Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LGMoses 01-24-07, 10:50 PM	What am I as a Judge goign to notice happening as the APL's of my adventures slowly start to rise. What is the first thing I'm really goign to notice? What is important to know?
Reska 01-24-07, 11:02 PM	First off, decide early what the maximum APL you're comfortable running is. For some people (like me) it's no higher than APL10. I'm just not comfortable running higher level people. Secondly, remember that as the APL grows, so do the tricks that the players can pull out of thin air. Be flexible, but not soft. Be strict but don't break. Okay cliches don't work for me, but you get the idea. Third, do some research on each of the APL's in the module (provided you get the module ahead of time), and prepare for each accordingly.
clannagh 01-24-07, 11:02 PM	What am I as a Judge goign to notice happening as the APL's of my adventures slowly start to rise. What is the first thing I'm really goign to notice? What is important to know? that the APL increasing requires more than a collection of higher level well built characters higher APL encounters tend to need better tactics, a cohoherent party with no major iconic characters missing and a lot more team work your players cannot just assume they can play the same tactics and party dynamics at higher levels .. they have to play smarter
Stormydoom 01-24-07, 11:03 PM	Odviously there are harder fights with higher EL's than lower apls. Sometimes there's just more monsters of the same type, or they advance the monsters by giving them a few HD or class levels. Tactics also change with APL which is important to know (I hate a DM who doesn't follow the appropriate tactics of the creatures laid out by the module). The trap DC's should also get tougher and so should DC's to certain skill checks. EG. At APL 4 the DC is 10 to jump the chasm but at APL 8 the DC is 15.
Lomiat 01-24-07, 11:25 PM	LGMoses, if you're asking what you should expect as a GM running mods for your local playgroup(s) as they advance levels, then I think you'll find a few things to be true: 1) Combats start to take a lot more time. Ironically enough, the number of rounds that combats last tend to drop even while the real-world duration of the same combats tends to increase. If you want to keep things moving quickly, decide how much you feel obligated to look up every rule in the book versus trusting your players, set a limit on how much time you'll allow players to think and rethink their strategies before they actually act and roll the dice, read those stat blocks in advance to sort through the three pages of one encounter, and if you know your player base well, learn how their characters' builds work (so you can cut off certain rules issues in advance... Got a tripper in your party? Learn the trip rules). 2) Players have other options for approaching the mod than letting the boxed-text hook them and drag them around, and they like to use them. The party has to get from point A to point B which is a week-long boat ride away? Okay, they'll Teleport. But... um.... that misses the whole mod. You, as a DM, should anticipate such problems and figure out your approach to such a situation in-story and in-character. 3) This is probably a sub-point for item 1, but monsters get weird. They get a million templates and special abilities. They get class levels. They require a fairly solid knowledge of the rules, and you'll catch on as you keep working with them. If you want things to run smoothly, though, you can investigate your monsters before running them. That should help. 4) Players want their characters to feel epic at higher levels. Why not? I mean, isn't that why we keep advancing them and investing in all that magical gear (instead of the retirement home)? Reward them with a little NPC notice; adjust NPC attitudes according to your perception of the PCs' reputations (though a 12th-level fighter isn't quite as big a deal in Greyhawk as he might be back in his hamlet in Highfolk). Also, expect them to do dumb things, like attack every untiered encounter in existence or try to smack the nobles back in line. 5) Players get accumulate really weird gear and AR favors. If any of this stuff is going to matter, you might want to have people check for it in advance of the session.
