Alter Self and You [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alter Self and You [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ShinAkuma2
08-10-06, 01:57 PM Am I correct in understanding that, when using Alter Self, one can only use forms found from Core books, which includes the standard PC races and a couple of MM creatures?

I'm playing a Tattooed Monk, and I was considering the Centipede tattoo for an Alter Self effect. Looking through the MM, it seemed the only viable choices were Trogolodyte for the natural armor and weapons, and the Lozathuh for the handy-dandy Swim speed. Perhaps the Lizardfolk and the Bugbear could be used for the racial skill bonuses, as well.

Anyway, what other things can I use to get some more mileage out of the spell/Tattoo? Or have I pretty much nailed them?
trollbill
08-10-06, 02:22 PM You've pretty much nailed it from what I've seen. Of course, a +6 natural armor bonus is nothing to shirk at for a monk (or my sorcerer).

Now I will also note that the LGCS specifically prohibits changing into a Lycanthrope's Hybrid form, but, stangely enough does not prohibit changing into their animal form (which is still Humanoid, according to the rules). So unless there is some ruling otherwise, it would seem some of these are viable options, as well.

SCRATCH THAT LAST PART! Lycanthropy is a template and they won't let you change into templates so I don't even know why they mentioned that bit about Hybrids in the LGCS. :confused:
solbergb
08-10-06, 04:21 PM I've also seen alter self used for the disguise effect, either disguised as a specific NPC or just to break down racial hatred barriers (your 6 charisma dwarf wizard is at less of a disadvantage mingling with orcs if he's altered into a orc or halforc form and your gnome bard learns more from goblins if she's suddently a highly charismatic goblin)
trollbill
08-10-06, 04:47 PM Okay, for the edification of my own LG sorcerer, I decided to compile a list of what creatures I can Alter Self into and what effects they have on me. Note the list assumes changes from a base race of Human:

Alter Self List

Bugbear - +3 natural armor bonus, +4 racial bonus to Hide
Dwarf; deep, hill & mountain – 20 ft. base land speed, Stonecunning, Stability, +2 racial bonus to Appraise and Craft checks involving stone or metal items.
Dwarf, duergar - 20 ft. base land speed, Stonecunning, Stability, +2 racial bonus to Appraise and Craft checks involving stone or metal items, +4 racial bonus to Move Silently, +1 racial bonus to Spot and Listen.
Elf; drow, high, grey, wild, & wood - +2 racial bonus to Spot, Listen and Search. Spot secret doors within 5 ft.
Elf, half-elf - +2 racial bonus to Diplomacy and Gather Information. +1 racial bonus to Spot, Listen and Search. Spot secret doors within 5 ft.
Elf, Aquatic – 40 ft. Swim Speed, +2 racial bonus to Spot, Listen and Search. Spot secret doors within 5 ft.
Gnoll - +1 natural armor bonus
Gnome, forest – 20 ft. base land speed, Small size, +2 racial bonus to Listen and Craft (alchemy) checks, +4 racial bonus to Hide (+8 in forest)
Gnome, rock – 20 ft. base land speed, Small size, +2 racial bonus to Listen and Craft (alchemy) checks
Gnome, svirfneblin - 20 ft. base land speed, Small size, +2 racial bonus to Listen and Craft (alchemy) checks, +2 racial bonus to Hide (+4 when underground), Stonecunning.
Goblin – Small size, +4 racial bonus to Move Silently & Ride
Halfling, lightfoot – 20 ft. base land speed, Small size, +2 racial bonus to Climb, Jump, Listen and Move Silently.
Halfling, tallfellow - 20 ft. base land speed, Small size, +2 racial bonus to Spot, Listen and Search. Spot secret doors within 5 ft.
Halfling, deep - 20 ft. base land speed, Small size, Stonecunning, +2 racial bonus to Listen, +2 racial bonus to Appraise and Craft checks involving stone or metal items.
Hobgoblin - +4 racial bonus to Move Silently
Kobold – Small size, +1 natural armor bonus, +2 racial bonus to Craft (trapmaking), Profession (miner) and Search.
Lizardfolk - +5 Natural Armor Bonus, +4 racial bonus to Balance, Jump & Swim, 2 Claws (primary) and 1 Bite (secondary) for 1d4 each.
Locathah – 10 ft. base land speed, 60 ft. Swim speed, +3 natural armor bonus, +8 racial bonus to swim checks, can take 10 on Swim checks even when endangered, can use the Run action while swimming.
Merfolk - 5 ft. base land speed, 50 ft. Swim speed, +8 racial bonus to swim checks, can take 10 on Swim checks even when endangered, can use the Run action while swimming.
Orc & half-orc – nothing.
Troglodyte - +6 natural armor bonus, Multi-attack, +4 racial bonus to Hide (+8 in rocky or underground areas), 2 Claws (primary) and 1 Bite (secondary) for 1d4 each.

Note that the LGCS specifically states that you can only change into base creatures that appear in the Monster Manual. Since humans do not appear in any form in the Monster Manual, technically you cannot Alter Self, Polymorph or even Shapechange into one, even if you started out as one. I imagine that 99.9% of the LG judges would ignore that technicallity, but it is kind of funny that it is there.
copper_wyrmling
08-10-06, 08:48 PM Note that, by the FAQ, humans lose their extra feat and skill points when they get Alter Self'ed or Polymorphed :rolleyes: This can get very bad if you needed that feat / skill points to qualify for a prestige class or feat chain.
ShinAkuma2
08-10-06, 10:45 PM I've also seen alter self used for the disguise effect

Well, that's a viable application of the spell, but I don't think I'll be using it that much. Keoland doesn't have many opportunities for disguises to matter. Still, one never knows when it'll come in handy outside of region, I guess.

Thanks for the list, trollbill. I forgot Goblins are available choices, and Goblins are my favorite small race. ^_^ Also, knowing I can become a Half-Elf for the bonus on social skills could be helpful.

I don't think you can get things like Stonecunning or an Elf's secret door detection, though. You only get "the physical qualities of the new form", which are pretty well-defined. You don't get "any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted...under physical qualities". Otherwise, you could use a Merfolk's Amphibious ability, or a Lizardfolk's Hold Breath, which I wish I could use for those underwater adventures.
twells
08-10-06, 11:40 PM Note that, by the FAQ, humans lose their extra feat and skill points when they get Alter Self'ed or Polymorphed :rolleyes: This can get very bad if you needed that feat / skill points to qualify for a prestige class or feat chain.

Given that Humans have traits of a bonus feat and skill points per level, if you Altered Self into a Human, would you gain an extra feat, and skill points equal to 4 + (your level - 1)?
Puggle Halfwine
08-10-06, 11:57 PM Given that Humans have traits of a bonus feat and skill points per level, if you Altered Self into a Human, would you gain an extra feat, and skill points equal to 4 + (your level - 1)?

According to the FAQ, yes. Which is... problematic.

Find a cool weapon? Need proficiency? Turn into a human and pick the weapon proficiency required. I mean, c'mon. I'm sure most of us can think of neat uses for one bonus feat...
copper_wyrmling
08-11-06, 05:38 AM According to the FAQ, yes. Which is... problematic.

Find a cool weapon? Need proficiency? Turn into a human and pick the weapon proficiency required. I mean, c'mon. I'm sure most of us can think of neat uses for one bonus feat...

Uh... no :P The FAQ says that the human feat and skill points are an extraordinary special quality derived from race - which is not the same as a "racial skill bonus" or "racial bonus feat". Alter Self and Polymorph do not generally grant the extraordinary special qualities of the new form, they just take away the ones you've got. Shapechange would do it, but only in the high-level campaign.

For example, a troll polymorphed into an elf loses its regeneration. An elf polymorphed into a troll does not gain regeneration. A human sorcerer Alter Self'ed into a troglodyte loses her extra feat. A troglodyte sorcerer Alter Self'ed into a human does not gain an extra feat.

It just means that if you Polymorph my sorcerer, she either forgets how to shoot into melee (loses Point Blank Shot, which means Precise Shot stops working), or she loses five levels of spellcasting (loses Magical Aptitude, which is the prerequisite for Wild Mage). Also, she forgets everything she knows about dragons (farewell, Knowledge (Arcana) ranks). If someone Polymorphs my cleric, she forgets everything she knows about magic (bye-bye Spellcraft), and a lot of her training in meditation goes out the window (loses Skill Focus:Concentration and a bunch of Concentration ranks).

