Post/Author/DateTime	Post
denny1824 01-29-07, 03:03 PM	I was in a mod where the DM said I was acting against my lawful good alignment when I fealt that I was doing it right. Instead of giving spoilers to the mod I will give an alternate example: You are next to be before a small claims court judge. In the case before you, the judge strongly rules in favor of the plaintiff, who you know has secretly bribed that judge. What would be an appropriate action for a Lawful Good Character to do? Since I am not going to give spoilers, I wont say how you know the judge was bribed or why you are there. The question is soley in response to the ruling.
Japangirl 01-29-07, 03:14 PM	How Lawful Good are you (ie more Good than Lawful, more Lawful than Good, Lawful Stupid, etc)? What are the repercussions of denouncing the judge and plaintiff for bribery? Will massive evil break out if you bring up the corruption, or is it just personally inconvenient to you to mention it? Without knowing more about the character and total situation, it's really hard to say.
bhale187 01-29-07, 03:24 PM	There is certainly no 1 "correct" response. How about you just tell us what you did and people can tell you if they think it was an appropriate reaction for a L/G character
kenobi65 01-29-07, 03:36 PM	Instead of giving spoilers to the mod I will give an alternate example: You are next to be before a small claims court judge. In the case before you, the judge strongly rules in favor of the plaintiff, who you know has secretly bribed that judge. What would be an appropriate action for a Lawful Good Character to do? Since I am not going to give spoilers, I wont say how you know the judge was bribed or why you are there. The question is soley in response to the ruling. Well, I think I recognize which module we're talking about here. :) As Japangirl suggests, Lawful Good does not necessarily mean "stupid". I don't think there's any one "correct" action for a LG character to take here. You need to consider what the ramifications would be for you to take action. If denouncing the judge hampers or prevents you from accomplishing your mission (which I assume to be good in nature), then it may not be a wise course of action. In addition, you need to consider what the societal "laws", both overt and implicit, are in the country in which you find yourself. It's entirely possible that bribery is the accepted way that things are done there, even by those of good alignment. (Honestly, I'm tired of players and DMs who believe that Lawful Good *must* equal "rigid and holier than thou".)
smerwin29 01-29-07, 03:41 PM	I was in a mod where the DM said I was acting against my lawful good alignment when I fealt that I was doing it right. Instead of giving spoilers to the mod I will give an alternate example: You are next to be before a small claims court judge. In the case before you, the judge strongly rules in favor of the plaintiff, who you know has secretly bribed that judge. What would be an appropriate action for a Lawful Good Character to do? Since I am not going to give spoilers, I wont say how you know the judge was bribed or why you are there. The question is soley in response to the ruling. So many factors weigh into this that it is hard to answer. --How do the laws of the land you were in handle such things? Is bribery considered an accepted part of the legal system? --How grave was the outcome of the trial? Life and death? Monetary? Lost pride? Lost honor? --Was the bribery used to get an unfair result? Or did the bribery just "grease the wheels of justice?" --What was your Lawful Good character's reaction? Did his/her reaction threaten the stability of the agreed-upon legal system, or threaten a person within that legal system? Was there a way to rectify the "injustice" without resorting to threatening legitimate (if shady) laws and traditions? I despise the alignment system in D&D. Rather than helping the game, it is a hindrance to roleplaying and adds confusion when dealing with the intersection between alignment and game rules. Rather than look at "I'm lawful good so what should I do," think about it in terms of a real person in a real situation. If you are in a courtroom and see something hinky going on, what would you do? Alignment should dictate whether you care or not; common sense and intelligence should dictate what to do about it. My two cents, Shawn
LachlarlanIII 01-29-07, 04:04 PM	If you had absolute proof that the judge had taken a bribe (solid evidence if you will), then I believe bringing allegations against the judge and plaintiff to the local police/FBI-like organization would be the most Lawful course of action. If that didn't work, sharing it with the media/public would IMO be the most Good course of action. Lawful because you're using the system to end the corruption, and Good because you've showed the people that they can't trust their civic leaders. Of course, the location of the corruption has a strong bearing on how far that gets you. In a place like Greyhawk City, the judge and plaintiff would probably be arrested, while in Highport the judge and plaintiff would bribe the arresting officers and then have you killed or arrested again on trumped up charges. Just my opinion.
rockondon 01-29-07, 07:13 PM	I played a mod recently with that exact situation. Assuming its the same mod, we were able to question the witnesses appropriately to defeat every one of their testimonies (except for one I think). Regardless of alignment conflicts, the module provided a playable solution to the corruption you mentioned. Alignment-wise, lawful good often causes conflict between players and GMs. I've seen some GMs that have some unfounded notion that lawful good have to be sickeningly holier than thou - they must subdue everything, drag subdued monsters back to some higher order to decide its fate, fight fair, etc etc. Any GM that thinks their personal notion of lawful good overrides what the book says is a poor GM imho.
GrahamWills 01-29-07, 07:41 PM	Lawful good people are confused, as are all the people in the corners of the alignment table. Essentially every action has to be weighed. Sometimes there will be a conflict between law and good. Actually this one seems fairly simple. Assuming that bribery is not part ofthe system, then the judge is both unlawful and wrong. Much harder is the "a slave is about to be killed for being too slow to get a meal ready and begs you for help". A lawful character hands them back to their owner, a good person tries to help them. A lawful good person sits there with brain feeeze ...
