| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Mistimp08-18-07, 01:56 PM | Ok, there is a lot of chat on here about reseting or dropping the campaign. Many are of the opinion that WotC won't do anything that would cause them to lose such a big group of players. Look closely at the end of this quote which has been floating around the forum. "Living Greyhawk – will be coming to a triumphant close next year, and they will be starting fresh with a new batch of characters and players. This will be discussed tonight or tomorrow" Note the words "and players." No they don't care if they lose any of us. Seems like that is the intent. They will simply gain back all the players they kicked to the curb when they killed Living City. |
| CdrcJsn08-18-07, 02:08 PM | Ok, there is a lot of chat on here about reseting or dropping the campaign. Many are of the opinion that WotC won't do anything that would cause them to lose such a big group of players. Look closely at the end of this quote which has been floating around the forum. "Living Greyhawk – will be coming to a triumphant close next year, and they will be starting fresh with a new batch of characters and players. This will be discussed tonight or tomorrow" Note the words "and players." No they don't care if they lose any of us. Seems like that is the intent. They will simply gain back all the players they kicked to the curb when they killed Living City. Could be intended, could be a mistake in speech, or considering this is some dude's report from a seminar and not an actual press release, maybe something got lost in the translation... Why would any business want to drive away customers? |
| Howie2308-18-07, 03:15 PM | Ok, there is a lot of chat on here about reseting or dropping the campaign. Many are of the opinion that WotC won't do anything that would cause them to lose such a big group of players. Look closely at the end of this quote which has been floating around the forum. "Living Greyhawk – will be coming to a triumphant close next year, and they will be starting fresh with a new batch of characters and players. This will be discussed tonight or tomorrow" Note the words "and players." No they don't care if they lose any of us. Seems like that is the intent. They will simply gain back all the players they kicked to the curb when they killed Living City. Redfist recently posted, on another list, the idea of reading things twice. Once assuming bad intentions from the author, and once assuming good intentions from the author. It really is an incredible piece of wisdom. New players. Does that mean replacement players, with the expectation that all existing players will go away? New players. Does that mean additional players, with the expectation that existing players will be augmented by others? New players. Is that a realistic statement that some portion will always leave when the status quo is changed, leaving a rump of players that is augmented by a crop of additional players? From a responsible business perspective, the number of additional players will outnumber those that leave, for a net gain. Lots of ways to read this. David |
| Grimslade200108-18-07, 04:24 PM | I read it as bringing new players into the RPGA. R&D may not care for LG but they do care about the players. We buy an incredible amount of stuff for our Living campaign. We talk about new rules constantly. We are fantastic ambassadors for new stuff. They may not like the extra work LG causes but they can't dispute the results. LG is magnitudes larger than LC ever was. |
| Mistimp08-18-07, 05:41 PM | New players. Is that a realistic statement that some portion will always leave when the status quo is changed, leaving a rump of players that is augmented by a crop of additional players? From a responsible business perspective, the number of additional players will outnumber those that leave, for a net gain. Lots of ways to read this. David This is close to my personal interpretation. I believe that they don't care if some leave because they think it will result in a net gain. I do not believe that ending LG will result in a net gain, especially in the short term. In the long term the number of players will go up just because it is always on the increase, having nothing to do with what campaign the RPGA is running. If you read this forum you will see a large number of posts about how people don't want to play FR and that they will quit the RPGA if this change takes place. I also read the D&D General forums, and over there are large numbers of posts from people who won't play RPGA because there is no FR. Ideally, from a business stand-point, they should keep LG and add FR. As most of the work is done by volunteers anyway, this should be easy enough and cheap enough to do, and would result in the most gain. Based on past changes, I seriously doubt this will happen. |
| clannagh08-19-07, 12:28 AM | If you read this forum you will see a large number of posts about how people don't want to play FR and that they will quit the RPGA if this change takes place. I also read the D&D General forums, and over there are large numbers of posts from people who won't play RPGA because there is no FR. A significant number of people may not even play next year. Basically however there is always pressure on WoTC to run FR especially from the ex-PC gamer fraternity. Clearly they feel they can't run both and marketing felt the prospects of getting new players with FR outweighed the loss of the odd LG-er who will not convert. In reality there are countries like Australia where if the changeover is done badly it may well kill RPGA almost completely, but even that is "small biccies" on the grand marketing scheme of things. You will most likely find the decisions are based on figures for prospective US sales to 12 -20 year olds. Now we all know most of that group will play for a year as a fad and quit but in terms of low IQ but fancy degree marketing types a sale is a sale. |
| KarmaInferno08-19-07, 12:44 AM | I was at a Gen Con a few years ago where Ed Greenwood made a short speech at a nice dinner gathering/LARP thing. He mentioned about how wonderful it was to see so many familiar faces again, simply a treat. He also mentioned how it was a little disturbing, and that in a few years he hoped the aging gathered wouldn't be at another similar get-together just to compare notes on who survived to THAT year. We need new players. Always. They are a major part of what keeps this industry going. It can't survive on just the existing player base. Plus, you know, we need replacement for those of us who die of old age. -karma |
| LGMoses08-19-07, 01:23 AM | 4e means some new players and the dying off of a few older ones. I'm eager to see the new system though I'm hoping that its not too similar to the SAGA system for Star Wars. I don't like the murder of Greyhawk but hey what are you going to do. I'm wondering If I should even trouble to run these "epic" mods that are suppossed to be coming out next year. I'm worried how my group is going to feel about this when I tell them. |
