Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Wire 03-11-07, 11:02 PM	Being fairly new to Living Greyhawk, I've heard from a number of arcanist players and judges that are usually a lot of problems with "creative casters" who use Servant Horde (SpC - 3rd level) & Unseen Servant (PHB - 1st level) in bizarro ways. As well, there are lots of problems with judges at a given table across the USA giving consistent ajudications of the uses of these 2 spells. So my question to all of you experts is ... what's the story with these 2 spells? What are these fantasticly creative (and quasi-broken) uses of the Servant Horde that are worth mentioning? The fact that such mundane appearring spells can be used in such fashion sounds fascinating to me! Thank you!
Arvagor 03-12-07, 12:35 AM	IME, the player ... a) forgets (or ignores) that the servant(s) only have Str 2, or b) tries to give the servant overly complex commands, which the servant can't follow
Timlagor 03-12-07, 02:11 AM	A few of the actual uses that I've read about: 1) pick up after the party ( eg "pick up and sheathe any dropped weapon" - no more complex than the examples) 2) feed a potion to a downed ally 3) draw a weapon and put it in an ally's hand so they can full attack 4) carry an ally into position to full attack (requires the horde) 5) manipulate an item supected of being trapped (may require horde)
Wire 03-12-07, 02:31 AM	Thanks for the input so far, guys. Wow - some of those uses do seem like big rules arguments just waiting to happen. 1. "Putting a weapon into an ally's hands" - No rules in the PHB for that one. 2. "Carry an ally into a full attack position" - Ditto. And sounds totally absurd because with such a low STR, the servants could not deal with strength-challenged balancing nature of keeping said ally upright and combat-ready. The others of Timlagor's mentioning above seem somewhat viable.
Timlagor 03-12-07, 02:57 AM	If you have a Horde they can easily take the weight and there's nothing to suggest that they can't hold your shoulders. The problem with that one is that rounds are supposed to happen simultaneously. Comparison with the mounted combat rules is almost inevitable. There is no rule for putting a weapon in someone's hands but most Judges allow you to do so as a move action (and them to take it as a Free action) -that one shouldn't really be problematic imo.
solbergb 03-12-07, 11:39 AM	Most judges use similar rules for a character assisting another character. A servant has a std and move action every turn, just like any other creature. It isn't a creature, but has a move speed and has actions much like one. Taking actions is what the servant does. So arming a party member would be move to pick up weapon, move to hand it to the part member. (I've seen this mechanic used lots of times when a creature is involved). Potions are trickier. With one servant it's a two-round proposition (one round to get out potion, one full round action to apply it and the recipient has to hold still while it's being done...the usual target is bleeding out, so not usually a problem there, but applying oils is trickier). With a servant horde, you could coordinate two servants with one direct the spell action (one to retrieve potion and hand to other servant, other servant to apply, again much like two PC's cooperating). The other common action replacement I do with them is lighting a smokestick. I issue smokesticks and tindertwigs to party members. If I've got a servant within 5', one servant can grab tindertwig (move action) and light smokestick (std action) if the posesser of the items is willing. I don't really try to do effects that have sequential behavior beyond two servants. The timing issues with the round go bad. Servant horde can combine a lot of servants to do one action and move a lot more weight. 2d6+level times 20 pounds lift or 100 lb drag gives a fair amount of manipulative ability. (many hands make light work). A lot of how you make the servants acceptable to judges is being really keen on enforcing their limitations. The biggest one is speed. Servants can't keep up with party members who move more than 30' per round, and they lose an action if the part member moves more than 5'. They also vaporize when area effects happen or if you (caster) move too far away. The other big limiting factor was, after seeing 3-dimensional movement by a servant horde in action for a few games, judges suddenly ruling that their movement was land movement only. Which is plausible and how I've run the servants (I assume they have reach of a medium sized creature, both horizontal and vertical) for over a year now, with no ill effects. Regarding mounted combat stuff - the rule of thumb is if the PC moves himself by directing the servants, it's similar to mounted combat. If the PC moves somebody else, it's not. Nobody is ever penalized in D&D for being moved by another creature on their actions - I can't deprive an enemy of a full attack by bull rushing it, for example. From an action conservation point of view, it's only fair. What a PC is doing is trading his actions for the actions of whomever he's moving. Not all judges rule that way, but a lot of them do. As a rule I don't usually use the servant horde to move anyone further than 5' to avoid such rules discussions, but I do stand them up sometimes, or drag them out of danger.
Mattastrophic 03-12-07, 02:30 PM	I'll have to put some thought into this spell, especially combined with Shadow Guardians. Then throw on Prying Eyes and I'll have minis everywhere! -Matt
solbergb 03-12-07, 02:44 PM	I tend to use the little CCG "Stones" used to count power or whatever for locations of servants when they get more complex than I want to deal with in my head. Whole minis are a bit much. When in doubt I assume the servants are too far away and summon more...
Wire 03-12-07, 04:49 PM	Thanks to Solbergb and everybody's input on this. Interesting stuff. And I never really thought of the spell as an in-combat "action multiplier". It seems that for all the extra bookkeepping you'd need to properly track all those servants, you definitely will get some bang for the buck in regards to returns. Although I can see that a crafty and dedicated PC will definitely try to squeeze as much out of the spell as possible. Thereby and possibly causing some consternation from a DM and/or a judge. I can also see some interesting combos you could pull of with these guys and a Tenser's Floating Disk. :)
Samwise 03-12-07, 06:34 PM	This is not my idea (although it is why a certain player constantly gets glared at by me): A 10' x 5' (6 square yards or so) section of cloth (silk or linen). Mobile concealment, partial or full depending on the quality of the cloth and DM whim. Worse, if you really want to press the issue, and based on certain rulings, since the cloth has a hit point and is opaque, it could be considered full cover.
jhorred 03-12-07, 07:47 PM	I've played a couple time with solbergb and I've benefited from the servant horde when they did javelin recovery duty for my fighter... One thing a local player has taken to 'clothing' a servant and pushing it out in front of the party in low light conditions hoping to trigger ambushes....
