AR Benefit or Curse ? [Archive] - Wizards Community

AR Benefit or Curse ? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Swiftbrook
07-26-06, 08:10 AM I played Secrets of Tsojcanth - Low-Level at GenCon 2005 and received the Touch of the Celestial benefit. Or was it a curse? One of my weapons was touched. The beneift states that for 1,000 gp the weapon will function as a good-aligned weapon. I'm debating getting this. Here's the problems:

1) Once I add "good-aligned" to the weapon, does it become a "non-standard" item and can no longer be upgraded according to the LGCS? This has HUGE implications.

2) If I add "good-aligned" to the weapon (currently it's a +2 weapon) then I want to upgrade it to "Sacred" or "Holy" in the future when I get the gold, how much will it cost? I think you should just pay the difference. +2 weapon is 9,000 gp, +3 is 18,000 gp, and a +4 is 32,000 gp. If I spend the 1,000 to add good-aligned, I think I should only need to spend 9,000 gp more to add "Sacred" or 22,000 gp more to add "Holy" since both include good-aligned. The other side is no, you pay 10,000 gp or 23,000 gp for the upgrade.

Your thoughts?

My guess is that I can't take the change that some table DM will rule that I can't upgrade a good-aligned weapon.

-Swiftbrook
Iswald
07-26-06, 11:14 AM I would guess that it works like putting the glamered special ability onto armor. It costs a fixed amount regardless of the armor and what's on it, and doesn't affect the cost of further enhancements.

I don't see why it would matter if your weapon is already good-aligned if you add holy later.
kenobi65
07-26-06, 11:26 AM 2) If I add "good-aligned" to the weapon (currently it's a +2 weapon) then I want to upgrade it to "Sacred" or "Holy" in the future when I get the gold, how much will it cost? I think you should just pay the difference. +2 weapon is 9,000 gp, +3 is 18,000 gp, and a +4 is 32,000 gp. If I spend the 1,000 to add good-aligned, I think I should only need to spend 9,000 gp more to add "Sacred" or 22,000 gp more to add "Holy" since both include good-aligned. The other side is no, you pay 10,000 gp or 23,000 gp for the upgrade.

I'm nobody special, but I'd hazard that "good-aligned" won't give you a later discount on buying the "holy" enhancement, unfortunately. If it were meant to do so, it'd be spelled out as such on the AR.

And, BTW, a +2 weapon enhancement is worth 8000gp, not 9000. The formula is: (bonus squared)*2000gp.
Swiftbrook
07-26-06, 01:16 PM I'm nobody special, but I'd hazard that "good-aligned" won't give you a later discount on buying the "holy" enhancement, unfortunately. If it were meant to do so, it'd be spelled out as such on the AR.

And, BTW, a +2 weapon enhancement is worth 8000gp, not 9000. The formula is: (bonus squared)*2000gp.

Correct. The 9,000 is figured as follows:

8,000 gp for +2 weapon
10,000 gp to upgrade to +3 version
Total of 18,000 gp

8,000 gp for +2 weapon
1,000 gp upgrade to good-aligned
total of 9,000 gp
18,000 - 9,000 = 9,000 gp to upgrade a +2 good-aligned weapon to Sacred
Again, that's IF it works that way.

-Swiftbrook
Swiftbrook
07-26-06, 01:21 PM I would guess that it works like putting the glamered special ability onto armor. It costs a fixed amount regardless of the armor and what's on it, and doesn't affect the cost of further enhancements.

I don't see why it would matter if your weapon is already good-aligned if you add holy later.

Glamered is a standard enhancement for armor. Therefor if you add it to your armor you can continue to enhance your armor with other benefits. "Good-Aligned" is not a standard enhancement (at least that I have been able to find). One could argue that adding the "Good-Aligned" enhancement makes the weapon non-standard and as such, by the LGCS, you can no longer enhance the weapon. You could not add Holy, Sacred, Fire, etc. It's done. Hence the problem.

-Swiftbrook
kenobi65
07-26-06, 01:22 PM Again, that's IF it works that way.

Well, as we're talking about a Core mod here, sounds like a question for Creighton, but I think that if it were meant to also act as a discount for Holy, it would say so.