| Zanzibax08-19-07, 06:03 PM | Ok, there is a lot of chat on here about reseting or dropping the campaign. Many are of the opinion that WotC won't do anything that would cause them to lose such a big group of players. Look closely at the end of this quote which has been floating around the forum. "Living Greyhawk – will be coming to a triumphant close next year, and they will be starting fresh with a new batch of characters and players. This will be discussed tonight or tomorrow" Note the words "and players." No they don't care if they lose any of us. Seems like that is the intent. They will simply gain back all the players they kicked to the curb when they killed Living City. Unlikely. |
| The_Jester08-20-07, 10:10 AM | Of course they only care about new and returning players. They're the ones who will buy the book and keep them in a job. LFR will attract alot of people who weren't interested in Greyhawk and hopefully bypass the forever fragmenting Greyhawk fanbase. If they push it more it might bring more people into the RPGA. And those already members of the RPGA who don't play LG (Xenidrik fans, etc) will likely give LFR a chance so there'll be alot of interest early on. |
| clannagh08-21-07, 12:38 AM | Of course they only care about new and returning players. They're the ones who will buy the book and keep them in a job. LFR will attract alot of people who weren't interested in Greyhawk and hopefully bypass the forever fragmenting Greyhawk fanbase. If they push it more it might bring more people into the RPGA. And those already members of the RPGA who don't play LG (Xenidrik fans, etc) will likely give LFR a chance so there'll be alot of interest early on. The interesting question was did they kill LG because they needed the LG player base or else FR would fail ? Or is LG just a non-entity and they really do not care if LG players stay or not :) |
| LGMoses08-21-07, 12:39 AM | I think they did it because they'll need the current volunteers such as triad and what not to get LFR off the ground. Also, I heard there was some sort of legal dispute between Gary Gygax and WotC. Does anyone have any info on this? |
| clannagh08-21-07, 12:49 AM | I think they did it because they'll need the current volunteers such as triad and what not to get LFR off the ground. Also, I heard there was some sort of legal dispute between Gary Gygax and WotC. Does anyone have any info on this? If there is a legal dispute you will not hear anything. When Northrop Grumman nearly bankrupted a major software company a few years ago by demanding licence fees for using visual likenesses of 70 year old WWII aircraft (designed and built with US tax payers money in the 1940's) in a computer game part of the out of court settlement was a total blanket on all discussion of what actually went on. |
| Samwise08-21-07, 01:11 AM | Unless something bizarre has happened, the only legal issue between Gary and WotC was settled shortly after WotC bought out TSR, and was an issue with TSR that WotC inherited. I have never heard of anything between Gary and WotC other than WotC asking Gary to write some books, and Gary wanting cash up front plus residuals, and WotC saying never mind. As I understand the settlement of Gary leaving TSR, he does not own the least bit of anything Greyhawk, he merely has a license to use certain terms mentioned in the first two Gord books, as well as the license to use the Gord character. |
| LGMoses08-21-07, 01:14 AM | I heard there was something about him wanting back in or more royalties/creative license or some such and .... well WotC didn't like it. PM me if you know anything you dare not disclose on boards. I think we should be careful on these boards and maybe just end this little line before we get "the hammer". |
| The_Jester08-21-07, 10:59 AM | They brought in the Realms early on to replace Greyhawk to cut back on royalties to Gygax. Now is different. The interesting question was did they kill LG because they needed the LG player base or else FR would fail ? Or is LG just a non-entity and they really do not care if LG players stay or not :) No one ever (EVER) does something like this for a single reason. There are several. 1) Instant volunteers. They can pirate the Circle, Triad, known pool of writers and involved gamers for people to use in the new game. 2) No competition. Even if they launched both at the same time and kept LG going, few would play both and volunteer everywhere. It would hurt the numbers and player base of both games. And anyone with a favorite character in LG would be more reluctant to move to LR. 3) Conversion. It is never easy to switch characters from system to system. How does one convert a L13 wood elf ranger/rogue/order of the bow initiate/deepwood sniper into 4E and LR? What about all his stuff? 4) Shared role. You really only need the one. There's no reason to have both. They'd both be doing pretty much the same thing at the same time. It'd be superfluous. Xen'drik (and whatever will follow) is very different: a different world, different gaming experience, different build-up. LG and LR would just overlap. 5) Popularity. The Realms is just more well known and popular than Greyhawk. It might get some new attention paid to the Living campaign and draw in more people than a renewed Greyhawk. |
| Whitt3708-21-07, 11:27 AM | 1) Instant volunteers. They can pirate the Circle, Triad, known pool of writers and involved gamers for people to use in the new game. Well, not so much. The manner in which this announcement was made certainly doesn't earn a lot of friends in the existing volunteer pool. I suppose they could make some in-roads to the exisiting volunteers if they were to get first dibs on positions in the new campaign, but I'll wager much of the current volunteer base is either (A) in it because of a love for LG or (B) too busy to support the death of LG and the birth of LR at the same time. 2) No competition. 3) Conversion. Very true. LG clobbered the daylights out of what was left of Living City back in the day and the various conversion almost brought LG to its knees. 4) Shared role. You really only need the one. 5) Popularity. The Realms is just more well known and popular than Greyhawk. Agreed from the standpoint of the number of living campaigns, but I disagree that ditching Living Greyhawk for the Realms is the right solution. Consider that if the Realms is, as claimed, already outselling Greyhawk then there is no need to boost Realms sales with a living campaign. The Realms simply don't need it. Living Greyahwk captures a whole new audience that doesn't already play because of the Realms and in many cases doesn't like the uber-high-fantasy nature of the Realms. Furthermore, as has been previously pointed out, the canvas for the Realms is already painted all over. The beauty of Greyhawk as a Living Campaign was that the players hit a virtually blank canvas. That's just not the way the Realms works. I think the real (And not listed) reason for the move to the Realms was: 6. Friction. Greyhawk is not a world of ridiculously high level characters, innkeepers that sneeze fireballs, and dragon sightings being a daily occurance. As a result as WotC tried to ratchet up the level of the magic items and pour in more magical trinkets there was resistance from Greyhawk. They can jam pretty much anything they want into the Forgotten Realms. "What's that a class that can reach into several planes and pull Astral Creatures out of a hat? Yep! We'll allow it!" Makes the Realms a much better marketing tool. Horrible setting for a Living Campaign, but wonderful marketing tool. There was a reason that Living City earned the nickname "Living Silly". That's just the way the Realms are. Silly. |
| The_Jester08-21-07, 01:47 PM | Well, not so much. The manner in which this announcement was made certainly doesn't earn a lot of friends in the existing volunteer pool. I suppose they could make some in-roads to the exisiting volunteers if they were to get first dibs on positions in the new campaign, but I'll wager much of the current volunteer base is either (A) in it because of a love for LG or (B) too busy to support the death of LG and the birth of LR at the same time. If they had tried to do both at once then they'd have to find all new members for the Circle and the Triads which, 9/10, would be people who were rejected for the original positions. Ditto the writers, as all the good ones would have already been committed to LG projects. A large percentage of LR would be people who were newer, disenfranchised with LG, or couldn't break in there. Or it would cut into LG's talent as people fled into LR. As you said, even now the "big" authors are likely going to stick to LG for the final six mods, or make one last try to get their dream core module out. But that's only for the first half of the year (less than that for the writers, who'll be done by March-ish). By having fewer last-mods there are fewer authors needed, so that frees up authors and creative types for LR. For example, I wrote a regional mod this year. But I won't next year because there'll be too many people vying for a spot and there are more invested people. If LG were still going and there was a full compliment of modules I'd be pushing harder for my chance and wouldn't look twice at LR. No time. But because the Triad are writing a couple conclusions and I'm not in the top five list of writers in my region I have no chance which frees me up to take a stab at LR and do some cool stuff for that. It'll be a mess for the first year but in '09, when people have more time, the campaign will really kick off. |
| The_Jester08-21-07, 01:54 PM | I think the real (And not listed) reason for the move to the Realms was: 6. Friction. Greyhawk is not a world of ridiculously high level characters, innkeepers that sneeze fireballs, and dragon sightings being a daily occurance. As a result as WotC tried to ratchet up the level of the magic items and pour in more magical trinkets there was resistance from Greyhawk. They can jam pretty much anything they want into the Forgotten Realms. "What's that a class that can reach into several planes and pull Astral Creatures out of a hat? Yep! We'll allow it!" Makes the Realms a much better marketing tool. Horrible setting for a Living Campaign, but wonderful marketing tool. There was a reason that Living City earned the nickname "Living Silly". That's just the way the Realms are. Silly. Yeah, the high level of magic needed to balance characters and allow play really didn't sit well with the historic view of Greyhawk. Having CLW wands available in every corner store and such. It probably pushed some purists away. But still, the Realms isn't a place of only high levels and wasn't designed to be. It just grew into that when character after character aged and developed and became high level in the modules and the books plus all of the Big Bads that were added and had to be counterbalanced. There's not that many high level mages in the Realms compared to Greyhawk. I think I had a lengthy argument on a Greyhawk board (here or the Other Worlds board) about how a higher percentage of named cannon NPCs were mid to high level (15+) in Greyhawk than the Realms and more mortals ascended to godhood. |
| Whitt3708-21-07, 02:19 PM | But still, the Realms isn't a place of only high levels and wasn't designed to be. It just grew into that when character after character aged and developed and became high level in the modules and the books plus all of the Big Bads that were added and had to be counterbalanced. Exactly the problem... the Realms are already played out before the Living setting even gets off the ground... Greyhawk still had plenty of opporunity to explore un-tapped storylines. The Realms have been hit from every direction and then some. In Greyhawk players were playing in a world they (largely) could create around them. In the Realms players get to walk through someone else's story. Hopefully there won't be a look but don't policy. Back to the point at hand, if the Realms really is as popular as has been noted, then there is no need to use a Living Campaign to promote it. It's just not necessary. Living Eberron would have been a better choice. Pump new blood into a product that's not already selling to a large percentage of the target audience. It just don't make sense to choose the realms if you want to draw new players. |
| KarmaInferno08-21-07, 02:27 PM | Exactly the problem... the Realms are already played out before the Living setting even gets off the ground... Greyhawk still had plenty of opporunity to explore un-tapped storylines. The Realms have been hit from every direction and then some. In Greyhawk players were playing in a world they (largely) could create around them. In the Realms players get to walk through someone else's story. Hopefully there won't be a look but don't policy. Funny, Living City ran for ten years and had plenty of storylines that didn't involve any "big name" NPCs at all. Just because there's been massive amounts of stories written about a setting does not mean there aren't still massive amounts of more stories that can be told. And take five minutes to browse through CanonFire. I challenge the assertion that the Realms are any less of a "blank slate" than Greyhawk was. There's a massive amount of Greyhawk content out there too. -karma |
| Whitt3708-21-07, 02:37 PM | Funny, Living City ran for ten years and had plenty of storylines that didn't involve any "big name" NPCs at all. Odd, I seem to recall all manner of big name NPCs in Living City. Perhaps none of the literary figures (becuase of copyright issues with the authors no doubt) but LC certainly had it's own ridiculous NPCs. Just because there's been massive amounts of stories written about a setting does not mean there aren't still massive amounts of more stories that can be told. True, but the fact that these stories are already being written does have a huge impact. And take five minutes to browse through CanonFire. I challenge the assertion that the Realms are any less of a "blank slate" than Greyhawk was. There's a massive amount of Greyhawk content out there too. And if you take the same five minutes, you'll realize that the material is all in the past. Gone. Done. A foundation for the players to build on and explore. The Realms stuff is still being written on a regular basis and this creates problems. On the few occasions that "canon" material was shoe-horned into LG it created continuity ripples and headaches for the Triad members. Hey everyone, we need Ether Creatures to threaten the entire Oerth. Put them in your Regionals... The same thing happened with Living Force. It's just not as feasible to tie a Living Campaign to someone else's on-going story. It'd be like playing a computer game on someone else's computer and intermittently having them save over your play experience. And further more I still haven't seen an argument that the Realms is going to bring in new players. It may make some existing players thrilled, but I can't see new players being jazzed about the Realms any more then any other Fantasy setting. |