Arvagor 03-12-07, 07:52 PM	One thing a local player has taken to 'clothing' a servant and pushing it out in front of the party in low light conditions hoping to trigger ambushes....This is something I'd draw the line at... The spell specifically states that the servant is a "shapeless force", so it can't be clothed.
Samwise 03-12-07, 07:56 PM	This is something I'd draw the line at... The spell specifically states that the servant is a "shapeless force", so it can't be clothed. However, there is no limit on how many items of clothing one servant can carry, or any significant limit on what "shape" they can hold the items in. Indeed, provided you have a light enough frame, you can simply make a scarecrow of 20 lbs. or less, and have the servant carry that. With poor enough light, I'd say that could pass.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-12-07, 08:00 PM	However, there is no limit on how many items of clothing one servant can carry, or any significant limit on what "shape" they can hold the items in. Indeed, provided you have a light enough frame, you can simply make a scarecrow of 20 lbs. or less, and have the servant carry that. With poor enough light, I'd say that could pass. Or thow a sheet over it so it can be a spooky ghost!
Mommy was an Orc 03-12-07, 08:03 PM	However, there is no limit on how many items of clothing one servant can carry, or any significant limit on what "shape" they can hold the items in. Indeed, provided you have a light enough frame, you can simply make a scarecrow of 20 lbs. or less, and have the servant carry that. With poor enough light, I'd say that could pass. But there is the problem of it being just a floating blob - it isn't actually using its legs to walk. A huge problem with such a thing is making the scarecrow appear to actually have weight when it walks.
bitznarf 03-12-07, 08:15 PM	But there is the problem of it being just a floating blob - it isn't actually using its legs to walk. A huge problem with such a thing is making the scarecrow appear to actually have weight when it walks. Would probably call for a bluff check on the servants part, and it can only get a 10 on the check, if I understand the rules correctly.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-12-07, 09:05 PM	But there is the problem of it being just a floating blob - it isn't actually using its legs to walk. A huge problem with such a thing is making the scarecrow appear to actually have weight when it walks. Depending on the bad guys, it might not need to be that convincing. Without a spellcraft check to know what's going on, the bad guys just know something wierd is going on and probably won't just sit there and do nothing...
Samwise 03-12-07, 09:16 PM	Depending on the bad guys, it might not need to be that convincing. Without a spellcraft check to know what's going on, the bad guys just know something wierd is going on and probably won't just sit there and do nothing... Right. And it was said to be poor light. So I'd say we are just talking about a Spot check versus say a Disguise or Craft check from the person making the scarecrow. Of course, if we want to get all Fort Zinderneuf on the thing, we can just behead whoever was in the last room, dump that on top of the scarecrow along with their clothes, maybe pop a minor image underneath it, and have the unseen servant wander out with that. It's a minor trick to flush an ambush, not an attempted autokill on the CR 23 dragon. If the bad guys have a Spot monster it fails, and they do get surprise. If they don't, they act too soon and we go right to initiative, or surprise for the PCs if they remain hidden.
Mommy was an Orc 03-13-07, 12:48 AM	Right. And it was said to be poor light. So I'd say we are just talking about a Spot check versus say a Disguise or Craft check from the person making the scarecrow.. No way. How many computer animation movies have fooled you into thinking you saw a person? And in many cases, they actually were using a person moving for data and they had an artificially created musculature, something that scarecrow won't have. And it isn't the person doing it, it is a bunch of unseen servants who are attempting to move multiple times in sequence at different speeds at different points in initiative in the same round...
Jay_Ibero_911 03-13-07, 01:04 AM	No way. How many computer animation movies have fooled you into thinking you saw a person? And in many cases, they actually were using a person moving for data and they had an artificially created musculature, something that scarecrow won't have. And it isn't the person doing it, it is a bunch of unseen servants who are attempting to move multiple times in sequence at different speeds at different points in initiative in the same round... Unseen Servants act on your initiative...so they would be acting simultaneously anyway. And they wouldn't even be in initiative yet anyway, unless you were trying to set off an ambush while you were in the middle of ANOTHER combat...
Samwise 03-13-07, 01:07 AM	No way. How many computer animation movies have fooled you into thinking you saw a person? And in many cases, they actually were using a person moving for data and they had an artificially created musculature, something that scarecrow won't have. And it isn't the person doing it, it is a bunch of unseen servants who are attempting to move multiple times in sequence at different speeds at different points in initiative in the same round... Yes way, because you are not addressing the particular encounter. First, it is one unseen servant, not a bunch. Second, even if it were multiples, they would all be moving on the same point in initiative - that of the caster. Third, since the object is solely to make me think I saw a person, how many cheap carny rides have made you jump when some two-bit figure leaped out? How many simple puppets or portraits have seemed life-like to you, especially in poor lighting, when suddenly exposed, and in the first 6 seconds? Indeed, how many simple statues have you thought were lurking people in the middle of the night? I may as well ask how many actors you didn't recognize under ordinary make up in a movie. No fancy latex prosthetics, just simple make up and glued on hair. Nobody should ever be able to disguise themselves as someone else, especially of another race or sex! Who cares if 6 seconds later you realize it was just a scarecrow? At one moment in time it made you jump, possibly even fire prepared arrows or spells. The purpose isn't to convince you that yes, you did see an actual, real, genuine person. It is just to get you to react to something in the shape of a person, moving in a place you expect. And that is a Craft of Disguise check versus a Spot check. Nobody suggested some Mission Impossible deception with an unseen servant driven super-manikin, and nobody would expect that to work. The suggestion is a simple scarecrow to get people to break cover prematurely. How many movies have you seen where someone poked a helmet over a wall or around a corner and somebody shot at it?
Jay_Ibero_911 03-13-07, 01:20 AM	Yes way, because you are not addressing the particular encounter. First, it is one unseen servant, not a bunch. Second, even if it were multiples, they would all be moving on the same point in initiative - that of the caster. Third, since the object is solely to make me think I saw a person, how many cheap carny rides have made you jump when some two-bit figure leaped out? How many simple puppets or portraits have seemed life-like to you, especially in poor lighting, when suddenly exposed, and in the first 6 seconds? Indeed, how many simple statues have you thought were lurking people in the middle of the night? I may as well ask how many actors you didn't recognize under ordinary make up in a movie. No fancy latex prosthetics, just simple make up and glued on hair. Nobody should ever be able to disguise themselves as someone else, especially of another race or sex! Who cares if 6 seconds later you realize it was just a scarecrow? At one moment in time it made you jump, possibly even fire prepared arrows or spells. The purpose isn't to convince you that yes, you did see an actual, real, genuine person. It is just to get you to react to something in the shape of a person, moving in a place you expect. And that is a Craft of Disguise check versus a Spot check. Nobody suggested some Mission Impossible deception with an unseen servant driven super-manikin, and nobody would expect that to work. The suggestion is a simple scarecrow to get people to break cover prematurely. How many movies have you seen where someone poked a helmet over a wall or around a corner and somebody shot at it? Perhaps to enhance the trick...cast darkness on the scarecrow the unseen servant is carrying...Hopefully the bad guys will assume it's a PC in the middle, trying to gain the advantage by forcing the bad guys to fight in darkness...then when they expose themselves, dismiss the darkness and yell "Gotcha!"
Samwise 03-13-07, 01:24 AM	Perhaps to enhance the trick...cast darkness on the scarecrow the unseen servant is carrying...Hopefully the bad guys will assume it's a PC in the middle, trying to gain the advantage by forcing the bad guys to fight in darkness...then when they expose themselves, dismiss the darkness and yell "Gotcha!" That would help. Of course going that far you could just use dancing lights and hope the bad guys forget they don't have a druid with them. :P
Mommy was an Orc 03-13-07, 07:27 AM	Yes way, because you are not addressing the particular encounter. First, it is one unseen servant, not a bunch. Then it is a floating object created by a 1st level spell that no experienced NPC should be fooled by. Either NPCs are smart or they're idiots. It can't be both. i.e. what you're in essence saying is that if my wizard made a silent image of this scarecrow floating down the street, I'd likely have a better shot of fooling an NPC than if I made the illusion of an actual person. Third, since the object is solely to make me think I saw a person, how many cheap carny rides have made you jump when some two-bit figure leaped out? How many simple puppets or portraits have seemed life-like to you, especially in poor lighting, when suddenly exposed, and in the first 6 seconds? Indeed, how many simple statues have you thought were lurking people in the middle of the night? Never? Then again, I walked home every night at 2 am in one of the worst areas of Manhattan in the early 90s and actually blocked a punch from someone trying to mug me. I might actually have a spot check...
solbergb 03-13-07, 10:05 AM	Note that animals who hunt by motion or constructs might be easily fooled by such a trick, as might any moderately dumb monster with no class levels, whose experience probably doesn't include PC tricks. A lot depends on what they know. for extra fun, swap out the scarecrow with your rogue disguised as a scarecrow, to get him into flank position when they ignore him... I've tended to stay away from using the servants as decoys because that's a use tricky enough to require a lot of adjudication, and some judges don't like it. Illusions tend to work better for that, and have mechanics easier to adjudicate. Not that my sorceress does illusions aside from silent image scrolls, but she usually springs ambushes by turning on arcane sight, noting all the blobs of faint illusion or other clumps of magic on would-be ambushers and dropping an area effect spell on them. Doesn't work well on predators but pretty good on the smarter folks with spells and/or equipment. For concealment you can make quite a smokescreen by activating smokesticks on everyone in the party. Again with mechanics and also with resource burn, making the tactic more acceptable. I've considered using servant horde to carry around portable cover too, but reactions to early attempts for that were really bad (more "that's weird" than "that's cheesy" but always complicated and never positive). Oddly enough piling up a tenser disk with a bunch of crap and using it as cover vs ranged attack (not full cover) has never experienced any bad resistance. It's funny what people don't like.
Samwise 03-13-07, 11:46 AM	Then it is a floating object created by a 1st level spell that no experienced NPC should be fooled by. Either NPCs are smart or they're idiots. It can't be both. i.e. what you're in essence saying is that if my wizard made a silent image of this scarecrow floating down the street, I'd likely have a better shot of fooling an NPC than if I made the illusion of an actual person. Actually what you are saying is that the silent image should never have a chance of working because there is no way the NPCs can fail to note that it makes no sound. Never? Then again, I walked home every night at 2 am in one of the worst areas of Manhattan in the early 90s and actually blocked a punch from someone trying to mug me. I might actually have a spot check... And yet all those carny rides stay in business. So I guess they work on some people.
LachlarlanIII 03-13-07, 11:59 AM	Actually what you are saying is that the silent image should never have a chance of working because there is no way the NPCs can fail to note that it makes no sound. Will-o'-Wisps and incorporials in general don't make sound (unless they want to). A silent image of a Will-o'-Wisp or a Spectre or even a Ghost has a very good chance of working.
Mommy was an Orc 03-13-07, 12:11 PM	Actually what you are saying is that the silent image should never have a chance of working because there is no way the NPCs can fail to note that it makes no sound. Do your NPCs ignore Rogues sneaking around that they spot, but don't hear? And yet all those carny rides stay in business. So I guess they work on some people. And how many of those people would be considered to have class levels? Hmm...guess this means I have a class level and you don't ;)
Samwise 03-13-07, 12:17 PM	Will-o'-Wisps and incorporials in general don't make sound (unless they want to). A silent image of a Will-o'-Wisp or a Spectre or even a Ghost has a very good chance of working. Except most people wouldn't bother "ambushing" a pack of undead. :P
Samwise 03-13-07, 12:19 PM	Do your NPCs ignore Rogues sneaking around that they spot, but don't hear? Most rogues don't fail a hide check if they make a move silently check. And how many of those people would be considered to have class levels? Hmm...guess this means I have a class level and you don't ;) Nope, I just don't have ranks in spot. :D
Paul H 03-13-07, 12:33 PM	Hi Tend to use Tan Bag of Tricks to flush out obvious ambushes. (As posted elsewhere). OK - so all I've got so far are Warhorses in that situation, but I prefer the Mohrgs move in & flank the Warhorse (which is what happened last game), than a PC. After all - I get another nine uses once that one's died! (No - I'm NOT a Druid, Nor am I Good)! :schemes: But then I'm a support character, not rogue, wizard etc. Cheers Paul H
Mommy was an Orc 03-13-07, 12:54 PM	Most rogues don't fail a hide check if they make a move silently check. Sneak Rogues, maybe not. Silence, Sculpt Sound, or Zone of Silence on someone not specialized in hiding... Did I mention my Bard has Sculpt Sound and enough spell capability to make it last all day - does this mean the next time I play him at your table, you'll allow ambushes at all encounters because the NPCs think we're Silent Spell illusions?
