APL for new Greyhawk Core Arc [Archive] - Wizards Community

APL for new Greyhawk Core Arc [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
catsclaw
03-03-07, 09:11 PM I've been thinking about the new Greyhawk Core arc, with its requirement that PC's start the arc at first level, and it occurs to me there's a possible power problem -- if everyone's running a first level characters through it at APL 2, there's going to be a lot of parties struggling to avoid a TPK.

I suspect a lot of people are going to be hiding behind packs of riding dogs and warhorses. Is this being considered in the tweaking of power levels? Anyone else think this is a possible issue?
King Kashue
03-03-07, 09:16 PM Anyone else think this is a possible issue?

No.

All intro modules are technically APL 2, even though only 1st level characters can run them.

Also, the first of the Bright Sands Arc was the same, and there were no issues there...
ShinAkuma2
03-03-07, 10:14 PM All intro modules are technically APL 2, even though only 1st level characters can run them.

A band of 6 lvl 1 characters IS an APL 2 table, so I suppose they assume you've got six at every intro.
King Kashue
03-03-07, 10:20 PM A band of 6 lvl 1 characters IS an APL 2 table, so I suppose they assume you've got six at every intro.

Or they call it "APL 2", and write it with an intro in mind...

It's not as if the authors are robots that don't comprehend the context of their activities :D
catsclaw
03-03-07, 11:56 PM A band of 6 lvl 1 characters IS an APL 2 table, so I suppose they assume you've got six at every intro.Yeah, but there's a big difference between an APL 3.2 that plays down, and an APL 1 table. The difficulty is especially pronounced at first level, when going to second level means virtually doubling the hit points of the party.

I would hope the authors realize they're designing an intro mod, not an APL 2 mod, but that's not necessarily the case. Throw in a slightly suboptimal group, and you've got a recipe for disaster.
King Kashue
03-04-07, 01:15 AM I would hope the authors realize they're designing an intro mod, not an APL 2 mod, but that's not necessarily the case. Throw in a slightly suboptimal group, and you've got a recipe for disaster.

It wasn't an issue in the slightest with the Blood on Bright Sands arc, and it hasn't been a problem in any of the dozen+ regional intro modules I've played (in at least four different regions). I really don't think that a group of multiple authors, at least one of them ex-circle, is going to forget they're writing an intro mod when dealing with a project as big and long in development as the Ruins series.
Timlagor
03-04-07, 09:47 AM It wasn't an issue in the slightest with the Blood on Bright Sands arc, and it hasn't been a problem in any of the dozen+ regional intro modules I've played (in at least four different regions). I really don't think that a group of multiple authors, at least one of them ex-circle, is going to forget they're writing an intro mod when dealing with a project as big and long in development as the Ruins series.

Now I know for a fact that you've played some of the Onnwal Intros and I'm pretty sure The Collector was one of them. Escape from Obelstone (final encounter) was also problematic for several groups.

Introductories do have a chequered history of being problematic. This seems to be less of an issue now and will be considerably alleviated by the ability of new characters to buy healing magic.

I think the big problem is that authors feel they have to have original or different enemies in LG modules because 'normal' ones will bore the players who've seen them all before.
Many players haven't seen them all before however and an Intro should certainly be more 'normal' imo.
King Kashue
03-04-07, 02:34 PM Now I know for a fact that you've played some of the Onnwal Intros and I'm pretty sure The Collector was one of them. Escape from Obelstone (final encounter) was also problematic for several groups.

Introductories do have a chequered history of being problematic. This seems to be less of an issue now and will be considerably alleviated by the ability of new characters to buy healing magic.

Those are both old intros though, written in the first year or two the concept existed (not counting something like Escape from Scant).

And Obelstone was written by Kerrigan...'Nuff said...
Mithreinmaethor
03-04-07, 07:11 PM Not to mention this is a 3 to 4 round long intro. So players will have to keep good track of their resources.
bitznarf
03-04-07, 11:27 PM It wasn't an issue in the slightest with the Blood on Bright Sands arc, and it hasn't been a problem in any of the dozen+ regional intro modules I've played (in at least four different regions). I really don't think that a group of multiple authors, at least one of them ex-circle, is going to forget they're writing an intro mod when dealing with a project as big and long in development as the Ruins series.

While this may be true for the group you played with, or any groups you ran through it, it *was* a problem for the group I played with. We had a table of 4, and we lacked a front line melee type. We got knorked. I'm not saying it was a bad mod, or unbalanced, just that combats can be problematic with 1st level characters. I *do* know why the first combat was tougher then normal for our group: no front line melee type.
King Kashue
03-04-07, 11:55 PM While this may be true for the group you played with, or any groups you ran through it, it *was* a problem for the group I played with. We had a table of 4, and we lacked a front line melee type. We got knorked. I'm not saying it was a bad mod, or unbalanced, just that combats can be problematic with 1st level characters. I *do* know why the first combat was tougher then normal for our group: no front line melee type.

Generally, any group without a melee guy is going to have an issue, especially at low levels. Just like not having a healer. That's not the mod's fault. Even the easiest mod in the world can be hard to a party of four bards. :D
bitznarf
03-05-07, 03:12 PM Generally, any group without a melee guy is going to have an issue, especially at low levels. Just like not having a healer. That's not the mod's fault. Even the easiest mod in the world can be hard to a party of four bards. :D

Welcome to the area I play in.. the highest level cleric within a 5 hour drive is level 7 if I recall correctly. Druids (of which there is 1 above level 4) can fill in somewhat, more so with after combat healing.
King Kashue
03-05-07, 06:22 PM Welcome to the area I play in.. the highest level cleric within a 5 hour drive is level 7 if I recall correctly. Druids (of which there is 1 above level 4) can fill in somewhat, more so with after combat healing.