LGMoses 01-24-07, 11:36 PM	LGMoses, if you're asking what you should expect as a GM running mods for your local playgroup(s) as they advance levels, then I think you'll find a few things to be true: 1) Combats start to take a lot more time. Ironically enough, the number of rounds that combats last tend to drop even while the real-world duration of the same combats tends to increase. If you want to keep things moving quickly, decide how much you feel obligated to look up every rule in the book versus trusting your players, set a limit on how much time you'll allow players to think and rethink their strategies before they actually act and roll the dice, read those stat blocks in advance to sort through the three pages of one encounter, and if you know your player base well, learn how their characters' builds work (so you can cut off certain rules issues in advance... Got a tripper in your party? Learn the trip rules). 2) Players have other options for approaching the mod than letting the boxed-text hook them and drag them around, and they like to use them. The party has to get from point A to point B which is a week-long boat ride away? Okay, they'll Teleport. But... um.... that misses the whole mod. You, as a DM, should anticipate such problems and figure out your approach to such a situation in-story and in-character. 3) This is probably a sub-point for item 1, but monsters get weird. They get a million templates and special abilities. They get class levels. They require a fairly solid knowledge of the rules, and you'll catch on as you keep working with them. If you want things to run smoothly, though, you can investigate your monsters before running them. That should help. 4) Players want their characters to feel epic at higher levels. Why not? I mean, isn't that why we keep advancing them and investing in all that magical gear (instead of the retirement home)? Reward them with a little NPC notice; adjust NPC attitudes according to your perception of the PCs' reputations (though a 12th-level fighter isn't quite as big a deal in Greyhawk as he might be back in his hamlet in Highfolk). Also, expect them to do dumb things, like attack every untiered encounter in existence or try to smack the nobles back in line. 5) Players get accumulate really weird gear and AR favors. If any of this stuff is going to matter, you might want to have people check for it in advance of the session. thanks, these are all really good points. U are all doing some good.
bitznarf 01-25-07, 12:27 AM	I've found this to be an priceless tool myself. The parts you may want to look at in particular is section 3: Prepare the Combats. It has a few things that others have indeed already mentioned, but it never hurts to have it all set out in an orderly fashion in one document. I don't personally play with the folks who wrote this up (as they are about a 9-10 hour drive away) but I found it to be a very useful read anyway. http://egor.walledcity.ca/downloads/DMguidelines.doc
Akhamshyy 01-25-07, 01:58 AM	I cut my teeth judging on APL 2-4. Those are the APLs I remember fondly as I wait patiently for the cleric 12 playing down at my APL 10 table to do his thing and ruin some poor NPCs' day. Rounds can seem like they take forever and player options abound. That's great for the player, but as a judge I won't run those levels unless a con desperately needs me to. I've found my comfort zone at APLs 6-8, I can still challenge the players, they've got sweet abilities, and there are more interesting (i.e. fun) encounters. As a judge you will notice when it gets burdensome, if it gets burdensome. I know plenty of judges who jump at the chance to run high level, others who never go near. Judges need to feel comfortable playing at an APL before they can get comfortable running at that APL. You may be running the show but you're still a player yourself. If you are not having a good time of it, your players may empathize and get no fun out of it either. Find your balance, choose your modules, learn the mod, and know the monsters. And keep a good mood up; we're here to have fun. Some of the characters may die, but the fun never should. All the preparing and all the paperwork should only help to this goal.
Dr.Cornelius 01-25-07, 02:24 AM	Based on some other threads, I think you will find as the levels increase that permanently killing characters becomes more satisfying. And some mods are conveniently set up to assist in this effort...
Britt 01-25-07, 03:09 AM	What are you talking about?!? Killing characters permanently should almost never happen. You should always look for a way to avoid doing that, if at all possible. That is one of the fastest ways to drive someone away from the campaign. Sure, it happens, but you shouldn't be taking satisfaction out of it.
Dr.Cornelius 01-25-07, 03:35 AM	Hmmm... guess I missed the point. Some modules I have read about on the boards appear designed for attrition. Why else the Vrock flying off with a grappled character?
Britt 01-25-07, 03:47 AM	From what I recall of that thread, that was a DM that was trying to do that, not the mod. I could be misremembering, though. There are definitely bad DMs out there that don't understand the concept of not driving off players just for a quick laugh at their plight.
awroe 01-25-07, 04:02 AM	Pay close attention to the spells available to high level casters - if you haven't played a character capable of casting them you might struggle to work out the best strategy for them. AW.
Bogjob 01-25-07, 12:22 PM	Everything can be solved by prepping before you run the game, I realise that you might not get the chance if a mod is given to at a Con at short notice, but I find reading and re reading ,the npc's especially, helps a lot as it gives you time to suss out the npc's tactics and weird abilities/spells/feats etc. Run the bad guys like a party instead of a collection of encounters and you can really give the players something to think about and provide them with a much better challenge. One thing to watch out for though is that the higher you go up in Apl's the more dangerous it gets all round, our charcters are starting to get hit with and dish out 'save or die' spells etc, be very careful you know exactly what to do in these instances.
