Arcane Trickster [Archive] - Wizards Community

Arcane Trickster [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Scarbrow
03-07-06, 07:13 AM In the DMG, the PrC Arcane Trickster says that a character must be able to cast Mage Hand to take the class. I play a warmage and I want to eventually roll into the Arcane Trickster PrC. Obviously warmages don't have mage hand but I was wondereing if the feat 'Spell Hand' would fulfill the requirements? If so, the build will be warmage8/rogue3/arcane trickster4.

Assuming this is a valid build, does it sound like an effective one?
Lomiat
03-07-06, 09:40 AM I don't have any books on me, but I expect "Spell Hand" is the feat that grants you Mage Hand as a spell-like ability once or so per day. If so, I figure that would let you take the PRC, though I'm no Circle member to make an official ruling. Still, I can't see how it wouldn't qualify you.

Meanwhile, I expect you want the spontaneous casting and the intelligence bonus to damage. You'll toss a lot of orbs, except you won't get your sneak attack damage, so in the long run, you'll do less damage than a straight warmage and less damage than a normal trickster. The trickster's main deal is casting spells while invisible or blinking, thereby getting free sneak attack damage. Warmage takes away the spells that would let you catch your foes flat-footed. Then, to get your sneak attack, you rely upon the once or twice per day ability of the trickster, or upon entering melee and flanking. Typically, melee isn't a good spot for a trickster.

Finally, you lose out on skill points, the main place a trickster excels. Tricksters are typically played as more rogue-like than rogues. Their ability to find traps while invisible and to scout ahead while telepathically bonded to one or more party members makes them uber-rogues. Versatility is the trickster's main friend. Effectively, you'll take a class designed for versatility and try to mutate it into a damage-dealing class, and it won't work as well for either.

But you'll get to wear armor, and armor's cool.
Scarbrow
03-07-06, 10:10 AM Maybe I have misunderstood how sneak attack works. I thought sneak attack can be used anytime a target is denied their Dex bonus. Evard's black tenticles accomplishes this as well as a couple of effects from the orbs. Also, I won't lose too much spell power because of the practiced spell-caster feat. Regarding sneak attacks, don't range touch spells qualify if cast within 30 feet? As a warmage I have a good selection of targeting spells. Lastly, you mentioned skills as a drawback to this combination; with an intelligence of 20 I would reap many skill points from the rogue and arcane trickster classes. I already have the well read feat which allows me many knowledge skills (very useful in LG). In any event, thanks for the comments.
Mortepierre
03-07-06, 11:27 AM I am not so sure Spell Hand will allow him to qualify. The prerequisite states "ability to cast Mage Hand". Spell Hand gives you the innate ability to use that spell once per day, not cast it. I dimly remember seeing a similar debate not so long ago on one of the yahoo boards but can't remember which one at the moment :thinks:
Namarus
03-07-06, 01:46 PM Yes, you would get your sneak attack within 30ft. If your making an attack roll you get the sneak damage, if your enemy is denied their dexterity.

You might want to also look up the Arcane Disciple feat, you can then use this feat to get access to invisibility via the Trickery Domain, or pick up a lot of other utility spells using this feat.

You would have to check with your local Triad to see if Spell Hand can be used to qualify, personally I would say yes, but it's always worthwhile checking.
Fwib
03-07-06, 01:53 PM Complete Arcane, page 72: Specific Spell Requirements
Spell Hand will get you into Arcane Trickster
Lomiat
03-07-06, 04:01 PM Maybe I have misunderstood how sneak attack works. I thought sneak attack can be used anytime a target is denied their Dex bonus. Evard's black tenticles accomplishes this as well as a couple of effects from the orbs. Also, I won't lose too much spell power because of the practiced spell-caster feat. Regarding sneak attacks, don't range touch spells qualify if cast within 30 feet? As a warmage I have a good selection of targeting spells. Lastly, you mentioned skills as a drawback to this combination; with an intelligence of 20 I would reap many skill points from the rogue and arcane trickster classes. I already have the well read feat which allows me many knowledge skills (very useful in LG). In any event, thanks for the comments.

Targets are, indeed, denied their DEX while grappled, but that means: A) you have to succeed to grapple with Evard's, B) you have to take an action to cast Evard's rather than attack, C) you have to wait to get Sneak Attack with your orbs until AFTER you can cast Evard's, and D) your DM rules that the standard 50% miss (or mistargetting) for firing ranged attacks into a grapple doesn't affect you.

The point about skills is that you wait an additional 3 levels before getting Arcane Trickster skills (instead of taking your first level of AT at 9th like most Rog/Wiz combos). That means you lose 6 skill points and have that much longer to wait before you can start pumping points back into the Rogue skills: Search, Disable Device, Open Lock, etc.

Furthermore, you have fewer points to spend on Use Magic Device (if you wanted to use a wand or scroll of Gravestrike -- if you came across access) and you lose access to Golem Strike (or whatever the spell is called that lets you sneak attack a golem). Plus you have to burn a feat to get Spell Hand.

However, if you choose to go your route, you'll probably want to invest in Improved Initiative fairly early, so that you'll get some sneak attacks against flat-footed foes.
Scarbrow
03-07-06, 10:07 PM I will mention that I have access to an item that provides invisibility for 5 minutes a day at will. That means I could sneak attack a target and then turn invisible again as a free action. That might give me the additional opportunities for sneak attacks that I need.

In regards to golems, I'll just have to use regular warmage damage on them.
Mortepierre
03-08-06, 03:50 AM Complete Arcane, page 72: Specific Spell Requirements
Spell Hand will get you into Arcane Trickster

Nice catch, I had missed that paragraph
Sieylianna
03-08-06, 07:33 AM I will mention that I have access to an item that provides invisibility for 5 minutes a day at will. That means I could sneak attack a target and then turn invisible again as a free action. That might give me the additional opportunities for sneak attacks that I need.

Does it specifically say it's a free action? A ring of invisibility lets you turn invisble at will, but it's still a standard action to activate it.

Ed
Scarbrow
03-08-06, 08:33 AM You are correct Sieylianna. The item does not say it is activated as a free action. It says that both of its powers can be activated simultaneously by using command words.
Lomiat
03-08-06, 09:49 AM Lesser Coautl Cloak, right? Command words are standard actions. Invisibility is good no matter what, though, but it means you'll only get the sneak the 1st round and every other round.

Can your warmage go into melee? Longspear with sonic weapon and flame blade or something?
Scarbrow
03-08-06, 11:12 AM Yes, it is the lesser Coatl Cloak.

I don't both with melee since my strength is so pathetic. As a Gray Elf with no points in Strength, I have a 6. I have a poor chance to hit in Melee and without using spells to enhance the damage I would not do much.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Scarbrow 03-07-06, 07:13 AM	In the DMG, the PrC Arcane Trickster says that a character must be able to cast Mage Hand to take the class. I play a warmage and I want to eventually roll into the Arcane Trickster PrC. Obviously warmages don't have mage hand but I was wondereing if the feat 'Spell Hand' would fulfill the requirements? If so, the build will be warmage8/rogue3/arcane trickster4. Assuming this is a valid build, does it sound like an effective one?
Lomiat 03-07-06, 09:40 AM	I don't have any books on me, but I expect "Spell Hand" is the feat that grants you Mage Hand as a spell-like ability once or so per day. If so, I figure that would let you take the PRC, though I'm no Circle member to make an official ruling. Still, I can't see how it wouldn't qualify you. Meanwhile, I expect you want the spontaneous casting and the intelligence bonus to damage. You'll toss a lot of orbs, except you won't get your sneak attack damage, so in the long run, you'll do less damage than a straight warmage and less damage than a normal trickster. The trickster's main deal is casting spells while invisible or blinking, thereby getting free sneak attack damage. Warmage takes away the spells that would let you catch your foes flat-footed. Then, to get your sneak attack, you rely upon the once or twice per day ability of the trickster, or upon entering melee and flanking. Typically, melee isn't a good spot for a trickster. Finally, you lose out on skill points, the main place a trickster excels. Tricksters are typically played as more rogue-like than rogues. Their ability to find traps while invisible and to scout ahead while telepathically bonded to one or more party members makes them uber-rogues. Versatility is the trickster's main friend. Effectively, you'll take a class designed for versatility and try to mutate it into a damage-dealing class, and it won't work as well for either. But you'll get to wear armor, and armor's cool.
Scarbrow 03-07-06, 10:10 AM	Maybe I have misunderstood how sneak attack works. I thought sneak attack can be used anytime a target is denied their Dex bonus. Evard's black tenticles accomplishes this as well as a couple of effects from the orbs. Also, I won't lose too much spell power because of the practiced spell-caster feat. Regarding sneak attacks, don't range touch spells qualify if cast within 30 feet? As a warmage I have a good selection of targeting spells. Lastly, you mentioned skills as a drawback to this combination; with an intelligence of 20 I would reap many skill points from the rogue and arcane trickster classes. I already have the well read feat which allows me many knowledge skills (very useful in LG). In any event, thanks for the comments.
Mortepierre 03-07-06, 11:27 AM	I am not so sure Spell Hand will allow him to qualify. The prerequisite states "ability to cast Mage Hand". Spell Hand gives you the innate ability to use that spell once per day, not cast it. I dimly remember seeing a similar debate not so long ago on one of the yahoo boards but can't remember which one at the moment :thinks:
Namarus 03-07-06, 01:46 PM	Yes, you would get your sneak attack within 30ft. If your making an attack roll you get the sneak damage, if your enemy is denied their dexterity. You might want to also look up the Arcane Disciple feat, you can then use this feat to get access to invisibility via the Trickery Domain, or pick up a lot of other utility spells using this feat. You would have to check with your local Triad to see if Spell Hand can be used to qualify, personally I would say yes, but it's always worthwhile checking.
Fwib 03-07-06, 01:53 PM	Complete Arcane, page 72: Specific Spell Requirements Spell Hand will get you into Arcane Trickster
Lomiat 03-07-06, 04:01 PM	Maybe I have misunderstood how sneak attack works. I thought sneak attack can be used anytime a target is denied their Dex bonus. Evard's black tenticles accomplishes this as well as a couple of effects from the orbs. Also, I won't lose too much spell power because of the practiced spell-caster feat. Regarding sneak attacks, don't range touch spells qualify if cast within 30 feet? As a warmage I have a good selection of targeting spells. Lastly, you mentioned skills as a drawback to this combination; with an intelligence of 20 I would reap many skill points from the rogue and arcane trickster classes. I already have the well read feat which allows me many knowledge skills (very useful in LG). In any event, thanks for the comments. Targets are, indeed, denied their DEX while grappled, but that means: A) you have to succeed to grapple with Evard's, B) you have to take an action to cast Evard's rather than attack, C) you have to wait to get Sneak Attack with your orbs until AFTER you can cast Evard's, and D) your DM rules that the standard 50% miss (or mistargetting) for firing ranged attacks into a grapple doesn't affect you. The point about skills is that you wait an additional 3 levels before getting Arcane Trickster skills (instead of taking your first level of AT at 9th like most Rog/Wiz combos). That means you lose 6 skill points and have that much longer to wait before you can start pumping points back into the Rogue skills: Search, Disable Device, Open Lock, etc. Furthermore, you have fewer points to spend on Use Magic Device (if you wanted to use a wand or scroll of Gravestrike -- if you came across access) and you lose access to Golem Strike (or whatever the spell is called that lets you sneak attack a golem). Plus you have to burn a feat to get Spell Hand. However, if you choose to go your route, you'll probably want to invest in Improved Initiative fairly early, so that you'll get some sneak attacks against flat-footed foes.
Scarbrow 03-07-06, 10:07 PM	I will mention that I have access to an item that provides invisibility for 5 minutes a day at will. That means I could sneak attack a target and then turn invisible again as a free action. That might give me the additional opportunities for sneak attacks that I need. In regards to golems, I'll just have to use regular warmage damage on them.
Mortepierre 03-08-06, 03:50 AM	Complete Arcane, page 72: Specific Spell Requirements Spell Hand will get you into Arcane Trickster Nice catch, I had missed that paragraph
Sieylianna 03-08-06, 07:33 AM	I will mention that I have access to an item that provides invisibility for 5 minutes a day at will. That means I could sneak attack a target and then turn invisible again as a free action. That might give me the additional opportunities for sneak attacks that I need. Does it specifically say it's a free action? A ring of invisibility lets you turn invisble at will, but it's still a standard action to activate it. Ed
Scarbrow 03-08-06, 08:33 AM	You are correct Sieylianna. The item does not say it is activated as a free action. It says that both of its powers can be activated simultaneously by using command words.
Lomiat 03-08-06, 09:49 AM	Lesser Coautl Cloak, right? Command words are standard actions. Invisibility is good no matter what, though, but it means you'll only get the sneak the 1st round and every other round. Can your warmage go into melee? Longspear with sonic weapon and flame blade or something?
Scarbrow 03-08-06, 11:12 AM	Yes, it is the lesser Coatl Cloak. I don't both with melee since my strength is so pathetic. As a Gray Elf with no points in Strength, I have a 6. I have a poor chance to hit in Melee and without using spells to enhance the damage I would not do much.