Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ralis 06-11-07, 12:30 PM	Alright, Here's my question: I play a human, so if I was to be reincarnated as say an Elf, would I end up loosing my bonus feat for starting as a human? I know I wouldn't loose skill points (and if I did it doesn't matter to me) The other thing, is where can I find the rulings about such things for future reference.
Hariman 06-11-07, 11:20 PM	I had a human that was reincarnated. My local DMs told me that when a human is reincarnated they keep their human bonus feat and human skill points up to the level before they died. (IE: If you die at level 2, you get the initial 4 skill points and the human feat, even in your new form.) I believe that the reason a human keeps the bonus feat is because the feat is learned/mental and thus it is not a physical feature of humanity to lose because of the reincarnate spell. This means you get to play an elf with a human bonus feat! Although I do have to mention that my second death turned my elf into a halfling with a human bonus feat and no elf goodies. I, unfortunately, can't point to specific rulings. Other than the rulings from my local DMs. Hariman
DroidTrooper 06-12-07, 10:49 AM	I suppose referencing the Player's Handbook is the best place to start. In particular the line that says "It retains any class abilities, feats, or skill ranks it formerly possessed." This is the reason that many GMs believe the spell allows humans to retain their feats.
delewobmesid 06-12-07, 03:08 PM	I understand that a charcter keeps it's skills/feats from before the reincarnate and gains the physical attributes of the new form; my question is, does the character continue gaining the human bonus skill point/lvl and the invserse, do character reincarnated as a human gain the bonus skill point/lvl? anything that is associated with racial training, (favored enemy, dodge bonus vs giants or bonus feat) stay, while those things associated with the form are switched to the new form (dark vision, keen eyes and ears of elves, etc) I'm leaning toward the former human continuing of gain bonus skill point/lvl, but am looking for some kind of wording to dispute this (I'm sure there is one, just not sure where)
Hariman 06-12-07, 05:57 PM	I understand that a charcter keeps it's skills/feats from before the reincarnate and gains the physical attributes of the new form; my question is, does the character continue gaining the human bonus skill point/lvl and the invserse, do character reincarnated as a human gain the bonus skill point/lvl? anything that is associated with racial training, (favored enemy, dodge bonus vs giants or bonus feat) stay, while those things associated with the form are switched to the new form (dark vision, keen eyes and ears of elves, etc) I'm leaning toward the former human continuing of gain bonus skill point/lvl, but am looking for some kind of wording to dispute this (I'm sure there is one, just not sure where) Ah, but even if you WERE human, your character isn't anymore after being reincarnated. So, even though he keeps previously gained skill points and the human bonus feat, the new racial abilities supplant that, preventing a reincarnated human from gaining more human skill points.
GorTeX 06-13-07, 10:53 AM	...my question is, does the character continue gaining the human bonus skill point/lvl No and the invserse, do character reincarnated as a human gain the bonus skill point/lvl? yes, but only from the new level onward anything that is associated with racial training, (favored enemy, dodge bonus vs giants or bonus feat) stay, while those things associated with the form are switched to the new form (dark vision, keen eyes and ears of elves, etc) If I understand it correctly, (and I may be wrong here), you lose Favored enemies, dodge bonus vs giants, etc, as these are not technically feats, but racial attributes. For Example: I have a Dwarf (chain fighter) who was re-incarnated into a Gnome (still a chain fighter, just not a tripping one now)... I lost all the dwarven traits/racial abilites--so I can't weild a Dwarven waraxe one-handed anymore, nor do I get +1 to hit Orcs, or the +2 save vs. Poisons and spells...and darkvision is gone :( I do get the gnome traits/racial abilites..so I can weild a gnome hooked hammer, get low light vision, and can talk to burrowing animals (can't cast the gnome spells as my charisma stays at 6 ) of note is that my 'racial' language is still Dwarven, and I can't, yet, speak gnomish (will probably pick it up once i become a dragon disciple...)
Mattastrophic 06-13-07, 11:46 AM	Actually, you would lose your human bonus feat and bonus skill points, just like what would happen when you Polymorphed from Human to Something Else. Even though Reincarnate says you keep your skills and feats, the Human bonus skill points and bonus feats are a bit different, because they're technically racial bonus skill points and racial bonus feats, just like how Troglodytes get Multiattack or Giants get Martial Weapon Proficiency. So yeah, reincarnate = bad news, in this case. Just pay the 5K and save yourself the headache and the risk of losing the character... or worse, ending up Halfling or something. -Matt
_metz_ 06-13-07, 01:14 PM	Actually, you would lose your human bonus feat and bonus skill points, just like what would happen when you Polymorphed from Human to Something Else. Even though Reincarnate says you keep your skills and feats, the Human bonus skill points and bonus feats are a bit different, because they're technically racial bonus skill points and racial bonus feats, just like how Troglodytes get Multiattack or Giants get Martial Weapon Proficiency. So yeah, reincarnate = bad news, in this case. Just pay the 5K and save yourself the headache and the risk of losing the character... or worse, ending up Halfling or something. -Matt Pretty sure you don't lose the feat. Its not a physical trait, its a mental one. You retain existing mental traits, (and weapon proficiencies if say, ex elf or dwarf) and change your physical ones. Proficiencies especially represent training and experience. They definiantely are not lost. *Ooh I am no longer an elf so can't figure out which end is the pointy bit* You may be less capable in holding or using it (lost strength or dex) but you still know HOW. You however lose FURTHER mental trait bonuses, such as new skill points each level. I have seen that somewhere but I can't quite place it *runs off to look through FAQs etc...