Samwise 03-13-07, 12:57 PM	Sneak Rogues, maybe not. Silence, Sculpt Sound, or Zone of Silence on someone not specialized in hiding... Did I mention my Bard has Sculpt Sound and enough spell capability to make it last all day - does this mean the next time I play him at your table, you'll allow ambushes at all encounters because the NPCs think we're Silent Spell illusions? No, it means I will automatically rule they note the peculiar silence "walking" through the area, and prepare accordingly. If no simple trick will work, obviously a more complex one will put them on even higher alert.
Mommy was an Orc 03-13-07, 01:58 PM	No, it means I will automatically rule they note the peculiar silence "walking" through the area, and prepare accordingly. If no simple trick will work, obviously a more complex one will put them on even higher alert. That only happens with Silence spell - Sculpt Sound can mean PCs seem exactly like they might with Silent Image - no sound emanates from them...either your ambushers go off against Silent spell or they don't go off on Sculpted Sound people. And you can set this up in such a way that you don't negate casters, either. And in any case, that's avoiding the real issue - you've made a 1st level spell not designed to create this tactical problem better than one specifically intended to cause this tactical problem.
Samwise 03-13-07, 02:15 PM	And in any case, that's avoiding the real issue - you've made a 1st level spell not designed to create this tactical problem better than one specifically intended to cause this tactical problem. I used the spell as written - a force that can carry things. One might equally say that using it to recover disarmed weapons is an excessive use of the spell, or indeed any use beyond just cleaning your house. There are a lot of spells that can be used in unusual ways. That doesn't mean the person using them creatively has done something wrong, any more than say using UMD in an unforeseen manner must be utterly denied just because it threatens to work too well.
Mommy was an Orc 03-13-07, 02:42 PM	I used the spell as written - a force that can carry things. The spell as written can't perform any task with a DC higher than 10. If you set the DC of the spot check as higher than 10, you've done just that...I'm not even certain why the Spot check is being opposed by the player's check as that will have almost nothing to do with the realism of the movement generated by the Unseen Servant. There's a big difference between rewarding a player for thinking creatively and deciding NPCs should be taken in by parlour tricks.
Samwise 03-13-07, 11:58 PM	The spell as written can't perform any task with a DC higher than 10. If you set the DC of the spot check as higher than 10, you've done just that...I'm not even certain why the Spot check is being opposed by the player's check as that will have almost nothing to do with the realism of the movement generated by the Unseen Servant. Expect the relevance of the movement of the unseen servant is secondary to whether the scarecrow is reasonably believable. Indeed, I think you seriously overestimate the number of people who pay attention to how something walks as opposed to whether it is moving. There's a big difference between rewarding a player for thinking creatively and deciding NPCs should be taken in by parlour tricks. Why wouldn't NPCs be taken in with parlor tricks?
Mommy was an Orc 03-14-07, 09:34 AM	Expect the relevance of the movement of the unseen servant is secondary to whether the scarecrow is reasonably believable. Indeed, I think you seriously overestimate the number of people who pay attention to how something walks as opposed to whether it is moving. To use an example, in Star Wars, the original one, there's only one actual sun light source on Tatooine, despite there being two suns. Now intellectually speaking, it might have made sense to put two shadows there. But what would have happened, is people would have been immediately confused. They wouldn't have known what they were looking at - why would the desert not have hard shadows/highlights. They might not be able to spell out what's wrong, but they know something is wrong It isn't a matter of paying attention to how something walks or moves. It is that every single person in the world instinctively knows what a person moving looks like. And your scarecrow won't look like that. They might not know what it is, but they'll know what it isn't - a person. Why wouldn't NPCs be taken in with parlor tricks? Because you're being inconsistent here. Sam, you don't let guards in Greyhawk city get diplomatized to let someone bring weapons in unless they roll a 50. If they're not going to be taken in by someone with a diplomacy of +25(unless something weird is happening, we're talking a 10th+ level character here who has spent a lot of resources to get that good), why are they being taken in by a 1st level spell that almost any 1st level Wizard can cast.
Samwise 03-14-07, 11:40 AM	Because you're being inconsistent here. Sam, you don't let guards in Greyhawk city get diplomatized to let someone bring weapons in unless they roll a 50. If they're not going to be taken in by someone with a diplomacy of +25(unless something weird is happening, we're talking a 10th+ level character here who has spent a lot of resources to get that good), why are they being taken in by a 1st level spell that almost any 1st level Wizard can cast. Actually, you are the one being inconsistent here. You want to use what is written in the rules in one place, but only use the spirit in another. And here you want to assert a spirit that doesn't seem to be suggested anywhere. And no, the guards will let you bring weapons in, just not let you openly carry illegal ones. Making someone Helpful with Diplomacy does not mean they will simply ignore everything else in favor of doing whatever they have to do for you, including giving up their source of income just because you ask nicely. They will help you - pass you by without a search, ignore the wanted posters, have a random sneezing fit, and if they catch you later, they will "help" you by only taking 40% of the normal fine. I'd say forgiving 480 gp out of an 800 gp fine is pretty danged helpful! But they won't stand around, greet you happily, and shout for everyone to hear that they are letting their good buddy in ignoring all the laws. That's what you seem to expect. You want to use Diplomacy as a Dominate spell to completely usurp any sense of free will in the person, overturn any of their own motivations or desires, make them submit to any of your whims, and all without a spell slot expended, save allowed, or potential to break free. I'd say that's pretty far beyond the spirit of the rules, even if you can make them Fanatical on a rushed check as they are charging you.