LGMoses 01-29-07, 10:38 PM	(Honestly, I'm tired of players and DMs who believe that Lawful Good *must* equal "rigid and holier than thou".) yeah, I think everyone is.
LGMoses 01-29-07, 10:40 PM	Much harder is the "a slave is about to be killed for being too slow to get a meal ready and begs you for help". A lawful character hands them back to their owner, a good person tries to help them. A lawful good person sits there with brain feeeze ... doesn't slavery of sentient humanoids = evil?
rockondon 01-29-07, 11:17 PM	Much harder is the "a slave is about to be killed for being too slow to get a meal ready and begs you for help". A lawful character hands them back to their owner, a good person tries to help them. A lawful good person sits there with brain feeeze ... if a lawful person would do A, and a good person would do B, would you not agree that a lawful good person can choose either A or B?
cycloptic_squirrel 01-29-07, 11:27 PM	if a lawful person would do A, and a good person would do B, would you not agree that a lawful good person can choose either A or B? Why does it have to be A or B? What about option C of reasoning with or calming the angry master, or D of offering to purchase said slave, or Tau of just saying 'screw this I'm bored' and fireballing everything in sight? Wait, that last one might not be Lawful Good according to a strict interpretation of the rules...
frupton 01-30-07, 12:07 AM	doesn't slavery of sentient humanoids = evil? Sure. But in some socieities it is lawful. Does Lawful Good disobey the laws it doesn't like? Regarding the original topic, I would expect a Lawful Good char to report the corrupt judge to the appropriate authorities, assuming that he has some valid evidence of it and that such authorities exist. If you're on trial in a Chaotic Neutral Kingdom, then that's pointless. Reporting said judge to the authorities as corrupt immediatelyis of course likely to prejudice his ruling in your case. So I don't see that Lawful Good is required to charge him with accepting bribes before you have your case heard. If you're concerned about appearing before said judge at all, I suggest that you ask the opposing party in your case whether or not they've bribed the judge, and have a high enough sense motive to discern if they're honest in their reply.
rockondon 01-30-07, 12:17 AM	Why does it have to be A or B? What about option C of reasoning with or calming the angry master, or D of offering to purchase said slave, or Tau of just saying 'screw this I'm bored' and fireballing everything in sight? I wasn't talking about any specific situation, hence the reason I used A and B as arbitrary symbols for any general situation. The point I was trying to make was that if half your alignment leans toward action A, and half leans toward action B, either choice would likely not be in violation of your alignment.
cycloptic_squirrel 01-30-07, 12:36 AM	I wasn't talking about any specific situation, hence the reason I used A and B as arbitrary symbols for any general situation. The point I was trying to make was that if half your alignment leans toward action A, and half leans toward action B, either choice would likely not be in violation of your alignment. I kinda assumed that's what you were aiming for (and it's a good point), but mostly I was amused by the thought of a paladin counting out options in his head, something snapping, and the paragon of rightousness fireballing the entire place indistriminately. Does this make me a bad person?
Morgen 01-30-07, 12:53 AM	Well let's look at a few things here. Lawful Good: While as strict in their prosecution of law and order, characters of lawful good alignment follow these precepts to improve the common weal. Certain freedoms must, of course, be sacrificed in order to bring order; but truth is of highest value, and life and beauty of great importance. The benefits of this society are to be brought to all. Well that's the good old description of it. How about in this new day and age? Lawful Good, “Crusader”: A lawful good character acts as a good person is expected or required to act. She combines a commitment to oppose evil with the discipline to fight relentlessly. She tells the truth, keeps her word, helps those in need, and speaks out against injustice. A lawful good character hates to see the guilty go unpunished. Alhandra, a paladin who fights evil without mercy and protects the innocent without hesitation, is lawful good. Lawful good is the best alignment you can be because it combines honor and compassion. From the sounds of both of these, so long as you are doing what is “good” and just you are acting in your alignment. Protecting Life, Truth and the Innocent. I hate Lawful Stupid.
LachlarlanIII 01-30-07, 10:07 AM	Lawful good people are confused, as are all the people in the corners of the alignment table. Essentially every action has to be weighed. Sometimes there will be a conflict between law and good. Actually this one seems fairly simple. Assuming that bribery is not part ofthe system, then the judge is both unlawful and wrong. Much harder is the "a slave is about to be killed for being too slow to get a meal ready and begs you for help". A lawful character hands them back to their owner, a good person tries to help them. A lawful good person sits there with brain feeeze ... Lawful Good = Believes in laws that help society as a whole. If the man is a willing slave doing pennance for his crimes, the LG character probably wouldn't have a problem. If the man is an unwilling slave, under the fist of an unjust system, the LG character would probably do everything in his power to get things changed. Lawful Neutral = Believes in laws that promote order and stability. Lawful Evil = Believes in laws that promote own good. If the law doesn't suit this character, he bends it till it does.
LGMoses 01-30-07, 02:22 PM	I kinda assumed that's what you were aiming for (and it's a good point), but mostly I was amused by the thought of a paladin counting out options in his head, something snapping, and the paragon of rightousness fireballing the entire place indistriminately. Does this make me a bad person? the answer is yes. :D paladin/wizard hmmmmm:lightbulb