Post/Author/DateTime	Post
coltharpc 03-03-05, 07:54 AM	Question: If you are in a grapple with a monster, can you retrieve a potion from your pouch while in that grapple w/o during a successful check? I ask because I was DMing a game where a bear was grappling my NPC....I pointed out two references to the fact....I just wanted to get your opinion... Activate a Magic Item: You can activate a magic item, as long as the item doesn’t require a spell completion trigger. You don’t need to make a grapple check to activate the item. Retrieve a Spell Component: You can produce a spell component from your pouch while grappling by using a full-round action. Doing so does not require a successful grapple check. The NPC had a full-round action since it was her turn....the players said since a potion was not a spell component, she had to do a successful check. Please post your opinion with revelant references. Thank you.
kjenks 03-03-05, 09:51 AM	You already have the references. Your actions are restricted while grappling. You can't get out a potion while grappling. You could drink one if you already have it in your hand, but the grapple rules don't list "retrieve an item" as a permissible action.
King Kashue 03-03-05, 02:34 PM	Retreiving a potion is normally a move action, drinking it a standard action... If getting something from your spell component pouch, normally a free action, becomes a full round action due to the grapple, what does the move and standard of getting and drinking a potion become? And for analagous actions, drawing a light weapon in a grapple (normally a move action, as retreiving a potion is), is a move action with a successful grapple check. Is there any reason retrieving a potion should be different?...
kjenks 03-03-05, 10:18 PM	Is there any reason retrieving a potion should be different?... It's different because the rules say it's different -- specifically, because the rules list what actions you may take while grappling and "retrieve an item" is not one of those actions. You're perfectly free to make up whatever rules you want in your campaign, but coltharpc asked for an opinion and references. The rules don't let you retrieve a potion while grappling. Period. Why? I dunno. Maybe it's to prevent the exact maneuver coltharpc refers to.
oroborous 03-03-05, 10:49 PM	Do the rules say you aren't allowed to, or is there just no specific reference to drawing a potion? The SRD doesn't have anything in it about being unable to draw potions specifically, so does that mean you can't do it? I think it is quite possible, if you follow the logical conclusions of the rules. First, lets assume that you have a vial on you where you could retrieve it while your arms were restricted. You can retrieve a light weapon in the same manner, so why not a vial? Just make the grapple check. A vial isn't any good at holding liquid without a stopper, so make another grapple check to remove the stopper. Make a grapple check to bring the vial to your mouth and quaff it. I'd say if more than a round passes between the time that the vial is uncorked and the time it is quaffed that there is a chance that the potion would be spilled in the commotion. Perhaps a cumulative DC5 Reflex for each round? That is a variant, though, and we all know what LG thinks of variants. Maybe the potion should just be lost if it can't be quaffed in one round :thinks: Of course you could be constricted or dead in 3 rounds, so I wouldn't waste the time. I'd be escaping if that were possible, because if you could win 3 grapple checks with an opponent why aren't you bear hugging him to death or pinning him while your compadres are beating the living snot out of him? :dragon:
King Kashue 03-04-05, 01:57 AM	It's different because the rules say it's different -- specifically, because the rules list what actions you may take while grappling and "retrieve an item" is not one of those actions. You're perfectly free to make up whatever rules you want in your campaign, but coltharpc asked for an opinion and references. The rules don't let you retrieve a potion while grappling. Period. Why? I dunno. Maybe it's to prevent the exact maneuver coltharpc refers to. His question was asking if a check was necessary or not, not whether it could be done at all...He was saying his NPC didn't need to make a check, the players were saying his NPC needed to make a successful grapple check in order to get a potion...I was answering the question he actually asked, rather than addressing something else...As a judge, he already had decided that it was a reasonable action, so I was working from that premise... The Grapple rules list actions you can perform...It says "you can perform any of the following actions" it doesn't say "you can only perform these actions"...And the rules don't explicitly mention anything about limitations on actions other than attacking, defending, and moving...Therefore, all other actions fall under the realm of judicial decision, and thus that is what I addressed (proceeding from his judgement that getting a potion was acceptable and wondering how to work it out)...
kjenks 03-04-05, 06:19 AM	Here are some actions that one might use in combat. Attack (ranged) Aid another Bull rush Drink a potion or apply an oil Light a torch with a tindertwig Make a dying friend stable Overrun Read a scroll Sunder Load a hand crossbow or light crossbow Mount a horse or dismount Pick up an item Ready or loose a shield Retrieve a stored item Deliver coup de grace Escape from a net Extinguish flames Light a torch Load a heavy or repeating crossbow Lock or unlock weapon in locked gauntlet Prepare to throw splash weapon Use skill that takes 1 round Trip an opponent Open a door Which of those actions are allowed while grappling? None of them. The actions which ARE allowed while grappling are specifically limited. They are: Activate a Magic Item Attack Your Opponent Cast a Spell Damage Your Opponent Draw a Light Weapon Escape from Grapple Move Retrieve a Spell Component Pin Your Opponent Break Another’s Pin Use Opponent’s Weapon If You’re Pinning an Opponent Damage Your Opponent Prevent a pinned opponent from speaking. Use a disarm action to remove or grab away a well secured object worn by a pinned opponent Release a pinned character If You’re Pinned by an Opponent Try to escape the pin Cast a spell This is a Living Greyhawk discussion board. In a home campaign, the DM is free to make up his own rules, but not in LG. Even in a home campaign, it's unfair to the PCs for the DM to make up different rules for the NPCs, especially in the middle of combat. This isn't an unclear rule or a circumstance where the rules don't cover the situation well, where the DM should make a judgement call. The DM made a bad call. If I were Senior GM at that event and if the player came to me, I'd overturn the DM's ruling.
King Kashue 03-04-05, 03:25 PM	It's very nice you read the rules that way, except that is not what they literally say... That is a perfectly valid interpretation, and I wouldn't disagree with you were you to make it, but it is not the only possible interpretation.. The rules say: "While you're grappling, your ability to attack others and defend yourself is limited" "You can't move normally while grappled" and "When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions" It doesn't say ONLY the following actions...It specificially limits attacking, defending, and moving...No other specific limitations are listed... You can interpret that final statement to be a limitation, but that is not what the language says...In the context of the rules, it seems a valid interpretation (as I said above), however do not claim the language is clearly in favor of your interpretation, because it is not...in fact, the technical meaning of the language indicates NO restrictions other than those on attacking, defending, and movement.... I am not saying that making up rules for his NPCs in the middle of a game is good (and where you got that strawman is beyond me), that has nothing to do with the issue at all, I am in fact assuming equitable application of the rules in every case (since it wasn't mentioned there wasn't)... I am saying that the rules technically (and the technical, literal meaning is what is essential in LG) leave the question of other actions in a grapple open to judgement, and I was providing the requested assistance in that judgement...
oroborous 03-04-05, 10:11 PM	My personal opinion is that it if it isn't listed as something you can't do then you should be able to attempt it. Since there is no concrete ruling maybe someone should ask Sage Advice or the Co6 to say something about it. For example: The PHB doesn't list mapmaking as a profession or craft under those skills, but does that mean there are no mapmakers in the whole of Oerth? The simple point is that not every action could be forseen by the authors, and using the rules we have we can draw logical conclusions about which actions are possible. Just because it isn't written down in a specific reference doesn't mean that it is impossible.