| KarmaInferno08-21-07, 02:52 PM | Wait, weren't people complaining at WotC for NOT putting out Greyhawk content? And most of the content in FR is in the past as well. There's only a few given ongoing storylines being updated with any regularity, and it's not THAT hard to avoid intersecting with those. Most Realms stories affect mostly localized areas, just where the story is taking place, as opposed to planet-wide effects. The last exception, the GodsWar, happened how many years ago? Plus, 4E FR is set ten years later. By definition all the content is now well in the past. Ripe for building on with new stories. There were big NPCs in LC, yes. Mostly created specifically for the campaign. How is that different than NPCs created for Living Greyhawk? You know how many times my PC my Elminster in the near decade I played her? Twice. And once was because Ed Greenwood showed up unannounced in a LC LARP at GenCon one year. In fact, thinking back, nearly all the big, big baddies in LG that I ran across were all pre-existing named NPCs from the books! Iuz, Rary, Evard, etc. My point is that the idea that future ability to write stories in FR is limited because of what has gone before is just downright silly. I think our potential adventure writers are creative enough to fit their own stories in without being constrained by existing works. -karma |
| Whitt3708-21-07, 03:00 PM | Wait, weren't people complaining at WotC for NOT putting out Greyhawk content? Totally different discussion. Plus, 4E FR is set ten years later. By definition all the content is now well in the past. Ripe for building on with new stories.? Perhaps I missed it, but where is this from? My point is that the idea that future ability to write stories in FR is limited because of what has gone before is just downright silly. And also not what I said. The problem is that novels will continue to be written in the Realms that will instantly become canon for the Living environment. And I still haven't seen an argument that the Realms is going to bring in new players any more then any other Fantasy setting. |
| KarmaInferno08-21-07, 03:26 PM | Wait. You want them to run the campaign in a setting they are never going to update or add to? Essentially, one they are never going to make money off of? Think about that for a moment, and you'll understand why I wonder how LG wasn't axed three years ago. And I expect that there will be a large number of 2nd Edition fans who grew up with the Realms as their primary campaign, that left when 3E came out in disgust, to make up a good chunk of the new player base. Same as 3E did for the old 1E players that hated 2nd Edition. -karma |
| Whitt3708-21-07, 03:46 PM | Wait. You want them to run the campaign in a setting they are never going to update or add to? Nope. I want them to run the campaign in a setting they are going to update and add to...based on player actions and the Living storyline. Not a setting that has a couple dozen novels already in the pipe that can't be considered when crafting storylines do to publishing concerns and NDAs. If you believe that WotC made no money because of LG, you're sadly disconnected from reality. I work at an FLGS we could gauge the need to purchase new WotC material based on its usability in Living Greyhawk. If it was LG approved we sold dozens. If it wasn't, we sold effectively none. And I expect that there will be a large number of 2nd Edition fans who grew up with the Realms as their primary campaign, that left when 3E came out in disgust, to make up a good chunk of the new player base. Same as 3E did for the old 1E players that hated 2nd Edition. I don't know anyone that has given up D&D between 2nd and 3rd edition because of the edition change. There may be a few hold-outs between 3 and 3.5 (don't they seem smart now?) The shift from 2nd to 3rd was nowhere near as jarring as the bump from 1st to 2nd edition. I doubt there will be many folks jumping ship between 3rd and 4th in the long-run. I also don't see a bunch of new players queuing up because of the version change or the shift to the Realms. Remember we're talking about new players, not payers new to the Living Campaigns. |
| RanielK08-21-07, 04:07 PM | Exactly the problem... the Realms are already played out before the Living setting even gets off the ground... Greyhawk still had plenty of opporunity to explore un-tapped storylines. The Realms have been hit from every direction and then some. In Greyhawk players were playing in a world they (largely) could create around them. In the Realms players get to walk through someone else's story. Hopefully there won't be a look but don't policy. That is kind of like saying you can't play in Greyhawk, because Mordenkainen and the Circle are there running things. Most of the recent novels are about mid level adventurers getting pulled in to world spanning plots (the Draco rage as one). One is on the Epic level (the Last Mythal is definitely epic). Just because it is Elminster and the Harpers pulling the strings of the characters from the background and not Mordy doesn't mean there won't be plot lines to follow. |
| KarmaInferno08-21-07, 04:16 PM | They sold non-Greyhawk books because of LG. PHB, DMG, MM, "complete" series, etc. They sold those books because it was a Living Campaign, not because it was Living Greyhawk. Same as back in the days of LC, people used to come into the local game store to ask for Living City-approved books. Same as they'll sell non-campaign-specific books because of LFR. And the next campaign. And the next. It's not because of Greyhawk, specifically. They'd be buying those books for any Living Campaign. Which is why I wondered why LG ran for so long without campaign-specific products, or why they kept putting out Realms books when the Living Campaign they WERE running had no relation to the Realms. You have LG over here, which generates no sales of Greyhawk materials, due to not HAVING any Greyhawk materials on sale worth mentioning. You have all the Realms stuff they are producing, which has no supporting Living Campaign attached to it. That makes no business sense. You'd think you would want the Living Campaign that you are supporting to be of the same setting that you are selling the campaign-specific books for. -- You keep bringing up the novels. I just don't see how a dozen or so stories a year about someone else's characters (which is what they are) will necessarily HAVE TO affect what happens elsewhere in the setting. You keep saying they'll ruin everything. I say they won't matter that much, as far as writing for LFR is concerned. It won't be that difficult to write around them, not nearly as hard as you make it out to be. -- The 2nd Edition folks I refer to were folks that were cheesed off that the new campaign was going to be in Greyhawk rather than the Realms. A large number of former LC players I know refused to play LG, went on to other non-RPGA games instead. I strongly suspect the prospect of a new Realms campaign will bring them back, same as what happened when LG opened and all the 1st Edition Greyhawkers that hated the Realms showed up. -karma |
| Whitt3708-21-07, 04:55 PM | They sold those books because it was a Living Campaign, not because it was Living Greyhawk. And they'll continue to sell them because it's a Living Campaign, not because it's Living Faerun. So I guess you're agreeing with me then? You have LG over here, which generates no sales of Greyhawk materials, due to not HAVING any Greyhawk materials on sale worth mentioning. You have all the Realms stuff they are producing, which has no supporting Living Campaign attached to it. That makes no business sense. You'd think you would want the Living Campaign that you are supporting to be of the same setting that you are selling the campaign-specific books for. Because the Realms stuff was clearly selling just fine without the overhead of a Living Campaign. So you have customer A who buys stuff to play in LG and you have customer B who doesn't play LG, but buys even more stuff to play in the Realms (again according to reports that the Realms is outselling everything else). Why would it make sense to eliminate Customer A? Since you've already got Customer B buying your stuff without any effort at all applied. The theory must be then there are a large number of Customer C's out there holding off on playing because the Living Campaign isn't set in the Forgotten Realms. I still find that hard to believe. You keep bringing up the novels. I just don't see how a dozen or so stories a year about someone else's characters (which is what they are) will necessarily HAVE TO affect what happens elsewhere in the setting. It's already been stated that the novels will become canon for the Living Faerun setting. All it takes is one author to declare that the Mayor of location 'X' has been killed and you can terminate storylines. It doesn't take much. You can count on the Living Campaign folks to stay away from the named characters and "busy" locations, but there's no telling when a novelist is going to drop a Thayan tower in your backyard. The 2nd Edition folks I refer to were folks that were cheesed off that the new campaign was going to be in Greyhawk rather than the Realms. A large number of former LC players I know refused to play LG, went on to other non-RPGA games instead. And what version are they playing? 2nd Edition? or 3.5? I wrote for one of those non-RPGA games. It was a 3.5 module. Arcanis is 3.5 as is Kalamar. So, the setting obviously didn't cost WotC a customer there... Rigid enforcement of OGL may have cost them some sales in builder books and expansion material, but that would have been true in any setting. By the way, you didn't mention where the news that the Living Faerun setting was going to be set 10 years in the future came from... That might make a big difference, but I don't think I've seen it anywhere yet. |
| Whitt3708-21-07, 05:03 PM | That is kind of like saying you can't play in Greyhawk, because Mordenkainen and the Circle are there running things. Not so much. It's more like saying that there's too much published material about Faerun for players to enter the campaign without pre-conceived notions about how the world works. There's too much precedence of the major NPCs making cameos and drive-bys. The background and foreground of the setting are already painted into place. The "new-setting smell" for lack of better descriptive is gone. Living Force worked despite it's hiccups because it was an unknown setting for the players to explore within a known universe. Living Greyhawk worked because for all the canon, it was still a relative unknown. I'd warrant most folks still don't know much outside of their meta-region. Living Faerun? Been there. Done that. Got the t-shirt...no really...I have the cert. |
| The_Jester08-21-07, 05:06 PM | So you have customer A who buys stuff to play in LG and you have customer B who doesn't play LG, but buys even more stuff to play in the Realms (again according to reports that the Realms is outselling everything else). Why would it make sense to eliminate Customer A? Since you've already got Customer B buying your stuff without any effort at all applied. The theory must be then there are a large number of Customer C's out there holding off on playing because the Living Campaign isn't set in the Forgotten Realms. I still find that hard to believe. They're hoping to keep Customer B and no change there but get Customer A to buy all the same generic products they already were AND the multiple setting-specific books up until now only Customer B was buying. Sell the same number of Complete ____ and Races of ____ to A & B but get A also buying ______ of Faerun. |
| RanielK08-21-07, 06:56 PM | Living Greyhawk worked because for all the canon, it was still a relative unknown. I'd warrant most folks still don't know much outside of their meta-region. Living Faerun? Been there. Done that. Got the t-shirt...no really...I have the cert. And? Faerun does still have many grey areas as well. The home campaigns I played in all took place in areas which had little to no coverage in 2nd and only a bare mention in 3.X. There were areas left alone by the sourcebooks in order to leave DMs a place to call there own. Vaasa, Damara, Lake of Steam, haven't seen much in the way of either recent supplements or novels for them. So there are novels and sourcebooks for areas in the Realms; none of these precluded play any more than the Greyhawk novels did. |
| Sieylianna08-21-07, 07:17 PM | There's no upside for WotC in supporting both campaigns. 1. They aren't selling Greyhawk content. 2. The generic products will sell to players of either LG or LFR. 3. They can sell FR content to LFR players. 4. They don't have the volunteers to make both campaigns successful. 5. Conversion to 4e is impossible, so they'd be restarting LG anyway. Dropping the LG campaign isn't going to upset people much more than a restart. Ed |
| clannagh08-21-07, 07:33 PM | 5. Conversion to 4e is impossible, so they'd be restarting LG anyway. Dropping the LG campaign isn't going to upset people much more than a restart. Ed From a narrow personal "what will happen to my character " point of view, maybe. You seem to be forgetting the vast amount of work that has gone into creating detailed realistic regional settings. Regions that have come to life in a way that the pre-processed, plastic, teen targetted, marketing oriented stuff from WoTC is definitely not. In other D&D campaigns people tend to contrive roleplay excuses to justify what they want the character to do. In LG the characters naturally develop a life of their own because of that rich background and you often hear things like "I dont care if its optimal, no Perrender would consider doing that." The LG campaign world was the closest I have ever seen to a campaign world coming to life. Part of the reason it could do that was there was far less of the plastic artificial commercialised background material. In some ways it comes down to integrity. the plastic artificial commercialised background material is what on the surface the market people are trying to sell. What they miss is that LG was successful becasue it wasnt there in any great force. |
| KarmaInferno08-22-07, 10:08 AM | And they'll continue to sell them because it's a Living Campaign, not because it's Living Faerun. So I guess you're agreeing with me then? Because the Realms stuff was clearly selling just fine without the overhead of a Living Campaign. So you have customer A who buys stuff to play in LG and you have customer B who doesn't play LG, but buys even more stuff to play in the Realms (again according to reports that the Realms is outselling everything else). Why would it make sense to eliminate Customer A? Since you've already got Customer B buying your stuff without any effort at all applied. The theory must be then there are a large number of Customer C's out there holding off on playing because the Living Campaign isn't set in the Forgotten Realms. I still find that hard to believe. Ideally, you want to spend money on customers that are buying product related to those expenditures. Why spend resources on LG when you could have spent them on a campaign for a product line that you were actually producing stuff? That's that part that didn't make sense. Customer A and Customer B in your example would have both bought the 'core' non-setting books anyhow. However, Customer A also buys campaign-specific books for Setting A. You make more money off Customer A. There are no campaign-specific books for Setting B, which means less money from Customer B. Which customer makes more sense to spend resources running a Living Campaign for? Alternately, why not produce campaign-specific books for the other setting? It's the "produce setting books for one customer set but spend resources running a living campaign for a different customer set" that didn't make sense to me. Either run the Living campaign for the folks you are producing setting books for, or produce setting books for the Living campaign you are running. It's already been stated that the novels will become canon for the Living Faerun setting. All it takes is one author to declare that the Mayor of location 'X' has been killed and you can terminate storylines. It doesn't take much. You can count on the Living Campaign folks to stay away from the named characters and "busy" locations, but there's no telling when a novelist is going to drop a Thayan tower in your backyard. It has also mentioned that the FR dev team will be working closely with the LFR triads (or whatever they will be called) to coordinate major events. So there shouldn't be sudden "surprises" happening. And what version are they playing? 2nd Edition? or 3.5? I wrote for one of those non-RPGA games. It was a 3.5 module. Arcanis is 3.5 as is Kalamar. So, the setting obviously didn't cost WotC a customer there... Rigid enforcement of OGL may have cost them some sales in builder books and expansion material, but that would have been true in any setting. The point is they stopped playing RPGA, rather than going on to LG. Which means they also were often not buying the Realms books, cos there was no supporting Living campaign. This was more of a 3.5 issue than a 3.0, as the first couple of years of 3.0 LC was still running, albeit on life support. They may be coming back to RPGA gaming now that the Realms have a new living campaign. By the way, you didn't mention where the news that the Living Faerun setting was going to be set 10 years in the future came from... Took some digging, but it came from the "Secrets of the Forgotten Realms" seminar, where it was mentioned that the date of the new setting book was the Year of Blue Fire, 1385 DR. Which is about ten years after the last 3.5 book. -karma |
| MichaelAhlf08-22-07, 10:53 AM | It has also mentioned that the FR dev team will be working closely with the LFR triads (or whatever they will be called) to coordinate major events. So there shouldn't be sudden "surprises" happening. What WILL happen is that anyone who wants to write a module for their region will be vetted now to make sure they've bought the proper quota of new novels, to ensure that they don't violate Novelist Canon. I can just see it now: WotC will declare that Author X is never allowed to write modules again because a module they wrote caused problems for a novelist. Either that, or modules half in development will get nixed or constantly sent back for rewrite because of a novel that's still in draft stages yet. Who are they going to abuse in the rewrite process - the authors, who theoretically can sue under contract law if they feel they're being strung along or hampered, or the volunteers who have no such right? Michael |
| KarmaInferno08-22-07, 11:22 AM | Do you wear a tinfoil hat too? -karma |
| Whitt3708-22-07, 11:25 AM | Why spend resources on LG when you could have spent them on a campaign for a product line that you were actually producing stuff? That's that part that didn't make sense. Because you can capture additional market. I wouldn't have purchased beyond what I absolutely needed to play a Living Campaign set in the Realms. Every one of my LC characters were all straight PHB characters. I look at WotC settings in a Pepsi, Mountain Dew, Diet Pepsi frame of reference. I prefer Diet Pepsi to Diet Coke, I'll pick Mountain Dew over any of them, and I flat out do not like Pepsi. WotC thinking they are going to gain additional players by going to the Realms is like Pepsi thinking they could sell more soda by discontinuing Diet Pepsi. It's illogical. I reiterate that I am not saying that Greyhawk is the best setting. Just that using more players as a justification to move to the Realms is spurious. Customer A and Customer B in your example would have both bought the 'core' non-setting books anyhow. However, Customer A also buys campaign-specific books for Setting A. You make more money off Customer A. But according to WotC marketing, Customer A is already buying the setting books without the Living Campaign. I further hold that Customer B may very well stop buying all of the expansion books as WotC has just risked alienating them with this announcement. There are no campaign-specific books for Setting B, which means less money from Customer B. Not necessarily true. A Hobbyist may have "X" dollars to spend on their hobby. They may spend slightly more then that or slightly less then that based on product availability, but in general they spend "X" dollars on each visit to the FLGS. In the case of the Greyhawk players, this generally meant picking up the newest Complete Whatsis and a couple of Boosters of D&D Minis. For the FR folks they picked up the Complete Whatsis, the FR book dujour and then drooled over the minis they couldn't afford. Both spent 'X' dollars. It's just not possible to track how much of the D&D Mini market was driven by the Living Greyhawk Campaign, while it's relatively easy to track purchases of Realms specific material. It has also mentioned that the FR dev team will be working closely with the LFR triads (or whatever they will be called) to coordinate major events. So there shouldn't be sudden "surprises" happening. The circle was also working closely with the LG triads, yet Oozemasters, Kobolds and other monster-race PCs (Centaurs anyone) still cracked the fabric of LG with significant regularity. The point is they stopped playing RPGA, rather than going on to LG. Which means they also were often not buying the Realms books, cos there was no supporting Living campaign. WotC's marketing data would seem to disagree with you. The claim remains that the realms is far outselling any other setting. Even ignoring the fact that there isn't much in the way of Greyhawk material available. Clearly the loss of a Living setting could not have had too adverse an impact on WotC's sales. If the loss of the LC crowd did have a big effect, then it makes even less sense to ditch the LG settings as now we are talking about a significant loss of players due to a setting change. A loss that would seem to be about to repeat itself. Took some digging, but it came from the "Secrets of the Forgotten Realms" seminar, where it was mentioned that the date of the new setting book was the Year of Blue Fire, 1385 DR. Which is about ten years after the last 3.5 book. If that is the case, then at least the potential will exist for the campaign to have some room to breath. I still don't see how it's any more viable then the Mountain Dew - Greyhawk or Diet Pepsi - Eberron settings... |
| MichaelAhlf08-22-07, 11:27 AM | Do you wear a tinfoil hat too? "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it." And we have plenty of WotC history to learn from. |
| The_Jester08-22-07, 07:27 PM | 5. Conversion to 4e is impossible, so they'd be restarting LG anyway. Dropping the LG campaign isn't going to upset people much more than a restart. From a narrow personal "what will happen to my character " point of view, maybe. You seem to be forgetting the vast amount of work that has gone into creating detailed realistic regional settings. If it came down to just than one reason than yes, the vast amount of work would win out. But that was the last of several much more important decisions all of which weighed against Greyhawk. "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it." And we have plenty of WotC history to learn from. There is likely no single reason but many, many reasons all working in conjunction INCLUDING past history from the attempted conversions of LC from 2E to 3E and even LG itself in the much more mild 3.0 to 3.5; history works both ways. Other history includes favoring FR over Greyhawk and that success and the problem of having multiple competing worlds fighting for limited money. I was fairly ambivalent to LR and upset about LG's death but with all the doomsaying and negativity I'm beginning to feel the urge to dig in my heels and throw myself into LR just to prove people wrong... |
| Stafir Ortnev08-22-07, 09:55 PM | If it came down to just than one reason than yes, the vast amount of work would win out. But that was the last of several much more important decisions all of which weighed against Greyhawk. There is likely no single reason but many, many reasons all working in conjunction INCLUDING past history from the attempted conversions of LC from 2E to 3E and even LG itself in the much more mild 3.0 to 3.5; history works both ways. Other history includes favoring FR over Greyhawk and that success and the problem of having multiple competing worlds fighting for limited money. I was fairly ambivalent to LR and upset about LG's death but with all the doomsaying and negativity I'm beginning to feel the urge to dig in my heels and throw myself into LR just to prove people wrong... Dangit you're making me want to be out there and throwing around insane acusations and talking about the world ending due to LR... Mainly because what LR needs more than anything..are people to play. People who will put time into it..just like people put time into LG. If it dosn't have a good group of people behind it it'll never be fun to play..and I'd like to have a fun to play campain. |
| WotC_Tulach08-23-07, 03:28 AM | Well, not so much. The manner in which this announcement was made certainly doesn't earn a lot of friends in the existing volunteer pool. I suppose they could make some in-roads to the exisiting volunteers if they were to get first dibs on positions in the new campaign, but I'll wager much of the current volunteer base is either (A) in it because of a love for LG or (B) too busy to support the death of LG and the birth of LR at the same time. Well, since I'm the one that asked to be contacted, I can tell you that I have many, many existing volunteers asking to be a part of the Living Forgotten Realms campaign. The outpouring of qualified volunteers has already exceeded all my expectations in the first few days, and I haven't really even made it a completely "open call". There's so many qualified people that want to be a part of this, that it will be harder than LG ever had it to select from among them. We will definitely be able to fill all the positions with highly-qualified applicants. Most folks actually like the Living system. While they've grown to appreciate and love the Greyhawk setting, the fact that the new campaign remains a Living system is a good reason to give it a shot. We know that Living Greyhawk was a success, but it was due to the nature of the campaign; had we pursued another campaign model (for example, an adventure-path style) I would speculate that it wouldn't be close to as successful as it is today. There's no denying that some players really were sold on the idea that Living Greyhawk was the Greyhawk setting. However, the Living system and the abandonment of membership/ordering fees for the RPGA ensured its success. |
| LGMoses08-23-07, 03:54 AM | I agree with Chris. The fact that LG was a "Living" system was what attracted me to it in the first place. At the time I heard about it I was just finishing some Forgotten Realms novels. Through force of will I got myself out of Forgotten Realms and into the Greyhawk mythos after becoming a player/herald. I then found it annoying that I had to convince people to give the Greyhawk setting a shot. Now, everyone will be in that plays. The FR holdouts and the old 'Hawkers that I convinced to play LG. Since LF is going to be a "living" campaign that will attract a ton of people. My only concern is verifying all the canon for each adventure so that adventures will be plentiful and put out in a timely manner. With all of these volunteers there should be more adventures available every year and for every region if the region system is kept(Alabama calls dibs on Rashemen for me Chris, ;) I have high hopes for LR. |