Mommy was an Orc 03-14-07, 02:30 PM	Actually, you are the one being inconsistent here. You want to use what is written in the rules in one place, but only use the spirit in another. And here you want to assert a spirit that doesn't seem to be suggested anywhere. There's no spirit being suggested here. You're choosing to make the guards hostile and only helpful to convince them otherwise. Making it impossible for anyone except a diplomancer to convince a guard to look the other way. If guards can be fooled by a 1st level spell, yet a 15th level character with an 18 Charisma, 2 synergy skills at 5+ ranks, a circlet of Persuasion and maxxed out Diplomacy can't charm his way past the guards on a natural 20, that's inconsistent. You want to use Diplomacy as a Dominate spell to completely usurp any sense of free will in the person, overturn any of their own motivations or desires, make them submit to any of your whims, and all without a spell slot expended, save allowed, or potential to break free. I'd say that's pretty far beyond the spirit of the rules, even if you can make them Fanatical on a rushed check as they are charging you. No I don't. I simply want the guards to be willing to act like guards. Guards who have an all day job like that have to check every single person wandering into greyhawk. It just isn't within the boundaries of practicality to have an attitude like that. Especially in a town run by actual thieves of all things. It would make checking every single caravan a logistical nightmare. Merely being friendly and sympathizing with how hard their job and rolling a 30 on diplomacy ought to do it - they can always say, "Oh, they must have hidden that weapon from me..." later on - as that's what they'll have to say anyway if someone snuck a weapon past them in a haversack.
Cardinal Teplin 03-14-07, 02:59 PM	This kind of argument is of course exactly the problem with Unseen Servant Horde. As written, the spell allows you to carry things and do houshold tasks. How useful it is at doing parlour tricks, passing people their own weapons in combat, and so on, is vulnerable to table variation. How will NPCs react to a floating scarecrow? Can unseen servants use dancing swords? Is a rock dragged by an unseen servant sufficient to trigger traps? Is being passed a sword any quicker than drawing it? Can servants ready an action? And so on... This is a great strength in sitiuations where the DM is generous in his estimations of what can and can't be done, and a corresponding weakness where the DM is not. Even the most obvious and uncontentious benefits might end up being the ones that don't work when you need it.
Samwise 03-14-07, 03:05 PM	You are suggesting a spirit MWAO, and an extreme one. You want to Diplomacy to achieve everything, no matter what. You want to turn it into an ultimate Dominate spell, with no chance to resist other than beating you at initiative and attacking. You example of how the guards in Greyhawk act is simply incorrect on too many levels it is not worth refuting. You expectation that they guards would not insist on a bribe to avoid arresting you, no matter your skill with Diplomacy demonstrates just how much you expect this skill to do, over and above anything with the spirit of the rules. That you don't acknowledge that a similar character with maxed out Disguise skill should be able to make a scarecrow to fool anyone shows that you are applying a double standard. You want everything from one skill, and want to give nothing to another skill or a spell. That is simply not reasonable.
solbergb 03-14-07, 03:17 PM	This kind of argument is of course exactly the problem with Unseen Servant Horde. As written, the spell allows you to carry things and do houshold tasks. How useful it is at doing parlour tricks, passing people their own weapons in combat, and so on, is vulnerable to table variation And that is why if you take a flexible spell like this (or silent image, or suggestion or any of a number of others) you need to come up with "stock" uses a that are easy to explain and understand, and you need to then trim down your list of uses based on the reactions you get at tables. I try to end up with a bunch of uses that don't raise eyebrows beyond "thanks" from whomever they're helping. Those where I "win" the discussion may still be abandoned if I even HAVE the discussion more than a couple times. It's either too complex or just too weird. (there is no question a servant horde can carry a rowboat, and a character could ride in the boat and maybe get a bit of cover and certainly sort of use them like a mount. But after testing that in real play, there were no positive reactions, many "that's just weird" reactions and a discussion with the DM. Tactic scrapped (although I was able to sleep under the boat and flip it off with servants to engage in night fights, until the boat got stolen along with my cart in a later module...)
Samwise 03-14-07, 03:40 PM	Carry a rowboat . . . That's a good one. I have to make sure not to tell the guy I got the idea about the silk screen from about it. He'd definitely want to use it.
Mommy was an Orc 03-14-07, 04:24 PM	That you don't acknowledge that a similar character with maxed out Disguise skill should be able to make a scarecrow to fool anyone shows that you are applying a double standard. You want everything from one skill, and want to give nothing to another skill or a spell. That is simply not reasonable. I'd let someone use Disguise to make a scarecrow to make someone think a stationary guard was in place. I'd let solbergb do most of the things he wanted to do with Servant Horde. That I'd allow someone to make a Diplomacy check of 30 seems perfectly reasonable in that context. In order to make that, you have to be extremely skilled - a +20 to make it consistently is still an 8th level character with max ranks, 14 Charisma, Circlet of Persuasion, and 2 synergy skills. That's simply not a lot of people. And quite honestly, I have no idea how the guards are that much at risk if they're wrong. It isn't as if they can check haversacks effectively or stop wizard 9+ from teleporting in and out of the city. They're just a speed bump - which means the city isn't going to be putting its best guards in that position, because it is a waste of talented manpower. The person with the maxxed out Disguise skill isn't the one actually moving the scarecrow - as an example, if you have a craft skill of 50, that doesn't allow the Unseen Servants to use your craft skill score. They get to use their DC 10 check. Similarly, they're simply not going to move your scarecrow in anything remotely along the lines of a life-like manner. Which makes your fabulously realistic looking scarecrow look fake. I'd give them a DC 10 spot check to figure that out. Good enough for you?