Hariman 06-13-07, 08:35 PM	No yes, but only from the new level onward If I understand it correctly, (and I may be wrong here), you lose Favored enemies, dodge bonus vs giants, etc, as these are not technically feats, but racial attributes. For Example: I have a Dwarf (chain fighter) who was re-incarnated into a Gnome (still a chain fighter, just not a tripping one now)... I lost all the dwarven traits/racial abilites--so I can't weild a Dwarven waraxe one-handed anymore, nor do I get +1 to hit Orcs, or the +2 save vs. Poisons and spells...and darkvision is gone :( I do get the gnome traits/racial abilites..so I can weild a gnome hooked hammer, get low light vision, and can talk to burrowing animals (can't cast the gnome spells as my charisma stays at 6 ) of note is that my 'racial' language is still Dwarven, and I can't, yet, speak gnomish (will probably pick it up once i become a dragon disciple...) That is almost correct. The only thing that is wrong is that your character keeps the dwarven weapon familiarity. I'm pretty sure that _metz_ is correct in his analysis. I forgot to mention in my earlier post, even though my character didn't lose his human bonus feat, he didn't gain any elven weapon proficiencies. And I'm pretty sure that any non-human character that gets reincarnated into a human DOESN'T gain a human bonus feat. This is because humans gain their bonus feat at first level AND because it is a mental part of the human race, so you don't gain it because you become human.
GorTeX 06-14-07, 12:22 AM	Ok..what exactly are a Dwarves Mental racial abilities? Physcical: -+2 con -Land speed 20ft -darkvision 60ft -+2 save vs poison -stability -+2 save vs spells/effects -Medium Sized Mental: -Racial language: Dwarven -(-2) CHA In Question: -Stonecutting (trained or inate for every dwarf) -Weapon Familarity: Dwarven Waraxe and Urgosh. -+1 to hit Orcs/Goblins -+4 AC vs Giants -Favored Class: Fighter And the same for a Gnome Physical: -(-2) STR -+2 CON -Land speed 20' -Low-Light vision -Spell like abilites -+2 vs Illusions -small sized Mental -Racial Language: Gnome In Doubt -+1 DC for Illusions cast -+1 to hit goblins/koblods -+4 AC vs giants -+2 Craft(alchemy) and Listen -Favored Class: Bard -Weapon Familiarity:Gnome Hooked Hammer Currently, my formerly Dwarven Gnome is stated out as: -(-2) STR -+2 CON -Land speed 20' -Low-Light vision -Spell like abilites -+2 vs Illusions -small sized -+1 DC for Illusions cast -+1 to hit goblins/koblods -+4 AC vs giants -+2 Craft(alchemy) and Listen -Favored Class: Bard -Weapon Familiarity:Gnome Hooked Hammer -Racial language: Dwarven -(-2) CHA Should it be different???
_metz_ 06-15-07, 08:08 AM	The skill bonuses on listen and spot are physical. otherwise most of your 'in doubt' stuff is considered mental or to due with racial training or predispositions. (e.g: Stonecutting comes from living underground) Weapon Proficiencies are definitely mental.
Zanzibax 06-15-07, 12:33 PM	The skill bonuses on listen and spot are physical. otherwise most of your 'in doubt' stuff is considered mental or to due with racial training or predispositions. (e.g: Stonecutting comes from living underground) Weapon Proficiencies are definitely mental. We need a FAQ that explicitly delineates what you lose and gain for each reincarnation don't we. *sigh*
_metz_ 06-15-07, 12:34 PM	We need a FAQ that explicitly delineates what you lose and gain for each reincarnation don't we. *sigh* That would be fantastic. But too fantastic. It'll never happen :P
GorTeX 06-15-07, 12:39 PM	sheesh..mabye re-incarnate should be closed..no-one seems to agree 100% on the way to resolve the re-incarnae.
pedr 06-15-07, 01:47 PM	I agree that it's complicated, though some of the things people query are absolutely clear. You do not alter mental statistics at all. That's clear. You do not lose any feats or skill ranks. It says it, in black and white. Losing a bonus feat is losing a feat, and you "retain[] any ... feats [and] skill ranks [you] formerly posessed" You gain everything (except automatically speaking the language) that the new race gets. The wording is "all abilities". That would certainly include the bonus skill point per level from then on if your new form is human. I think it would include a bonus feat as well. It's an 'ability'. The complications are these, and they're not the ones talked about because the answer would seem to be obvious: 1) The spell doesn't say that you lose the abilities of the previous form. I'd say that was obvious, subject to the earlier caveat about feats and skill ranks. 2) The spell says that you retain your BAB and hit points and so on, then says your Constitution might change and you lose a Hit Die. This is poorly worded (a strict reading would have you one HD lower but with the same BAB, Base Save Bonus and hit points as you had before - and the same hit points as before even if your Constitution went up or down) but the intent, I think is clearly that you don't lose (or gain) hit points due to the operation of the spell, but the normal effect of a changing Constitution and a decrease in Hit Dice operates as normal.