Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mattastrophic 08-20-07, 10:37 AM	So, the big shock is slowly wearing off, and I've called my gaming buddies from the four corners of the country (well, three to be precise, but four sounds more epic) and come up with what to do with the rest of time we've been given. First comes the assumptions phase. To make the rest of my proposals valid, I have to assume several things about our LG gamers. Now, I wish to keep discussion to the proposals themselves, not these assumptions, so to maintain some semblance of order in this chaotic period, and to avoid the flame wars going on in other threads. SO DON'T POST ABOUT THEM. -We still want to play. -We will wish to play one character almost exclusively. Why play a secondary through the End of Everything? -We aren't concerned very much with that elusive ghost called Balance, since every PC is being forcibly retired anyways. -We don't want to have to look for access to anything. We want to live out our dreams for our PCs instead of being stuck looking for access. -We don't want to start new characters for Greyhawk Ruins or anything at all. -The RPGA does not want RPGA conventions to die before they can release their new campaign. SO, a few things will need to happen to make this final year of LG, and the transition year into Living FR, work: -Do away with TUs. For 2007 as well as 2008. When our primaries run out, we won't be able to attend any more conventions. I know I can't for the remainder of this year and I'll be sharply limited in the next, due to TUs. I also would hate to see someone not be able to play the grand finale because he decided to play a Y7 module that robbed 26 TUs from him, or have to choose between his home region's finale and the campaign finale because he's at 2 TUs. It's the grand finale; why not remove any restrictions from being able play it? Also, if conventions receive a sharp decrease in attendance because we're all having to budget our TUs to be able to play all the Cores that lead up to the finale, they might not be around to support Living Forgotten Realms when it comes along. Also, the campaign's slated to end at Origins, yet there are plenty of existing RPGA conventions that take place after Origins. With the removal of TUs, those RPGA conventions will still be able to cater to their players, thus keeping them around for Living Forgotten Realms. On top of that, there's the issue with the remainder of 2007. TUs should be done away with there as well, for the same con-preserving reasons behind removing 2008's TUs. If people are almost exclusively playing their primaries, then when they run out of TUs for 2007, they won't be hitting any more conventions. So those conventions will probably have a sharp decrease in attendance, which may kill the cons for future years, thus hurting the RPGA's ability to support Living Forgotten Realms. I would also hate to hear a story about a con organizer who put down hundreds if not thousands of dollars to rent space for a late-in-the-year convention, then have no one come because the players who were looking into going suddenly couldn't because they ran out of TUs with their primary characters (for example: myself), and the organizer would be out a TON of money. -Use the High-Level campaign's Open/Closed access rules. For the grand finale, we shouldn't have to get bogged down in "I need access to item X, feat Y, or Prestige Class Z," which might have worked fine in a long-term campaign, but not so much in a suddenly-short-term one. If the rest of the campaign is to have an epic feel, such measures are more than appropriate to ensure one. With such a limited number adventures remaining, very many pieces of access probably won't have time to be made Open to the PCs who are looking. -Either remove the level cap, or let us stay at 15th all the way through the grand finale. It would really suck to hear a story of someone having to choose between his home region's finale and the campaign's finale because he's 1000 XP from 16th. Once again, why not remove restrictions from being able to play the finale? -Remove that APL +4 rule. With a bunch of people playing their primaries nearly exclusively, table forming just got a lot harder. All that rule has done, at least in the five times I've been booted from tables since it's inception, has restricted play opportunities. I'd also hate to hear a story of someone sitting down for the grand finale with his 15th at a convention and being booted because his table-mates average to APL 10. -Allow existing characters to play the Greyhawk Ruins modules. We don't want to make new PCs, so at this point we'd much rather play any other module than start a new character (which we know is going away) for Greyhawk Ruins. More later as the ideas flow and the discussion flies. -Matt
Infinitive 08-20-07, 10:44 AM	Gotta say, Matt, I like your suggestions. We'll probably hear something from the Circle in the near future as to the revised rules for the remainder of LG. But really, the quote in your sig is what inspired me. I play in the Shield Lands; we just started the Great Crusade to reclaim our homes. And you know what? It really is time to go Spartan here. I'm gonna go change my sig after this.
Mattastrophic 08-20-07, 10:56 AM	But really, the quote in your sig is what inspired me. I play in the Shield Lands; we just started the Great Crusade to reclaim our homes. And you know what? It really is time to go Spartan here. I'm gonna go change my sig after this. Well, several things happened: -I was on the verge of ragequitting LG altogether. -I spoke to my awesome gaming buddies, who came up with a country-spanning, coast-to-coast multi-con tour of Greyhawk, hitting all our home regions and participating in all their finales in one last, glorious ride. -The discussion turned very epic. We spend all our gold, break out all our favors, throw out all our one-shot items we've been saving for years, all for, well, one last shot at glory. Instead of anger at the end coming, why don't we instead focus on making it one hell of an ending? Instead of getting angry and ragequitting, why not prepare for glory? -Matt
TetsujinOni 08-20-07, 11:30 AM	Well, several things happened: Instead of anger at the end coming, why don't we instead focus on making it one hell of an ending? Instead of getting angry and ragequitting, why not prepare for glory? -Matt It's not like we can use those consumables next year, right? And all favors, all items, and even all characters... are consumables. You left WHAT alive in the Dreadwood?
Jay_Ibero_911 08-20-07, 11:40 AM	I have one character who will do his damndest to save up and purchase a staff of power he has access to via favor...if at all possible I plan use it for a retributive strike on some major villain in the finale...if he gets lucky and gets sent to another plain of existance, it gives me a good reason to recreate him in the new LFR campaign...
bhale187 08-20-07, 11:42 AM	Sounds good to me, I especially like the idea of droping TUs for the remainder of the campaign.
Hariman 08-20-07, 12:04 PM	Dropping TUs would be a dream for me. My primary lost about HALF of his TUs to slavery, a certain spirit tattoo, a favor reincarnate, a half cost raise dead and ONE TU of crafting. I'd love to be able to play him again before January. Every mod I play with my sorcerer is another mod I can't play with him next year.
Arassuil 08-20-07, 12:20 PM	Well, I heard from one of our Triad members who was at GenCon this past weekend, that next year they will be dropping TUs completely for mods, to allow players to be able to play as many mods with whichever character they wish. However, since I am spouting this information second-handed now, I would advise that it be taken with a grain of salt. That being said, I like your proposals. I hope that they are implemented into the end of the campaign. In addition, once I finish Red Hand of Doom, my Cleric will be using a certain favor he received in one of the Bright Land mods to stop time in the finale (assuming that he gets played). Not to mention every other favor that he has. ;)
Umbra_Kaitou 08-20-07, 12:25 PM	Its also, technically, second hand, but my friend who got to go gave me a call after the RPGA meeting at gencon, and in the summary i got, it included that all modules will cost 0 TUs in 2008
Mattastrophic 08-20-07, 12:33 PM	Even if TUs are removed for 2008, what my proposals do is tackle the issue of what will need to be done beyond that to make the campaign end well. -Matt
heirodule 08-20-07, 12:37 PM	Hey cool, my PC can stop time on a cert. That'll come in handy in the blowout! :D
Arassuil 08-20-07, 12:39 PM	Even if TUs are removed for 2008, what my proposals do is tackle the issue of what will need to be done beyond that to make the campaign end well. -Matt Oh, I wholeheartedly agree with you. Just wanted to post that rumor I heard from GenCon.
Hariman 08-20-07, 01:35 PM	Its also, technically, second hand, but my friend who got to go gave me a call after the RPGA meeting at gencon, and in the summary i got, it included that all modules will cost 0 TUs in 2008 If that's true, then they should start it sooner. Some of us have primary characters who are already out of TUs. Say, maybe, September? Although this does mean that I could play Red Hand in LG. And get slaughtered like most of the other people in my area.