As I read it, it sounds like, for a lot of characters, it'd be a good deal...spend just 1K to get a weapon that can permanently bypass DR/good, when the "normal" way to get something like that costs a minimum of 16,000gp (assuming placing Holy on a +1 weapon).
Swiftbrook
07-26-06, 01:29 PM As I read it, it sounds like, for a lot of characters, it'd be a good deal...spend just 1K to get a weapon that can permanently bypass DR/good, when the "normal" way to get something like that costs a minimum of 16,000gp (assuming placing Holy on a +1 weapon).

Minimum is actually 9,000 gp for placing Sacred on a +1 weapon. Read my previous reply (which I was typing while you were) to see my fear of the pitfalls of adding Good-Aligned.

-Swiftbrook
kenobi65
07-26-06, 01:40 PM Minimum is actually 9,000 gp for placing Sacred on a +1 weapon. Read my previous reply (which I was typing while you were) to see my fear of the pitfalls of adding Good-Aligned.

I'm not familiar with Sacred...what book does it come from? As Holy is from the DMG, I'd suspect it's the "good-aligned" enhancement that most players would be likely to get access to (though I may well be wrong).

If Sacred is only a "+1 bonus" in value, then it'd only cost 6K to place it on a +1 weapon.

In any case, you're right in that the bigger issue is whether the 1K "good-aligned" makes the weapon non-standard, and thus ineligible for further upgrades.

(Parenthetically, this favor fundamentally places the 2nd-level cleric spell Align Weapon permanently on the weapon in question...but, yes, that's a non-standard effect.)
Howie23
07-26-06, 01:58 PM I played Secrets of Tsojcanth - Low-Level at GenCon 2005 and received the Touch of the Celestial benefit. Or was it a curse? One of my weapons was touched. The beneift states that for 1,000 gp the weapon will function as a good-aligned weapon. I'm debating getting this. Here's the problems:

1) Once I add "good-aligned" to the weapon, does it become a "non-standard" item and can no longer be upgraded according to the LGCS? This has HUGE implications.

-Swiftbrook

That's my understanding, and is how I'm treating mine. For me, not a big deal...the bow was +1, and having a +1 bow that punches through DR/good at this price is a bargain.

A buddy played with me, and added celestial to his +1 shocking great axe. He's been kicking himself ever since because of the lack of upgrade path.

David
TimRat
07-26-06, 02:52 PM i can tell you that it does not count towards holy or anything like that. i can ask the person who wrote the low level (i wrote the high) if it turns into a nonstandard item. i'm assuming that you mean if you put it on a non +1 weapon already. b/c how i envisioned it you just buy it and slap the good aligned to the weapon and continued on your merry way while also being able to add anything to it. most thigns from the specials tend to be special but i'll get clarification from chris.
Swiftbrook
07-26-06, 04:04 PM i can tell you that it does not count towards holy or anything like that. i can ask the person who wrote the low level (i wrote the high) if it turns into a nonstandard item. i'm assuming that you mean if you put it on a non +1 weapon already. b/c how i envisioned it you just buy it and slap the good aligned to the weapon and continued on your merry way while also being able to add anything to it. most thigns from the specials tend to be special but i'll get clarification from chris.

Here's the rub:

A nonstandard item is a magic item that has an ability not normally present in the DMG description of the item and/or additional rules to it. ..... So for example, a cloak of resistance +2 that also gives a +10 to hide is a nonstandard item ....

So it follows that a +1 longsword that is also good-aligned is a nonstandard item. Hence the "benefit" on the AR turns into a curse because people don't see the trap.

-Swiftbrook
Arvagor
07-26-06, 07:15 PM Here's the rub:
[LGCS quote]
So it follows that a +1 longsword that is also good-aligned is a nonstandard item. Hence the "benefit" on the AR turns into a curse because people don't see the trap.The problem with interpreting that literally, is that you then cannot further modify/enchant a weapon once you put a non-DMG enhancement on it.

For example, I have access to the ghost strike enhancement from Libris Mortis; its price is as a +2 bonus. So if I have that added to my +1 shortsword (at a cost of 16000gp), by your interpretation of the LGCS, I cannot later put "flaming" or "frost" or "icy surge" (DMG2, +2000gp), etc. on the weapon. Which I think most of us would agree is an incorrect interpretation.

Granted there are no fixed price enhancements for weapons in the DMG, but we can look to armor as an example. Adding "slick" to a suit of armor costs 3750gp, but doesn't change the effective bonus of the armor. I would say that's what TimRat is saying, that the AR reward is just a fixed cost enhancement, and does not make the item "non-standard".

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Swiftbrook 07-26-06, 08:10 AM	I played Secrets of Tsojcanth - Low-Level at GenCon 2005 and received the Touch of the Celestial benefit. Or was it a curse? One of my weapons was touched. The beneift states that for 1,000 gp the weapon will function as a good-aligned weapon. I'm debating getting this. Here's the problems: 1) Once I add "good-aligned" to the weapon, does it become a "non-standard" item and can no longer be upgraded according to the LGCS? This has HUGE implications. 2) If I add "good-aligned" to the weapon (currently it's a +2 weapon) then I want to upgrade it to "Sacred" or "Holy" in the future when I get the gold, how much will it cost? I think you should just pay the difference. +2 weapon is 9,000 gp, +3 is 18,000 gp, and a +4 is 32,000 gp. If I spend the 1,000 to add good-aligned, I think I should only need to spend 9,000 gp more to add "Sacred" or 22,000 gp more to add "Holy" since both include good-aligned. The other side is no, you pay 10,000 gp or 23,000 gp for the upgrade. Your thoughts? My guess is that I can't take the change that some table DM will rule that I can't upgrade a good-aligned weapon. -Swiftbrook
Iswald 07-26-06, 11:14 AM	I would guess that it works like putting the glamered special ability onto armor. It costs a fixed amount regardless of the armor and what's on it, and doesn't affect the cost of further enhancements. I don't see why it would matter if your weapon is already good-aligned if you add holy later.
kenobi65 07-26-06, 11:26 AM	2) If I add "good-aligned" to the weapon (currently it's a +2 weapon) then I want to upgrade it to "Sacred" or "Holy" in the future when I get the gold, how much will it cost? I think you should just pay the difference. +2 weapon is 9,000 gp, +3 is 18,000 gp, and a +4 is 32,000 gp. If I spend the 1,000 to add good-aligned, I think I should only need to spend 9,000 gp more to add "Sacred" or 22,000 gp more to add "Holy" since both include good-aligned. The other side is no, you pay 10,000 gp or 23,000 gp for the upgrade. I'm nobody special, but I'd hazard that "good-aligned" won't give you a later discount on buying the "holy" enhancement, unfortunately. If it were meant to do so, it'd be spelled out as such on the AR. And, BTW, a +2 weapon enhancement is worth 8000gp, not 9000. The formula is: (bonus squared)*2000gp.
Swiftbrook 07-26-06, 01:16 PM	I'm nobody special, but I'd hazard that "good-aligned" won't give you a later discount on buying the "holy" enhancement, unfortunately. If it were meant to do so, it'd be spelled out as such on the AR. And, BTW, a +2 weapon enhancement is worth 8000gp, not 9000. The formula is: (bonus squared)*2000gp. Correct. The 9,000 is figured as follows: 8,000 gp for +2 weapon 10,000 gp to upgrade to +3 version Total of 18,000 gp 8,000 gp for +2 weapon 1,000 gp upgrade to good-aligned total of 9,000 gp 18,000 - 9,000 = 9,000 gp to upgrade a +2 good-aligned weapon to Sacred Again, that's IF it works that way. -Swiftbrook
Swiftbrook 07-26-06, 01:21 PM	I would guess that it works like putting the glamered special ability onto armor. It costs a fixed amount regardless of the armor and what's on it, and doesn't affect the cost of further enhancements. I don't see why it would matter if your weapon is already good-aligned if you add holy later. Glamered is a standard enhancement for armor. Therefor if you add it to your armor you can continue to enhance your armor with other benefits. "Good-Aligned" is not a standard enhancement (at least that I have been able to find). One could argue that adding the "Good-Aligned" enhancement makes the weapon non-standard and as such, by the LGCS, you can no longer enhance the weapon. You could not add Holy, Sacred, Fire, etc. It's done. Hence the problem. -Swiftbrook
kenobi65 07-26-06, 01:22 PM	Again, that's IF it works that way. Well, as we're talking about a Core mod here, sounds like a question for Creighton, but I think that if it were meant to also act as a discount for Holy, it would say so. As I read it, it sounds like, for a lot of characters, it'd be a good deal...spend just 1K to get a weapon that can permanently bypass DR/good, when the "normal" way to get something like that costs a minimum of 16,000gp (assuming placing Holy on a +1 weapon).
