Post/Author/DateTime	Post
honeynuggets 02-26-04, 04:55 PM	Should MetaOrgs be using the official PrC as a guide or should MetaOrgs be warped to serve whoever managed to squeeze it through whatever committee oversees them? The Windrider PrC. What do you see when you look at it? Here's what I see. "Rangers, Paladins, Fighters, Barbarians all make excellent Windriders because they can easily accumulate the prerequisites." MoTW Prerequisites: BAB +5 Handle Animal 8 ranks Knowledge Nature 6 ranks Ride 8 ranks Mounted Combat Hit Dice: d10 Skill Points per level: 2+ INT BAB progession: +1 each level Spells per day: Not +1 spellcaster level in existing class. Spell progression similar to ranger/paladin weakened casting. Now, what I see is a PrC designed to be taken by 5th level Rangers, Paladins, Fighters, Barbarians. Why is it then that I am looking at a MetaOrg (one of the few in my region) which gives access to the Windrider PrC, but is set up only for Druids? Specifically, the MetaOrg requires that the character be able to cast Summon Nature's Ally 3 !! before they gain access to the Windrider PrC. This means that Paladins, Fighters, and Barbarians whom the MoTW specifically states "make excellent Windriders" cannot in fact become Windriders at all without taking so many multiclass levels that they can't even be called Ftr/Pal/Brb anymore. Even Rangers would have to wait until 11th level !!! to take a PrC which they were meant to be able to take at 5th level according to this Metaorg. I am all for nerfing munckins but it should be done fairly across the board. If the powers that be don't want to let CL 5 Rangers/Paladins/Fighters/Barbarians get access to the Windrider then they should just delete the whole MetaOrg. Letting a class that is less suited to a PrC gain access when other more suited classes can't get it is a terrible house rule. I would rather have no PrCs at all rather than a handful of warped PrCs that blatantly defy the official WoTC versions. I have written to the people behind this particular metaorg and even sent them a completely formatted and revised pdf allowing non-druids (ex Rangers who originally were meant to be the main petitioners) access to this PrC. It's been 3 weeks and I have received no response. It only took me 2 hours to make the document so taking 10 minutes to approve it or reject it with some explanation is not too much to ask. People review character builds in 5 minutes on these boards every day which are just as complex. I suggest that officials either keep PrC entry requirements in-line with the official source books or just delete them. Yes, I have toned this down after letting off a bit too much steam. I just don't like feeling like people are playing by their own houserules in a public campaign.
WCrawford 02-26-04, 05:54 PM	I would advise taking the document you wrote and submit it to your triad, rather than the meta-org coordinator. Triads have the final say of what is and is not allowed in their regions meta-orgs. Now, saying that, it is quite possible that the meta-org you are looking at is more appropriate for Druids and just happens to allow access to the PrC you are interested in. If that is the case, you could approach your Triad with a new meta-org that also offers the Windrider PrC. An Aerial Corps of the region's military is a good example. Talk to your Triad and see if you can find a soulution that meets your needs and the needs of your region.
Sieylianna 02-26-04, 06:09 PM	The meta-orgs are in the process of being completely redone which is probably why you haven't heard anything. I don't know whether Windriders in your area were defined by a player to suit his PC or if there is a precedent in Greyhawk canon for druid type windriders in your region. Your triad is free to make adjustments they deem appropriate to adaptable prestige classes, there is no obligation to make something work just like it's in a sourcebook. If you can't accept that, LG is not the campaign for you. However, Paladins, Fighters and Barbarians do not have knowledge nature as a class skill, so the earliest a straight classed one could start taking Windrider levels is 10th. Ed
honeynuggets 02-26-04, 06:36 PM	Your triad is free to make adjustments they deem appropriate to adaptable prestige classes, there is no obligation to make something work just like it's in a sourcebook. If you can't accept that, LG is not the campaign for you. How... dictator-like. However, Paladins, Fighters and Barbarians do not have knowledge nature as a class skill, so the earliest a straight classed one could start taking Windrider levels is 10th. Yes, these three classes would have to take a level in Ranger or Druid to meet the prerequisites in MoTW. Here's are some sample builds just to illustrate that the Windrider is more suited to these melee types Rng / Ftr / Pal / Brb than the Druid. Rng 5 > Windrider (fails to meet metaorg requirements) Rng 1 / Ftr 4 > Windrider (fails to meet metaorg requirements) Rng 1 / Pal 4 > Windrider (fails to meet metaorg requirements) Rng 1 / Brb 4 > Windrider (fails to meet metaorg requirements) Druid 7 > Windrider Rng 2 / Dru 4 > Windrider (fails to meet metaorg requirements)
RLWilde 02-26-04, 07:24 PM	But, again, it comes down to whether the metaorg was written in order to provide access to that Prestige Class, or if it was written for other reasons and happened to have the Prestige Class added to it. Without any information regarding the metaorg, we can't really make any comment on it. Put another way, if the metaorg did NOT have the Prestige Class in it, would you still be interested in having your Ranger join? A better solution might be to write up a proposal for a new metaorg for your region, as suggested by WCrawford. From what I've seen so far on this thread, nobody has "warped" a Prestige Class (as the accusation at the beginning asserted). And as far as being "dictator-like", that's true to the same extent as a home campaign DM making rules for his campaign.