Lightblade 08-20-07, 01:55 PM	I was at the Members meeting, and while they did not directly say "all adventures will take 0 TU next year", they *very strongly* hinted at it. Not sure if crafting / metaorgs / other time constraints will go away, though.
Britt 08-20-07, 06:15 PM	Thanks for the suggestions and the positive attitude, Matt. That is exactly the kind of attitude I think is best: disappointed that LG is ending, but wanting to make the best out of what we have left. That's how the Circle is approaching it and I want to help pass that on to the Triads and players. As for the suggestions, some are already under consideration, and the others will be discussed. There is already a plan for handling TUs in 2008 to allow more play opportunities.
clannagh 08-20-07, 07:16 PM	If that's true, then they should start it sooner. Some of us have primary characters who are already out of TUs. Say, maybe, September? Although this does mean that I could play Red Hand in LG. And get slaughtered like most of the other people in my area. Most of my close gaming circle all started in 595 or 596. They virtually all have primaries around level 8 or 9. They already have zero time units for this year with at least one character in some cases several. Even with 0 TU for 2008 it will be hard for them to get to retirement as most have played virtually all current mods including adaptables leaving a total of 18 new mods next year in region. Retiring at least one character is something a lot of people would like to achieve. I like the suggestions but would like to add one more. - make one or two Fiesta style slots available at all major conventions (opening up all regions for home play would be bad)
Mattastrophic 08-20-07, 07:36 PM	Thanks for the suggestions and the positive attitude, Matt. Thank you, thank you. As I mentioned, I worked through my own ragequit phase over the weekend, and then started working with my gaming buddies on coming up with ways to make the endgame be as fun and as memorable as possible. I've expanded on my reasoning for removing Y7 TUs and added opening Greyhawk Ruins for all PCs, by the way. -Matt
Mommy was an Orc 08-20-07, 08:12 PM	Thank you, thank you. As I mentioned, I worked through my own ragequit phase over the weekend, and then started working with my gaming buddies on coming up with ways to make the endgame be as fun and as memorable as possible. Yeah, it was harder at GenCon - I was judging a slot right after the RPGA meeting...fortunately, I loved the mod(Heart's Desire) and had a good table, so I made sure not to spoil it for them. Most of the ideas make sense to me. I think open access is asking for trouble. It might be better to allow access to a specific number of any rules options. Maybe you can trade in a card from your stack for access to any NONC item.
LGMoses 08-20-07, 09:09 PM	"Yeoman of the Free League! Raise the spear high and fight like there is no tomorrow!"
Mattastrophic 08-20-07, 09:33 PM	Most of the ideas make sense to me. I think open access is asking for trouble. It might be better to allow access to a specific number of any rules options. Maybe you can trade in a card from your stack for access to any NONC item. What I'd mainly want to shoot for is something similar to the High-Level Campaign: Either it's Open or Closed, nothing in between. So some NONC things would be made Open, others Closed. Point being: with a limited number of modules remaining, let's focus on the storylines, not the access-hunting game. Heck, it'll even serve as an equalizer between the haves and the have-nots of NONC access as the campaign concludes. Though the idea of, say, letting us pick five NONC things to Open up, that would work, too. -Matt
_metz_ 08-20-07, 09:58 PM	I already posted in a previous post that this was my opinion as well. I totally agree, and feel that it would allow us to send our characters off with a bang. I am very serious in that I would actually pay to travel to cons for the rest of this year (still like 3 to go at least) if I could play my Primary level 10 who has run out of TUs. That way I could at least retire him at the end of the campaign. not sure about the access thing, I have no strong opinions either way. I don't really feel I need it, I just want more TUs!
frupton 08-21-07, 01:00 AM	Matt, Great suggestions. My comments: -Do away with TUs. For 2007 as well as 2008. I agree completely. Whether or not I can get my 2nd level Cleric up to level 4 or 5 in the next year or so is suddenly much less of a motivation. When my primary is out of TU's, I'll probably just not play much more LG for the rest of this year, and if he runs out in 2008, likewise. -Use the High-Level campaign's Open/Closed access rules. While this would be fun, it's perhaps not as crucial as several of your other points. It's true that the access rules are to maintain balance, and that's not as important as it used to be, as the "ultimate balance" will come to LG on 1/1/2009. But it would also destroy the thrill of receiving AR's at the end of mods for the next 16 months. I think I gotta still support the current access system. -Either remove the level cap, or let us stay at 15th all the way through the grand finale. I am not familiar enough with high-level play to know if this is too unbalancing or not. I agree it would be merciful to find some way not to force 15th level chars to retire from now until the end. -Remove that APL +4 rule. Tough call. Tables with parties that are too unbalanced aren't much fun for those at the low end, IMHO. I'd like people to be able to play their primaries, but only at the expense of arbitrary strictures, not at the expense of the fun of the other players. -Allow existing characters to play the Greyhawk Ruins modules. Agree completely. What's the point of starting a new 1st level character today?
Britt 08-21-07, 01:19 AM	I can say that it's pretty definite that access is not going to be opened up, regional play rules are not going to be relaxed (allowing play out of region), and APL+4 rule is likely not going away. We are talking about the rest, and other ideas.
clannagh 08-21-07, 02:56 AM	I can say that it's pretty definite that access is not going to be opened up, regional play rules are not going to be relaxed (allowing play out of region), and APL+4 rule is likely not going away. We are talking about the rest, and other ideas. Well allowing Feista slots at a few more conventions would not be relaxing regional play rules .. just expanding an already implemented feature of major conferences.
dragon2007 08-21-07, 03:31 AM	I can say that it's pretty definite that access is not going to be opened up, regional play rules are not going to be relaxed (allowing play out of region), and APL+4 rule is likely not going away. We are talking about the rest, and other ideas. If relaxing regional play rules is not being considered, how exactly will play opportunities be increased? Dan
paigeoliver 08-21-07, 07:55 AM	I am hoping play opportunities won't be increased the way they have been in the past, specifically I am thinking about the "Expanded Premiere" program which apparently magically increases play opportunity by decreasing the time the modules are allowed to be played outside of major expensive conventions. :D
Mithreinmaethor 08-21-07, 07:58 AM	If relaxing regional play rules is not being considered, how exactly will play opportunities be increased? Dan I dont know not having to worry about tu's expands possibilities tremendously. Especially if you have that one character you want to ramp up for the final going out with a bank module
kjenks 08-21-07, 08:06 AM	To march a thousand paladins to the heart of Dorakaa.
Mattastrophic 08-21-07, 09:28 AM	Tough call. Tables with parties that are too unbalanced aren't much fun for those at the low end, IMHO. I'd like people to be able to play their primaries, but only at the expense of arbitrary strictures, not at the expense of the fun of the other players. I recently experienced an interactive table that sported a spread of 12/13/6/6/6/7. Why? The 13 and my 12 were the only two signed up for that particular mission beyond 7th, and of course, there wasn't a spare judge to just run the two of us. (The judge also didn't follow the Triad's instructions to give the two of us our own encounters, but that's beside the point.) It wasn't fun for anyone, as we ended up having to do APL 10 and just wiped everything the interactive threw at us, even while trying to not be overwhelming. On the other hand, we were able to play. In that case, being a one-shot interactive, what would you have done? Told the 12 and 13 to pack their bags and go home? Let's flash-forward to the grand finale. By luck of muster, you end up with a spread of 15/7/9/8/10. What do you do? Tell the 15 to go home? -Matt
Anthraxus 08-21-07, 10:19 AM	I'd like to see the "No TU" for the rest of this year, please. I'd like to get in as much LG as I can with my Red Hand and highest level character, before I start focusing on LFR.