Cardinal Teplin 01-25-07, 01:52 PM	As a DM you'll end up having to adjuicate far more spells, from the monsters, from the PCs, from the enviroment. H
Some_call_me_Tim 01-26-07, 01:02 PM	The first thing is expect to do more preparation. You need to be familiar with all the NPC/monster spells and powers. If the module doesn't have tactics, sketch out a battle plan ahead of time as it will save making the players wait while you look up a spell to see what it does. The second thing is expect the unexpected. At the higher APLs you will find characters with vast reserves of cheese to call upon. Especially with the plethora of books available you will likely see things you haven't heard of. These will often 'break' encounters All I can say is trust but verify. Trust your players to police one another and not lie about their abilities, but if some feat/spell/ability you've never heard of will completely break the encounter don't be afraid to ask to see the book. I have had experiences with players using, how shall I say it, very liberal and creative interpretations of rules. I'm definitely not saying challenge everything, but if it ends an encounter too quickly it might not be fair/fun for the other players, so check it out. If its legit, congratulate the player and move on; don't try to nerf it as a lot of these abilities have a very complex build behind them.
Camden 01-26-07, 02:15 PM	What am I as a Judge goign to notice happening as the APL's of my adventures slowly start to rise. What is the first thing I'm really goign to notice? What is important to know? Prep the module. At low levels, you can skim read the module (or run it cold if you really have to) and pick out the pertinent information. As mentioned before the the badguys/monsters get more complicated at Higher APL's as does their abilites. Use a Highlighter Pen. TBH I do this with any mod these days. But I find it invaluable in High APL mods. Box Text doesn't need to be highlighted, just the things like 'Spot check DC xyz'. The bits that you read in the mod, but when you come to check it there is no way to find it. Things to remember in stat blocks. Use a Disclaimer at the begining of the Mod. I do it whenever I'm running at a Con, or for people I don't know/only met a few times. Something like... "Hi I'm <blah>, and I'll be your Ref for this Mod. Just so you know I am not the Oracle of all Knowledge, and I haven't commited every single rule to memory, so if I do something that really confuse you, just ask nicely. Oh and if you cast a spell, I'd appreciate it if you had it to hand so I can have a look if i don't know the spell myself" :) Ask the Players about their Characters. Just a quick "So what do we have on the table" you can guess the sterotypes. That way you know what a player may or may not be able to do. Ask about their Build "Oh so your like a Barbarian raging froth machine, and You blow stuff up?" Means your not open to surprises when combat kicks off. Ask about anything 'special' you should be aware of. Higher Apl's means access to some slightly weirder and wackier items/favors. Don't be afraid to ask questions of the Players. If someone goes slightly to fast for you, ask them to slow down what they're doing and walk you through it. I've seen players, talk really fast, move the figure, make 6 tumble checks and confirm a crit in the space of 4 seconds, while the ref is checking the stat block. The ref quiet rightly asked him to go back to the begining and start again. If something seems a little dubious, just ask the player how he did it. At higher APL's the Characters have more 'tricks' available to them, and will use them as much as possible. Just ask how they do it. "AC 46 doesn't hit you ? How did you get to your AC that high ?" It only takes a minute of the player explaining how it happens. Keep the combat moving. Higher APL's can have combat over in 10 minutes, or it can go on for 2 hours. If you have time spare great. If your at a Con you need to keep it moving. There's alot that goes on at higher levels, and in between combat actions players will start chatting about what they did last night, previous mods etc, which may slow down the combat. If you have player that waits till his turn to decide what to do everyround, ask them nicely to at least think about what they would like to do when it's their go. Speeds things up no end. Delegate Initative tracking. Some people like this, some don't. Personally I think it depends on the encounter. If it's a straight forward 1 bad guy vs Party, it doesn't really matter. If your running mulitple bad guys, then it can slow things down if your having to run the initative, and work out what they are doing, and then get the players to act. Have it somewhere where you can see it as well so you can follow whats going on (if you run it as a table form, rather than cards). The person sitting near you, in my experince is normally the player that likes to help out, or pay attention. Play some high level games if possible It gets you used to some of the things that will happen. Watch someone run High APL Combats (if they don't mind). Spare slot at a Con ? Just wander round the Gaming room (if your allowed) and see how things are done. Don't stand right behind the ref and stare atthe stat block, just watch as an onlooker and see how they do it.