Samwise 03-14-07, 04:41 PM	I'd let someone use Disguise to make a scarecrow to make someone think a stationary guard was in place. I'd let solbergb do most of the things he wanted to do with Servant Horde. That I'd allow someone to make a Diplomacy check of 30 seems perfectly reasonable in that context. In order to make that, you have to be extremely skilled - a +20 to make it consistently is still an 8th level character with max ranks, 14 Charisma, Circlet of Persuasion, and 2 synergy skills. That's simply not a lot of people. How is a Diplomacy check of any level achieving the same result as a 5th level Dominate Person without any save or interruption possible the same as allowing a Disguise check to make a scarecrow? And quite honestly, I have no idea how the guards are that much at risk if they're wrong. It isn't as if they can check haversacks effectively or stop wizard 9+ from teleporting in and out of the city. They're just a speed bump - which means the city isn't going to be putting its best guards in that position, because it is a waste of talented manpower. They can check haversacks effectively. They have some low level wizards hanging out, using wands of detect magic, and they check any bags that register. They have people with sense motive ready if they think you will bluff, first having your remove any magic items you are wearing of course, and if they don't like the answer, they just seize the bag for the duration of your visit. So it can be done. As for wizards teleporting in, yes they can. And they can teleport out. And escape any searches or arrests. Until the city gets fed up with their antics, unleashes some divinations, and sends a high level assassin after them. The person with the maxxed out Disguise skill isn't the one actually moving the scarecrow - as an example, if you have a craft skill of 50, that doesn't allow the Unseen Servants to use your craft skill score. They get to use their DC 10 check. Similarly, they're simply not going to move your scarecrow in anything remotely along the lines of a life-like manner. Which makes your fabulously realistic looking scarecrow look fake. So wait, nobody can disguise someone else? No skill can be used to help someone else? Are you sure that's the way you want to read those rules? I'd give them a DC 10 spot check to figure that out. Good enough for you? Not with the way you want to declare the spirit of other rules.
Mommy was an Orc 03-14-07, 07:25 PM	How is a Diplomacy check of any level achieving the same result as a 5th level Dominate Person without any save or interruption possible the same as allowing a Disguise check to make a scarecrow? How is convincing someone that you should be waved through the same result as a 5th level Dominate Person? They can check haversacks effectively. They have some low level wizards hanging out, using wands of detect magic, and they check any bags that register. That's pretty hilarious. Detect Magic doesn't work on Nystul's Magic Aura, no save. So anyone with access to a 1st level wizard can completely bypass that. Even a 25 gp scroll will do it for a period of a day. So wait, nobody can disguise someone else? No skill can be used to help someone else? Are you sure that's the way you want to read those rules? You can't use your craft skill to assist an Unseen Servant doing a craft check unless you're actually close enough to use the skill. Those are the rules. You can of course disguise someone else or use skills to help someone else. There are people who are beyond help - no amount of disguise will make a 6'6" half-orc into a convincing halfling. Same goes for an Unseen Servant trying to move your scarecrow in a lifelike manner.
Samwise 03-14-07, 07:37 PM	How is convincing someone that you should be waved through the same result as a 5th level Dominate Person? It's not. The way you want to do it, it is much worse, as they don't even get a saving throw. That's pretty hilarious. Detect Magic doesn't work on Nystul's Magic Aura, no save. So anyone with access to a 1st level wizard can completely bypass that. Even a 25 gp scroll will do it for a period of a day. So there will be a market in those I expect. Then again, that's what physical searches are for. You can't use your craft skill to assist an Unseen Servant doing a craft check unless you're actually close enough to use the skill. Those are the rules. Fortunately the unseen servant isn't making a craft check, or any skill check. You can of course disguise someone else or use skills to help someone else. There are people who are beyond help - no amount of disguise will make a 6'6" half-orc into a convincing halfling. Same goes for an Unseen Servant trying to move your scarecrow in a lifelike manner. Except that is specifically outside the range of the change a disguise spell could manage, so the comparison is not reasonable. Nor is the unseen servant trying to move the scarecrow in a lifelike manner, it is merely trying to move a lifelike scarecrow. I could switch the circumstances for a Diplomacy check a lot more easily, so perhaps you shouldn't be so eager to shut something like this down with extreme examples or altered tasks.
cetiken 03-14-07, 08:01 PM	...Indeed, provided you have a light enough frame, you can simply make a scarecrow of 20 lbs. or less, and have the servant carry that. With poor enough light, I'd say that could pass. Man! that reminds me of the one time we ran though a dungeon with a dead goblin on a stick pocking him through doorways first. Good Times. Now back to your regularly scheduled rules discussion.
cetiken 03-14-07, 08:07 PM	\ Of course, if we want to get all Fort Zinderneuf on the thing, we can just behead whoever was in the last room, dump that on top of the scarecrow along with their clothes, maybe pop a minor image underneath it, and have the unseen servant wander out with that. Or your Beguiler/ Illusionist friend could cast Silent Image for most of the same effect with an equally low level spell.
CdrcJsn 03-15-07, 04:24 AM	Hmm...if I was an experienced adventurer and noticed an obvious scarecrow floating my way, I'd think: 1) Damn ragamuffyns again. 2) Ghost possessed scarecrow? 3) Some invisible dude is carrying a scarecrow! 4) Do animated objects float? Is that in the new monster manual? I hope they increased the CR for this... 5) Oh hey, I made my DC 21 spellcraft...that looks like less than 20 lbs...probably an unseen servant carrying that.
Zanzibax 03-15-07, 10:33 AM	Carry a rowboat . . . That's a good one. I have to make sure not to tell the guy I got the idea about the silk screen from about it. He'd definitely want to use it. I doubt it. But you two are caught up on a mannikin replacement for an illusion spell. THAT is hilarious. However, I could *definitely* and *easily* think up many more uses for Unseen Servants that would earn glares from any GM that thinks as rigidly as you and Orc's son. Shall I? I tend to keep these ideas as craft secrets to pull out when it rains...or when I've been adequately annoyed by any given GM.
Zanzibax 03-15-07, 10:37 AM	Hmm...if I was an experienced adventurer and noticed an obvious scarecrow floating my way, I'd think: 1) Damn ragamuffyns again. 2) Ghost possessed scarecrow? 3) Some invisible dude is carrying a scarecrow! 4) Do animated objects float? Is that in the new monster manual? I hope they increased the CR for this... 5) Oh hey, I made my DC 21 spellcraft...that looks like less than 20 lbs...probably an unseen servant carrying that. Floating weapons tend to get people's attention. Why bother with all that? Shoot...all I need to do is take advantage of a "Light" spell. An invisible PC carrying a "Light" spell is still lit up even if you can't see the source of the light. Same deal with an Unseen Servant...except it's a level 1 spell not a level 2 spell, the object being carried needs to be small enough to be overlooked and all physical attacks into that 5' square are going to miss. I actually see this being used in Mommy Was an Orc's characters before some PC uses it. But...we're going to carefully guard the worst uses of the spell.
Zanzibax 03-15-07, 10:39 AM	Nor is the unseen servant trying to move the scarecrow in a lifelike manner, it is merely trying to move a lifelike scarecrow. :schemes: Maybe I'll just push a low wagon carrying a halfling or gnome disguised as a scarecrow slowly into position. Now I'm trying to move a scarecrow-like life. "Gotcha"
Zanzibax 03-15-07, 10:42 AM	But there is the problem of it being just a floating blob - it isn't actually using its legs to walk. A huge problem with such a thing is making the scarecrow appear to actually have weight when it walks. Stop thinking of it as a creature. It's a force. A shapeless force. As long as you think of it as a creature, you will always have problems.
Zanzibax 03-15-07, 10:43 AM	However, there is no limit on how many items of clothing one servant can carry, or any significant limit on what "shape" they can hold the items in. Indeed, provided you have a light enough frame, you can simply make a scarecrow of 20 lbs. or less, and have the servant carry that. With poor enough light, I'd say that could pass. Complexity limits the shape they can be held in.
Zanzibax 03-15-07, 10:44 AM	If you have a Horde they can easily take the weight and there's nothing to suggest that they can't hold your shoulders. The problem with that one is that rounds are supposed to happen simultaneously. Comparison with the mounted combat rules is almost inevitable. There is no rule for putting a weapon in someone's hands but most Judges allow you to do so as a move action (and them to take it as a Free action) -that one shouldn't really be problematic imo. I thought there was a rule for that.
Zanzibax 03-15-07, 10:46 AM	If you have a Horde they can easily take the weight and there's nothing to suggest that they can't hold your shoulders. Multiple Unseen Servants don't have to hold your shoulders. They are all shapeless forces. They can hold your entire body...and stack...one atop the other...carrying you in the perfect hammock.
Mommy was an Orc 03-15-07, 11:00 AM	Stop thinking of it as a creature. It's a force. A shapeless force. As long as you think of it as a creature, you will always have problems. Who is thinking of it as a creature? The Unseen Servant is a shapeless force. The Scarecrow is not. And being shapeless does not mean you can just stack them the way you suggest in a hammock form - that's a shape - it means it is 20 lbs of pressure applied to a point. Same deal with an Unseen Servant...except it's a level 1 spell not a level 2 spell, the object being carried needs to be small enough to be overlooked and all physical attacks into that 5' square are going to miss. Of course, instead of wasting a 1st level spell of Light, you could simply cast Dancing Lights instead. Or hand the Unseen Servant a torch.
Zanzibax 03-15-07, 11:08 AM	Who is thinking of it as a creature? The Unseen Servant is a shapeless force. The Scarecrow is not. And being shapeless does not mean you can just stack them the way you suggest in a hammock form - that's a shape - it means it is 20 lbs of pressure applied to a point. Uh...you have that backwards...A shapeless force can apply pressure at all points. (Thus the hammock approximation.) You need a shape for there to be a pressure point. And yes...a "blob" often refers to the shape of a creature. So if you're talking about a "shapeless blob", you seem to consider an Unseen Servant as if you had taken a black pudding, made it invisible, removed it's STR, and made it an ally. Of course, instead of wasting a 1st level spell of Light, you could simply cast Dancing Lights instead. Or hand the Unseen Servant a torch. Light is a 1st level spell? :confused: An invisible creature carrying a torch appears to be a moving light of undetermined origin. You just failed a spot check :cool: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/light.htm
Zanzibax 03-15-07, 11:10 AM	http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/invisibility.htm Actually, I guess a torch could be visible as a torch if carried by an invisible person. It would simply mean that the spell was cast before the torch was taken. So...it is an invisible person or an Unseen Servant? Your ambushers must now decide.
Mommy was an Orc 03-15-07, 12:19 PM	Uh...you have that backwards...A shapeless force can apply pressure at all points. (Thus the hammock approximation.) Applying 20 lbs of pressure all around an object does nothing - you need to provide a direction if you're going to provide 20 lbs of force. That's a point. A point is not a shape. Shapes have points, points are not shapes. So...it is an invisible person or an Unseen Servant? Your ambushers must now decide. If the ambushers can't see invisible creatures, then if an invisible person was sneaking by, they couldn't see him. So why is the invisible person carrying a light if he went through the trouble to be invisible...
Samwise 03-15-07, 01:20 PM	Applying 20 lbs of pressure all around an object does nothing - you need to provide a direction if you're going to provide 20 lbs of force. That's a point. A point is not a shape. Shapes have points, points are not shapes. Wouldn't a shape be composed of a number of points? And by that standard, an unseen servant couldn't pick up anything. To wield a mop or carry a bucket requires the application of force over more than a single point. So obviously that can not be a proper interpretation.
bitznarf 03-15-07, 01:29 PM	Applying 20 lbs of pressure all around an object does nothing - you need to provide a direction if you're going to provide 20 lbs of force. That's a point. A point is not a shape. Shapes have points, points are not shapes. What Sam said If the ambushers can't see invisible creatures, then if an invisible person was sneaking by, they couldn't see him. So why is the invisible person carrying a light if he went through the trouble to be invisible... If it makes them pause and/or investigate for a few seconds, it was entirely worth it in my opinion.
Zanzibax 03-15-07, 01:36 PM	Applying 20 lbs of pressure all around an object does nothing - you need to provide a direction if you're going to provide 20 lbs of force. That's a point. A point is not a shape. Shapes have points, points are not shapes. Uh...I don't know why you're arguing like this...it's nonsensical. Applying 20lbs of pressue on all points on one side of you is 20lbs of pressure pushing you in a given direction. With an Unseen Servant Horde, we are multiplying that force by 2d6+caster level. That's more than enough to carry you...if I choose to lift you...and by the definition of the spell...with your consent. Oh...and you're wrong about shapes. An infinite number of points, equidistant from a single point, defines a circle. Now, I am perfectly willing to accept that not all people consider a circle a shape, and if that's the case, we'll simply have to agree that those people are wrong...I mean...agree to disagree...yeah...that's it. :P If the ambushers can't see invisible creatures, then if an invisible person was sneaking by, they couldn't see him. So why is the invisible person carrying a light if he went through the trouble to be invisible... If the ambushers can't see invisible creatures, they will see a floating torch. We were talking about using an Unseen Servant as a decoy. Most invisible people carry torches when they cannot see in the dark. As to *why* they do it...I can only point to innumerable tables where PCs do exactly this action. Generally, however, they are sure to become invisible with the torch so that the torch doesn't give them away. However...all of this is simply an attempt to evade the issue. A floating torch goes past the ambushers. The ambushers are left to decide if it's a torch in the hand of an invisible person or being carried aloft via magic...it could be either...at any given point in time....hell...it could be *both*... :evillaugh
Zanzibax 03-15-07, 01:37 PM	Wouldn't a shape be composed of a number of points? And by that standard, an unseen servant couldn't pick up anything. To wield a mop or carry a bucket requires the application of force over more than a single point. So obviously that can not be a proper interpretation. How many objects can an Unseen Servant carry at once (within the given weight limit)? I think I know this one...but I'll ask anyway. Just to demonstrate the point about "points" of pressure.
Samwise 03-15-07, 02:01 PM	How many objects can an Unseen Servant carry at once (within the given weight limit)? I think I know this one...but I'll ask anyway. Just to demonstrate the point about "points" of pressure. There is no limit. However, it can only "functionally" manipulate two at once.
Zanzibax 03-15-07, 02:03 PM	There is no limit. However, it can only "functionally" manipulate two at once. :confused: Do you mean...Example: It can carry 100 .2 lb balls...but can only juggle 2? Do you have some FAQ or ruling from the Sage to reference? It looks like you've given a friendly ooze 2 pseudopods at the moment.
Mommy was an Orc 03-15-07, 02:08 PM	Uh...I don't know why you're arguing like this...it's nonsensical. Applying 20lbs of pressue on all points on one side of you is 20lbs of pressure pushing you in a given direction. And pressure in a given shape(you) Most invisible people carry torches when they cannot see in the dark. As to *why* they do it...I can only point to innumerable tables where PCs do exactly this action. Generally, however, they are sure to become invisible with the torch so that the torch doesn't give them away. That still gives away their position. There's this nice bright flame(not an object) shaped light in the center of the effect...in any case, invisibility makes objects you carry invisible regardless of whether or not you were holding it at the beginning of the effect.
Samwise 03-15-07, 02:13 PM	:confused: Do you mean...Example: It can carry 100 .2 lb balls...but can only juggle 2? Do you have some FAQ or ruling from the Sage to reference? Oh, bleah . . . I forgot. That's from the 3E FAQ, pages 62 and 63. (Specifically, page 63, left column, fourth paragraph.) The PHB 3.5 only limits it to "one activity" at a time. If the earlier FAQ is to be completely ignored, then there are no functional limits at all above those required for "one activity."
Samwise 03-15-07, 02:17 PM	And pressure in a given shape(you) Actually, no. The pressure does not have to be in that shape. It can be whatever generic application of pressure is required to manipulate the object in a way that does not damage it, just the same is required to manipulate a mop and bucket. That still gives away their position. There's this nice bright flame(not an object) shaped light in the center of the effect...in any case, invisibility makes objects you carry invisible regardless of whether or not you were holding it at the beginning of the effect. So the unseen servant carries the torch and you walk right beside it. :D
Zanzibax 03-15-07, 02:21 PM	And pressure in a given shape(you) That still gives away their position. There's this nice bright flame(not an object) shaped light in the center of the effect...in any case, invisibility makes objects you carry invisible regardless of whether or not you were holding it at the beginning of the effect. I just linked the spell from the SRD. Objects you carry, if picked up after the beginning of the effect, do not become invisible until you put them in a pocket or under your invisible clothing, from the text of the spell. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/invisibility.htm Items dropped or put down by an invisible creature become visible; items picked up disappear if tucked into the clothing or pouches worn by the creature. Light, however, never becomes invisible, although a source of light can become so (thus, the effect is that of a light with no visible source). Any part of an item that the subject carries but that extends more than 10 feet from it becomes visible. If LG has a different rule, please link me.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-15-07, 02:22 PM	in any case, invisibility makes objects you carry invisible regardless of whether or not you were holding it at the beginning of the effect. No it doesn't. If you are invisible, and pick something up, that object is still visible. However, you CAN conceal an object on your invisible person to keep it out of sight.
Zanzibax 03-15-07, 02:23 PM	Oh, bleah . . . I forgot. That's from the 3E FAQ, pages 62 and 63. (Specifically, page 63, left column, fourth paragraph.) The PHB 3.5 only limits it to "one activity" at a time. If the earlier FAQ is to be completely ignored, then there are no functional limits at all above those required for "one activity." :bounce:
Zanzibax 03-15-07, 02:29 PM	And pressure in a given shape(you) That still gives away their position. There's this nice bright flame(not an object) shaped light in the center of the effect...in any case, invisibility makes objects you carry invisible regardless of whether or not you were holding it at the beginning of the effect. So what did your ambushers decide? Did I walk past them with a torch or some Unseen Servant? Nevermind...I think I've proven the decoy effective.
Mommy was an Orc 03-15-07, 02:42 PM	So what did your ambushers decide? Did I walk past them with a torch or some Unseen Servant? Nevermind...I think I've proven the decoy effective. I think you've proven the ability to reveal to the ambushers that someone's nearby who either doesn't understand how to effectively use Invisibility or is trying to pull a fast one. I don't think that's very effective.
Zanzibax 03-15-07, 02:47 PM	I think you've proven the ability to reveal to the ambushers that someone's nearby who either doesn't understand how to effectively use Invisibility or is trying to pull a fast one. I don't think that's very effective. Can you GM my next game? :plotting: :evillaugh Afterwards we can share a brew from Pemblow's distillery.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-15-07, 03:02 PM	Can you GM my next game? :plotting: :evillaugh Afterwards we can share a brew from Pemblow's distillery. Wow...is it bad that at first I read that as "Pemblow's dysentery"?
Zanzibax 03-15-07, 03:22 PM	Wow...is it bad that at first I read that as "Pemblow's dysentery"? :thinks: Maybe? Maybe not...experiences vary. ((And that without giving up any spoilers! HA!))