say IF she was casting it, it fails. Does anything specify what will happen if your CL drops WHILE casting something? A)It could be read that Mialee could not BEGIN casting fireball if her CL was to low. B) It could be read that it does indeed FAIL if CL is to low. Are there any more examples that could point to which it is?
pedr 01-06-07, 09:05 PM	Well with Divine Spell Power which has a similar potential to lower your CL, that's a free action which modifies the CL of the next spell you cast, so long as you cast it within the same round. So if you roll low you can decide to cast a different spell or not cast at all - though of course you've already used up the turn attempt and you can't use another turn attempt for DSP or any other divine feat that round. Reading the Wild Magic ability of the Wild Mage it's reasonably clear that a Wild Mage's base CL is three lower than normal. I would probably rule that if you try to cast a spell without having sufficient caster level you simply fail - the spell isn't spent, just nothing happens. I don't believe you have enough understanding of the vagaries of wild magic to know ahead of choosing the spell whether your CL is sufficient for it though - so you expend the energy and time, but nothing happens.
awroe 01-06-07, 09:25 PM	Of course the simple solution to this is to take Practiced Spellcaster - then you can't fail to have a high enough CL.
Mommy was an Orc 01-07-07, 10:30 AM	Unless theres timing rules I have not seen I disagree. I have lots of timing questions (see spell storing weapon with umd thread) but unlike MTG timing and rules are not as well laid out in D&D. It says Mialee cannot "cast fireball". It does not go on to say IF she was casting it, it fails. Does anything specify what will happen if your CL drops WHILE casting something? Wild Mage doesn't have their CL drop while casting. A Wizard 5/Wild Mage 1 has a CL of 3 that goes up 1d6 when casting. And a Wizard 5/Wild Mage uses the Wizard rules for spellcasting; they don't get special rules because their caster level is dropped by 3 in terms of page 171 because it doesn't say they do. I'd personally rule the spell fails and is lost. Mainly because that seems to be the spirit of the rules for 171 and Wild Mage - you play with Wild Magic, and sometimes it burns you. As noted, Practiced Spellcaster is the obvious way around this problem...
bhale187 01-07-07, 11:35 AM	I'd personally rule the spell fails and is lost. Mainly because that seems to be the spirit of the rules for 171 and Wild Mage - you play with Wild Magic, and sometimes it burns you. I would agree, the spirit of Wild Magic is suggestive of possible failures as well as the occasional added potency.
copper_wyrmling 01-08-07, 12:20 AM	Wild Mage doesn't have their CL drop while casting. A Wizard 5/Wild Mage 1 has a CL of 3 that goes up 1d6 when casting. And a Wizard 5/Wild Mage uses the Wizard rules for spellcasting; they don't get special rules because their caster level is dropped by 3 in terms of page 171 because it doesn't say they do. I'd personally rule the spell fails and is lost. Mainly because that seems to be the spirit of the rules for 171 and Wild Mage - you play with Wild Magic, and sometimes it burns you. As noted, Practiced Spellcaster is the obvious way around this problem... First: I understand that Triads can't make rules decisions. I mentioned that I discussed it with them purely as an indication that I had thought about this, checked the rules, and talked it over with some fairly impartial people before coming to my conclusion - as opposed to simply assuming the most beneficial interpretation of the rules for my character. Like I said, I'm happy to argue this, I just didn't want to derail that other thread any further ;) Second: I know that based on the wording in CA, it looks like you take -3 to your permanent caster level, and then when you cast a spell you apply a separate +1d6 modifier. However, the FAQ contradicts this, stating that the (1d6-3) is all a single adjustment (else Practised Spellcaster would work much better for wild mages than it actually does). To make sense of the FAQ ruling, as far as I can see you need to interpret the (1d6-3) as a single modifier applied at casting time. This is supported in the PrC text by the wording, "She reduces her caster level by 3 for all spells she casts from now on..." Third: I agree that you cannot voluntarily lower your caster level below YOUR MINIMUM to cast the spell - "the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question". However, this minimum varies for different characters. A bard / wizard / sublime chord can happily cast fourth-level spells (and first-level spells, and second-level spells) from the sorcerer/wizard list with caster level *two* - the prestige class allows them to ignore the normal rules for wizards. Complete Arcane, unlike the PHB, maintains only a very tenuous link between caster level and spellcasting level. My sorcerer first got the ability to cast fourth-level spells when she was a sorc 6 / wild mage 2; thus, the caster level that she had then (8 or 5 depending on your interpretation) is the minimum level to which she can voluntarily reduce her caster level for fourth-level spells, and then the wild magic modifies the spell as the casts it, adding either +1d6 (if you think her permanent CL then was 5) or +1d6-3 (if her permanent CL was 8). Fourth (and this is where I start arguing my viewpoint rather than simply showing that there are reasonable alternatives to yours): At the time the PHB was written, there were very few effects that could lower your caster level below your "spellcasting level" (my phrase for "effective sorcerer / wizard / whatever level for the purpose of determining spells / day"). The restrictions on p.171 refer to deliberately lowering your caster level. To determine the intent of the PHB in cases where your caster level is lowered involuntarily, we should try to find such an example: the only one that I'm aware of is energy drain. Energy drain lowers your effective caster level - see for example DMG p.300, a