Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tahldrehlian 04-16-06, 11:29 AM	Hello. I am making this build based around a concept more than min/maxing. I was curious what some people thought about it. The concept is one of an Elven "playboy." A charmer, treats swordplay as a game, adventuring is just the only thing that holds his interest... Grey Elf STR 12 DEX 16 CON 12 INT 16 WIS 8 CHA 12 1- Rogue - Combat Expertise 2- Swashbuckler - Weapon Finesse (Bonus feat) 3- Swashbuckler - Improved Feint 4- Swashbuckler 5- Rogue 6- Rogue - Skill Focus (Bluff) 7- Rogue 8- Rogue 9- Rogue - Deft Strike 10- Rogue 11- Exemplar 12- Rogue - Staggering Strike 13- Rogue 14- Rogue 15- Rogue - Arterial Strike The Rogue special ability I havent decided on, Either Crippling Strike or Improved Evasion. The Exemplar is there to provide +4 to bluff as well as the ability to take 10 on Bluff for feinting, tumbling, spotting for Deft Strike and one other skill. So at 11th level, with 14 ranks of Bluff, +3 for skill focus, +4 for exemplar and a +1 cha mod (minimum)... taking ten is a DC 32 Sense Motive check to avoid the feint. It's not uber in any sense of the word... but I thought it'd be interesting.
Mommy was an Orc 04-16-06, 12:27 PM	The general problem with Swashbuckler in nearly pure Rogue builds is that while it grants you Weapon Finesse for one level, you're only doing an extra +3 damage with specific melee weapons for the next 2 - when you get +1d6 of Sneak Damage for an additional 2 levels of Rogue. Sure, it works when you can't get the drop on your opponent, but is it really worth giving up the 8 skill points and faster Rogue progression? I'm also not very fond of Improved Feint - it means you're doing single attacks in exchange for taking full attacks. With basically Rogue hit points and a 12 Con, that's a serious recipe for a quick death. Finally, you get a 20% XP penalty(I know that's not a big concern in LG, but it tends to get odd looks) Have you considered Champion of Corellon? While it requires a bunch of feats, it gets to add Dex to certain special weapons much as Swashbuckler does with Int.
Tahldrehlian 04-16-06, 12:44 PM	I have looked at CoC... It has way too many feat requirements to be a useful rogue build... A combination Swashbuckler/Fighter maybe.
paigeoliver 04-16-06, 01:33 PM	Well you can't sneak attack EVERYTHING, so I think the few levels of swashbuckler for extra damage that works ALL the time is a good trade off for less sneak attack damage. I'd pick improved evasion over crippling strike. Mainly because I'd think most of the times you managed to crippling strike someone they are probably going to be dead in a round or two anyway, giving that crippling strike minimal effect. That is one of those abilities that is nasty on bad guy rogues, but not so hot on good guy ones. I'm also not a big fan of the feint either.
Mommy was an Orc 04-16-06, 01:42 PM	CoC is possible to do and be a Rogue. Examples: Half-Elf Rogue 10/Swashbuckler 1/Fighter 2/CoC 2 Grey Elf Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 2/CoC 2/4 levels in useful Rogue PrCs Grey Elf Rogue 9/Fighter 4/CoC 2
Mommy was an Orc 04-16-06, 01:54 PM	Well you can't sneak attack EVERYTHING, so I think the few levels of swashbuckler for extra damage that works ALL the time is a good trade off for less sneak attack damage. The problem is that the extra damage doesn't work all the time - it only works with finessable melee weapons and things that can be sneak attacked. i.e. doesn't do anything to constructs/undead, doesn't work with ranged weapons, which are often useful when you go first for delivering a sneak attack, but not exposing yourself back to a full attack.