Steve_MND 02-26-04, 07:53 PM	"Should MetaOrgs be using the official PrC as a guide or should MetaOrgs be warped to serve whoever managed to squeeze it through whatever committee oversees them?" Okay; first off, it's pretty clear by this introduction that you already have made up your mind on the subject, and have an axe to grind. "How... dictator-like." No, it just means that you are missing or ignoring the key element of what makes the Living Greyhawk campaign the way it is: the regional system. The entire concept of the LG campaign is based on the idea that individual regions have the ability to adjust and develop individual regions to a large degree, taking 'generic' elements from the various books and fine-tuning them to the particular region and it's history, sentiments and resources. Regardless, in the example you gave, the region isn't changing the prerequisites at all. What they are doing is restricting the access, not the prerequisites. Nothing outside of the Player's Handbook is guaranteed to be available in the campaign at all: anything additional is a bonus, not a right. If a region feels that a particular adaptable Prestige Class is inappropriate to the region, or not very widespread, they are fully within their rights to say it's not available, or set additional restrictions on finding access to it. However, the prerequisites are not changed: if you get access to it from some other region, or through a module, or whatever, then fine, you can have it. They can't say that an otherwise legal feature is unusable in their region. But they can say it's not something that available there. A region is not required to give you whatever you want any more than the DM in a home campaign is. Personally, my suggestion is that if a Prestige Class or the like is not available in your region, instead of complaining about it, see if you can't work with the Triad to introduce it somehow. For example, in my region, there is no organized church for Wee Jas (since death magic is frowned on, and public sympathy for the Jasidens is minimal at best). So what did the players of Wee Jas worshippers do? Well, they could have whined about lack of access, but instead, they decided to work with the Triad to develop a church in the region, so that they could have the same sort of access as those followers of the more accepted religions. It's not coming along easily, or quickly, but changing the in-character attitudes of a region should not come quick and easy. Unfortunately, some people tend to whine if they can't have everything they want, and as a result, I fear the Circle is leaning more and more towards a 'lowest common denominator' approach -- i.e., since a couple of regions can't get their act together enough to provide reasonable opportunities, they feel that the best course of action may be to restrict the regions doing things properly as opposed to providing means to enhance those regions that aren't. I am concerned that something similar will be happening to metagroups. Those regions that have thriving metagroups, with flavor, access and involved activity in the makeup of the region, will probably be forced to cut back so that they are more in line with the regions that aren't addressing the issue properly, just so people can't whine about how Region X provides more access than Region Y. I hope that won't be the case, but I'm not holding my breath. And what will be the end result of this, if it goes through? Well, if regions are limited to a certain finite number of metagroups, that means their options are limited. And that means that not only might your Windrider Prestige Class not be available in your region, perhaps a lot of other features you want also will not be, because the Triad only has a small number of metagroups they can work with, and they can only spread things out so far. I'm merely speculating, but I have never seen the 'lowest common denominator' actually help a situation. I hope I'm wrong about what might be coming down the pike. Steve M
honeynuggets 02-26-04, 09:21 PM	taking 'generic' elements from the various books and fine-tuning them to the particular region and it's history, sentiments and resources. I thought of this possibility and read the LG Gazetteer and any older references to the region. I found no mention of Druids or even Rangers for that matter. This actually supports the idea of deleting the metaorg altogether which, while not benefitting me, would at least restore some sanity to this. I say sanity because the example I gave really is similar to saying: "Ok, here is the new MetaOrg called Blue Legion. It grants access to the Mage of the Arcane Order PrC. In order to meet the preequisites of the metaorg you need to have a BAB +11 on top of any PrC prerequisites. The