"Agnostic" clerics in Greyhawk [Archive] - Wizards Community

"Agnostic" clerics in Greyhawk [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
LGMoses
12-23-06, 07:46 PM What are the rules on clerics who choose not to worship a deity in Greyhawk and domains?
jstorrie
12-23-06, 07:49 PM They don't exist. All clerics in Living Greyhawk must serve a deity.
LGMoses
12-23-06, 08:07 PM really? I'm sure i've seen one or two before? Luckily, I know of a god with the two domains this player chose. I think I've seen one or two before on some boards before.

Regardless, I'll easily rectify this problem.

I'm glad it worked out this way really. I don't like the idea of "agnostic" clerics.
Arvagor
12-23-06, 09:41 PM While the PHB permits clerics to be devoted to an ideal (i.e., alignment) or a deity, LG requires all clerics to worship a specific deity. This is specified on page 10 of the LGCS and page 2 of the Deities document.
Japangirl
12-23-06, 10:18 PM Honestly, agnostic clerics don't make a lot of sense in LG. I mean, everyone knows the gods exist: they channel divine energy through their most devoted followers, answer questions directly through commune spells, can be reached in their own home planes by really powerful followers, and try to take over the world (yes, I'm glaring at the demi-god who owns my home right now). Devoted to an ideal makes sense, but agnostic? That isn't a very good description of a cleric without a god in a game system where the gods are an inescapable part of life.
LGMoses
12-23-06, 10:29 PM i was using it to identify a cleric w/o a god that a player who just moved to my area made used so he could basically get his pick of domains. I had read it in the PHB and just finished up another system where it was legal so there was some crossover. Agnostic was just the term I used to reference what he was doing. Chill out.
jstorrie
12-23-06, 10:37 PM You can play a non-devoted druid or paladin, but getting them domains will prove exceedingly tricky. Seeker of the Misty Isle could get you travel (which isn't very useful without cleric levels); Warpriest could get you Glory/Domination. AFAIK, that's about it - Contemplative specifically requires that you serve a deity, Church Inquisitor requires a church, and Radiant Servant has religious requirements.
LGMoses
12-23-06, 10:39 PM yaw've already answered my question. I feel dumb for not looking in the LGCS first before posting.
Arvagor
12-23-06, 10:40 PM Honestly, agnostic clerics don't make a lot of sense in LG. I mean, everyone knows the gods exist: they channel divine energy through their most devoted followers, answer questions directly through commune spells, can be reached in their own home planes by really powerful followers, and try to take over the world (yes, I'm glaring at the demi-god who owns my home right now).Agnostic is a term with many interpretations, but it's a perfectly valid stance for a cleric to take, even in Greyhawk (Living or otherwise). One could look at a magic user or a bard or a sorcerer and ask, "Where does their power come from? Is it internal, or do they simply harness the magical energy that is inherent in the world?" There's nothing that prevents one who calls himself a cleric from gaining his powers and abilities in the same way -- I'm not talking in game terms, but in the way a PC might see the world.

Iuz? St. Cuthbert? Sure, we can admit they exist, but they're not gods -- just mortals who obtained and internalized lots and lots of magical power -- witness the fact that Murlynd, Zagyg, Vecna, etc., used to be "mere" mortals before they were "deities".

That's the view an agnostic cleric in Greyhawk might hold...
Japangirl
12-24-06, 12:43 AM What about Pelor and Ehlonna and Heironeus and such? I'm pretty sure some of the greater deities weren't mortals first . . .
LGMoses
12-24-06, 01:08 AM As I understand Heroneous was a human and had meersalm poured over him. This would mean that Hextor was also human. What I do know for certain through some recent research is that Heroneous is one of the 9 gods unleashed on the world by Lord Robilar in his earlier adventuring days (when he was still a pc) from within the bowels of Castle Greyhawk. The nine were: Hextor, heroneous, Obad-hai, Tritherion, Iuz, Ralishaz, Erythnul, Olidammara, and Celestian. Kinda cool to know.

makes me wanna know, Where can i get access to some meersalm?
Simpi
12-24-06, 03:55 AM The nine were: Hextor, heroneous, Obad-hai, Tritherion, Iuz, Ralishaz, Erythnul, Olidammara, and Celestian. Kinda cool to know.

makes me wanna know, Where can i get access to some meersalm?