clik_ml 04-17-06, 06:41 AM	If you are planning on feinting, then you might be interested in an Invisible Blade. Tis a 5-level prestige class from Complete Warrior. Gives some sneak attack, and most notably gives the ability to feint as a free action. It gives Int to AC if not wearing armor too. I'm sure many folks here, myself included, could whip up a quick build for one if you were interested. Drawbacks: it is limited (see how your local triad handles initation, Verbobonc lets you set up a special mission 1-on-1 battle, so it isn't much fuss for my region, dunno bout yers), its sneak attack only works with daggers, and it requires Far Shot, Point Blank Shot, and Weapon Focus Dagger as feats (and ranged feats on a melee-ish rogue are costly). If daggers (instead of swords) are a deal-breaker, then this one doesn't really work out for ya- but since you're into feinting it seemed germane. Critiques of yer build: It is awfully hard to justify taking those extra 2 levels of swashbuckler and probably Exemplar too. You will likely be able to find a lot of other places to pick up bonuses to bluff here and there (circlet of persuasion, metaorgs), and will have your feint be so high that Exemplar is just a big waste, likewise your tumble will be so high at that point that taking 10 will be overkill. If you wanted, 10 Rogue/1 Swash would get you all your feats still, and skill mastery just as fast as Exemplar, and you'll have an extra sneak attack die (which is about equivalent to the Swash's Int damage) to boot. I can't recall if Spymaster gives bonuses to bluff, but I'd expect it to... again that PrC is limited (though I've seen access for it). A fine way to pimp your bluff would be with a buffing cohort... possibilities are endless there. It will make high APL tables easier to form, but you won't always get to bring him along. As for the 20% exp penalty. It's LG- so unless you are having only 1 character or playing him with the same folks all the time, then that's actually an advantage.
ranagrande 04-17-06, 07:01 AM	Drawbacks: it is limited (see how your local triad handles initation, Verbobonc lets you set up a special mission 1-on-1 battle, so it isn't much fuss for my region, dunno bout yers) The Invisible Blade is a core prestige class according to the LGCS. The requirement does need you to get a special mission from your Triad, but you shouldn't have too much trouble with that.
Tahldrehlian 04-17-06, 08:15 AM	I do like invisible blade, it offers some nice stuff throughout it's five levels.... however it's limited to daggers. I know the different between a d6 and a d4 isn't that big of a deal, but it doesnt follow the concept of treating swordplay as a game, always toying with opponents.... Thank you for the suggestion though, I will read it a little more and see if it's better for me than swashbuckler... (Another reason I was taking 3 levels in swashbuckler is it's a d10 hp... 7 hp per level as opposed to 5...)
SgtHulka 04-17-06, 09:26 AM	Some observations on improved feint: 1) You don't get a second attack as a rogue until 8th level, anyway. 2) The way around that is two-weapon fighting, which costs only one feat instead of two. 3) Combat Expertise, the "wasted feat" for Improved Feint, I've found to be incredibly useful for a Rogue, almost a "must have" feat. 4) Improved Feint doesn't just add sneak attack damage, it also increases your chance to hit by lowering your target's armor class. 5) Even with a 10 Charisma, so long as you max out bluff, you will have a huge advantage against almost anything you feint (no combat enemies ever max out sense motive). 6) Two-weapon fighting is clearly superior if you're able to easily flank opponents. 7) Improved feint is clearly superior if you end up having to fight one-on-one. I've found this to be the case more often than I expected in LG, considering you usually have 6 man tables I thought I'd always be able to flank. That's not the case at all. 8) Feinting really helps your defense. Move action: Feint. If you succeed, attack. If you fail, attack defensively with full combat expertise. With 5 ranks in tumble, your AC will be very high. 9) Improved Feint is essential to a representation of a duelist type character. It and improved disarm are the two feats that really mimic cinematic-style dueling, so it looks like it would be a must have for your role-play concept. I'm hardly a "pro", but I do like your all rougue/1 level of Swashbuckler for weapon finesse build.
Tahldrehlian 04-17-06, 01:59 PM	So, SgtHulka... would you say the level in Exemplar is wasted? What about the Insightful Strike and +1 Grace (improved reflex save) given by the other two levels of Swashbuckler... Two weapon fighting I have considered... and I can easily lose things like... Arterial strike for it. What is everyone's opinion on Deft Strike? Standard action to Spot check vs target's armor class... succeed and they don't get Armor or Natural armor bonuses... useful in the "prep" round of combat...
Sieylianna 04-17-06, 04:52 PM	What is everyone's opinion on Deft Strike? Standard action to Spot check vs target's armor class... succeed and they don't get Armor or Natural armor bonuses... useful in the "prep" round of combat... You're doing this in preference to casting a spell or making an attack. I think it's pretty much a waste of an action. Ed
Tahldrehlian 04-17-06, 06:21 PM	Perhaps losing Deft Strike for... Two Weapon Fighting? Or Improved Crit on the Rapier?
Lomiat 04-17-06, 06:32 PM	I do like invisible blade, it offers some nice stuff throughout it's five levels.... however it's limited to daggers. I know the different between a d6 and a d4 isn't that big of a deal, but it doesnt follow the concept of treating swordplay as a game, always toying with opponents.... Personally, I think the Invisible Blade is exactly the type of character you're trying to build. "Swordplay" as a game, No. But **melee combat** as a game? Oh, yes, certainly. As for the build? With you gray elf, it would look quite similar. Str 12, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 8, Cha 12 1-Swashbuckler. Weapon Finesse, Two-weapon Fighting 2-Rogue 3-Rogue. Combat Expertise 4-Fighter. Weapon Focus (dagger) 5-Fighter. Point-blank Shot 6-Rogue. Far Shot 7-Invisible Blade. 8-Invisible Blade. 9-Invisible Blade. Skill Focus (bluff) 10-Invisible Blade. 11-Invisible Blade. 12-Rogue. Improved Two-weapon Fighting 13-Rogue 14-Rogue 15-Rogue. Greater Two-weapon Fighting Of course, if you want the Invisible Blade INT bonus to AC, don't worry about armor as soon as you get access to a Pearl of Power to have the wizard cast Mage Armor on you. Staggering Strike is a great feat, two, and might be worth substituting at level 12 or 15 and getting rid of Greater Two-weapon Fighting.
PaulH 04-17-06, 09:00 PM	Hi Why does your Playboy have to be a Rogue? Why not a Bard? Bard 3/Swashbuckler 3/Dervish .............? (Dervish Good BAB, Ref/Will saves, 4 Skills/lvl) From CW This way your Elf can display his/her mastery of dance, incorporating finesse with the blade. Very Errol Flynn! If you need 2 Wpn style, then drop 1 lvl Bard for Fighter. Your Int mod is even added to damage - not to mention 'swift' spell "Critical Strike". (Effectively gain D6 sneak damage, plus 'keen' on weapons used, with +4 to confirm crits. Your Scimitars become 'Light Weapons', (Wpn Finesse, Insightful Strike, 2 Wpn style, etc). You can even still use Bard Song when 'dancing'! Grey Elf STR 12 DEX 16 CON 12 INT 16 WIS 8 CHA 12 1: Swashbuckler, Wpn Finesse; Dodge 2: Swashbuckler, Grace+1; 3: Swashbuckler, Insightful Strike; Mobility 4: Bard, 5: Bard, 6: Fighter, Combat Expertise, Wpn Focus Scimitar 7: Fighter, 2 Wpn Style 8: Dervish, +1 AC, Dervish Dance 1/Day, Movement Mastery, Slashing Blades BAB +7/2 Base Saves Fort 6 Ref 5 Will 3 HP 56 Scimitar 2Wpn Style: +9/+9/+3, Damage: D6+1 (Derv)+3(Swash)+1 (Str) Critical Strike allows Crits on 15+, +4 to confirm, +1D6 'sneak' damage. Almost tempted to use this myself! Cheers Paul H
Tahldrehlian 04-17-06, 09:06 PM	Paul, I do like that build very much... it's very tempting. And on top of that, I've never played a bard. ;)
PaulH 04-17-06, 10:41 PM	Hi Yep - does look good, doesn't it! Only prob is where do you go from here? Dervish has a few OK abilities, but nothing that jumps out & grabs you. Bard makes a nice skill monkey, and has some very nice spells at 2nd Lvl (Sonic Blade, Invis, Alter Self, Summon Swarm, Fox's Cunning [for extra damge re Int Bonus], Glitterdust & on & on & on.......) Only problem is xp penalty. (or is that good - you get to play character longer)! :D Cheers Paul H PS Don't forget flambouyant hat with enormous feather!! :)
Tahldrehlian 04-17-06, 10:44 PM	Well, the hat is a must. It's the latest fashion in Greyhawk... :)
Jay_Ibero_911 04-21-06, 12:39 AM	Race:Human Alignment: STR-14 (6) DEX-14 (6) CON-14 (6) INT-14 (6) WIS-8 (0) CHA-12 (4) Lv1(Scout)Dodge, Mobility Lv2(Fighter)Weapon Focus(Scimitar) Lv3(Fighter)Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm Lv4(Bard)+1 DEX Lv5(Bard) Lv6(Bard)Two-Weapon Fighting Lv7(Bard) Lv8(Dervish)+1 DEX Lv9(Dervish)Improved Two-Weapon Fighting Lv10(Dervish) Lv11(Dervish) Lv12(Dervish)Dual Strike, +1 DEX Lv13(Dervish) Lv14(Dervish) Lv15(Dervish)Greater Two-Weapon Fighting On the topic of bard dervishes...This build gets song and dance, plus skirmish while dancing, sure it's not a rogue, but it can do alot. Dual strike let's you at least make 2 attacks while moving when you aren't dancing. The downside is it's human, not elf like you want. The reason for bard 4 is the bab, and to get 3 1st level spells per day. That way you should be able to inspirational boost in every combat. Helps you and the party You'll need gloves of dex forimproved and greater two weapon fighting, or you could sub it out for something else. This build does get the improved disarm too, so you can dance around and disarm an entire enemy group if you're lucky...
Itsa_Trika 05-02-06, 10:23 PM	Well you can't sneak attack EVERYTHING, so I think the few levels of swashbuckler for extra damage that works ALL the time is a good trade off for less sneak attack damage. I'd pick improved evasion over crippling strike. Mainly because I'd think most of the times you managed to crippling strike someone they are probably going to be dead in a round or two anyway, giving that crippling strike minimal effect. That is one of those abilities that is nasty on bad guy rogues, but not so hot on good guy ones. I'm also not a big fan of the feint either. Improved Evasion is one of the poorer choices for a high level rogue. Although it seems practical on paper, if a rogue of that level is failing his reflex saves, he deserves to take the damage. Crippling strike can drastically change the direction of combat, especially versus high strength monsters. I'd trade out Exemplar and just take Skill Master which accomplishes the same thing and doesn't interrupt the rogue progression. I'd also increase the intelligence and decrease the strength. A str bonus is inconsequential when your damage output is based on sneak attack dice. Take a pin and stab the person for 1+8d6 points of damage and that extra point doesn't make much of a difference.
Tahldrehlian 05-02-06, 10:46 PM	The problem with Rogue is that 12th level doesnt get you anything, that's why I picked Exemplar to fill it in. Another possibility is 1 level of sorcerer and pick up the Spell "Insightful Feint"... +10 to feint check and it's a free action if you have improved feint.
Ojoxsofeta 05-03-06, 07:49 PM	5) Even with a 10 Charisma, so long as you max out bluff, you will have a huge advantage against almost anything you feint (no combat enemies ever max out sense motive). It should be pointed out that your opponent gets to use his BAB on the sense motive check (as well as any wisdom bonus). Granted, assuming you have max bluff and a charisma of 10, you're three above anything that has a full base attack bonus, but once you factor in any wisdom, it's still hardly an automatic thing.