Changing form is apparently a very traumatic experience for humans, but the other races take it in their stride :rolleyes:
Oogar
08-11-06, 06:59 AM So, what does this mean for a human Master of Many Forms that took both of the required feats (Endurance and Alertness) at first level? As soon as they turn into anything, they forget how to be a Master of Many Forms and revert back?
trollbill
08-11-06, 11:28 AM I don't think you can get things like Stonecunning or an Elf's secret door detection, though. You only get "the physical qualities of the new form", which are pretty well-defined. You don't get "any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted...under physical qualities". Otherwise, you could use a Merfolk's Amphibious ability, or a Lizardfolk's Hold Breath, which I wish I could use for those underwater adventures.

If you take an absolute literal translation of the rules, they would not get Stonecunning or Detect secret doors because these are not, by exact wording, racial bonuses to skill checks.

However, Stonecunning is essentially a circumstantial racial bonus to Search checks (Stonecunning flat out says it gives you a +2 racial bonus to Search checks for certain things), and the Elf's detect secret doors ability is described in the exact same bullet point as their racial bonuses to actual skill checks. Because of this, I would argue that both are figurative, if not literal, racial 'bonuses' to skill checks.

Well, that's a viable application of the spell, but I don't think I'll be using it that much. Keoland doesn't have many opportunities for disguises to matter. Still, one never knows when it'll come in handy outside of region, I guess.

When I started with my Sorcerer, I had the usual 2 1st-level spell limit at level 1. I chose Color Spray because it is a very powerful combat spell at low levels. And I picked Disguise Self for role-playing reasons because my character has the Draconic Heritage (silver) feat. This gives him Disguise as a class skill and the spell seemed a natural choice.

Of course, with only 2 first level spells to choose from until 3rd-level, you start looking for creative ways of making both spells as useful as possible. I soon found that Disguise Self was easily as powerful, if not more so, than Color Spray. You just had to look for ways of using it. I used this spell in almost every adventure I have participated in. Here are some examples of ways I found to use it:

Walked unaccosted through a hostile city and avoided a tough fight with some guards by disguising myself as the head of the local church.
Avoided an obviously very tough battle with some goblin worg riders by disguising myself as an officer in the Army of Ulek and using bluff and mundane trickery to convince them they were surrounded by a military patrol.
When a stubborn innkeeper refused to let us search the room of an assault victim, I changed into the victim to gain access.
Nearly avoided a battle with some pirates by disguising myself as one. The ‘nearly’ was only because one of our party decided he didn’t want to avoid the battle.
Puggle Halfwine
08-11-06, 12:56 PM Uh... no :P

Upon rereading the FAQ I stand corrected. Opps.

Still, it should be noted that you can't (read: probably shouldn't?) choose which feat/skill points are your human bonus ones on the fly- if you plan on polymorphing a lot, you should probably pick one and stick with it. Your milage may vary, of course...
trollbill
08-11-06, 01:04 PM Upon rereading the FAQ I stand corrected. Opps.

Still, it should be noted that you can't (read: probably shouldn't?) choose which feat/skill points are your human bonus ones on the fly- if you plan on polymorphing a lot, you should probably pick one and stick with it. Your milage may vary, of course...

Here's the next fun quirky rules question. If you Alter Self from a human to a human, do you still lose the feat and skills?
ShinAkuma2
08-11-06, 02:05 PM Here's the next fun quirky rules question. If you Alter Self from a human to a human, do you still lose the feat and skills?

Ugh, that's just lame.
JohnduBois
08-11-06, 02:19 PM Here's my favorite Alter Self weirdness:

Since you lose all your racial Ex abilities and don't gain the Ex abilities of the race you Alter into, whenever my dwarf bard Alters into a Troglodyte, he technically loses darkvision, even though both races have it...

I would like to note, though, that no DM has ever enforced this rule, even when I went Lawful Good about it and pointed it out to them.
Puggle Halfwine
08-11-06, 06:38 PM I would like to note, though, that no DM has ever enforced this rule, even when I went Lawful Good about it and pointed it out to them.