negative level confers "-1 to effective level for the purpose of determining the power, duration, DC and other details of spells or special abilities". If Wild Mages who roll a 1 or a 2 can't cast their top-level spells, then nor can any caster who's been hit once by a vampire. Given that this is not touched upon in the description of energy drain, and that it would make the loss of high-level spell slots almost redundant, I am fairly certain that this demonstrates that lowered caster level does not deny the ability to cast top-tier spells. Fifth: Regarding the spirit of the rules and wild magic... you are saying that you feel the intention of the class is that in exchange for a chance of getting +1-3 to caster level (which does not alter the level of spell you have access to), you have a 1/3 chance of losing the spell altogether. It's always hard to argue spirit of the rules, but to quote from the flavor text: "Chaos is strong, and her magic often carries her to heights of power that other spellcasters cannot reach - but chaos is also fickle, and her spells sometimes fall short of her expectations." "This risk allows the potential of power greater than other casters can hope for. Of course, she also risks the potential for less power." Not "her spells sometimes fail". They "sometimes fall short". Not "she loses the reliability of being able to cast all her spells", but she risks "the potential for less power". The description of the ability is symmetric: the consequences for rolling low mirror those for rolling high. Also, at the end of the section on wild magic, how do they describe caster level? "Caster level affects all level-based variables of a spell, including spell penetration checks." By the spirit of the rules, does it truly seem to you that they would include such a severe penalty (with no commensurate benefit) and never mention it? It seems much more likely to me that in exchange for the cost of entry (one fairly useless feat and a whole lot of cross-class skill points) you get an ability that adds on average +0.5 CL, with the potential to go significantly higher or lower. (Also, the sample PC doesn't have Practised Spellcaster, but the general standard of sample PCs in these books is so poor that I'm not going to use that as a serious point... although it does add another featherweight on my side of the argument.) Anyway, I hope that made sense: I'm unlikely to post any further arguments in the immediate future, as I have exams starting tomorrow. It was the energy drain argument that convinced me that it wasn't even a grey area, when another player pointed it out, although if people have been playing that a hit from a vampire does remove all top-tier spellcasting, then that argument fails (but if that's the case, my split ray enervations are even scarier than I thought they were - win some lose some ;) )
Mommy was an Orc 01-08-07, 08:12 AM	A bard / wizard / sublime chord can happily cast fourth-level spells (and first-level spells, and second-level spells) from the sorcerer/wizard list with caster level *two* No. He can cast 4th level spells with caster level two. He cannot cast 1st and 2nd level spells with caster level two. And that's irrelevant - a Sublime Chord is its own casting class. The minimum Bard level to cast Tasha's is 2, even if for a Wizard it is 3. That doesn't let a Wizard claim he too should be able to be caster level 2 for Tasha's. Fourth (and this is where I start arguing my viewpoint rather than simply showing that there are reasonable alternatives to yours): At the time the PHB was written, there were very few effects that could lower your caster level below your "spellcasting level" (my phrase for "effective sorcerer / wizard / whatever level for the purpose of determining spells / day"). The restrictions on p.171 refer to deliberately lowering your caster level. To determine the intent of the PHB in cases where your caster level is lowered involuntarily, we should try to find such an example: the only one that I'm aware of is energy drain. Energy drain lowers your effective caster level - see for example DMG p.300, a negative level confers "-1 to effective level for the purpose of determining the power, duration, DC and other details of spells or special abilities". If Wild Mages who roll a 1 or a 2 can't cast their top-level spells, then nor can any caster who's been hit once by a vampire. Given that this is not touched upon in the description of energy drain, and that it would make the loss of high-level spell slots almost redundant, I am fairly certain that this demonstrates that lowered caster level does not deny the ability to cast top-tier spells. There's a difference between effective and actual. When you are level drained, you don't actually lose a level(at least not immediately), you have a penalty which is similar to having lost a level. Your stats actually stay the same. You don't really have a lowered caster level, your spells act as if you had a lowered caster level. To think of it in a slightly different manner - a Fighter 7 who has been energy drained 2 levels is still a Fighter 7 - he still has a +7 BAB, even if there is a penalty of -2 to hit. i.e. he still gets his iterative attack, it just isn't as effective as it would be normally. He still has say a +7 Fort Save, but he applies a -2 penalty to it. If he had cross-classed Tumble, he still has 5 ranks and gains the synergy benefits and specials from it. If your Sorc/Wild Mage got drained 2 levels at level 8, you're still a Wild Mage. Similarly, a Wizard 5 who has been energy drained 1 level still has an actual caster level of 5. His Fireball has an actual caster level of 5. However, when you calculate the effects of the spell, you treat him as being caster level 4. That doesn't change the fact that the Wizard is actually casting it at caster level 5, even if it is effectively caster level 4 due to the penalty applied to all the effects of the spell. A Wizard 5/Wild Mage 1 who rolls a 1 when casting a Fireball has an actual caster level of 4 regardless of how you slice it. That's the problem.