Actually I dont think the 9 demigods have been fully named in any official resource. Few of them have been but remaining have been left as a mystery. There are articles in Canonfire (among others) which might make theories about said deities but according to my information, no official supplement has named them all.

Sampo Haarlaa
Naerie Triad
Arvagor
12-24-06, 10:50 AM What about Pelor and Ehlonna and Heironeus and such? I'm pretty sure some of the greater deities weren't mortals first . . .Adopting the "agnostic" view, the cleric may say that they simply ascended to "godhood" before humanity (elvenity? dwarvenity?) knew of their existence and could record it... :ghosted:
Britt
12-24-06, 12:34 PM Sampo is right; the list has never been spelled out anywhere. For another thing, that list above doesn't match what has been spelled out, since Zuoken (going off memory, pretty sure that's right)was definitely in there.
Arvagor
12-24-06, 05:14 PM Sampo is right; the list has never been spelled out anywhere. For another thing, that list above doesn't match what has been spelled out, since Zuoken (going off memory, pretty sure that's right)was definitely in there.
I think the only ones that have ever been identified for sure were Iuz (CE), Rudd (CN), Wastri (LN), and Merikka (LG) (and the LGCS agrees). If you want to stick with the progression, you'd need to find deities of the remaining alignments (N, NG, CG, NE, and LE) that were of demigod power level.

Zuoken is suspected to be one of the nine (since his followers have determined he is imprisoned somewhere on Oerth), so he may account for the Neutral "slot". You could also use Ye-Cind for the CG slot, Damaran for the NE slot, and Chitza-Atlan for the LE slot (I'm not a fan of the last two, as it just feels wrong that Zagyg would gave gone to deities from outside the Flanaess proper -- Damaran is Touv, and Chitza-Atlan is Olman).

The problem remains, however, that there's no deity of demigod power that is Neutral Good in alignment. You'd have to either drop down to Hero-God status (in which case you have a wealth to choose from: Azor'alq, Heward, Johydee, and Keoghtom) -- or bump up to Lesser Deity status (giving you Atroa, Berei, Lydia, Myrhiss, or Zodal -- sticking with just humanocentric deities, at that seems most appropriate).
Arvagor
12-24-06, 05:19 PM Britt -- this got me to thinking (and maybe it belongs in another thread), why do we allow clerics to worship the various hero-gods (such as Kelanen or Heward or Johydee, etc.), when by the rules, deities of hero-god status cannot grant spells? Do we ignore the divine rank rules for the various Greyhawk deities?
Britt
12-24-06, 05:40 PM No idea, but I don't think it's worth creating rules or making official statements on it. Just assume that their patron deity is granting their followers spells, or something like that.
Eagle Prince
12-24-06, 05:54 PM There is an answer to this in the back of Defenders of the Faith and probably Deities and Demigods as well.
Arvagor
12-24-06, 06:04 PM Well, not having either of those sources, what do they say about it?
LGMoses
12-24-06, 07:51 PM http://www.pied-piper-publishing.com/index.php/robilar_remembers/lord_robilar_co

I got it from here. i was just googling about for some info on Lord Robilar. He seems pretty cool.
Eagle Prince
12-24-06, 08:21 PM Well, not having either of those sources, what do they say about it?

Uh, just basically what Britt already said more or less. They intermediate with some other power that can grant their worshipers spells.

I think it might also be in the Book of Vile Darkness, letting you worship the archdevils and demon princes and still get spells.
LachlarlanIII
12-27-06, 02:26 PM What about Pelor and Ehlonna and Heironeus and such? I'm pretty sure some of the greater deities weren't mortals first . . .

Many learned scholars in Sigil, the city at the center of the planes, would disagree. They would instead say most deities aren't immortal at all, but are merely mortals that have obtained immeasurable power.