When I'm running games, I just throw that under the 'It's Stupid, Ignore It' rule. This is opposed to the 'It's Stupid But It's Gotta Be Done' rule. Good job on pointing it out, however. +1 Karma.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ShinAkuma2 08-10-06, 01:57 PM	Am I correct in understanding that, when using Alter Self, one can only use forms found from Core books, which includes the standard PC races and a couple of MM creatures? I'm playing a Tattooed Monk, and I was considering the Centipede tattoo for an Alter Self effect. Looking through the MM, it seemed the only viable choices were Trogolodyte for the natural armor and weapons, and the Lozathuh for the handy-dandy Swim speed. Perhaps the Lizardfolk and the Bugbear could be used for the racial skill bonuses, as well. Anyway, what other things can I use to get some more mileage out of the spell/Tattoo? Or have I pretty much nailed them?
trollbill 08-10-06, 02:22 PM	You've pretty much nailed it from what I've seen. Of course, a +6 natural armor bonus is nothing to shirk at for a monk (or my sorcerer). Now I will also note that the LGCS specifically prohibits changing into a Lycanthrope's Hybrid form, but, stangely enough does not prohibit changing into their animal form (which is still Humanoid, according to the rules). So unless there is some ruling otherwise, it would seem some of these are viable options, as well. SCRATCH THAT LAST PART! Lycanthropy is a template and they won't let you change into templates so I don't even know why they mentioned that bit about Hybrids in the LGCS. :confused:
solbergb 08-10-06, 04:21 PM	I've also seen alter self used for the disguise effect, either disguised as a specific NPC or just to break down racial hatred barriers (your 6 charisma dwarf wizard is at less of a disadvantage mingling with orcs if he's altered into a orc or halforc form and your gnome bard learns more from goblins if she's suddently a highly charismatic goblin)
trollbill 08-10-06, 04:47 PM	Okay, for the edification of my own LG sorcerer, I decided to compile a list of what creatures I can Alter Self into and what effects they have on me. Note the list assumes changes from a base race of Human: Alter Self List Bugbear - +3 natural armor bonus, +4 racial bonus to Hide Dwarf; deep, hill & mountain – 20 ft. base land speed, Stonecunning, Stability, +2 racial bonus to Appraise and Craft checks involving stone or metal items. Dwarf, duergar - 20 ft. base land speed, Stonecunning, Stability, +2 racial bonus to Appraise and Craft checks involving stone or metal items, +4 racial bonus to Move Silently, +1 racial bonus to Spot and Listen. Elf; drow, high, grey, wild, & wood - +2 racial bonus to Spot, Listen and Search. Spot secret doors within 5 ft. Elf, half-elf - +2 racial bonus to Diplomacy and Gather Information. +1 racial bonus to Spot, Listen and Search. Spot secret doors within 5 ft. Elf, Aquatic – 40 ft. Swim Speed, +2 racial bonus to Spot, Listen and Search. Spot secret doors within 5 ft. Gnoll - +1 natural armor bonus Gnome, forest – 20 ft. base land speed, Small size, +2 racial bonus to Listen and Craft (alchemy) checks, +4 racial bonus to Hide (+8 in forest) Gnome, rock – 20 ft. base land speed, Small size, +2 racial bonus to Listen and Craft (alchemy) checks Gnome, svirfneblin - 20 ft. base land speed, Small size, +2 racial bonus to Listen and Craft (alchemy) checks, +2 racial bonus to Hide (+4 when underground), Stonecunning. Goblin – Small size, +4 racial bonus to Move Silently & Ride Halfling, lightfoot – 20 ft. base land speed, Small size, +2 racial bonus to Climb, Jump, Listen and Move Silently. Halfling, tallfellow - 20 ft. base land speed, Small size, +2 racial bonus to Spot, Listen and Search. Spot secret doors within 5 ft. Halfling, deep - 20 ft. base land speed, Small size, Stonecunning, +2 racial bonus to Listen, +2 racial bonus to Appraise and Craft checks involving stone or metal items. Hobgoblin - +4 racial bonus to Move Silently Kobold – Small size, +1 natural armor bonus, +2 racial bonus to Craft (trapmaking), Profession (miner) and Search. Lizardfolk - +5 Natural Armor Bonus, +4 racial bonus to Balance, Jump & Swim, 2 Claws (primary) and 1 Bite (secondary) for 1d4 each. Locathah – 10 ft. base land speed, 60 ft. Swim speed, +3 natural armor bonus, +8 racial bonus to swim checks, can take 10 on Swim checks even when endangered, can use the Run action while swimming. Merfolk - 5 ft. base land speed, 50 ft. Swim speed, +8 racial bonus to swim checks, can take 10 on Swim checks even when endangered, can use the Run action while swimming. Orc & half-orc – nothing. Troglodyte - +6 natural armor bonus, Multi-attack, +4 racial bonus to Hide (+8 in rocky or underground areas), 2 Claws (primary) and 1 Bite (secondary) for 1d4 each. Note that the LGCS specifically states that you can only change into base creatures that appear in the Monster Manual. Since humans do not appear in any form in the Monster Manual, technically you cannot Alter Self, Polymorph or even Shapechange into one, even if you started out as one. I imagine that 99.9% of the LG judges would ignore that technicallity, but it is kind of funny that it is there.
copper_wyrmling 08-10-06, 08:48 PM	Note that, by the FAQ, humans lose their extra feat and skill points when they get Alter Self'ed or Polymorphed :rolleyes: This can get very bad if you needed that feat / skill points to qualify for a prestige class or feat chain.
ShinAkuma2 08-10-06, 10:45 PM	I've also seen alter self used for the disguise effect Well, that's a viable application of the spell, but I don't think I'll be using it that much. Keoland doesn't have many opportunities for disguises to matter. Still, one never knows when it'll come in handy outside of region, I guess. Thanks for the list, trollbill. I forgot Goblins are available choices, and Goblins are my favorite small race. ^_^ Also, knowing I can become a Half-Elf for the bonus on social skills could be helpful. I don't think you can get things like Stonecunning or an Elf's secret door detection, though. You only get "the physical qualities of the new form", which are pretty well-defined. You don't get "any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted...under physical qualities". Otherwise, you could use a Merfolk's Amphibious ability, or a Lizardfolk's Hold Breath, which I wish I could use for those underwater adventures.
twells 08-10-06, 11:40 PM	Note that, by the FAQ, humans lose their extra feat and skill points when they get Alter Self'ed or Polymorphed :rolleyes: This can get very bad if you needed that feat / skill points to qualify for a prestige class or feat chain. Given that Humans have traits of a bonus feat and skill points per level, if you Altered Self into a Human, would you gain an extra feat, and skill points equal to 4 + (your level - 1)?
Puggle Halfwine 08-10-06, 11:57 PM	Given that Humans have traits of a bonus feat and skill points per level, if you Altered Self into a Human, would you gain an extra feat, and skill points equal to 4 + (your level - 1)? According to the FAQ, yes. Which is... problematic. Find a cool weapon? Need proficiency? Turn into a human and pick the weapon proficiency required. I mean, c'mon. I'm sure most of us can think of neat uses for one bonus feat...
copper_wyrmling 08-11-06, 05:38 AM	According to the FAQ, yes. Which is... problematic. Find a cool weapon? Need proficiency? Turn into a human and pick the weapon proficiency required. I mean, c'mon. I'm sure most of us can think of neat uses for one bonus feat... Uh... no :P The FAQ says that the human feat and skill points are an extraordinary special quality derived from race - which is not the same as a "racial skill bonus" or "racial bonus feat". Alter Self and Polymorph do not generally grant the extraordinary special qualities of the new form, they just take away the ones you've got. Shapechange would do it, but only in the high-level campaign. For example, a troll polymorphed into an elf loses its regeneration. An elf polymorphed into a troll does not gain regeneration. A human sorcerer Alter Self'ed into a troglodyte loses her extra feat. A troglodyte sorcerer Alter Self'ed into a human does not gain an extra feat. It just means that if you Polymorph my sorcerer, she either forgets how to shoot into melee (loses Point Blank Shot, which means Precise Shot stops working), or she loses five levels of spellcasting (loses Magical Aptitude, which is the prerequisite for Wild Mage). Also, she forgets everything she knows about dragons (farewell, Knowledge (Arcana) ranks). If someone Polymorphs my cleric, she forgets everything she knows about magic (bye-bye Spellcraft), and a lot of her training in meditation goes out the window (loses Skill Focus:Concentration and a bunch of Concentration ranks). Changing form is apparently a very traumatic experience for humans, but the other races take it in their stride :rolleyes:
Oogar 08-11-06, 06:59 AM	So, what does this mean for a human Master of Many Forms that took both of the required feats (Endurance and Alertness) at first level? As soon as they turn into anything, they forget how to be a Master of Many Forms and revert back?
