Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Swiftbrook 10-02-06, 06:40 PM	OK, I'm looking for the best animal companion build from your experience. Background: My purpose is to compare a Ranger 8 w/Natural bond build vs. a Ranger 6/Beastmaster 1 build but I want to open it up to see all good Animal Companion builds. Parameters: Efective Druid Level is 7 Animal: Any legal Living Greyhawk animal, even if documentation is needed if you have seen the necessary documentation. Option A: 7th level Druid or 6th level Ranger/1st Level Beastmaster (EDL = 7) Option B: 8th level Ranger with Natural Bond (EDL = 7) Natural Bond increases your efective Druid level by 3 but does not allow larger animals, it just makes the smaller one better. Include which option you are using, the animal you chose, how you would advance the animal (HD and feats, and also skills if you want) if you can advance it, how you would equip it and how you would use the animal (combat tactics, tracking, scout, etc.). This is a tall order, but I think I could give some cool insite to Animal Companion design. -Swiftbrook
RedKnightofKet 10-02-06, 07:06 PM	I have optimized my character with Option C, with you don't have listed: Druid 6/Beastmaster 1 - effective Druid level for animal companion is 10. That alone makes you a menace. And I find that Tiger is one of the best options - pounce is a wonderful thing... Keep an eye on which animals get boosted to an even STR/DEX with the level bumps - the only real benefit from the odd numbers is in case of ability damage. I play a halfling who rides the tiger - doing spell bumps, etc. I am also going into Halfling Outrider - the animal companion still stacks, and you get some nice defensive bonuses in the PrC. You can get armor for him, but I have him wearing an Amulet of Health, Cloak of Resistance (until I can afford the Displacement), and the exotic saddle. Mounted Combat has also been a useful feat - when my ride check is d20+19, there's a good chance of negating that first hit. OK, I'm looking for the best animal companion build from your experience. Background: My purpose is to compare a Ranger 8 w/Natural bond build vs. a Ranger 6/Beastmaster 1 build but I want to open it up to see all good Animal Companion builds. Parameters: Efective Druid Level is 7 Animal: Any legal Living Greyhawk animal, even if documentation is needed if you have seen the necessary documentation. Option A: 7th level Druid or 6th level Ranger/1st Level Beastmaster (EDL = 7) Option B: 8th level Ranger with Natural Bond (EDL = 7) Natural Bond increases your efective Druid level by 3 but does not allow larger animals, it just makes the smaller one better. Include which option you are using, the animal you chose, how you would advance the animal (HD and feats, and also skills if you want) if you can advance it, how you would equip it and how you would use the animal (combat tactics, tracking, scout, etc.). This is a tall order, but I think I could give some cool insite to Animal Companion design. -Swiftbrook
Lomiat 10-02-06, 08:02 PM	There's also the Arcane Heirophant. Given that the class allows you two different spell selections to use to bolster your familiar companion, it's meant to be right up there with the best possible combinations for animal goodness. However, it delays your access to such things as Animal Growth. You can, though, toss a level of Beastmaster into the pre-AH levels.
Mommy was an Orc 10-02-06, 10:25 PM	There's also the Arcane Heirophant. Given that the class allows you two different spell selections to use to bolster your familiar companion, it's meant to be right up there with the best possible combinations for animal goodness. However, it delays your access to such things as Animal Growth. You can, though, toss a level of Beastmaster into the pre-AH levels. Arcane Hierophant isn't that great. A lot of people skip past the rules text which defines the thing as a boosted animal companion which isn't actually a familiar, just something that has a lot of the abilities of one.
DuctShuiTengu 10-02-06, 11:16 PM	Depends on what you want to do besides have a cool animal. For someone that's mostly a spellcaster, the Druid X/Beast Master 1 option is good. If you want a more martial build, try Ranger 6/Beast Master 1/Animal Lord X. Grab Natural Bond if you can get access (per the rules, it would be applied before the boost from Beast Master (when it's most beneficial), making up the 3 levels of animal companion-boosts that you aren't getting from Ranger, with Beast Master resulting in you having an Animal Companion that's equivalent of that of a Druid 3 levels higher than your actual level.)
kjenks 10-03-06, 06:51 AM	An advanced dire bat makes a dandy mobile archery platform.
Lomiat 10-03-06, 12:45 PM	Arcane Hierophant isn't that great. A lot of people skip past the rules text which defines the thing as a boosted animal companion which isn't actually a familiar, just something that has a lot of the abilities of one. I don't see what you meant, here, to distinguish what makes a familiar companion in any way less effective than a familiar. It's true that it gets its HP and Nat Armor adjustment from animal companion advancement, rather than familiar adjustment, but that's actually good. It gets familiar intelligence and familiar special abilities (improved evasion, speak with master, speak with animals of its kind, deliver touch spells, alertness, etc). Are you refering simply to the fact that it doesn't get its master's skill ranks? While it's true that delaying the level at which a character gains Animal Growth as a spell significantly detracts from an animal companion's power, the ability to give it Shield, Haste, Invisibility/Greater Invisibility and let it deliver Vampiric Touch, etc. makes Arcane Heirophant a tempting class. I think the higher-level Arcane Heirophant's hasted, animal growthed kitty with Improved Invis and Nightstalker's Transformation could be pretty scary.
Mommy was an Orc 10-03-06, 03:28 PM	I don't see what you meant, here, to distinguish what makes a familiar companion in any way less effective than a familiar. It's true that it gets its HP and Nat Armor adjustment from animal companion advancement, rather than familiar adjustment, but that's actually good. It gets familiar intelligence and familiar special abilities (improved evasion, speak with master, speak with animals of its kind, deliver touch spells, alertness, etc). Are you refering simply to the fact that it doesn't get its master's skill ranks? No, that it isn't actually a familiar. Meaning certain spells which work only on familiars don't work on them.
Swiftbrook 10-03-06, 04:26 PM	Focus Now :) The thread topic is Animal Companion Builds Yes character development/builds/role-playing are all important. I'm trying to compare all possible EDL 7 Animal Companions. Then I'll be better able to dertiermine if it's better to go Natural Bond or take a level dip in Beastmaster. I really don't want to take the dip (not getting into that in this thread, basically, it pushes back many other things that I want) but I will if it's the best option. ======================================== ================= Riding Dog HD: 6 HP: 39 AC: 24 (Natural +8, Dex +3, Masterwork Studded Leather +3) BAB: +4 Bonus Tricks: 3 3rd Level Feat: Improved Natural Weapon (to 1d8 damage) 6th Level Feat: Weapon Focus (bite) Attack (bite): +8 (BAB +4, +1 WpnFoc, +3 Str) Trip Attack: +3 Tricks: Attack, Attack, Trip, Trip, Track, Heal, Come, Defend and Seek Role: Guard, Opponent Distractor, Assist with Tracking Notes: I haven't seen access to the advanced tricks like Assist Track, so I haven't included them. ======================================== ==================== That's what I'm looking for. -Swiftbrook
Snappa 10-03-06, 07:08 PM	While not the greatest utility companion, a 7th level dire boar can turn into a monster at level 9, when it gets its first HD bump. A druid 5/beastmaster 1 is an EDL of 9 and can take the following: Dire Boar HD: 9d8+27 HP: 67 (effectively 77 from Ferocity) AC: 21 (Natural +8, Dex +0, Size -1 Masterwork Chain Shirt +4) BAB: +6 Bonus Tricks: 2 9th Level Feat: Improved Natural Attack (gore) Attack (gore): +13 (BAB +6, +9 Str, -1 Size, -1 non-proficient armor) Damage: 2d6+13 Tricks: Attack, Attack, Down, Heel, Come, Defend, Guard, Seek Role: Tank, Charger I noticed that the gore attack deals 1 1/2 times strength. If this is treated like a 2h weapon for Power Attack damage, it might be worth swapping Improved Natural Attack for Power Attack. With some offensive buffs, like Bull's Strength and Greater Magic Fang, it could do some very nice damage. However, I can't find anything that says explicitly you can do this. The downside to this beast is that it's a one-trick pony...er piggy. Gore deals piercing damage, which means a lot of DR vs. bony or zombified undead. It doesn't have the utility of a riding dog, but is large enough to be ridden by a medium character, though some DMs may disallow it if the animal isn't trained for combat riding (which isn't covered in the LGCS section on Animal Companions.