Then again this isn't Planescape.

Where is my Living Planescape?! :mad:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LGMoses 12-23-06, 07:46 PM	What are the rules on clerics who choose not to worship a deity in Greyhawk and domains?
jstorrie 12-23-06, 07:49 PM	They don't exist. All clerics in Living Greyhawk must serve a deity.
LGMoses 12-23-06, 08:07 PM	really? I'm sure i've seen one or two before? Luckily, I know of a god with the two domains this player chose. I think I've seen one or two before on some boards before. Regardless, I'll easily rectify this problem. I'm glad it worked out this way really. I don't like the idea of "agnostic" clerics.
Arvagor 12-23-06, 09:41 PM	While the PHB permits clerics to be devoted to an ideal (i.e., alignment) or a deity, LG requires all clerics to worship a specific deity. This is specified on page 10 of the LGCS and page 2 of the Deities document.
Japangirl 12-23-06, 10:18 PM	Honestly, agnostic clerics don't make a lot of sense in LG. I mean, everyone knows the gods exist: they channel divine energy through their most devoted followers, answer questions directly through commune spells, can be reached in their own home planes by really powerful followers, and try to take over the world (yes, I'm glaring at the demi-god who owns my home right now). Devoted to an ideal makes sense, but agnostic? That isn't a very good description of a cleric without a god in a game system where the gods are an inescapable part of life.
LGMoses 12-23-06, 10:29 PM	i was using it to identify a cleric w/o a god that a player who just moved to my area made used so he could basically get his pick of domains. I had read it in the PHB and just finished up another system where it was legal so there was some crossover. Agnostic was just the term I used to reference what he was doing. Chill out.
jstorrie 12-23-06, 10:37 PM	You can play a non-devoted druid or paladin, but getting them domains will prove exceedingly tricky. Seeker of the Misty Isle could get you travel (which isn't very useful without cleric levels); Warpriest could get you Glory/Domination. AFAIK, that's about it - Contemplative specifically requires that you serve a deity, Church Inquisitor requires a church, and Radiant Servant has religious requirements.
LGMoses 12-23-06, 10:39 PM	yaw've already answered my question. I feel dumb for not looking in the LGCS first before posting.
Arvagor 12-23-06, 10:40 PM	Honestly, agnostic clerics don't make a lot of sense in LG. I mean, everyone knows the gods exist: they channel divine energy through their most devoted followers, answer questions directly through commune spells, can be reached in their own home planes by really powerful followers, and try to take over the world (yes, I'm glaring at the demi-god who owns my home right now).Agnostic is a term with many interpretations, but it's a perfectly valid stance for a cleric to take, even in Greyhawk (Living or otherwise). One could look at a magic user or a bard or a sorcerer and ask, "Where does their power come from? Is it internal, or do they simply harness the magical energy that is inherent in the world?" There's nothing that prevents one who calls himself a cleric from gaining his powers and abilities in the same way -- I'm not talking in game terms, but in the way a PC might see the world. Iuz? St. Cuthbert? Sure, we can admit they exist, but they're not gods -- just mortals who obtained and internalized lots and lots of magical power -- witness the fact that Murlynd, Zagyg, Vecna, etc., used to be "mere" mortals before they were "deities". That's the view an agnostic cleric in Greyhawk might hold...
Japangirl 12-24-06, 12:43 AM	What about Pelor and Ehlonna and Heironeus and such? I'm pretty sure some of the greater deities weren't mortals first . . .
LGMoses 12-24-06, 01:08 AM	As I understand Heroneous was a human and had meersalm poured over him. This would mean that Hextor was also human. What I do know for certain through some recent research is that Heroneous is one of the 9 gods unleashed on the world by Lord Robilar in his earlier adventuring days (when he was still a pc) from within the bowels of Castle Greyhawk. The nine were: Hextor, heroneous, Obad-hai, Tritherion, Iuz, Ralishaz, Erythnul, Olidammara, and Celestian. Kinda cool to know. makes me wanna know, Where can i get access to some meersalm?
