Post/Author/DateTime	Post
_m_ 01-29-07, 05:26 PM	I was absolutely horrified when i saw a post in the lgcs recomendations thread to have an age limit of 14 at cons. i cant remember the name of the poster, they know who they are. Now, i may not be the yougest of individuals (still, 19 is younger than most of you), but i absolutely dissagree with this idea. Look, for example, at wes's kids. 2 of them had retired characters before they were 14!!! You cant put a hard age cap on maturity. Admitedly, in my local area, most of the under 14's are anoying little brats, but that dosent mean that they all are. Id much rather be sitting at the table with amy's cleric or druid than with some self obsessed imature 40 year old. any1 with me, or are you all anti-children people. (on an unrelated and kinda funny note, in a comedy skit i have on my ipod: "I don't get people who say they like children... its like saying "i like you.... for a little while" " )
Bob_the_Theurge 01-29-07, 05:33 PM	I was absolutely horrified when i saw a post in the lgcs recomendations thread to have an age limit of 14 at cons. i cant remember the name of the poster, they know who they are. Now, i may not be the yougest of individuals (still, 19 is younger than most of you), but i absolutely dissagree with this idea. Look, for example, at wes's kids. 2 of them had retired characters before they were 14!!! You cant put a hard age cap on maturity. Admitedly, in my local area, most of the under 14's are anoying little brats, but that dosent mean that they all are. Id much rather be sitting at the table with amy's cleric or druid than with some self obsessed imature 40 year old. any1 with me, or are you all anti-children people. (on an unrelated and kinda funny note, in a comedy skit i have on my ipod: "I don't get people who say they like children... its like saying "i like you.... for a little while" " ) I've seen lots of kids at cons. Some were well behaved. Some were brats. Some were normally well behaved, but were having a "bad day." I don't support a hard age cap, but I do support con organizers telling you "we reserve the right to tell you to go home if your kid is too disruptive." And for many cons, I think I'd also have a corrolary that kids - at the convention organizer's discretion, of course - should be placed at the same table as their parents (or at the table of a family friend who's willing to vouch for and watch over the kid) in case of discipline issues.
bitznarf 01-29-07, 05:48 PM	:bump:
RedKnightofKet 01-29-07, 06:06 PM	Well, to be fair, it's easier to like children as a general rule than it is to like people as a general rule... And m, could you PM me the link for that skit? Sounds interesting... :) snip... (on an unrelated and kinda funny note, in a comedy skit i have on my ipod: "I don't get people who say they like children... its like saying "i like you.... for a little while" " )
clannagh 01-29-07, 06:27 PM	You cant put a hard age cap on maturity. Admitedly, in my local area, most of the under 14's are anoying little brats, but that dosent mean that they all are. Id much rather be sitting at the table with amy's cleric or druid than with some self obsessed imature 40 year old. any1 with me, or are you all anti-children people. yah its you college age kids that are the problem :P and yay to Selenna (spelling?)at Canberra Summer Fun over the weekend for doing a fantastic job of running a ludicrously complicated new mod compounded by extreme Alvin insanity and a time limit .. just because your age 15 doesnt mean you can't be really really good at stuff.
Lomiat 01-29-07, 06:50 PM	Our monthly game days at a local gaming store draw nearly as many people as our Triad's conventions, mostly because the days are free and populated largely by parents who bring their kids. The kids in the 6 to 12 year-old age bracket aren't necessarily experts at running their characters, but they do well enough when DMs and other players coach them a little. So far, the game days have been successful and fun, and if anyone said, "No, you can't bring kids," everything would get shot right to .... a bad place. There are annoying kids at cons, of course, but I've seen more annoying older people--just a function of population and proportion.
pedr 01-29-07, 08:03 PM	I don't support a hard age cap, but I do support con organizers telling you "we reserve the right to tell you to go home if your kid is too disruptive." You've got that already. All RPGA members, even the five-year-old ones, have to abide by the RPGA floor rules. If you're disruptive you can get a Caution. Or a Warning which must be reported to the RPGA. If you're severely disruptive you can be excluded from the play area. All of this is in the Senior GM's control, besides whatever controls the owners/operators of the venue have at their disposal.
zigspatty 01-29-07, 09:37 PM	I rather enjoy playing with kids, who generally seem to bring a level of excitement to the game that is rare in adults. They tend to be better about accepting DM calls than many adults (too many of whom seem to love arguing the rules). And, unlike adults, if they get too far out of sorts about something, they'll usually have a parent or responsible adult that will take charge of them. I've been very favorably impressed by many of the young players with whom I've gamed and would hate to have missed the chance solely because of their young age. Annoying players can be any age. Setting an age limit wouldn't necessarily help avoid problem players. Patty
_m_ 01-29-07, 09:51 PM	You've got that already. All RPGA members, even the five-year-old ones, have to abide by the RPGA floor rules. If you're disruptive you can get a Caution. Or a Warning which must be reported to the RPGA. If you're severely disruptive you can be excluded from the play area. All of this is in the Senior GM's control, besides whatever controls the owners/operators of the venue have at their disposal. im waiting for the fairly offensive guy who made the original recomendation to come support his opinion.
kenobi65 01-29-07, 10:01 PM	im waiting for the fairly offensive guy who made the original recomendation to come support his opinion. Well, if it's the guy I'm thinking of, there was a lot of discussion in another thread on the issue, and it came down to him having a big issue with two kids playing in his area who both were, in his opinion, fundamentally playing cohorts of their fathers' PCs. And, since both of the dads were heavily involved in RPGA, he didn't feel that there was anything he could do about it (he said that "complain to the Senior GM" wasn't an option because one of the dads *was* the Senior GM).
_m_ 01-29-07, 10:04 PM	Well, if it's the guy I'm thinking of, there was a lot of discussion in another thread on the issue, and it came down to him having a big issue with two kids playing in his area who both were, in his opinion, fundamentally playing cohorts of their fathers' PCs. And, since both of the dads were heavily involved in RPGA, he didn't feel that there was anything he could do about it (he said that "complain to the Senior GM" wasn't an option because one of the dads *was* the Senior GM). i recall clannagh talking about that, but it wasnt him that i made this post in reference to. and also, another :cheer: to selena (again, we have no idea how to spell ur name darlin) for running a pretty shockingly put together mod really well, given that the party composition for it kind of sucked, and alvin was being even more of a nut than usual.... on a totally and completely unrelated note, i FREAKIN HATE dimensional locks.
ranagrande 01-30-07, 12:51 AM	I too would be against any kind of age limit. The best Warmage I've ever seen was played by a nine year-old boy, and at a convention I went to last month, a pair of ten year-old girls playing a druid and a barbarian were very effective both in combat and in roleplay.
Morgen 01-30-07, 01:12 AM	Out of all the kids we've had at the cons here I've attended, I've never seen a problem with any of the children there. I've had problems with some of the adults, but the thing I see the kids having trouble with is getting into the story of the mod. Though I suppose having an older sibling as the judge doens't help it. Brothers and sisters seem to pick on each other, weird.
Mortepierre 01-30-07, 03:19 AM	I could hardly support such a stance given I introduced my 8 years old nephew to the game recently. That said, while kids bring generally a level of fun to the game that most adults have forgotten about, I've found it difficult to.. ah.. "involve" them as much as adults in the "philosophical" issues of mods if they aren't at least 12 years old. Yes, kids mature a lot faster today than in my days (gee, why do I feel old suddenly..) but there are still subjects which I wouldn't be comfy about debating with them if they are below a certain age threshold (which I freely admit can vary from one person to the next). Most LG mods are straightforward enough that the question doesn't come up but some do offer choices which only "adults" (and I use this word in the broader sense possible) can really handle. By this, I mean that - to kids - the world is usually seen either in white or black. The shades of grey appear when they grow older (and more disillusioned, one might say..). Disclaimer: I'm NOT saying there aren't any kids out there able to handle such problem, only that many won't simply for lack of experience.