| Madfox1108-23-07, 04:58 AM | There are many reasons for the end of LG and the start of a new campaign and to set it in the Forgotten Realms. I lament the end of the campaign I have been involved in as a vollunteer since before it officially started, first as a triad member and later as a Circle member. I do understand those reasons, and I agree with most of them. The fact is that there is no way the campaign could continue into a new edition and some serious reforms on an organizational level (the campaign as it stands is too big a drain on vollunteer resources). Forgotten Realms is much much more popular than Greyhawk. Finally, a change in setting can be very refreshing. Personally I will do my utmost best to make the ending of this campaign as great as possible, but that does not change the fact that I am also positive about the new campaign and with me at least several other members of the LG team. Pieter Sleijpen RPGA Living Greyhawk Circle Member The Splintered Suns |
| jtrain980108-25-07, 10:01 AM | I see that with the new 4.0 that they will get new players, but now the flip side. All the old players that have purchased all the old 3.5 books are now stuck with paperweights. And after investing that amount of money into a system and then told all those books are now useless in the new system will tweak alot of people. From what I read it will be a new PHB's every year to update the rules and new DMG's for themes. I don't think I will be buying all these books again. I will just borrow someone elses. |
| Stafir Ortnev08-25-07, 11:54 AM | Why does everyone keep saying the old books are 'paperweights'? Come on people, the text in those books do not magically disapear. Every idea, every statistic, every single bit of that book will still work exactly the same after 4e as it does right now. They won't magically erase themselves, they won't suddenly be unable to open. You will still be able to open them and use them to play games. The only big change is that you won't be able to use them to play in RPGA games...the books still work. |
| Marcia_S08-25-07, 12:21 PM | Why does everyone keep saying the old books are 'paperweights'? Come on people, the text in those books do not magically disappear. Every idea, every statistic, every single bit of that book will still work exactly the same after 4e as it does right now. They won't magically erase themselves, they won't suddenly be unable to open. You will still be able to open them and use them to play games. The only big change is that you won't be able to use them to play in RPGA games...the books still work. For those of us who are die-hard organized play players, not having a use for our bookshelf of 3.5 books IS a big deal. Since I've been with RPGA for the past 5 years, I no longer have a "home campaign", as the RPGA and LG had MORE than enough content and play opportunity to keep me busy. Even LKoK, which used all the WotC products is being cut loose and forced back to just the SRD. So, yeah, for me, anyway, the 3.5 books are useless dinosaurs once 4e comes out. My thought is that WotC may alienate and lose 10% of its player base with the conversion, but will probably gain 50% or more in the end. Several years ago one of the steak chains changed from where you order from a menu of steaks to where everything was on the buffet line. They lost some die-hard steak fans, but gained many times that number in people who loved the buffet. We're really the only ones losing by this, but aren't a large enough concern to the projected bottom line for them to worry about alienating. Marcia |
| MadVlad08-25-07, 06:07 PM | Why does everyone keep saying the old books are 'paperweights'? Come on people, the text in those books do not magically disapear. Every idea, every statistic, every single bit of that book will still work exactly the same after 4e as it does right now. They won't magically erase themselves, they won't suddenly be unable to open. You will still be able to open them and use them to play games. The only big change is that you won't be able to use them to play in RPGA games...the books still work. I still have books from 1st, 2nd, and 3rd edition. They are paperweights, I haven't opened them in a decade.... |
| jtrain980108-26-07, 07:02 PM | Why does everyone keep saying the old books are 'paperweights'? Come on people, the text in those books do not magically disapear. Every idea, every statistic, every single bit of that book will still work exactly the same after 4e as it does right now. They won't magically erase themselves, they won't suddenly be unable to open. You will still be able to open them and use them to play games. The only big change is that you won't be able to use them to play in RPGA games...the books still work. First off nice avatar. My Pretty Pony rocks. *snicker* I remember watching the cartoon after GI joe. (there was nothing else to watch) Let me clairify the people that I am talking about are the ones that I know personally and alot of others I know not-personally ,but that are of the same mindset. The only reason they bought all the 3.5 books is so they could use them for RPGA LG. Therefore they do not play any home games outside of the LG world due to many reasons like work,family,wife points, etc... so for them the books are just that, a "paperweight." On the flip side there are alot of other people that I know that only play Home games only and don't like RPGA due to the restrictive rules within LG. |
| clannagh08-26-07, 07:44 PM | Why does everyone keep saying the old books are 'paperweights'? Come on people, the text in those books do not magically disapear. Every idea, every statistic, every single bit of that book will still work exactly the same after 4e as it does right now. They won't magically erase themselves, they won't suddenly be unable to open. You will still be able to open them and use them to play games. The only big change is that you won't be able to use them to play in RPGA games...the books still work. uh huh, ... like the 9 or 10 at least 3.0 books that i never open. ... and the dozens of books from previous editions of warhammer and warhammer 40K not to mention specialty games like Warmaster and Mordheim and battlefleet gothic and older RPG's like Gamma World and the shelf full of old computer games that "still play as good as new" I really do not want even more stuff cluttering my house. I have already given all my 3.5 stuff (including roughly 20 books) away to someone that is going to be playing the campaign through to its finish. |
| KarmaInferno08-27-07, 01:36 AM | Is it WotC's fault you haven't been playing anything but LG? -karma |
| clannagh08-27-07, 02:18 AM | Is it WotC's fault you haven't been playing anything but LG? -karma the book discussion was not about LG .. it got side tracked onto 3.5 edition and the continual need of game companies to produce something "new" locally we did have a "world's greatest dungeon" running in 3.0 for a while in tandem with the 3.5 .. but it got rather confusing playing two such closely related games systems at once |