Simpi 12-24-06, 03:55 AM	The nine were: Hextor, heroneous, Obad-hai, Tritherion, Iuz, Ralishaz, Erythnul, Olidammara, and Celestian. Kinda cool to know. makes me wanna know, Where can i get access to some meersalm? Actually I dont think the 9 demigods have been fully named in any official resource. Few of them have been but remaining have been left as a mystery. There are articles in Canonfire (among others) which might make theories about said deities but according to my information, no official supplement has named them all. Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad
Arvagor 12-24-06, 10:50 AM	What about Pelor and Ehlonna and Heironeus and such? I'm pretty sure some of the greater deities weren't mortals first . . .Adopting the "agnostic" view, the cleric may say that they simply ascended to "godhood" before humanity (elvenity? dwarvenity?) knew of their existence and could record it... :ghosted:
Britt 12-24-06, 12:34 PM	Sampo is right; the list has never been spelled out anywhere. For another thing, that list above doesn't match what has been spelled out, since Zuoken (going off memory, pretty sure that's right)was definitely in there.
Arvagor 12-24-06, 05:14 PM	Sampo is right; the list has never been spelled out anywhere. For another thing, that list above doesn't match what has been spelled out, since Zuoken (going off memory, pretty sure that's right)was definitely in there. I think the only ones that have ever been identified for sure were Iuz (CE), Rudd (CN), Wastri (LN), and Merikka (LG) (and the LGCS agrees). If you want to stick with the progression, you'd need to find deities of the remaining alignments (N, NG, CG, NE, and LE) that were of demigod power level. Zuoken is suspected to be one of the nine (since his followers have determined he is imprisoned somewhere on Oerth), so he may account for the Neutral "slot". You could also use Ye-Cind for the CG slot, Damaran for the NE slot, and Chitza-Atlan for the LE slot (I'm not a fan of the last two, as it just feels wrong that Zagyg would gave gone to deities from outside the Flanaess proper -- Damaran is Touv, and Chitza-Atlan is Olman). The problem remains, however, that there's no deity of demigod power that is Neutral Good in alignment. You'd have to either drop down to Hero-God status (in which case you have a wealth to choose from: Azor'alq, Heward, Johydee, and Keoghtom) -- or bump up to Lesser Deity status (giving you Atroa, Berei, Lydia, Myrhiss, or Zodal -- sticking with just humanocentric deities, at that seems most appropriate).
Arvagor 12-24-06, 05:19 PM	Britt -- this got me to thinking (and maybe it belongs in another thread), why do we allow clerics to worship the various hero-gods (such as Kelanen or Heward or Johydee, etc.), when by the rules, deities of hero-god status cannot grant spells? Do we ignore the divine rank rules for the various Greyhawk deities?
Britt 12-24-06, 05:40 PM	No idea, but I don't think it's worth creating rules or making official statements on it. Just assume that their patron deity is granting their followers spells, or something like that.
Eagle Prince 12-24-06, 05:54 PM	There is an answer to this in the back of Defenders of the Faith and probably Deities and Demigods as well.
Arvagor 12-24-06, 06:04 PM	Well, not having either of those sources, what do they say about it?
LGMoses 12-24-06, 07:51 PM	http://www.pied-piper-publishing.com/index.php/robilar_remembers/lord_robilar_co I got it from here. i was just googling about for some info on Lord Robilar. He seems pretty cool.
Eagle Prince 12-24-06, 08:21 PM	Well, not having either of those sources, what do they say about it? Uh, just basically what Britt already said more or less. They intermediate with some other power that can grant their worshipers spells. I think it might also be in the Book of Vile Darkness, letting you worship the archdevils and demon princes and still get spells.
LachlarlanIII 12-27-06, 02:26 PM	What about Pelor and Ehlonna and Heironeus and such? I'm pretty sure some of the greater deities weren't mortals first . . . Many learned scholars in Sigil, the city at the center of the planes, would disagree. They would instead say most deities aren't immortal at all, but are merely mortals that have obtained immeasurable power. Then again this isn't Planescape. Where is my Living Planescape?! :mad: