Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TWG_Prometheus 09-20-06, 03:29 PM	I'm relatively new to Living Greyhawk, but I've got around six months of play and almost 20 modules under my belt now, which is enough to tell me that I don't know what high-level play will look like. One of the biggest factors in APL 2-6 play as far as my experience has gone in survivability is Armor Class. Hit points not so much, (meaning if your AC is low but HP high, you're still going to get rolled over) but it helps a ton. I'm sure Hit Points gain in relevance later on, due to the nastier damage spells. As far as my play has gone, however, those with high Armor Class tend to be a big help to the party, because they soak up a lot of pain without actually feeling it, provided they are of use offensively as well. One thing I've been debating while designing my characters is how much AC to shoot for. There was a recent Armor Class thread similar in nature, but it got extended and was intended for archer characters, anyway. For more general use, if you want to be up on the frontlines at APL 12 and above, what kind of benchmarks for Armor Class and Hit Points should one shoot for? This is purely to be able to survive for a round or two without getting totally mauled, not to be the ubertank. The supertanks are pretty easy to figure out.
UMiskatonic 09-20-06, 05:57 PM	Um, get as much as you can? It's hard to be helpful and stay general at the same time. At APL 12, I want my characters to have 100 hps or more, and an AC of 25 or better. You can trade those back and forth, a barbarian with 200 hps can afford a charging, raging AC of 17. At higher levels, everyone's main attack will usually hit. AC isn't about stopping that. It's about stopping the secondary bite/gore/tail lash/poke in the eye, and it's about stopping people from power attacking for 20 and killing you dead with one hit. All the same, hit points decrease in a slow and predictible way. I feel that the high level game is much more about saving throws. One level of monk is worth it, a lot of the time, to add +2 to all of your saves. Choose PrC's with this in mind. Buy the vest of resistance +3 before you upgrade to better magical armor. Also, at APL 12, you need a wide variety of defenses. If you can't get out of a grapple, it doesn't matter how many hit points you have. Eventually, it will crush you to death. LIkewise for energy damage, poison clouds, level drain, etc. If you have a will save of +2, your hit points and AC don't matter. I suggest that all characters should have +1 armor by 5th level, unless they don't wear armor. Likewise, a ring of protection by 6th level is good to have as well. You should have at least a 14 Con, and I have not seen a necklace yet that beats the utility of an amulet of health. Unless you're a cleric/druid. Temp. Hp's are important. False Life is great, so is mass aid (limited), heroes' feast, and stalwart pact.
Lomiat 09-20-06, 06:50 PM	One decent (though not infallible) way to determine what is a "good" AC is to skim through the Monster's Manual and peruse the attack bonuses of the melee monsters at the various CRs. A good AC, I would say, would be roughly 15 + the monster's attack bonus. This means it misses most of the time. A decent AC would be 10 + attack bonus, meaning it has to think twice before power attacking. Dire animals and giants, particularly, set good benchmarks. While it's true that a lot of LG authors will min-max NPCs and template monsters to hit harder than dire animals and giants, they're good representations of the average melee combatant. Using this as a guide, the CR 5 Dire Lion attacks with a +13, and a good AC would be around 28 for an 8th level character. This can be easily done with full plate, shield, and Combat Expertise. A CR 9 Frost Giant attacks with a +18, so a good AC should hit 33 by 9th level. And, again, a Storm Giant (CR 13), attacks with a +26, so a high AC character ought to be able to pump his/her AC to 41 or better by 13th level. Once more, this is easily done with items and feats available to a 13th-level character.
TWG_Prometheus 09-20-06, 07:40 PM	Thanks for the replies so far. I knew that I wouldn't only need HP and Armor Class to get by at the high levels, but I do have plans already for my main character to get good saves. Reflex will be a little laggish, but still pretty solid. Part of the reason I didn't talk about saves and grapples and such is either: #1 They are easy to calculate at any given level. (Save DCs don't range all THAT much) #2 The threats can vary so wildly that specific preparations are almost useless. (Grapple modifiers. Find another way out.) Armor Class, +attack bonuses, and HP needs vary so wildly at all levels, however, that I was trying to get a good rough guess of what is going on with the more common combatants. We all know that the tweaked out bad guys stink. Just have to handle that.
UMiskatonic 09-21-06, 09:57 AM	I think most of my characters fit into Lomiat's 'average AC' category, and I've done just fine. It helps me to think of it as a race. Can you hit their AC enough to cause them to run out of HP before they return the favor? My 10th level paladin has an AC of 22 when charging, which is frequent. I find that triple lance damage gets me through the fight. I'm not as good on foot, and I fight differently as a result.
amnuxoll 09-21-06, 02:21 PM	My hp/ac rules of thumb are: Armor Class ----------- If AC <= 10 + APL - arcane caster, bard, or archer. If AC = 11-15 + APL - second line melee/support PC (e.g., rogue, healer). A full attack puts you out of the fight. If AC = 16-20 + APL - melee guy If AC is more than 20 + APL - cork Hit Points ---------- Divide your total hit points by the APL you're playing. If your result is: less than 5 = you're in trouble. Even wizards should not be this low. 5-6 = back of they party (arcane caster, bard, archer). You have enough to take one big hit or spell and live but you'll have to retreat. Critical hits can kill you. 6-7 = second line melee/support PC (rogue, healer). You can afford to be near the baddie as long as someone else is there to take more hits than you. 7-8 = you can be in melee but you won't last long without a good AC 8-9 = you're in good shape for melee 9+ = meat shield Like any rule of thumb, these aren't perfect but they're a good start.
Reylance 09-22-06, 01:44 PM	I found an AC in the low 30's was suitable in the APL 12 range. A party I played with frequently had three PCs who could get in that range (spellsword with spells and combat expertise, wildrunner/champion of Corellon, dragon disciple) and protect the others (archer, spiked chain fighter, wizard) without AC. The group was successful enough that we got away with going without a real cleric.
solbergb 09-22-06, 03:29 PM	The AC/HP you need to do round after round of straight up combat at APL12+ is a lot higher than the AC/HP you need to survive full attack, and that's a lot highter than the AC/HP you need to survive a single strong swat. The former category fits "heavy infantry" The second "light infantry" The third "back rankers" Things like how potent your reach attack and your ranged weapon attacks are can modify this too, as can feat trees like spring attack, rideby attack and dervish dance that let you get out of range of full attack after inflicting damage. Some light infantry can get away with VERY low AC, but they'll still want enough hp to survive a full attack or several single "swats".
Jay_Ibero_911 09-24-06, 02:47 AM	I've got a 9th level gnome druid with very good HP and AC from what I've seen. Here's teh breakdown: AC=10 +1(dex) +1(size) +9(+1 dragonhide full plate) +2(+1 darkwood buckler) +1(ring of protection) +4(Stone Form wild feat) +4(riding for cover) +4(barkskin)=36 Yes he has Heavy Armor proficiency. And the ranks in ride to auto-make the check to ride for cover, and he's almost always on his riding dog, which has almost the same AC. He also has 84 hp (16 base con +2 from a belt of endurance). It's especially fun when non-grappling giants are involved, cause then I get another +4 AC and laugh at them.
Evanta 09-24-06, 10:30 AM	My cleric has AC 20 from level 2 onwards, I'll likely need +1 AC / level, to stay relevant. Even then, at high levels the 1st attack WILL hit, AC is relevant more for the 2nd and 3rd attacks. Also, figure in stuff like displacement cloaks and the like at high levels, AC is good but not the only way of avoiding hits.
ezreal2001 09-24-06, 08:37 PM	My hp/ac rules of thumb are: Armor Class ----------- If AC <= 10 + APL - arcane caster, bard, or archer. If AC = 11-15 + APL - second line melee/support PC (e.g., rogue, healer). A full attack puts you out of the fight. If AC = 16-20 + APL - melee guy If AC is more than 20 + APL - cork Hit Points ---------- Divide your total hit points by the APL you're playing. If your result is: less than 5 = you're in trouble. Even wizards should not be this low. 5-6 = back of they party (arcane caster, bard, archer). You have enough to take one big hit or spell and live but you'll have to retreat. Critical hits can kill you. 6-7 = second line melee/support PC (rogue, healer). You can afford to be near the baddie as long as someone else is there to take more hits than you. 7-8 = you can be in melee but you won't last long without a good AC 8-9 = you're in good shape for melee 9+ = meat shield Like any rule of thumb, these aren't perfect but they're a good start. Of course, when you're not a frontliner you can just go for weirdness. My RSoP has Con 10 for 32 hp and AC 20, but stays alive by staying out of combat at all costs, uses Potions of Invisibilty with gay abandon, and uses Delay Death as a standard personal buff (the other players are warned at the start of the session).