Britt 01-26-07, 03:15 PM	I will be running high APL LG special rounds at DDXP. If anyone wants to watch, I'll allow one or maybe two people to watch as long as they don't do anything to interrupt the game. You might also be pressganged into tracking info for me :) One of my favorite questions is "Does anyone have anything I need to know about, such as weird class abilities, curses, immunity to enchantments, see invisibility, or anything like that?" You'll usually get too much information as people like to brag about neat things, but too much is better than having things sprung on you.
_m_ 01-29-07, 06:12 PM	I will be running high APL LG special rounds at DDXP. If anyone wants to watch, I'll allow one or maybe two people to watch as long as they don't do anything to interrupt the game. You might also be pressganged into tracking info for me :) One of my favorite questions is "Does anyone have anything I need to know about, such as weird class abilities, curses, immunity to enchantments, see invisibility, or anything like that?" You'll usually get too much information as people like to brag about neat things, but too much is better than having things sprung on you. Find out what classes you have sitting at the table, then ask about anything you dont know about. for example, the fighter pious templar is easy: just ask him if hes a chainer, a bdf, a charge brute, a cavalier, that sort of thing, and you've got him down pat. by apl 12 and up, the players with tricky builds should be able to show you what they do, and what rules they use, pretty quickly. Even the noctumancer mutt wizard should be capable of showing u his reference books, and telling you how it all works, in just a few minutes. remember, at higher APL, everyone has unusual tricks up there sleaves. make sure you know about them b4 the mod, dont try n learn them during.
Lomiat 01-29-07, 06:42 PM	remember, at higher APL, everyone has unusual tricks up there sleaves. make sure you know about them b4 the mod, dont try n learn them during. Personally, I don't ask everyone to teach me about their tricks before the mod. I think it leads to metagaming on the DM's part, subconscious or otherwise. Also, I'm a fairly trusting judge, so if someone pulls off a neat trick, I just smile and clear the bad guys from the table. If it seems completely out of whack, I'll slow the game for 30 seconds to learn how it happened (whereas I expect it would take 20 minutes before the game to learn everyone's tricks that MIGHT be relevent). I might ask players what their characters look like (is the wizard typically garbed in chainmail thanks to a hat of disguise? does the fighter wear glamored armor to look like a robed scholar?) to inform my NPCs' reactions to them, but I don't really care in advance to know if a guy is a chain fighter or a mounted archer; they'll show me at the appropriate time.
_m_ 01-29-07, 09:47 PM	Personally, I don't ask everyone to teach me about their tricks before the mod. I think it leads to metagaming on the DM's part, subconscious or otherwise. Also, I'm a fairly trusting judge, so if someone pulls off a neat trick, I just smile and clear the bad guys from the table. If it seems completely out of whack, I'll slow the game for 30 seconds to learn how it happened (whereas I expect it would take 20 minutes before the game to learn everyone's tricks that MIGHT be relevent). I might ask players what their characters look like (is the wizard typically garbed in chainmail thanks to a hat of disguise? does the fighter wear glamored armor to look like a robed scholar?) to inform my NPCs' reactions to them, but I don't really care in advance to know if a guy is a chain fighter or a mounted archer; they'll show me at the appropriate time. normally i'd agree... but what if i sit down, and im playing a gnome wizard. combat comes around: i instant counterspell your first spell. i do an immidiate action teleport when you try and hit me, then hit you with a 15d8 cone attack with will save instead of reflex, then instant teleport back to where i was, followed by dispelling ur armour, and the recasting said armour on myself. if i'd told you i could do all these things before combat, u wudnt make me go and get all my books and certs to show you how its done, because trusting or not, no dm is going to believe u have 10 round immidaiate reactionary dimension door that you can act after casting, unless you show them.
Lomiat 01-29-07, 11:11 PM	if i'd told you i could do all these things before combat, u wudnt make me go and get all my books and certs to show you how its done, because trusting or not, no dm is going to believe u have 10 round immidaiate reactionary dimension door that you can act after casting, unless you show them. Well, actually... Having played the mod that gave you access to the instant counterspell, the cone attack, and some other stuff... I'd say "kudos," unless I had a hard time believing that you managed to fit all that GP on your 11th level character... or something. That sort of thing (a gp audit) would wait until after the game, if I felt it was necessary... Certainly, I'd want to see the character build at some point so I could learn how to cheeze out my character, too. And the only point that might catch me as a rules lawyer-ish thing: if I hadn't been reminded of it on the boards around here not long ago, I'd have to double-check the Teleport spell to make certain it didn't have the "no actions after it's cast for the remainder of the round" type stipulation that Dim Door has. Well, okay, I'd also make you roll your percentile chance to end up elsewhere unless you had perfect Teleport (whatever level that spell is). So, yeah, there might be a slight delay, but I think the whole table might take a slight delay in such a situation to admire your ring and spell access and so on and so forth...
_metz_ 01-29-07, 11:35 PM	The most important thing to consider is that as APLs go up,stuff doesn't jsut get more HPs and a bigger attack. Things are smarter, more adventuring gear is required, and there are a lot of nasty tricks. Its all about prepping the mod, checking up on everything your beasties can do.
Dr.Cornelius 01-30-07, 02:09 AM	normally i'd agree... but what if i sit down, and im playing a gnome wizard. combat comes around: i instant counterspell your first spell. i do an immidiate action teleport when you try and hit me, then hit you with a 15d8 cone attack with will save instead of reflex, then instant teleport back to where i was, followed by dispelling ur armour, and the recasting said armour on myself. if i'd told you i could do all these things before combat, u wudnt make me go and get all my books and certs to show you how its done, because trusting or not, no dm is going to believe u have 10 round immidaiate reactionary dimension door that you can act after casting, unless you show them.And people say that the D&D rules start to break down after 10th level or so. I can't imagine why anyone would think that many immediate actions is problematic...
Camden 01-30-07, 03:40 AM	And people say that the D&D rules start to break down after 10th level or so. I can't imagine why anyone would think that many immediate actions is problematic... Shouldn't be an issue at all. pg86 Complete Arcane states 1 Immediate action a round (but can be used between your actions on other peoples Iniative)
UMiskatonic 01-30-07, 12:17 PM	You'll see more variation. At 2nd level, all fighters are the same, more or less. " I power attack for 2, yeah" At 12th level, fighters will have completed feat chains, and probably specialized in particular flavors of fighting. They will also be more likely to have special magic items, curses, unique cohorts, etc. High level characters will tend to be VERY good at the things they are good at. The difference between well-played, well-constructed and shabby builds that can't remember to buy a ranged weapon is immense at higher APLs. Mods will swing in difficulty a great deal, depending on who sits down. And finally, a table of four bards, a druid, and a swashbuckler will work at APL 2. By APL 10, you need better balance, and by APL 14, you REALLY need it.
LGMoses 01-30-07, 02:38 PM	immediate and swift actions confuse and anger me. Possible because I haven't looked at them close enough. All I know is that I don't like hearing the words "in response to..." while playing dnd.:tantrum:
Camden 01-30-07, 02:53 PM	immediate and swift actions confuse and anger me. Possible because I haven't looked at them close enough. All I know is that I don't like hearing the words "in response to..." while playing dnd.:tantrum: You should only hear "In response to" once/round from a player (when it's not there go) If you have a copy of the Spell compendium pg4 explains it all, as do pg89 out of Complete Arcane (if you have a copy of that) Basiclly, if someone casts a Quickened Spell, that is now considered a 'Swift Action'. Any Spell that has the casting of Swift, is treated the same. You can only do swift things on your go, and You can only cast 1 'Swift' action per round. If you cast an 'Immediate' spell *on your go* that is considered a 'Swift Spell' You can only have 1 Immediate action per round (where a round is from the end your Initative to the begining of your next Initative. I think thats right, kinda from memory at the moment so if I'm wrong someone will point it out (just don't ask why i have those page numbers inbedded into my head) ;)
LGMoses 01-30-07, 02:58 PM	I just don't like hearing Magic terminology while playing Dnd. Also, I think all of these smaller issue types are kind of convoluting things. But maybe thats just me...