Swiftbrook 07-26-06, 01:29 PM	As I read it, it sounds like, for a lot of characters, it'd be a good deal...spend just 1K to get a weapon that can permanently bypass DR/good, when the "normal" way to get something like that costs a minimum of 16,000gp (assuming placing Holy on a +1 weapon). Minimum is actually 9,000 gp for placing Sacred on a +1 weapon. Read my previous reply (which I was typing while you were) to see my fear of the pitfalls of adding Good-Aligned. -Swiftbrook
kenobi65 07-26-06, 01:40 PM	Minimum is actually 9,000 gp for placing Sacred on a +1 weapon. Read my previous reply (which I was typing while you were) to see my fear of the pitfalls of adding Good-Aligned. I'm not familiar with Sacred...what book does it come from? As Holy is from the DMG, I'd suspect it's the "good-aligned" enhancement that most players would be likely to get access to (though I may well be wrong). If Sacred is only a "+1 bonus" in value, then it'd only cost 6K to place it on a +1 weapon. In any case, you're right in that the bigger issue is whether the 1K "good-aligned" makes the weapon non-standard, and thus ineligible for further upgrades. (Parenthetically, this favor fundamentally places the 2nd-level cleric spell Align Weapon permanently on the weapon in question...but, yes, that's a non-standard effect.)
Howie23 07-26-06, 01:58 PM	I played Secrets of Tsojcanth - Low-Level at GenCon 2005 and received the Touch of the Celestial benefit. Or was it a curse? One of my weapons was touched. The beneift states that for 1,000 gp the weapon will function as a good-aligned weapon. I'm debating getting this. Here's the problems: 1) Once I add "good-aligned" to the weapon, does it become a "non-standard" item and can no longer be upgraded according to the LGCS? This has HUGE implications. -Swiftbrook That's my understanding, and is how I'm treating mine. For me, not a big deal...the bow was +1, and having a +1 bow that punches through DR/good at this price is a bargain. A buddy played with me, and added celestial to his +1 shocking great axe. He's been kicking himself ever since because of the lack of upgrade path. David
TimRat 07-26-06, 02:52 PM	i can tell you that it does not count towards holy or anything like that. i can ask the person who wrote the low level (i wrote the high) if it turns into a nonstandard item. i'm assuming that you mean if you put it on a non +1 weapon already. b/c how i envisioned it you just buy it and slap the good aligned to the weapon and continued on your merry way while also being able to add anything to it. most thigns from the specials tend to be special but i'll get clarification from chris.
Swiftbrook 07-26-06, 04:04 PM	i can tell you that it does not count towards holy or anything like that. i can ask the person who wrote the low level (i wrote the high) if it turns into a nonstandard item. i'm assuming that you mean if you put it on a non +1 weapon already. b/c how i envisioned it you just buy it and slap the good aligned to the weapon and continued on your merry way while also being able to add anything to it. most thigns from the specials tend to be special but i'll get clarification from chris. Here's the rub: A nonstandard item is a magic item that has an ability not normally present in the DMG description of the item and/or additional rules to it. ..... So for example, a cloak of resistance +2 that also gives a +10 to hide is a nonstandard item .... So it follows that a +1 longsword that is also good-aligned is a nonstandard item. Hence the "benefit" on the AR turns into a curse because people don't see the trap. -Swiftbrook
Arvagor 07-26-06, 07:15 PM	Here's the rub: [LGCS quote] So it follows that a +1 longsword that is also good-aligned is a nonstandard item. Hence the "benefit" on the AR turns into a curse because people don't see the trap.The problem with interpreting that literally, is that you then cannot further modify/enchant a weapon once you put a non-DMG enhancement on it. For example, I have access to the ghost strike enhancement from Libris Mortis; its price is as a +2 bonus. So if I have that added to my +1 shortsword (at a cost of 16000gp), by your interpretation of the LGCS, I cannot later put "flaming" or "frost" or "icy surge" (DMG2, +2000gp), etc. on the weapon. Which I think most of us would agree is an incorrect interpretation. Granted there are no fixed price enhancements for weapons in the DMG, but we can look to armor as an example. Adding "slick" to a suit of armor costs 3750gp, but doesn't change the effective bonus of the armor. I would say that's what TimRat is saying, that the AR reward is just a fixed cost enhancement, and does not make the item "non-standard".