Morgen 10-07-06, 12:54 AM	Ahhhh, you guys are wat to worried about all of this stuff, seriously. I wonder around with an AC of 12 all the time in LG at APL 14 and it's not so terrible. Of course, I'm a sorcerer so I don't have many hitpoints either. Suppose I could look at taking like Draconic Skin or something as a spell. I haven't really seen a major reason to get my AC up at all, things are always going to hit me. I watch you guys with AC 36 being kicked around and decide to spend my money on other more unusual things like a Belt of Dwarvenkind or a Broom of Flying. No mage armor or false life or any of that silly stuff for me! ;3 Seriously though, how the heck am I supposed to have an armor class and still be a sorcerer? I've pretty much just be blasting and avoiding most damage and seeming bizzarely unkillable.
Japangirl 10-07-06, 03:42 AM	If you have decent HP, your AC doesn't have to be all that great as a sorceror. No one expects it to be good, after all. But if you have less than a 14 Con (or 12 as an elf maybe), you live life in LG very very dangerously indeed.
Prochytes 10-07-06, 06:54 AM	If you have decent HP, your AC doesn't have to be all that great as a sorceror. No one expects it to be good, after all. But if you have less than a 14 Con (or 12 as an elf maybe), you live life in LG very very dangerously indeed. My sorcerer (now 15th level), has never had an AC better than 16. Her natural Con is 10 (she was my first LG PC, and I had not then recognized the importance of hps), so there were indeed some very close calls in her earlier career. These days she usually has triple digit hps, but that mostly comes from magic.
paigeoliver 10-08-06, 07:00 AM	I have seen some people simply dump DEX altogether with their casters, figuring an AC 13 isn't really all that better than a 9.
Arinaad 10-08-06, 08:44 AM	Currently at APL 10, my Wiz/cle/Mystic Theurge commonly has a 31 AC and 90 HP. This serves me well, especially when I have to go into Tank Mode. I have recently run out of ways of boosting my AC though. AC=10+4 (shield)+6 (Greater Mage Armor) +3 (Shield of Faith)+6 (Alter self, Troglodite)+ 2 (Dex with Cat's grace)=31. Any Suggestions would help. However, my 12th level character has survived so far (with exception of the time the GM had it out for me and ambushed ME not the party) with a 22 AC and just over 80 HP. She is a tumble monkey and I ensure that if it can be grappled, I can grapple it, as well as having Evasion and Mettle makes things a lot easier at high APL (Except it generally angers authors who are running games for you and you inadvertantly giggle at his maximized, empowered, heightened, horrid wilting from a specialist with spell penetration & greater spell penetration). Arinaad
clik_ml 10-08-06, 09:33 AM	AC=10+4 (shield)+6 (Greater Mage Armor) +3 (Shield of Faith)+6 (Alter self, Troglodite)+ 2 (Dex with Cat's grace)=31. Any Suggestions would help. That's 3-4 rounds of defensive self-buffing in a combat (shield, shield of faith, cat's grace and possibly alter self)... are there really any parties that forgive you for doing something like that or is there just divine quicken at work there? So my suggestion would be: stop doing that! :-) A defending weapon, +5 mithral buckler along with +5 armor that doesn't have arcane spell failure (there's a few out there) would bump up that AC some. Polymorph will also give access to forms with a higher AC bump than alter self.
Prochytes 10-08-06, 10:59 AM	having Evasion and Mettle makes things a lot easier at high APL (Except it generally angers authors who are running games for you and you inadvertantly giggle at his maximized, empowered, heightened, horrid wilting from a specialist with spell penetration & greater spell penetration). Arinaad Evasion and Mettle or not, most of my characters would head for the hills if someone started casting 14th level spells at them...:)
Calinon 10-09-06, 11:21 AM	While there are definitely monsters and NPC's that melee, most people are going to get hit once out of 3+ attacks they have. I focussed on AC, and with full plate + tower shield + natural armor + ring of protection/shield of faith, I usually hit 37 on the AC scale. As a cleric, one would think that's dang spiffy. My touch AC is 14 or 15 depending on buffs. And this is the AC that matters the vast majority of the time. Grapples, ranged touch and melee touch attacks truly are the bane of my existance. If you can afford it, I'd suggest bracers of armor for back-up AC versus touch attacks. Sure they won't stack with the full plate as the full plate is better, but I believe it will kick in its lessor protection when the full plate is useless. HP's are vital. Sudden maximize, or even preplanned maximize, are a fan favorite for damage spells among writers. Nothing is quite so demoralizing as seeing someone fail that DC 22+ reflex save and take 120+ points of damage. Oops, you're dead. Thanks for coming. Now that I've reached my level, I've found that the order of importance of things are saving throws, hit points, touch AC, melee AC. Though it is nice to laugh at the power attacking advanced, leveled, storm giant who needs 20's to hit you. At least until he hits you.