Istaran 01-30-07, 03:26 PM	Camden, you missed the part about an immediate action when it's not your turn counts as your swift action for your next turn. Otherwise, got it. :thumbsup:
_m_ 01-30-07, 05:02 PM	hate to bring in more magic terminology, but there are kind of triggered effects in d&d too. contingency is a good example.
Britt 01-30-07, 05:12 PM	I believe contingency counts as your immediate/swift action for the round, though I could be wrong.
_m_ 01-30-07, 05:32 PM	I believe contingency counts as your immediate/swift action for the round, though I could be wrong. i've never actually used it, so i cant say. but there are some abilities that fire as reactions, without technically using any of your actions. also, exactly what constitutes 1 round? does it last until the start of the initiative order?
Britt 01-30-07, 05:34 PM	Beginning of your action to beginning of your action.
Drezden 01-30-07, 05:46 PM	I believe contingency counts as your immediate/swift action for the round, though I could be wrong. I don't believe that is correct as a matter of course. Since most contingencies are reactive, they would seem to be no action at all. A contingent fireshield if attacked would not take any effort to come into being - it just would - and it couldn't be stopped. Certaintly some contingencies might involve some sort of action - but reactive ones shouldn't take any action at all. Yes, that is a powerful effect that will enable you to (possibly) get 3 spell effects in a round. However, you are blowing a 6th level spot for this, the spell cast is limited to personal ones, and once the condition is set, it can't be changed. So it is hardly overpowering. Daren
Lomiat 01-30-07, 05:48 PM	I believe contingency counts as your immediate/swift action for the round, though I could be wrong. I believe you're wrong. I'm not looking at the book right now, but the idea of Contingency is that it doesn't require an action to activate whatever spell is cast into the Contingency. That's why it's "contingent." Of course, someone could set the Contingency's trigger to be an action of some sort, but that would just be silly. An immediate action requires the PC to actually act. With the Contingency, the PC has already acted, typically several hours/days earlier (and over the span of 10 minutes or more, too). So, yeah, to go back to m's example, one could have a move action / standard action / swift action /contingency triggered / familiar's move action / familiar's standard action. Next person acts, immediate action sets in; if anyone gets access to various PHB II stuff, then another standard action could follow (possibly another full-round action). Yep, lots of madness.
_m_ 01-30-07, 06:04 PM	Beginning of your action to beginning of your action. so you could use an immidiate action just before your action, and then just after your action, as they would fall into 2 different rounds. (assuming of course that u then didnt use another one until after your action again, as u would alrerady have used your immidiate for that round.
Camden 01-30-07, 08:52 PM	so you could use an immidiate action just before your action, and then just after your action, as they would fall into 2 different rounds. (assuming of course that u then didnt use another one until after your action again, as u would alrerady have used your immidiate for that round. To wind up LG Moses with more Magic Terminolgy... ;) Yes, you can m. As long as the Immediate action comes beforw the start of your go. It's like Instants being played in the End phase of your opponents go. But that's what you get when a company that makes CCG's for a living also does RPG's. At the end of the Bad Guy's action, you take may take your immediate action. Then at the begining of your go it all resets. I don't believe Contigency works that way. The spell merly sits and waits to be triggered, and there is no mention of it taking a players action when it is triggered. Effectivly after anything occours, the Contigency spell 'checks' to see if anything has oocoured to cause it to trigger. It may help to think of it as a player on a Permenant readied Action http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contingency.htm If the Contigency is set to be 'When my Character says "Rary is Da Man"'. Then it will check whenever anything occours to see if the trigger has occoured. Obviously it can't really happen out of your turn as you can only really speak on your Action (with Table Variation). If the Contingency is 'When my Character takes physical Damage, Blink is cast' this will check on every action still, but won't be triggered till the conditions are met.
Istaran 02-01-07, 03:31 PM	At the end of the Bad Guy's action, you take may take your immediate action. Then at the begining of your go it all resets. Not quite: immediate action uses up your swift action for your following go. Therefore, it resets at the end of your go, not the beginning. So instead of might as well do the immediate action right before your turn comes up, it's might as well do the swift or immediate action during your turn as it will reset afterwards.