Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jay_Ibero_911 02-01-08, 12:49 PM	Most re-roll abilities specify that you have to use them before you find out success or failure, but natural 1's on attack rolls and saves are automatic failures. Therefore, if you roll a 1 on an attack or save, you already know the outcome, and then would be unable to use most common re-roll abilities. I hope someone can provide a good counter to this argument, because I would hate for this to actually make sense...
solbergb 02-01-08, 01:48 PM	The outcome is determined by the GM. If he has not yet spoken, you can reroll the dice. Yes, you get to use the information on the die you rolled, but not information the GM knows. That's what those abilities mean when they say you have to decide before the outcome is decided. It doesn't matter if the die rolled makes you pretty sure of the outcome all by itself. ======================================== ============= If it helps from a roleplay standpoint, consider a high roll to mean you know you did pretty well. Just imagine some sport you've played...bowling for example. When the ball leaves your hand, you usually know if you botched it or not, although you might not know whether you really hit the strike zone till the ball hits the pins. A "1" is a throw that flies off your hand straight at the gutter, possibly even involving it sticking to your fingers or you stumbling or something. a "20" likely feels good right from the moment it starts rolling. If you have a reroll talent or ability, you can "feel" the bad throw coming and adjust before you toss the ball into the gutter. This could be by asking for help from your god (great fervor feat), calling on reserves of luck (luck domain or feats), giving it a telekenetic push (ok, that's how my telekenetic sorcereress describes HER fatespinner reroll tricks) or just being so damn good moments like that don't happen barring a wild fluke (most EX reroll feats) People don't reroll high rolls, and do reroll low rolls. 1s and 20s are just extreme versions. People like fatespinners who can reroll other people's dice get to know how the monsters rolled too, but not their attack mods etc. Again this might be supernatural perception of fortune, or keen observation of what the creature is doing that causes you to interfere. Some rerolls happen after you know the outcome too. (Not this Time card is one of them)
Istaran 02-01-08, 02:22 PM	A 1 is an automatic failure on an attack or saving through only when the normal rules apply. You have no idea what special circumstancial modifiers might apply at any given time. XE regularly has a special class of Will saves where 1 is not an autofail. Maybe you're in a perverse luck field where 1's on attack rolls are auto-crits? It is a safe bet that you are not, but there is no reason a mod writer can't put that into a combat. Maybe that perverse luck field only affects you for some reason (because you're the right race/gender/height/age/hair color or have some random plot relavent item on you, who knows?) so the fact some one else's 1 was an automiss doesn't mean yours isn't an auto-crit. You know only the standard rules, the number on the die, and whatever the GM has shared with you. It's a safe bet that the 1 is going to miss, so you probably do want to reroll it, but not truly a guarantee.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-01-08, 02:51 PM	Sounds good to me.
solbergb 02-01-08, 04:26 PM	Actually the above is a good point. In one module, you could get a curse where natural 20 attack rolls became natural 1s. Until you learn about the curse, nobody would know to reroll the 20s.
clannagh 02-03-08, 06:18 PM	CS has luck feats that amongst other things turn natural ones into 20's on saves and attack rolls let you reroll a luck domain reroll and force opponents to reroll crit confirms and attack rolls. To be safe with tough DMs, it might help on a "save or die" roll to announce before you even roll "if its a one i elect to reroll it"
ChainLink 02-05-08, 10:43 PM	If Nat 1's precluded the use of rerolls, we have to worry about what happens when a player knows even more information... If my attack bonus is +11, and through observation I know my target's AC is 24, then I know that I need a roll of 13 or higher to succeed on an attack. In this case, a roll of 10 is just as much a "known outcome" as the 1 is. Can I not use my reroll just because I already know the roll has failed? I agree with solbergb. Until the DM has declared success or failure, the roll can be rerolled.
JamesMaissen 02-06-08, 02:08 AM	If Nat 1's precluded the use of rerolls, we have to worry about what happens when a player knows even more information... If my attack bonus is +11, and through observation I know my target's AC is 24, then I know that I need a roll of 13 or higher to succeed on an attack. In this case, a roll of 10 is just as much a "known outcome" as the 1 is. Can I not use my reroll just because I already know the roll has failed? I agree with solbergb. Until the DM has declared success or failure, the roll can be rerolled. Bottom line is until the DM declares that you've missed you don't know that you have or haven't. In the example given the target could have been fighting defensively and had buff's running when a 23 missed and a 24 hit. But when you attack that AC could have dropped significantly. The only real thing is, as a judge, either give a pause for players to react to things or when you don't.. give them a chance to use the ability. -James
ChainLink 02-06-08, 02:31 AM	In the example given the target could have been fighting defensively and had buff's running when a 23 missed and a 24 hit. But when you attack that AC could have dropped significantly. That's sort of missing the point. The numbers don't matter. If my attack bonus is +3 and my roll is a 4, then unless my opponent is helpless, unarmored, etc, I know I missed, and we face the same dilemma. Regardless, I agree with the rest of your post...Until the DM knows what your total is and has confirmed or denied, the result is not truly "known".
JamesMaissen 02-06-08, 06:15 AM	That's sort of missing the point. The numbers don't matter. If my attack bonus is +3 and my roll is a 4, then unless my opponent is helpless, unarmored, etc, I know I missed, and we face the same dilemma. Well to continue being nitpicky.. with shock trooper out there I've seen PCs that are easier to hit than the squares that they stand in... -James
solbergb 02-06-08, 02:18 PM	Who needs shock trooper for that? (who has a character that was caught without armor and whose AC was "4" after reckless rage and charging....) I've got two characters that when the GM picks up the dice and said "That missed" I say "are you sure. My AC is under ten right now...."
ChainLink 02-14-08, 04:58 AM	Well to continue being nitpicky.. with shock trooper out there I've seen PCs that are easier to hit than the squares that they stand in... -James ...*cough* Still straying from the point... I assumed all of these corner cases would fall under the "etc".
JamesMaissen 02-14-08, 07:05 AM	...*cough* Still straying from the point... As more and more things are put out that 'etc' can cover a lot of ground. Sure you can make a reasonable guess and be right a god awful amount of the time. That's great.. just tells you when you should benefit from the reroll. -James
Koushiro 02-17-08, 03:16 AM	I'd think to be fair as a player that a roll of a natural 1 is a known failure in most things. You know 20's are success and 1's are failures as it's part of the game. Things happen and that's the general idea of having that kind of rule in place. It's not like we've got some kind of insane critical mass tables floating about like some crazy home games do. Depends on what your re-rolling too though, since skill checks and certain other checks don't automatically fail because of a low role. I have a paladin who scores a 25 on his diplomacy check with the roll of a 1 after all. The best case to do would probably be just to ask the DM if she'll allow you to reroll it or not. If the DM is willing to let you I'm certainly not going to complain. It's a game, we're here to have fun.
Istaran 02-19-08, 03:42 PM	I'd think to be fair as a player that a roll of a natural 1 is a known failure in most things. You know 20's are success and 1's are failures as it's part of the game. Things happen and that's the general idea of having that kind of rule in place. It's not like we've got some kind of insane critical mass tables floating about like some crazy home games do. Depends on what your re-rolling too though, since skill checks and certain other checks don't automatically fail because of a low role. I have a paladin who scores a 25 on his diplomacy check with the roll of a 1 after all. The best case to do would probably be just to ask the DM if she'll allow you to reroll it or not. If the DM is willing to let you I'm certainly not going to complain. It's a game, we're here to have fun. The whole point of the luck rerolls is that you stop the 'things happen' from happening because you're just that lucky. You were due for a nat 1 auto-miss or auto-failed-save, but you're just too lucky and you wiggle your way out of your unfortunate fate into a luckier one. Luck won't always save you (it's a reroll, not an auto-success) but with good stats plus rerolls you can avoid a lot of failures that others would have to endure. Having those luck rerolls means that no, you don't have to fail your saves a minimum of 5% of the time like everyone else does. As far as using luck rerolls goes, I recommend using the same technique I ask my players to use in games with action points: use any abilities that will modify the roll after the fact (action points, luck re-rolls, etc.) before you tell the DM what you rolled. DM: What did you roll? Player: Hold on, I'm going to use a luck re-roll. *roll* dang. as opposed to DM: What did you roll? Player: nat 1.. DM: ok that fa- player: hold on! I'm going to use a luck re-roll. *roll* dang. The DM's impulse as soon as you give a number is going to be to tell you whether you succeeded or failed. Once the DM has spoken, the DM has spoken. It's too late to use most rerolls at that point. That is when you officially Know whether you succeeded or failed. Until then you only "know" in that you have suspicions (perhaps very strong ones) that your nat 1 is a failure. Such 'knowledge' is meta-game in nature and cannot be used for rules purposes. It is not a fact within the game that can determine in game things like whether or not an ability can be used.