JamesMaissen 10-09-06, 02:43 PM	If you can afford it, I'd suggest bracers of armor for back-up AC versus touch attacks. Bracers of armor, like mage armor only work against incorporeal touches and not normal touch attacks (grapples, spells and the like). -James
WCrawford 10-09-06, 03:18 PM	I have a cleric 7/sacred excorcist 4 with an AC of 30 and hp of 80 before spells. I don't have a problem meleeing at APL 12 if needed. Breakdown: 10+2(Dex 16)+11(+3 Mithril Full Plate)+5(+3 Mithril Large Shield)+2(Ring of Damascus with LG alignment)=30 With this as a base its's not hard to boost it up to the high 30's or low 40's with spells or loaned equipment.
clik_ml 10-09-06, 04:07 PM	That's odd, your sacred exorcist should be getting a +3 dex with his mithral full plate, putting the total up to 31.
copper_wyrmling 10-09-06, 04:21 PM	I have a cleric 7/sacred excorcist 4 with an AC of 30 and hp of 80 before spells. I don't have a problem meleeing at APL 12 if needed. Breakdown: 10+2(Dex 16)+11(+3 Mithril Full Plate)+5(+3 Mithril Large Shield)+2(Ring of Damascus with LG alignment)=30 With this as a base its's not hard to boost it up to the high 30's or low 40's with spells or loaned equipment. With Dex 16 in mithral fullplate you should have +3 AC from Dex (for a total of 31), is that a typo? My L14 cleric's usual in-combat AC breaks down as: 10 + 3 Dex (Dex 16) + 11 armor (+3 mithral full plate) + 4 shield (+3 buckler) + 4 deflection (quickened Shield of Faith or precast extended Shield of Faith) + 1 dodge (Boots of Speed) +1 insight (dusty rose ioun stone) + 2 sacred (special item) = 36. She *loves* adventuring with druids or other nice people who can cast Barkskin when handed a L2 pearl ;) I've found that level of AC means that enemy monsters mostly miss, even at APL 12-14: I don't worry too much anymore about taking a full attack after moving in to hit the monster with a nasty touch-spell, heal / buff a PC, or set up for my own full attack next round. However, AC in the mid-high 20s does *not* seem to have the same protective effect at APL 14: it's quite possible to lose a couple of hundred hit points to an APL 14 monster's full attack if you have AC in the mid-20s and get unlucky. (I've seen this happen to a L15 tank fighter vs an angel of decay and a ~L12 barbarian vs a gargantuan advanced chimera: in both cases, the people with AC 35+ also took full attacks and emerged almost unscathed.) I haven't found touch AC to be that much of a problem, although you can see from the breakdown that she can have touch AC 21 after her first action, and a lot of enemy spellcasters have trouble hitting that, especially if she's in melee and / or has cover. Also, she usually has Energy Immunity (Fire) running, which stops the twinned sudden maximised scorching rays, and if it's a dungeon-crawl she may be prebuffed with Extended Freedom of Movement (lasts about four and a half hours at her level).
WCrawford 10-09-06, 05:50 PM	Yes, it was a typo, my Cleric has a 14 DEX. :)
wagnert 10-10-06, 12:22 PM	In my local LG group, our front lines were a couple of clerics with AC's in the mid 30's, with one character in the mid 40's. Almost everyone in our party has saves in the mid to upper teens.
Arinaad 10-10-06, 02:04 PM	Evasion and Mettle or not, most of my characters would head for the hills if someone started casting 14th level spells at them...:) It took rods, and being in a really really bad place. It was just cast at 9.
_m_ 10-19-06, 09:37 PM	on hp. not everyone is going to get up over the 100 hp mark by lvl 12. what about the low con diplomacy bard. things i think: HP is important in relation to your ac. Massive ac means you can probably get away with lower hp, and vice versa, though generally its both or neither. sorc with low hp and low armour, fighter with high both. though ac is easily achievable if you put some effort into it. i mean, ive got my ac up over 30 at lvl 9, and im a wizard. however, the last con i played, around 15 people died, and NONE of them died from static damage. with so much healing, special saves, rerolls and and delay death (love it) nobody ever seems to get killed by actual damage. everyone who kicked the bucket went down because of environmental mishaps (ever fallen into a volcano?), and most commonly, failed saves. this i would argue that saves are FAR more important than either hp or ac. a 400 hp fighter with 60 ac will still go down to a wail of the banshee if he fails his save. on the same note, will and fort are alot more important than reflex. if you fail reflex, odds are you will take straight damage: a fireball, lightning bolt etc. fail a fort save, you get dead. fail will... you also get dead. as for apl 12: id say u want low teens saves, hopefully around 100+ hp, and if you can manage, id like to have ac of around 40, or at least spell equivalents (flicker, blink, stoneskin, invis, that sort of thing)
Haro 10-20-06, 12:18 AM	on hp. not everyone is going to get up over the 100 hp mark by lvl 12. what about the low con diplomacy bard. My 13th level Swashbuckler mutt only has 97hp, but with AC 31 standing still (Dodge, Mobility, Combat Expertise, Elusive Target not factored) and he's never died. I even bait most DMs at the table to try to in a weak substitute for the Goad feat...(fits the character) however, the last con i played, around 15 people died, and NONE of them died from static damage. with so much healing, special saves, rerolls and and delay death (love it) nobody ever seems to get killed by actual damage. Aw c'mon, if it's SRDU we're talking about nearly all those 15 people died in the same place in the same mod to a trap with a password so easy, most of the high level PCs died because the PLAYER overthought the 'riddle'. That being said, I ran it 5 times and the worst I did was send two characters to another plane and turn two others to stone... This i would argue that saves are FAR more important than either hp or ac, a 400 hp fighter with 60 ac will still go down to a wail of the banshee if he fails his save. Yup, although Wail of the Banshee is a Fort save. Magic Jar or Imprisonment is another story! Joe
_m_ 10-20-06, 12:38 AM	That being said, I ran it 5 times and the worst I did was send two characters to another plane and turn two others to stone... Joe lol, i was IN that game, remember the little irish gold dragon? that was ME :D gogo gadget fort save :D
Sieylianna 10-22-06, 08:59 PM	We had a PC die this past weekend in a core module at APL 12. Everyone was shocked when we wandered within range of the raging hill giant barbarian for a full attack and told the judge that he was AC 9!!! If he'd said anything, we definitely could have provided Barkskin and Mage Armor for +8 to almost double his AC. It was the last foe standing in the final combat which took him out. And the giant was only power attacking for six instead of full. Ed
solbergb 10-23-06, 02:17 PM	See there is nothing wrong with AC9. And nothing wrong with "wander into range of raging hill giant barbarian". It's the putting the two things together without an extremely good reason that's a mistake. You need more hp and AC if you aren't careful with your character placement... He likely didn't ask for help because AC17 and AC9 are pretty much the same thing at APL12. My low AC monk usually makes sure the "real" tanks have the AC boosts before asking for anything. Only if it doesn't drain needed resources will he ask for more. Walking into range of a melee enemy like that though, without some kind of plan to neuter it's full attack was just asking to be squished.
clik_ml 10-23-06, 03:31 PM	Walking into range of a melee enemy like that though, without some kind of plan to neuter it's full attack was just asking to be squished. Heh, and it sounds like the mod was all but over anyway and it wasn't going to hurt the party. At high level, I have to wonder how often suicide by giant occurs, simply to keep from retirement, and amass prodigious amounts of loot.
_m_ 10-23-06, 07:17 PM	Heh, and it sounds like the mod was all but over anyway and it wasn't going to hurt the party. At high level, I have to wonder how often suicide by giant occurs, simply to keep from retirement, and amass prodigious amounts of loot. anyone for triple multi class and CWI? :D
wooti 10-23-06, 08:23 PM	anyone for triple multi class and CWI? :D I have a 5th lv character that is about to triple multi class, originally it was an accedent (easiest way to qualify for a PrC I didn't have access to before) but I really don't see it as a huge dissadvantage in LG, if there is a rebuild comes along I may well change it to a build without exp loss.