trollbill 08-11-06, 11:28 AM	I don't think you can get things like Stonecunning or an Elf's secret door detection, though. You only get "the physical qualities of the new form", which are pretty well-defined. You don't get "any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted...under physical qualities". Otherwise, you could use a Merfolk's Amphibious ability, or a Lizardfolk's Hold Breath, which I wish I could use for those underwater adventures. If you take an absolute literal translation of the rules, they would not get Stonecunning or Detect secret doors because these are not, by exact wording, racial bonuses to skill checks. However, Stonecunning is essentially a circumstantial racial bonus to Search checks (Stonecunning flat out says it gives you a +2 racial bonus to Search checks for certain things), and the Elf's detect secret doors ability is described in the exact same bullet point as their racial bonuses to actual skill checks. Because of this, I would argue that both are figurative, if not literal, racial 'bonuses' to skill checks. Well, that's a viable application of the spell, but I don't think I'll be using it that much. Keoland doesn't have many opportunities for disguises to matter. Still, one never knows when it'll come in handy outside of region, I guess. When I started with my Sorcerer, I had the usual 2 1st-level spell limit at level 1. I chose Color Spray because it is a very powerful combat spell at low levels. And I picked Disguise Self for role-playing reasons because my character has the Draconic Heritage (silver) feat. This gives him Disguise as a class skill and the spell seemed a natural choice. Of course, with only 2 first level spells to choose from until 3rd-level, you start looking for creative ways of making both spells as useful as possible. I soon found that Disguise Self was easily as powerful, if not more so, than Color Spray. You just had to look for ways of using it. I used this spell in almost every adventure I have participated in. Here are some examples of ways I found to use it: Walked unaccosted through a hostile city and avoided a tough fight with some guards by disguising myself as the head of the local church. Avoided an obviously very tough battle with some goblin worg riders by disguising myself as an officer in the Army of Ulek and using bluff and mundane trickery to convince them they were surrounded by a military patrol. When a stubborn innkeeper refused to let us search the room of an assault victim, I changed into the victim to gain access. Nearly avoided a battle with some pirates by disguising myself as one. The ‘nearly’ was only because one of our party decided he didn’t want to avoid the battle.
Puggle Halfwine 08-11-06, 12:56 PM	Uh... no :P Upon rereading the FAQ I stand corrected. Opps. Still, it should be noted that you can't (read: probably shouldn't?) choose which feat/skill points are your human bonus ones on the fly- if you plan on polymorphing a lot, you should probably pick one and stick with it. Your milage may vary, of course...
trollbill 08-11-06, 01:04 PM	Upon rereading the FAQ I stand corrected. Opps. Still, it should be noted that you can't (read: probably shouldn't?) choose which feat/skill points are your human bonus ones on the fly- if you plan on polymorphing a lot, you should probably pick one and stick with it. Your milage may vary, of course... Here's the next fun quirky rules question. If you Alter Self from a human to a human, do you still lose the feat and skills?
ShinAkuma2 08-11-06, 02:05 PM	Here's the next fun quirky rules question. If you Alter Self from a human to a human, do you still lose the feat and skills? Ugh, that's just lame.
JohnduBois 08-11-06, 02:19 PM	Here's my favorite Alter Self weirdness: Since you lose all your racial Ex abilities and don't gain the Ex abilities of the race you Alter into, whenever my dwarf bard Alters into a Troglodyte, he technically loses darkvision, even though both races have it... I would like to note, though, that no DM has ever enforced this rule, even when I went Lawful Good about it and pointed it out to them.
Puggle Halfwine 08-11-06, 06:38 PM	I would like to note, though, that no DM has ever enforced this rule, even when I went Lawful Good about it and pointed it out to them. When I'm running games, I just throw that under the 'It's Stupid, Ignore It' rule. This is opposed to the 'It's Stupid But It's Gotta Be Done' rule. Good job on pointing it out, however. +1 Karma.