frupton 08-21-07, 11:57 AM	I recently experienced an interactive table that sported a spread of 12/13/6/6/6/7. Why? The 13 and my 12 were the only two signed up for that particular mission beyond 7th, and of course, there wasn't a spare judge to just run the two of us. (The judge also didn't follow the Triad's instructions to give the two of us our own encounters, but that's beside the point.) It wasn't fun for anyone, as we ended up having to do APL 10 and just wiped everything the interactive threw at us, even while trying to not be overwhelming. On the other hand, we were able to play. In that case, being a one-shot interactive, what would you have done? Told the 12 and 13 to pack their bags and go home? Let's flash-forward to the grand finale. By luck of muster, you end up with a spread of 15/7/9/8/10. What do you do? Tell the 15 to go home? -Matt I'm not an author, so I may be a bit out of my element here. But it sounds like the mod you cite in particular was designed such that it could handle APL +5/6 characters by giving them their own encounters. Maybe there are mods that should allow exceptions to the APL +4 rule. AFAIK most mods are not able to provide an appropriate challenge to APL +5/6 characters. Given your example, I would prefer to run a challenging adventure for the 7/8/9/10 that keeps them on the edge of their seats at APL 8 rather than let them tag along in boredom behind a 15 that mops up everything at APL 10. I do feel really bad for the 15 if he doesn't get to play, but I'd rather not entertain him at the expense of the enjoyment of four other players.
MichaelAhlf 08-21-07, 12:50 PM	I'm not an author, so I may be a bit out of my element here. But it sounds like the mod you cite in particular was designed such that it could handle APL +5/6 characters by giving them their own encounters. Maybe there are mods that should allow exceptions to the APL +4 rule. AFAIK most mods are not able to provide an appropriate challenge to APL +5/6 characters. Given your example, I would prefer to run a challenging adventure for the 7/8/9/10 that keeps them on the edge of their seats at APL 8 rather than let them tag along in boredom behind a 15 that mops up everything at APL 10. I do feel really bad for the 15 if he doesn't get to play, but I'd rather not entertain him at the expense of the enjoyment of four other players. I've been a level 11 at APL 6 who the DM made run from the fight, literally. The rest of the characters finished the mod while I and my 2 remaining points of Wisdom recuperated. I've played 5 levels down with my caster as well. I sat in the back, healed, and cast buffs and they all had a good time. Level 15 frontline fighter? Ok, I can see that. Then again, I remember the story of a guy who played precisely that way with a high-level Paladin who just sat in the back and let his mount function as the tank for the rest of the party. Again, everyone had fun. If someone wants to be a jerk, they can ruin it by walking the mod - but I've never done that, and I've never known anyone to do it.
Wolfstalker 08-23-07, 02:09 AM	I want to play my main PC in Red Hand of Doom this weekend. The problem is I won't have enough tus for anything else. let the tus go.
Fsi-Dib 08-23-07, 07:48 AM	I have no idea, how you organize games but I've never really encountered a scenario (not speaking about a module) where one person would have had a character of way higher level. If that would ever be the case, such players would be shun upon and denied access to any future games. (What? This is Naerie!) It's better to plan the games before the event, and have the players choose their character beforehand as well. This saves a lot of confusion. Also, this is why I have a rather broad range of characters. At the moment I lack a decent APL 6+ character (lvl 8 barbarian is tied to RHoD), but then I just wait for another table with lower level characters.
MichaelAhlf 08-23-07, 11:45 AM	I have no idea, how you organize games but I've never really encountered a scenario (not speaking about a module) where one person would have had a character of way higher level. If that would ever be the case, such players would be shun upon and denied access to any future games. (What? This is Naerie!) Any time you have a limited player/character selection, this can happen. Examples: Setting up 0-slots so that the DM's at a convention don't have to eat the mods. Setting up games at retire-party / end of year. Setting up games with people who don't get to play that often, and would rather only play one character (example: someone has a choice between the level 10 they have played for 5 years, or creating a new level 1 character that's likely to never be played again). It's better to plan the games before the event, and have the players choose their character beforehand as well. This saves a lot of confusion. And it can still happen. See above. Also, this is why I have a rather broad range of characters. At the moment I lack a decent APL 6+ character (lvl 8 barbarian is tied to RHoD), but then I just wait for another table with lower level characters. Lucky you. Not everyone does. Some people only play 1-2 characters and are uninterested in creating more, and some people just haven't played that long and have 1-2 characters of low level. And for some of them, "just wait for another table" is a rather rude thing to say when they're making a 2-hour (or more!) drive to get to a single-round game just for the sake of being able to play at all.
Fsi-Dib 08-23-07, 01:50 PM	Hmm, maybe it's just the cultural difference; nearly all Living Greyhawk games in my region happen within 20km. The good things about living in the capital area.
KarmaInferno 08-23-07, 02:31 PM	There is one thing about the USA that I notice seems difficult for a lot of non-US folks to really comprehend, unless they've actually been here and seen it. Just how damn big the country is. We have one state that you can literally drive for 800 miles and still be in the same state. I've driven to Gen Con from New York before, back when it was in Milwaukee. That's about a thousand miles each way. Took about a day and a half with breaks and a stop at a motel on the way catch some sleep. Never doing that again - I was already tired by the time I got to the con, lessenign my enjoyment when I was there, and by the time I got home I was so exhausted I had to take an extra day off from work just to recover. So yeah, traveling great distances to get anywhere is kinda normal for us. :D -karma
Fsi-Dib 08-23-07, 03:27 PM	Right you are, KarmaInferno. I do know that statistically USA and Europe are almost the same size. Now, when I think that you do use car to go around ... And I thought a 6 hour drive was exhausting. Nevertheless, a flight from Finland to Germany/UK can be as cheap as 20€ (that's about $30 or something like that).
Mithreinmaethor 08-23-07, 05:09 PM	Do we know what is going to happen to the adaptation of Ruins of Greyhawk ?
Infinitive 08-23-07, 05:41 PM	Yeah, Fsi, I'm doing a 4-hour one way trip tomorrow to go to my state's Renaissance Festival. The states has a whole different mentality about travel; we're just plain willing to pick up and go to a much greater degree than people from just about any other country (that I've had the pleasure to meet). I dunno... maybe the world just seems bigger to us over here because we've got a bit of a larger portion of it than the next guy. The downside of all that is that that sheer size (and our willingness to traverse it) has contributed significantly to our cultural resistance to alternative modes of transportation. The way many people see it is "If I have to have a car to drive home/3+ hours to see Mom/Dad/Bro/In-Laws, why should I bother with public transit?" Unfortunately, the argument is not entirely baseless; while PT is cheaper than owning a car, using PT while you leave your car at home is a terrible deal (thanks, mandatory car insurance!), even if your mileage is amazing. /Unhijack thread
solbergb 08-23-07, 05:50 PM	If someone wants to be a jerk, they can ruin it by walking the mod - but I've never done that, and I've never known anyone to do it. I've seen it. It can happen. It's a lot less likely when they have to play close to the APL. (they can still be a jerk, but the impact of them being a jerk has a lot less leverage)
solbergb 08-23-07, 05:52 PM	There is one thing about the USA that I notice seems difficult for a lot of non-US folks to really comprehend, unless they've actually been here and seen it. Just how damn big the country is. We have one state that you can literally drive for 800 miles and still be in the same state. I had a visitor from Australia who thinks our states are rather puny actually. Where she's from you pretty much have to get on an airplane for a couple hours to go to a convention. Ie, the distance from the Bay Area to Seattle, or Miami to New York.
solbergb 08-23-07, 05:57 PM	Right you are, KarmaInferno. I do know that statistically USA and Europe are almost the same size. Now, when I think that you do use car to go around ... Depends how you measure it. An awful lot of Europe could fit inside Texas or California. If you count Russia, Mediteranean, North Africa, Turkey....well it gets a bit bigger. Europe also just has fantastic public transportation compared to US. Getting on a train to go from, say, Milan to Copenhagen is something you can just decide to do and you'll spend about as much time as I spend driving down to the closest population center in Nyrond that plays LG, with a lot less strain than actually driving. In Europe I'd expect the larger barrier might be language/culture. When I played in Canada, I was able to cope at the mostly-french tables and they coped at the mostly-english tables, but it made things harder. Granted most non-americans are better at languages than me (my only other language is Russian, unused since the 80s).
Fsi-Dib 08-23-07, 06:21 PM	Well, this is going radically off-topic, but I doubt it matters all that much. Cultural and linguistical barriers in Europe indeed are a problem. I know from experince that once you go southern than UK/Denmark, the willingness and ability to speak English drops (I'm in the Nordic countries, and proud to say the amount of English-speaking people is astonishing). Surprisingly, in eastern Europe German works well as a common language. I blame dubbing. In Indo-European countries they dub all shows (even Stargate. And you don't want to know what Stargate sounds like in German. Egh.) while the nordic countries do not, with the exception of children's shows. I don't know if modules in Germany (I think the region was Ahlissa) have their own, original german copies.
_metz_ 08-23-07, 10:10 PM	I had a visitor from Australia who thinks our states are rather puny actually. Where she's from you pretty much have to get on an airplane for a couple hours to go to a convention. Ie, the distance from the Bay Area to Seattle, or Miami to New York. Pretty sure the closest con to where we were from in Armidale entailed a 7 hour car trip. Australia is VERY big. I am in Sydney, and Gencon next year is at least over a 1,000km away. And that is TOTALLY normal. The major Australian Con is way farther than that this year as well. In the US its easy to drive to another state, back when we only had one region, it was a little harder for Aussies to get more games in ;) Hence if Australia only has one region, it won't go down well. We have a really big player support base here, and about 30% are feeling a bit shafted just because of the recent region CHANGES back and forth, and the drama this has caused. So getting rid of tehm altogether will be a bit frustrating, and quite possibly turn many otherwise eager players off LFR.
Potato Weasel 08-24-07, 04:09 AM	So why is relaxing regional rules or opening access completely off the board? At least open up all the nonc prestige classes that have been given access to? And really, TU's need to be done away with, now. Not next year when it wont matter anyhow. It's the difference between getting a character up 2 levels, and getting a character up 5.
Madfox11 08-24-07, 04:46 AM	Well, this is going radically off-topic, but I doubt it matters all that much. Cultural and linguistical barriers in Europe indeed are a problem. I know from experince that once you go southern than UK/Denmark, the willingness and ability to speak English drops (I'm in the Nordic countries, and proud to say the amount of English-speaking people is astonishing). Surprisingly, in eastern Europe German works well as a common language. The Netherlands is not a Nordic country and I can guarantee you 100% certainty an English speaking table if you visit a convention/gameday and even with homegames chances are 95% the game can be run in English without a hitch. So you might want to draw the line a little bit more to the south than Denmark :P Mind you, I know enough German, French and Swiss players that are fluent enough in Enligsh to run and play games in that language. With a bit of work you can get a game in English, and I have been to LG conventions in France and German were the organizers helped getting tables run in English. The real problem is actually a different attitude towards travel than the Americans and a lack of convention culture.
MadVlad 08-24-07, 01:07 PM	So why is relaxing regional rules or opening access completely off the board? At least open up all the nonc prestige classes that have been given access to? And really, TU's need to be done away with, now. Not next year when it wont matter anyhow. It's the difference between getting a character up 2 levels, and getting a character up 5. Because then you'd be tempted to play those past 2008, significantly cutting into their precious LF campaign....
copper_wyrmling 08-24-07, 03:54 PM	I had a visitor from Australia who thinks our states are rather puny actually. Where she's from you pretty much have to get on an airplane for a couple hours to go to a convention. Ie, the distance from the Bay Area to Seattle, or Miami to New York. Assuming I'm the Australian visitor Brad is talking about, I do not think California is puny, I've driven across one corner of it and I'm well aware of how long it takes :P Australia is big as well, that's all ;)
solbergb 08-24-07, 05:38 PM	Well, I just shut up about how far it was to drive to Nyrond and Duchy when I heard about your convention visits :) Such things are all relative.
kjenks 08-24-07, 10:45 PM	I've been a level 11 at APL 6 who the DM made run from the fight, literally. The rest of the characters finished the mod while I and my 2 remaining points of Wisdom recuperated. I was the DM for that one. I ran the monsters the way I remembered them -- unfortunately, I remembered them from 2e, where their wisdom-damaging power did not have a line of effect requirement. In 3.5e, they should have been much less powerful.
dkay807 08-25-07, 12:37 PM	Give us 15th level PCs one more level to play with! It won't change a whole lot, and APL 16 is still the max! That's all I ask.
RanielK 08-25-07, 10:33 PM	Yeah, it was harder at GenCon - I was judging a slot right after the RPGA meeting...fortunately, I loved the mod(Heart's Desire) and had a good table, so I made sure not to spoil it for them. Yeah, Heart's Desire was an awesome mod. Though Erik Menge has a twisted sense of humor. He seriously broke one of the players at the slot 0 I attended.
Wraith235 08-25-07, 11:23 PM	So why is relaxing regional rules or opening access completely off the board? At least open up all the nonc prestige classes that have been given access to? And really, TU's need to be done away with, now. Not next year when it wont matter anyhow. It's the difference between getting a character up 2 levels, and getting a character up 5. honestly I agree with everything that you said .... but 1 difference there are some people who were started middle of this year ... and are planning on a region change in order to qualify for PrC's (I know I cant be the only one) I honestly think that either A) TU's need to go away after the 1st of the year B) TU's and PrC Access need to go out the window at the exact Same moment or C) TU's go out the window and give all PC's the option of an immediate Region change the most advantagious would be B but I think any of them would work
copper_wyrmling 08-26-07, 08:59 AM	Give us 15th level PCs one more level to play with! It won't change a whole lot, and APL 16 is still the max! That's all I ask. Oh yes, please! From the perspective of someone who plays a high-level sorcerer, 16 would be a much nicer final level than 15 ;)
Halworth 08-26-07, 11:25 AM	Oh yes, please! From the perspective of someone who plays a high-level sorcerer, 16 would be a much nicer final level than 15 ;) I'll jump on this band wagon! Go till 16th! My monk will hit a nice Milestone at 16th.
dkay807 08-27-07, 10:37 PM	I'll jump on this band wagon! Go till 16th! My monk will hit a nice Milestone at 16th. I actually made that comment without any supporting argument and now that a few have thrown in their support I'd like to suggest why allowing PCs to go up to 16th seems reasonable: Many of us raised our main PCs to 15th level and began new PCs with the expectation that we could slowly phase out our main PCs in regional interactives and whatnot. Our hopes were that these new PCs would also be able to climb the slow experience ladder to someday become our new main PCs. Suddenly, the end is very near, play opportunities are dying down, and we won't have the chance to develop the same "relationship" with many of our new PCs. Suddenly, many of us feel the need to pull out that 15th level PC and go through that new core plot arc for that one final hurrah! However, most of us will retire before having the chance to finish the arc, seeing as to how we didn't know about it before getting to 15th! Let us continue playing the PCs we love the most in their twilight days that will carry them through to their final battle. PCs that are already 16th level and retired can remain retired - there's no need to bring them back. But please, let our favorite PCs finish the campaign in one last blaze of glory (some of us have been "prepared for glory" since year one)! ~Dave tpb Lord Captain Brondor Stormhammer, Leader of the Sons of Thunder
clannagh 08-27-07, 10:42 PM	my vote is ... - open up level 16 before retirement - no TU starting immediately - allow Fiesta slots at more major events