SYB 01-30-07, 11:54 AM	I am not the one who posted the original suggestion. Nor would I currently support such a policy. But, experience with kids at conventions (including myself as a kid) makes me understand where the guy is coming from. Honestly, when I was 14 (heck, when I was 16), I had no place at an RPGA table (or any convention table for that matter). I was childish and rude and didn't know where the line was. I pushed beyond the realm of good taste, never realizing what I was doing. I just didn't have the maturity level yet. Do all kids do this? No. But, from experience, I would say that when it comes to being immature, while both kids and adults are immature at some times, kids are more likely to be the problem and usually are more problematic when they are immature. Conventions (much more than game days) tend to exacerbate the situation. Kids are overstimulated and over-excited at conventions. Parents often leave them to their own devices. The lack of supervision and energized environments often makes the "mild brats" into terrors. My worst RPGA moments fall into three categories: bad DMs, badly written modules, and bratty kids. I have done a LOT of convention games over the years, and sadly, the third problem has been the most prevalent. It isn't always a problem. I have definitely sat at tables where the kids were the best players by far. But, I'd say that at about one table each convention, I sit with a brat that makes the game much less fun. And, inevitably, there is no parent around to police the kid and the DM doesn't speak up. The ultimate disaster, from my memory, was a pair of kids (like 7 and 9 I think) who made infantile (usually crude) jokes the entire game, didn't pay attention to the module at all, but one of their parents was the Senior GM (at the Con) and seemed to encourage their behavior. Kids will be kids. I don't fault them for that. And, I was a kid and remember what it was like. I would have been devastated if I couldn't play my favorite game. Still, I think some level of supervision would be reasonable (especially at conventions). RPGA requires maturity and most kids just haven't learned that yet. -SYB
kenobi65 01-30-07, 12:30 PM	But, I'd say that at about one table each convention, I sit with a brat that makes the game much less fun. And, inevitably, there is no parent around to police the kid and the DM doesn't speak up. Here's the thing. What you just described isn't really an RPGA issue, per se. It's a convention issue. (And, more directly, it sounds like it's at least as much a poor parenting issue as a kid issue). I recall DMing a homebrewed adventure at GenCon in the mid-80s. I had two young brothers show up at my table, maybe 8 and 10 years old, with no parent in sight. I was a little skeptical, but I ran with it. The two brothers weren't boorish or overly childish, but they fundamentally acted as though they were playing the module just by themselves, completely ignoring the other players / PCs. One of them was playing the party's cleric, and flatly ignored anyone else's need for healing spells, while making sure that his brother's PC was at full HP. Could that happen at an RPGA table, too? Sure it could. But, again, I think it's more an issue with the convention not having and enforcing rules about parental supervision.
SYB 01-30-07, 01:00 PM	Here's the thing. What you just described isn't really an RPGA issue, per se. It's a convention issue. (And, more directly, it sounds like it's at least as much a poor parenting issue as a kid issue). I recall DMing a homebrewed adventure at GenCon in the mid-80s. I had two young brothers show up at my table, maybe 8 and 10 years old, with no parent in sight. I was a little skeptical, but I ran with it. The two brothers weren't boorish or overly childish, but they fundamentally acted as though they were playing the module just by themselves, completely ignoring the other players / PCs. One of them was playing the party's cleric, and flatly ignored anyone else's need for healing spells, while making sure that his brother's PC was at full HP. Could that happen at an RPGA table, too? Sure it could. But, again, I think it's more an issue with the convention not having and enforcing rules about parental supervision. I agree and disagree. I agree in the sense that, if you look at the initial post in this thread, this discussion is specifically about "age limits at conventions". But, I disagree that the convention should be making rules regarding supervision. Every game at a convention is different. Roleplaying games will generally require a more mature audience (though, exceptions clearly exist). Certain board games, CCGs, and video game (at the right conventions) will require a less mature audience. I think it is the responsibility of the organizer of the specific event to have and enforce rules regarding parental supervision. Thus, while RPGA rules can easily have no age rules for normal events, it may be appropriate to include a parental supervision rule at conventions. Alternately, the decision could be left up to the Senior GM at each individual convention. Gen Con may require the rule, while MiniCon (name made up) may be small enough that it isn't really necessary. The only solution I have seen that involves the convention enforcing rules that I think is acceptable is a rating system. Some conventions have a MPAA style rating system for games. But, again, the organizer of the specific event decides what rating to give the game. Thus, again, putting responsibility in the hands of the organizer. -SYB
Bob_the_Theurge 01-30-07, 06:02 PM	You've got that already. All RPGA members, even the five-year-old ones, have to abide by the RPGA floor rules. If you're disruptive you can get a Caution. Or a Warning which must be reported to the RPGA. If you're severely disruptive you can be excluded from the play area. All of this is in the Senior GM's control, besides whatever controls the owners/operators of the venue have at their disposal. Maybe I should have rephrased this: I support the con organizers reminding parents of this at the door, "just in case."
Bob_the_Theurge 01-30-07, 06:12 PM	Well, if it's the guy I'm thinking of, there was a lot of discussion in another thread on the issue, and it came down to him having a big issue with two kids playing in his area who both were, in his opinion, fundamentally playing cohorts of their fathers' PCs. And, since both of the dads were heavily involved in RPGA, he didn't feel that there was anything he could do about it (he said that "complain to the Senior GM" wasn't an option because one of the dads *was* the Senior GM). Ah, the classic "28-point cohort." We've got a few of those in our region, to the point that when these parents and their kids both sign up for a home game, it's common to hear the phrase "PPP and cohort" being listed as part of the discussions of who's on the table (out of earshot of the parent, of course). On the other hand, we've got a few parents and kids who have no problem; I know one kid (I believe 13 years old) who's got a pretty good Druid, and another of them is a now 9-year-old who plays a wizard by the book with no problem whatsoever. Both of these two kids - unlike the "PPP and cohort" types - can play at tables with no problem, they're on their game, not disruptive, and don't necessarily need their parents watching (though we usually arrange tables fairly close just so the parents are in earshot if needed). The "PPP" parents are usually fine on their own, but when they have their "cohorts" along, inevitably one or the other character isn't ready when their combat turn comes up, or something else goes on, and it can detract from the table, especially when one of the kids is just having a bad day. Like I said; it's something that I really feel requires attention to the circumstances of the individual parent and kid, and a blanket rule at any convention would probably cause more trouble than it'd be worth. Now, as to the inability to complain to the Senior GM because one of the trouble parents is the Senior GM... I feel your pain.
clannagh 01-30-07, 06:47 PM	on a totally and completely unrelated note, i FREAKIN HATE dimensional locks. at least Alvin couldnt be dismissed :)
Genghis Cohen 01-31-07, 07:47 PM	I DMed a two round slot at an interactive on Saturday with 4 kids (11 to 14) and two adults. No parents at the table. At times, I had to coach some of the kids about tactics. I didn't make decisions for them, but when they were stuck, I explained that they had several decisions and that each choice had different levels of risk and reward. It was a bit annoying dealing with the short attention spans, but that's to be expected. What I found most refreshing about running a game for kids was the lack of metagaming. They don't have half of the Monster Manual memorized. They cling to the descriptions from the MM, and they have genuine emotional reactions to the artwork of what they are facing. I'd definitely do it again.
copper_wyrmling 01-31-07, 08:47 PM	and also, another :cheer: to selena (again, we have no idea how to spell ur name darlin) for running a pretty shockingly put together mod really well, given that the party composition for it kind of sucked, and alvin was being even more of a nut than usual.... on a totally and completely unrelated note, i FREAKIN HATE dimensional locks. It's Sulenna, and yeah, she is fantastic :cheer: I would much rather have her as a GM than many of the adult players I know - she knows the rules very very well and she's also willing to be flexible with the mod when the PCs' actions go outside what the author expected. She's a very good player too, and fun to GM: I've run several games for her and her younger siblings as well as playing with them a few times when their regular cleric was busy. Of course, she's been playing LG for roughly twice as long as I have, so it's sort of to be expected... ;) I do think that it's a good idea to encourage kids to play on the same table as their parents, but most of the parents I've met will do that anyway if they know the child has a short attention span or needs help running their character. The 7-8-year-olds I've met generally need a bit of help, either from a family member or from a friend at the table: so long as that's recognized, I haven't found it to be a problem.
rockondon 02-01-07, 01:14 AM	last mod I played had a kid at the table (10yrs old I think) and he was great! Good player, good roleplayer, he knew the rules, all in all a great player. In fact, when we came up to the BBEG who had DR 10/good and the cleric only had one align weapon spell memorized, he ignored the other tanks in the party and aligned that kid's sword - because he was the most effective character thus far in the mod. Not that that's a compelling argument or anything. I just thought I'd mention it. 8-9 yr olds are often immature and/or disruptive, but not all of them are. Therefore, one shouldn't discriminate against the entire age group because of some bad apples. I've played with a lot of crappy players who were disruptive or rude or offensive for various reasons and they were all aged 15-20. Should we rule out that age group as well? Treat players on a person by person basis, don't judge them by their age group. /my two gold pieces
cycloptic_squirrel 02-01-07, 01:30 AM	Children might be our most impressionable players. Treat them helpfully, fairly, and patiently, and they'll grow to be some of our better members. They'll be better people, too. Children might not change as quickly as adults, but I'd bet rich upkeep that a young person is more likely to pick up habits (good and bad) of other players.