Ouch...:eek:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
catsclaw 03-03-07, 09:11 PM	I've been thinking about the new Greyhawk Core arc, with its requirement that PC's start the arc at first level, and it occurs to me there's a possible power problem -- if everyone's running a first level characters through it at APL 2, there's going to be a lot of parties struggling to avoid a TPK. I suspect a lot of people are going to be hiding behind packs of riding dogs and warhorses. Is this being considered in the tweaking of power levels? Anyone else think this is a possible issue?
King Kashue 03-03-07, 09:16 PM	Anyone else think this is a possible issue? No. All intro modules are technically APL 2, even though only 1st level characters can run them. Also, the first of the Bright Sands Arc was the same, and there were no issues there...
ShinAkuma2 03-03-07, 10:14 PM	All intro modules are technically APL 2, even though only 1st level characters can run them. A band of 6 lvl 1 characters IS an APL 2 table, so I suppose they assume you've got six at every intro.
King Kashue 03-03-07, 10:20 PM	A band of 6 lvl 1 characters IS an APL 2 table, so I suppose they assume you've got six at every intro. Or they call it "APL 2", and write it with an intro in mind... It's not as if the authors are robots that don't comprehend the context of their activities :D
catsclaw 03-03-07, 11:56 PM	A band of 6 lvl 1 characters IS an APL 2 table, so I suppose they assume you've got six at every intro.Yeah, but there's a big difference between an APL 3.2 that plays down, and an APL 1 table. The difficulty is especially pronounced at first level, when going to second level means virtually doubling the hit points of the party. I would hope the authors realize they're designing an intro mod, not an APL 2 mod, but that's not necessarily the case. Throw in a slightly suboptimal group, and you've got a recipe for disaster.
King Kashue 03-04-07, 01:15 AM	I would hope the authors realize they're designing an intro mod, not an APL 2 mod, but that's not necessarily the case. Throw in a slightly suboptimal group, and you've got a recipe for disaster. It wasn't an issue in the slightest with the Blood on Bright Sands arc, and it hasn't been a problem in any of the dozen+ regional intro modules I've played (in at least four different regions). I really don't think that a group of multiple authors, at least one of them ex-circle, is going to forget they're writing an intro mod when dealing with a project as big and long in development as the Ruins series.
Timlagor 03-04-07, 09:47 AM	It wasn't an issue in the slightest with the Blood on Bright Sands arc, and it hasn't been a problem in any of the dozen+ regional intro modules I've played (in at least four different regions). I really don't think that a group of multiple authors, at least one of them ex-circle, is going to forget they're writing an intro mod when dealing with a project as big and long in development as the Ruins series. Now I know for a fact that you've played some of the Onnwal Intros and I'm pretty sure The Collector was one of them. Escape from Obelstone (final encounter) was also problematic for several groups. Introductories do have a chequered history of being problematic. This seems to be less of an issue now and will be considerably alleviated by the ability of new characters to buy healing magic. I think the big problem is that authors feel they have to have original or different enemies in LG modules because 'normal' ones will bore the players who've seen them all before. Many players haven't seen them all before however and an Intro should certainly be more 'normal' imo.
King Kashue 03-04-07, 02:34 PM	Now I know for a fact that you've played some of the Onnwal Intros and I'm pretty sure The Collector was one of them. Escape from Obelstone (final encounter) was also problematic for several groups. Introductories do have a chequered history of being problematic. This seems to be less of an issue now and will be considerably alleviated by the ability of new characters to buy healing magic. Those are both old intros though, written in the first year or two the concept existed (not counting something like Escape from Scant). And Obelstone was written by Kerrigan...'Nuff said...
Mithreinmaethor 03-04-07, 07:11 PM	Not to mention this is a 3 to 4 round long intro. So players will have to keep good track of their resources.
bitznarf 03-04-07, 11:27 PM	It wasn't an issue in the slightest with the Blood on Bright Sands arc, and it hasn't been a problem in any of the dozen+ regional intro modules I've played (in at least four different regions). I really don't think that a group of multiple authors, at least one of them ex-circle, is going to forget they're writing an intro mod when dealing with a project as big and long in development as the Ruins series. While this may be true for the group you played with, or any groups you ran through it, it was a problem for the group I played with. We had a table of 4, and we lacked a front line melee type. We got knorked. I'm not saying it was a bad mod, or unbalanced, just that combats can be problematic with 1st level characters. I do know why the first combat was tougher then normal for our group: no front line melee type.
King Kashue 03-04-07, 11:55 PM	While this may be true for the group you played with, or any groups you ran through it, it was a problem for the group I played with. We had a table of 4, and we lacked a front line melee type. We got knorked. I'm not saying it was a bad mod, or unbalanced, just that combats can be problematic with 1st level characters. I do know why the first combat was tougher then normal for our group: no front line melee type. Generally, any group without a melee guy is going to have an issue, especially at low levels. Just like not having a healer. That's not the mod's fault. Even the easiest mod in the world can be hard to a party of four bards. :D
bitznarf 03-05-07, 03:12 PM	Generally, any group without a melee guy is going to have an issue, especially at low levels. Just like not having a healer. That's not the mod's fault. Even the easiest mod in the world can be hard to a party of four bards. :D Welcome to the area I play in.. the highest level cleric within a 5 hour drive is level 7 if I recall correctly. Druids (of which there is 1 above level 4) can fill in somewhat, more so with after combat healing.
King Kashue 03-05-07, 06:22 PM	Welcome to the area I play in.. the highest level cleric within a 5 hour drive is level 7 if I recall correctly. Druids (of which there is 1 above level 4) can fill in somewhat, more so with after combat healing. Ouch...:eek: