A few questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

A few questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Calinon
08-19-05, 12:07 AM First, while DM'ing, it has become apparent that stat blocked NPC villains (or potential opponents) all seem to have 8 or lower charisma, including the leaders and clerics. A vast majority of non-basic-monster NPC's have improved initiative. Any character whose class is not INT based seems to have an 8 (or lower) intelligence, even leaders.

To me, this just promotes min/maxing of PC's. Is this standard practice in modules, or are the last three I've DM'd just oddities?

Second, several characters have currently (or have had) curses which have stretched over two campaign years. They gain a curse that cannot be removed by an NPC cleric (who is always a level too low), and no module has been written to counter the curse. In most cases, they are debilitating in one form or another (no magical healing, no favors able to be gained, etc). Is there not a time frame that is in place to allow for the curse to finally be removed? What happens if the person that is DM'ing the game with the curse removal is the one with the cursed character? Is he forced to remain cursed forever?

Lastly, we, as a group, have been running into absolutely horribly written modules. Plots that counter each other from one sentence to the next, plot hooks that no person in their right mind would answer (our keep was attacked by an army lead by a dragon! Please, go save my daughter from it! A group of 2nd level adventurers should have no problem where my army of 300 failed!). I must mention spelling, misuse of words and a tendancy to make NPC names long and unpronouncable as minor nuiscances. Some modules appear to be written by people out for vengeance against the player base in general (You fail your swim check, you are drowning, your body falls on a triple tiered trap, you are struck by a maximized 10d6 lightning bolt, a block of granite falls on you, silence surrounds you, make your saves). Some writers seem truly disturbed and we've run into a couple of modules with text so graphically violent and disturbing it should never have made it to print.

I am just curious what the guidelines are for writing modules, who reviews them and who do I send a potential module to for review if I were to write one?
zigspatty
08-19-05, 10:34 AM To me, this just promotes min/maxing of PC's. Is this standard practice in modules, or are the last three I've DM'd just oddities?

Second, several characters have currently (or have had) curses which have stretched over two campaign years. ...

Lastly, we, as a group, have been running into absolutely horribly written modules.....

I am just curious what the guidelines are for writing modules, who reviews them and who do I send a potential module to for review if I were to write one?

It DOES seem that many NPCs are often tricked out for a single encounter, a fact which I have long lamented. Partly this is because many of them exist for the sole purpose of that encounter. So an ambush will have rogues with max ranks in hide, move silently, spot, listen, and tumble, but no search, disable device or open locks skills. The exception is often continuing villains who will have more rounded skills to justify their ongoing role in the plot. This kinda depends upon the witer - some are very good about building realistic opponents, while others are simply trying to provide a suitable challenge.

There seem to be a lot of curses about as well. But I've yet to come across a curse that had no way to remove it. Once a character is cursed, it's important to try and play that PC in later installments of the series which might remove the curse. In addition, I've met numerous folks participating in interactives in the hope that their PC can make the acquaintance of a high level caster who can remove thier curse. (Currently, there are some 17th level casters about with access to Wish or Miracle that are quite willing to cast them in behalf of other PCs.)

If you have a concern with Core scenarios, you should send your comments to Core Supremo Creighton Broadhurst (creighton@greyworks.co.uk) who is responsible for the production and editing of Cores. If you've a concern with a metaregional, direct them to the Circle Member in charge of your meta-region. If it concerns a regional, direct it to your triad.

If you want to write, contact your triad. Usually they'll ask you to submit an outline of your scenario idea (mine has a specific form they want used) and once that's approved, then you can write it up in the official templated format. Your scenario will be subject to edit and review first from your triad, and then from your Circle member. Core and metaregional authors have usually already written for their local region. Each regions has 8 scenarios, 4 intro scenarios, and numerous interactive events, teasers, and other campaign organizations that need authors, so your writing skills will likely be welcomed.

I wish you luck in your endeavors!

Patty
kjenks
08-19-05, 10:38 AM First, while DM'ing, it has become apparent that stat blocked NPC villains (or potential opponents) all seem to have 8 or lower charisma, including the leaders and clerics. A vast majority of non-basic-monster NPC's have improved initiative. Any character whose class is not INT based seems to have an 8 (or lower) intelligence, even leaders.