Namarus 10-03-06, 09:31 PM	Focus Now :) The thread topic is Animal Companion Builds Yes character development/builds/role-playing are all important. I'm trying to compare all possible EDL 7 Animal Companions. Then I'll be better able to dertiermine if it's better to go Natural Bond or take a level dip in Beastmaster. I really don't want to take the dip (not getting into that in this thread, basically, it pushes back many other things that I want) but I will if it's the best option. ======================================== ================= Riding Dog HD: 6 HP: 39 AC: 24 (Natural +8, Dex +3, Masterwork Studded Leather +3) BAB: +4 Bonus Tricks: 3 3rd Level Feat: Improved Natural Weapon (to 1d8 damage) 6th Level Feat: Weapon Focus (bite) Attack (bite): +8 (BAB +4, +1 WpnFoc, +3 Str) Trip Attack: +3 Tricks: Attack, Attack, Trip, Trip, Track, Heal, Come, Defend and Seek Role: Guard, Opponent Distractor, Assist with Tracking Notes: I haven't seen access to the advanced tricks like Assist Track, so I haven't included them. ======================================== ==================== That's what I'm looking for. -Swiftbrook Btw, this is entirely at the DM's discretion, but you can always push the animal to make it do those optional rules tricks. “Push” an Animal To push an animal means to get it to perform a task or trick that it doesn’t know but is physically capable of performing. This category also covers making an animal perform a forced march or forcing it to hustle for more than 1 hour between sleep cycles. If the animal is wounded or has taken any nonlethal damage or ability score damage, the DC increases by 2. If your check succeeds, the animal performs the task or trick on its next action.
Iswald 10-03-06, 11:23 PM	Background: My purpose is to compare a Ranger 8 w/Natural bond build vs. a Ranger 6/Beastmaster 1 build but I want to open it up to see all good Animal Companion builds. If you can get access to natural bond, why not take both natural bond and beastmaster with your ranger?
Nutation 10-04-06, 02:15 AM	I noticed that the gore attack deals 1 1/2 times strength. If this is treated like a 2h weapon for Power Attack damage, it might be worth swapping Improved Natural Attack for Power Attack. Natural weapons always get x1 Power Attack, even when it's the creature's only attack.
RedKnightofKet 10-04-06, 08:31 AM	I disagree. The LGCS (p. 40) says: "Special tricks (ones not listed in the PH) are only allowed by way of campaign or regional documentation." Therefore, you can't take them or push your animal to do them. They are not allowed without the access. Period. Btw, this is entirely at the DM's discretion, but you can always push the animal to make it do those optional rules tricks.
Iswald 10-04-06, 10:08 AM	You can't take the trick, but you can describe to the DM what you want the animal companion to do (which, purely by coincidence, matches the description of a trick from CV), and then push the animal to perform the desired action.
Swiftbrook 10-04-06, 11:30 AM	If you can get access to natural bond, why not take both natural bond and beastmaster with your ranger? Because, I want my ranger to do a good job at other this as well. What you are suggesting requires two precious feats. At this time, I don't want to go there. -Swiftbrook
Lomiat 10-04-06, 07:08 PM	It would help to know more about your character: level, abilities, race, feat selection, etc. One of our local players has an archer who rides his rhino animal companion, charges into melee and then shoots without provoking AoO's due to his levels of Order of the Bow Initiate. It's a pretty solid build and makes good use of the animal companion. The matter, as I see it, is becoming less about how to make the best animal companion and more about what animal companion might best suit your character, so the utility of this thread stalls until we know more about the character. For example, I think this last message was the first that identified the PC as an archer, and, therefore, the first to preclude much of the utility from an animal that can trip (dire wolf) and, for that matter, most animals that can grapple (brown bear) since, as an archer, you don't want your targets prone or in grapples. It seems, then, that you're probably looking for a mount or scout or secondary cork. And since we don't know if the PC is small or medium, we don't know if a particular animal is best at fulfilling multiple of those roles.
kjenks 10-05-06, 07:57 AM	When advancing an animal companion, I like to give them unusual skills. My druid's advanced dire bat has a cross-class rank in Tumble. With his high Dex, his single rank gives him enough of a bonus to make a DC 15 check to avoid an AoO more than half the time -- this is especially important with the Flyby Attack feat.
Swiftbrook 10-05-06, 06:13 PM	It would help to know more about your character Elven Ranger Archer Dex 18, Str 16, Wis 14, Con 10, Int 10, Cha 8 One of our local players has an archer who rides his rhino animal companion, charges into melee and then shoots without provoking AoO's due to his levels of Order of the Bow Initiate. I'm not looking at my animal companion as a mount, but I just haven't considered that. I'm also not looking at Order of the Bow. I think this last message was the first that identified the PC as an archer, and, therefore, the first to preclude much of the utility from an animal that can trip (dire wolf) and, for that matter, most animals that can grapple (brown bear) since, as an archer, you don't want your targets prone or in grapples. I've always had a Riding Dog or Wolf with the trip ability. While travelling, he's always at my side, a spacer between me and an ambush. My animal is NOT cannon fodder or a "meat shield". It may sound that way, but it'sn not true. My animal companion has had better AC than me for a while. Typically, in combat, I send it in to attack and trip one of the important bad guys and keep him down. I don't care if I can't shoot the bad guy, I let our front line take care of them. I take out others with my bow. It seems, then, that you're probably looking for a mount or scout or secondary cork. I haven't really used my animal as a scout, but I should consider that. Like I said, he's not a meat shield, I don't send him into traps. I opened this tread to look at all Druid Level 7 animal companions. I didn't want to limit it to my character concept. By not limiting it by concept, I open the door for ideas and concepts I have not considered. The Dire Bat mount is a prime example. That's a cool concept. It doesn't fit my character, but it might fit someone elses. My Character: Combat: Archer Non-combat: Ranger (woodsman, lookout, guide) Traits: Always seems to have a dog/wolf or two around. Backup: healer, light infantry (getting harder to do these as I advance levels) Hope this spurs more Animal Companion ideas. -Swiftbrook
Iswald 10-05-06, 11:16 PM	I haven't really used my animal as a scout, but I should consider that. Like I said, he's not a meat shield, I don't send him into traps. This could be kind of tough unless you have speak with animals prepared or a special companion that can talk.
zigspatty 10-06-06, 08:41 PM	Unless your ranger has ranks in beastmaster, natural bond or some way to boost his companion's hardiness, his companion is a pretty fragile combatant. Used as a mount with combat riding, they can be hardier than a warhorse and fare pretty well. As a scout, you do better to look at a hawk or owl with the trick "Seek" because of their excellent spotting skills. You still have the problem that they're only animal intelligence, though a speak with animals will usually allow you to get your point across. Coupled with a Chain of Eyes, they can be outstanding scouts. Patty
Tahldrehlian 10-13-06, 12:23 AM	While it's true that delaying the level at which a character gains Animal Growth as a spell significantly detracts from an animal companion's power, .. Not to derail it again... but who needs Animal Growth when you can cast enlarge person on yourself and have it work on your animal companion?
Arvagor 10-13-06, 01:00 AM	.. Not to derail it again... but who needs Animal Growth when you can cast enlarge person on yourself and have it work on your animal companion?Probably because enlarge person is not a ranger spell (nor druid)...
Lupo 10-13-06, 08:30 AM	.. Not to derail it again... but who needs Animal Growth when you can cast enlarge person on yourself and have it work on your animal companion? "animal growth" does give far more than "enlarge person". and one can cast it on multiple targets, as all the nice dire wolves or felines one has just summoned in addition to ones own animal companion. ciao martin m.
Tahldrehlian 10-13-06, 09:06 AM	Probably because enlarge person is not a ranger spell (nor druid)... I was referring to the Arcane Hierophant build... sorry.
Lomiat 10-16-06, 06:57 PM	I was referring to the Arcane Hierophant build... sorry. From the Player's Handbook: Enlarge Person "Target: One humanoid creature" Unless your familiar companion is a humanoid creature, it remains an invalid target for Enlarge Person.
Cynric 10-16-06, 09:32 PM	I agree with that, but from memeory the druid side bar in the class description indicates you can cast it on yourself and share with your companion.
jstorrie 10-16-06, 10:12 PM	A Paladin 5 / Beastmaster 1 with Devoted Tracker can also have a pretty impressive mount running around, either a heavy warhorse for a medium PC going into Cavalier or a riding dog for a halfling going into Supermount.
The_Ditto 10-17-06, 09:40 AM	I opened this tread to look at all Druid Level 7 animal companions. Ok .. Animal Companions for EDL = 7: Best AC: Dire Bat (-3) -> HD: 6 (45 hp), AC: 23 Best HP: Elasmosaurus (-6) -> HD: 10 (105 hp), AC: 15 (Water based - but has land movement) Alternate: Rhinoceros (-6) -> HD: 8 (76 hp), AC: 17 Other notables for combat: Dmg output: Tiger(-6): Imp. Grab + Pounce + rake: 2x d8+6 plus 2d6+3 plus d8+3 (rake) Rhinoceros (-6): Powerful charge: 4d6+24 (kinda 1-trick pony, though) Giant Crocodile (-6): 1 big bite + grappler + amphibious Dire Wolverine (-6): 2x d6+6 + d8+3 + rage ... Dire Wolverine and Tiger are very close ... Tiger has better HP, Wolverine has better AC .. Wolverine becomes better when it rages .. but dmg is still pretty close ... The lower level ones are only worth considering if you are NOT looking at damage output or general combat capability. Even with the HD boost, their damage doesn't increase, and hence cannot compete with those I listed above. So, if it's damage and/or combat ability, you'll want to consider the Tiger, Rhinoceros, Giant Crocodile or Dire Wolverine ... those are (IMHO) the 4 better melee-junkies available at EDL = 7. If you are looking at staying power or other abilities, than you have many more options with the lower level critters: Snakes always give you abilities other critters don't ... the constrictor (-3) has a reasonable grapple .. however, the Brown Beat (-6) might be better for grappling straight up ... Large Shark (-3) if you're aquatic is a bit more manageable size-wise than the Elasmosaurus (-6) ... the latter is much better in every other way, however ... Dire Weasels (-3) are just evil .. CON drain? oh yeah, sign me up ... they are a bit fragile, however, so you'd have to work extra hard to protect them ... (I'm thinking of my next character going Druid 5 / BeastMaster 10 with Natural Bond and picking up 4 Dire Weasels ... then when I can, get Awaken and Leadership and get a 5th ... with Barbarian levels!!! :D My pack of rapid dire Weasels ... hehe ... ) Dire Bat (-3) is handy, blindsense and flight ... plus not a shabby bite ... Dire Badgers (-3) are just fun ... heh .. rage again ... but not quite as tough as the wolverines ... Riding Dogs (0) are good all round, but you'll probably find the Heavy War Horse (0) is a bit better HP/AC-wise only ... (ie survivability) HP: 39 vs 45 AC: 21 vs 19 ... pretty close ... the Riding dog might have an edge with the higher AC (Effectively 10% less dmg incoming ... but the horse does have a few extra hp to compensate) ... The dog might have an edge with it's scent, but the horse has 3 attacks instead of the one, and more damage ... My personal opionion: Take the Rhinoceros ... :dancin: (Assuming, of course, the DM won't let you take the Elasmosaurus!!! :hides: )
SirApropos 10-17-06, 12:03 PM	My Halfling Druid just got access to the Brixashulty from the Race of the Wild book (pg 187) and it looks pretty good. Similar to the Riding Dog as far as Speed and AC but better HP. The Knockback ability looks good too since it's a free Bull Rush each time it hits with it's gore attack. And at +7 to it's Bull Rush vs +1 to Trip with the Riding Dog it has some takedown power.
Swiftbrook 10-17-06, 03:50 PM	I'm thinking of my next character going Druid 5 / BeastMaster 10 with Natural Bond and picking up 4 Dire Weasels ... then when I can, get Awaken and Leadership and get a 5th ... with Barbarian levels!!! :D My pack of rapid dire Weasels ... hehe ... Only problem here is that "Natural Bond" only works on one of your animal companions. Not all four. Like your breakdown of ideas. Thanks. -Swiftbrook
Iswald 10-17-06, 11:18 PM	Dire Weasels (-3) are just evil .. CON drain? oh yeah, sign me up ... they are a bit fragile, however, so you'd have to work extra hard to protect them ... (I'm thinking of my next character going Druid 5 / BeastMaster 10 with Natural Bond and picking up 4 Dire Weasels ... then when I can, get Awaken and Leadership and get a 5th ... with Barbarian levels!!! :D My pack of rapid dire Weasels ... hehe ... ) Awaken is restricted. Your additional companions from beastmaster will be extremely feeble.