To me, this just promotes min/maxing of PC's. Is this standard practice in modules, or are the last three I've DM'd just oddities?

That's standard practice. With a 25 point build, there isn't much room.

Some NPCs -- hopefully just a few -- will have 28 point builds.

Second, several characters have currently (or have had) curses which have stretched over two campaign years. They gain a curse that cannot be removed by an NPC cleric (who is always a level too low), and no module has been written to counter the curse. In most cases, they are debilitating in one form or another (no magical healing, no favors able to be gained, etc). Is there not a time frame that is in place to allow for the curse to finally be removed? What happens if the person that is DM'ing the game with the curse removal is the one with the cursed character? Is he forced to remain cursed forever?

In my experience, the best way to get this kind of curse lifted is by attending an Interactive. There will almost always be a high level cleric PC in the room. There will almost always be an opportunity for your character to interact with the high level cleric. After you negotiate with the player, contact a DM for the Interactive and have any spellcasting documented on your AR.

Lastly, we, as a group, have been running into absolutely horribly written modules. Plots that counter each other from one sentence to the next, plot hooks that no person in their right mind would answer (our keep was attacked by an army lead by a dragon! Please, go save my daughter from it! A group of 2nd level adventurers should have no problem where my army of 300 failed!). I must mention spelling, misuse of words and a tendancy to make NPC names long and unpronouncable as minor nuiscances. Some modules appear to be written by people out for vengeance against the player base in general (You fail your swim check, you are drowning, your body falls on a triple tiered trap, you are struck by a maximized 10d6 lightning bolt, a block of granite falls on you, silence surrounds you, make your saves). Some writers seem truly disturbed and we've run into a couple of modules with text so graphically violent and disturbing it should never have made it to print.

I am just curious what the guidelines are for writing modules, who reviews them and who do I send a potential module to for review if I were to write one?

You can find the guidelines for writing scenarios here:

http://www.theocracyofthepale.com/downloads/writers_pack.zip

These documents include a little bit about who reviews them.

Where to send a scenario for review depends on the type of scenario. For a regional, including Intro, Interactive, Special Mission, contact your local Triad; the Point of Contact (POC) is listed in the LGCS. For a meta-regional scenario, contact your meta-region's coordinator, also listed in the LGCS. For a Core scenario, contact Creighton Broadhurst, again listed in the LGCS.
Samwise
08-19-05, 10:55 AM I commented to my local Triad about NPC stats awhile ago, noting that not using the elite was making them significantly tougher than usual. But as long as players get to do the same thing, and more, I doubt there will be a change. Also note that critters now get 75% of a HD in hp, rather than the standard half, ostensibly to account for PCs being built on 28 pts. This is also a bit more unbalancing than it might otherwise seem.

Quality in modules, particularly Cores, has been an issue since the campaign began. I continue to believe this is mostly caused by so many campaign staff members (Triad, Circle, or HQ staff) writing modules, and effectively being above their own review process.
And I've been increasingly disturbed by some of the language and situations in modules. Moral dilemmas is one thing, but they should come with appropriate cautions for players of alignment restricted classes. And mature situations can be pushed too far, too easily, particularly in a campaign for a group that promotes participation by kids.

Now I do think Creighton has been doing a better job with the Cores recently. Several have actually been quite good. But the problems still need to be addressed. And as noted, the best thing to do is communicate this to people in an appropriate manner. I think they listen a lot more than is immediately apparent, and making the effort is worthwhile.
redgamer
08-20-05, 06:56 PM NPCs are one trick ponies because if they weren't they would have become adventurers like the PCs. The reason why PCs are hired over other is usually because the PCs are vastly more flexible than an NPC and can handle a unique job. The NPCs however know for instance they can hide better than they can pick a lock. That is why out of the thousands of potential NPCs the author could have picked the ones that find themselves setting an ambush are good at hiding. Well rounded NPC are and should be rare or else PCs would have too much competition for work. An NPC who has skill focus knowledge (religion) is less likely to set an ambush than an NPC that has skill focus (hide)
AngusSmith
08-29-05, 02:55 PM It DOES seem that many NPCs are often tricked out for a single encounter, a fact which I have long lamented. Partly this is because many of them exist for the sole purpose of that encounter. So an ambush will have rogues with max ranks in hide, move silently, spot, listen, and tumble, but no search, disable device or open locks skills. The exception is often continuing villains who will have more rounded skills to justify their ongoing role in the plot. This kinda depends upon the witer - some are very good about building realistic opponents, while others are simply trying to provide a suitable challenge.

Then again not every rogue is the lockpicking type. I've got a couple rogue PCs with minimal or no ranks in disable device and open locks, but max ranks in hide, move silently, spot, listen and tumble. It all depends on the concept.

Angus
TimRat
08-31-05, 04:52 PM Like some have mentioned before contact your local triad to see if they have need of an author and extend the helping hand. even if its for help on an interactive/intro mod that would be a great help to them as i know many are looking for authors.

a lot of modules use the elite array but sometimes they dont take into account the CR increase plus some authors tend ot try and trick out the NPCs by adding a level of warrior and such which dont count towards the CR either. also nonassociated class levels sometimes help.
Southernskies
08-31-05, 10:25 PM a lot of modules use the elite array but sometimes they dont take into account the CR increase plus some authors tend ot try and trick out the NPCs by adding a level of warrior and such which dont count towards the CR either. also nonassociated class levels sometimes help.

I have sometimes skipped the CR increase for NPC levels myself (usually by accident). When they ONLY have NPC levels (and no Monster HD or class levels) it doesn't appear to make any difference. It makes a difference when you start mixing.

Writers should be adding at least two levels of NPC classes when they mix with PC classes. "Tweaking" the CR in that way is not really fair to the players (I treat PC class levels as Monster levels when calculating CR, much fairer to the players).

A much larger problem IMO is when writers (and TRIADs of all people) start ignoring Core Rules in their encounters. Ever seen a non-spellcaster use Contingency (teleport) or a Bard6/Rog3 cast Greater Teleport without scrolls or UMD rolls? Then there are the Spirited Charging ghosts; without a mount you can attack.
smerwin29
09-01-05, 09:57 AM What people need to understand is that some writers--I would even be bold as to say most writers--are not looking to cheat or tweak the system to hurt the players. The CR/EL system is flawed at best. There are EL 9 encounters that pale in comparison to EL 6 encounters. Just because a module author uses an NPC class on an enemy does not always mean they are trying to cheat the system. The enemy might have been a little too weak without the class, but a little too strong if you added a normal PC class. In the hands of a competent designer and writer, these idiosyncracies of the rules are tools: and a fine chisel, I mean, not a sledgehammer. Good writers and game developers will look at an encounter from all angles, putting just as many opportunities into an encouter as there are hurdles.

Granted, I have seen some encounters that were outlandish and made moreso by tricks like this, situation, etc.

Most authors would love to hear feedback and are usually easily reached via email or various Internet news groups or bulletin boards. If you see something strange in a mod, contact them and ask about it. But before you really criticize them, do them the courtesy of reading the module. Your play experience and their module are often two very different things. Judge quality, setting, time of day, other players, moods, distractions, surroundings, player experience and about 50 other elements can affect the play experience as much as the module. Make sure your complaints are valid before you let fly. Again, most writers welcome the opportunity to talk about the craft of module writing and will be more than happy to walk a player through the process of how an encounter was created.

Respectfully submitted,

Shawn
solbergb
09-01-05, 10:56 AM Then again not every rogue is the lockpicking type. I've got a couple rogue PCs with minimal or no ranks in disable device and open locks, but max ranks in hide, move silently, spot, listen and tumble. It all depends on the concept.

Angus

Yeah. If the guy is a burgler, he's gonna have the trapfinding stuff, plus just enough stealth skills to get in and out. He's also likely not optomized to do straight up fighting.

If the guy makes his living by mugging people in dark alleys, it is really important that he gets the drop on his enemy, so he'd be maxed in stealth and alertness. He's also probably better in a scrap, since he encounters more violence in his work.

People who do ambushes routinely quite reasonably might have improved init.

Somebody who lives in his lab probably has other stuff (might be very combat capable when he does get to go, if his lab involves summoning demons or building experimental golems, but imp init isn't going to be a priority)

Frankly I'm not a huge fan of imp init from an optomization standpoint. I usually think of it as a feat that thank goodness wasn't spent on something actually dangerous, like shock trooper.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Calinon 08-19-05, 12:07 AM	First, while DM'ing, it has become apparent that stat blocked NPC villains (or potential opponents) all seem to have 8 or lower charisma, including the leaders and clerics. A vast majority of non-basic-monster NPC's have improved initiative. Any character whose class is not INT based seems to have an 8 (or lower) intelligence, even leaders. To me, this just promotes min/maxing of PC's. Is this standard practice in modules, or are the last three I've DM'd just oddities? Second, several characters have currently (or have had) curses which have stretched over two campaign years. They gain a curse that cannot be removed by an NPC cleric (who is always a level too low), and no module has been written to counter the curse. In most cases, they are debilitating in one form or another (no magical healing, no favors able to be gained, etc). Is there not a time frame that is in place to allow for the curse to finally be removed? What happens if the person that is DM'ing the game with the curse removal is the one with the cursed character? Is he forced to remain cursed forever? Lastly, we, as a group, have been running into absolutely horribly written modules. Plots that counter each other from one sentence to the next, plot hooks that no person in their right mind would answer (our keep was attacked by an army lead by a dragon! Please, go save my daughter from it! A group of 2nd level adventurers should have no problem where my army of 300 failed!). I must mention spelling, misuse of words and a tendancy to make NPC names long and unpronouncable as minor nuiscances. Some modules appear to be written by people out for vengeance against the player base in general (You fail your swim check, you are drowning, your body falls on a triple tiered trap, you are struck by a maximized 10d6 lightning bolt, a block of granite falls on you, silence surrounds you, make your saves). Some writers seem truly disturbed and we've run into a couple of modules with text so graphically violent and disturbing it should never have made it to print. I am just curious what the guidelines are for writing modules, who reviews them and who do I send a potential module to for review if I were to write one?
zigspatty 08-19-05, 10:34 AM	To me, this just promotes min/maxing of PC's. Is this standard practice in modules, or are the last three I've DM'd just oddities? Second, several characters have currently (or have had) curses which have stretched over two campaign years. ... Lastly, we, as a group, have been running into absolutely horribly written modules..... I am just curious what the guidelines are for writing modules, who reviews them and who do I send a potential module to for review if I were to write one? It DOES seem that many NPCs are often tricked out for a single encounter, a fact which I have long lamented. Partly this is because many of them exist for the sole purpose of that encounter. So an ambush will have rogues with max ranks in hide, move silently, spot, listen, and tumble, but no search, disable device or open locks skills. The exception is often continuing villains who will have more rounded skills to justify their ongoing role in the plot. This kinda depends upon the witer - some are very good about building realistic opponents, while others are simply trying to provide a suitable challenge. There seem to be a lot of curses about as well. But I've yet to come across a curse that had no way to remove it. Once a character is cursed, it's important to try and play that PC in later installments of the series which might remove the curse. In addition, I've met numerous folks participating in interactives in the hope that their PC can make the acquaintance of a high level caster who can remove thier curse. (Currently, there are some 17th level casters about with access to Wish or Miracle that are quite willing to cast them in behalf of other PCs.) If you have a concern with Core scenarios, you should send your comments to Core Supremo Creighton Broadhurst (creighton@greyworks.co.uk) who is responsible for the production and editing of Cores. If you've a concern with a metaregional, direct them to the Circle Member in charge of your meta-region. If it concerns a regional, direct it to your triad. If you want to write, contact your triad. Usually they'll ask you to submit an outline of your scenario idea (mine has a specific form they want used) and once that's approved, then you can write it up in the official templated format. Your scenario will be subject to edit and review first from your triad, and then from your Circle member. Core and metaregional authors have usually already written for their local region. Each regions has 8 scenarios, 4 intro scenarios, and numerous interactive events, teasers, and other campaign organizations that need authors, so your writing skills will likely be welcomed. I wish you luck in your endeavors! Patty
kjenks 08-19-05, 10:38 AM	First, while DM'ing, it has become apparent that stat blocked NPC villains (or potential opponents) all seem to have 8 or lower charisma, including the leaders and clerics. A vast majority of non-basic-monster NPC's have improved initiative. Any character whose class is not INT based seems to have an 8 (or lower) intelligence, even leaders. To me, this just promotes min/maxing of PC's. Is this standard practice in modules, or are the last three I've DM'd just oddities? That's standard practice. With a 25 point build, there isn't much room. Some NPCs -- hopefully just a few -- will have 28 point builds. Second, several characters have currently (or have had) curses which have stretched over two campaign years. They gain a curse that cannot be removed by an NPC cleric (who is always a level too low), and no module has been written to counter the curse. In most cases, they are debilitating in one form or another (no magical healing, no favors able to be gained, etc). Is there not a time frame that is in place to allow for the curse to finally be removed? What happens if the person that is DM'ing the game with the curse removal is the one with the cursed character? Is he forced to remain cursed forever? In my experience, the best way to get this kind of curse lifted is by attending an Interactive. There will almost always be a high level cleric PC in the room. There will almost always be an opportunity for your character to interact with the high level cleric. After you negotiate with the player, contact a DM for the Interactive and have any spellcasting documented on your AR. Lastly, we, as a group, have been running into absolutely horribly written modules. Plots that counter each other from one sentence to the next, plot hooks that no person in their right mind would answer (our keep was attacked by an army lead by a dragon! Please, go save my daughter from it! A group of 2nd level adventurers should have no problem where my army of 300 failed!). I must mention spelling, misuse of words and a tendancy to make NPC names long and unpronouncable as minor nuiscances. Some modules appear to be written by people out for vengeance against the player base in general (You fail your swim check, you are drowning, your body falls on a triple tiered trap, you are struck by a maximized 10d6 lightning bolt, a block of granite falls on you, silence surrounds you, make your saves). Some writers seem truly disturbed and we've run into a couple of modules with text so graphically violent and disturbing it should never have made it to print. I am just curious what the guidelines are for writing modules, who reviews them and who do I send a potential module to for review if I were to write one? You can find the guidelines for writing scenarios here: http://www.theocracyofthepale.com/downloads/writers_pack.zip These documents include a little bit about who reviews them. Where to send a scenario for review depends on the type of scenario. For a regional, including Intro, Interactive, Special Mission, contact your local Triad; the Point of Contact (POC) is listed in the LGCS. For a meta-regional scenario, contact your meta-region's coordinator, also listed in the LGCS. For a Core scenario, contact Creighton Broadhurst, again listed in the LGCS.
Samwise 08-19-05, 10:55 AM	I commented to my local Triad about NPC stats awhile ago, noting that not using the elite was making them significantly tougher than usual. But as long as players get to do the same thing, and more, I doubt there will be a change. Also note that critters now get 75% of a HD in hp, rather than the standard half, ostensibly to account for PCs being built on 28 pts. This is also a bit more unbalancing than it might otherwise seem. Quality in modules, particularly Cores, has been an issue since the campaign began. I continue to believe this is mostly caused by so many campaign staff members (Triad, Circle, or HQ staff) writing modules, and effectively being above their own review process. And I've been increasingly disturbed by some of the language and situations in modules. Moral dilemmas is one thing, but they should come with appropriate cautions for players of alignment restricted classes. And mature situations can be pushed too far, too easily, particularly in a campaign for a group that promotes participation by kids. Now I do think Creighton has been doing a better job with the Cores recently. Several have actually been quite good. But the problems still need to be addressed. And as noted, the best thing to do is communicate this to people in an appropriate manner. I think they listen a lot more than is immediately apparent, and making the effort is worthwhile.
redgamer 08-20-05, 06:56 PM	NPCs are one trick ponies because if they weren't they would have become adventurers like the PCs. The reason why PCs are hired over other is usually because the PCs are vastly more flexible than an NPC and can handle a unique job. The NPCs however know for instance they can hide better than they can pick a lock. That is why out of the thousands of potential NPCs the author could have picked the ones that find themselves setting an ambush are good at hiding. Well rounded NPC are and should be rare or else PCs would have too much competition for work. An NPC who has skill focus knowledge (religion) is less likely to set an ambush than an NPC that has skill focus (hide)
AngusSmith 08-29-05, 02:55 PM	It DOES seem that many NPCs are often tricked out for a single encounter, a fact which I have long lamented. Partly this is because many of them exist for the sole purpose of that encounter. So an ambush will have rogues with max ranks in hide, move silently, spot, listen, and tumble, but no search, disable device or open locks skills. The exception is often continuing villains who will have more rounded skills to justify their ongoing role in the plot. This kinda depends upon the witer - some are very good about building realistic opponents, while others are simply trying to provide a suitable challenge. Then again not every rogue is the lockpicking type. I've got a couple rogue PCs with minimal or no ranks in disable device and open locks, but max ranks in hide, move silently, spot, listen and tumble. It all depends on the concept. Angus
TimRat 08-31-05, 04:52 PM	Like some have mentioned before contact your local triad to see if they have need of an author and extend the helping hand. even if its for help on an interactive/intro mod that would be a great help to them as i know many are looking for authors. a lot of modules use the elite array but sometimes they dont take into account the CR increase plus some authors tend ot try and trick out the NPCs by adding a level of warrior and such which dont count towards the CR either. also nonassociated class levels sometimes help.
Southernskies 08-31-05, 10:25 PM	a lot of modules use the elite array but sometimes they dont take into account the CR increase plus some authors tend ot try and trick out the NPCs by adding a level of warrior and such which dont count towards the CR either. also nonassociated class levels sometimes help. I have sometimes skipped the CR increase for NPC levels myself (usually by accident). When they ONLY have NPC levels (and no Monster HD or class levels) it doesn't appear to make any difference. It makes a difference when you start mixing. Writers should be adding at least two levels of NPC classes when they mix with PC classes. "Tweaking" the CR in that way is not really fair to the players (I treat PC class levels as Monster levels when calculating CR, much fairer to the players). A much larger problem IMO is when writers (and TRIADs of all people) start ignoring Core Rules in their encounters. Ever seen a non-spellcaster use Contingency (teleport) or a Bard6/Rog3 cast Greater Teleport without scrolls or UMD rolls? Then there are the Spirited Charging ghosts; without a mount you can attack.
smerwin29 09-01-05, 09:57 AM	What people need to understand is that some writers--I would even be bold as to say most writers--are not looking to cheat or tweak the system to hurt the players. The CR/EL system is flawed at best. There are EL 9 encounters that pale in comparison to EL 6 encounters. Just because a module author uses an NPC class on an enemy does not always mean they are trying to cheat the system. The enemy might have been a little too weak without the class, but a little too strong if you added a normal PC class. In the hands of a competent designer and writer, these idiosyncracies of the rules are tools: and a fine chisel, I mean, not a sledgehammer. Good writers and game developers will look at an encounter from all angles, putting just as many opportunities into an encouter as there are hurdles. Granted, I have seen some encounters that were outlandish and made moreso by tricks like this, situation, etc. Most authors would love to hear feedback and are usually easily reached via email or various Internet news groups or bulletin boards. If you see something strange in a mod, contact them and ask about it. But before you really criticize them, do them the courtesy of reading the module. Your play experience and their module are often two very different things. Judge quality, setting, time of day, other players, moods, distractions, surroundings, player experience and about 50 other elements can affect the play experience as much as the module. Make sure your complaints are valid before you let fly. Again, most writers welcome the opportunity to talk about the craft of module writing and will be more than happy to walk a player through the process of how an encounter was created. Respectfully submitted, Shawn
solbergb 09-01-05, 10:56 AM	Then again not every rogue is the lockpicking type. I've got a couple rogue PCs with minimal or no ranks in disable device and open locks, but max ranks in hide, move silently, spot, listen and tumble. It all depends on the concept. Angus Yeah. If the guy is a burgler, he's gonna have the trapfinding stuff, plus just enough stealth skills to get in and out. He's also likely not optomized to do straight up fighting. If the guy makes his living by mugging people in dark alleys, it is really important that he gets the drop on his enemy, so he'd be maxed in stealth and alertness. He's also probably better in a scrap, since he encounters more violence in his work. People who do ambushes routinely quite reasonably might have improved init. Somebody who lives in his lab probably has other stuff (might be very combat capable when he does get to go, if his lab involves summoning demons or building experimental golems, but imp init isn't going to be a priority) Frankly I'm not a huge fan of imp init from an optomization standpoint. I usually think of it as a feat that thank goodness wasn't spent on something actually dangerous, like shock trooper.