blue legion is a group of fighters who decided to become wizards. Knock yourselves out." Surely I jest? No. Different HD, spell progression, minimum entry point, added prerequisite not in the original PrC, etc. Regardless, in the example you gave, the region isn't changing the prerequisites at all. What they are doing is restricting the access, not the prerequisites. If you put a prerequisite in a MetaOrg and the only way to get the PrC is to be in the MetaOrg then effectively you have added a new prerequisite to the PrC. Personally, my suggestion is that if a Prestige Class or the like is not available in your region, instead of complaining about it, see if you can't work with the Triad to introduce it somehow. I sent a very fair and balanced proposal to allow Rangers and Druids to share that MetaOrg thinking it would be simpler than just making another one for the same PrC. I can upload it if you are interested in seeing it. I don't know why 3 weeks have gone by with no change (when it only takes 10 minutes to review) so now I am complaining. they decided to work with the Triad to develop a church in the region, so that they could have the same sort of access as those followers of the more accepted religions. It's not coming along easily, or quickly, but changing the in-character attitudes of a region should not come quick and easy. Well, if your region has no official history of Wee Jas followers then you are not really fine tuning so much as you are adding something new to a region. I don't know about adding new stuff to history without some previous reference. In my case there also seems to be no official history of Windriders so this metaorg probably shouldn't exist at all. If it does exist though it shouldn't laugh in the face of official rules and only accept awkward classes. Region X should definately not have more PrCs than region Y. Installing that balance will help create parity and that's good. It's easy for a small group of power hungry leaders to tell their regional players to stuff it, but it's not so easy for them to tell another group of power hungry leaders to stuff it. Kind of like when banks compete to give loans. You seem to think that the leaders favoring fewer MetaOrgs/PrCs will win if there is a disagreement. I think they would compromise. Well, if regions are limited to a certain finite number of metagroups, that means their options are limited. And that means that not only might your Windrider Prestige Class not be available in your region, perhaps a lot of other features you want also will not be, because the Triad only has a small number of metagroups they can work with, and they can only spread things out so far. If they decide that each region can only have say 5 metagroups and then let the leaders of that region decide what they are then yes, that might lead to unfair selection. This is kind of a different point from mine. I'm saying that the metaorg itself is whack. Someone who doesn't have anything to gain or lose might have to read the gazzeteer and decide which PrCs fit with which region.
RLWilde 02-26-04, 10:04 PM	Originally posted by honeynuggets "Ok, here is the new MetaOrg called Blue Legion. It grants access to the Mage of the Arcane Order PrC. In order to meet the preequisites of the metaorg you need to have a BAB +11 on top of any PrC prerequisites. The blue legion is a group of fighters who decided to become wizards. Knock yourselves out." Okay, now I really have to ask... what region and metaorg are you specifically complaining about? Surely I jest? No. Different HD, spell progression, minimum entry point, added prerequisite not in the original PrC, etc. If you put a prerequisite in a MetaOrg and the only way to get the PrC is to be in the MetaOrg then effectively you have added a new prerequisite to the PrC. Again, that is for the metaorg, not the Prestige Class. There is no rule in LG saying that a Prestige Class may only have one route of access. Your "if" statement fails unless you can show that the only way to access the class is through this metaorg. I will agree, though, that the campaign has added additional prerequisites to some Prestige Classes. That prerequisite is to gain access through additional documentation. I sent a very fair and balanced proposal to allow Rangers and Druids to share that MetaOrg thinking it would be simpler than just making another one for the same PrC. I can upload it if you are interested in seeing it. I get the feeling that it was deleted due to whatever bureaucracy is in effect so now I am complaining. Many people, myself included, feel that metaorgs should be about more than just a checklist of costs and benefits. Perhaps they felt that your proposed changes altered the flavor of the metaorg? It's easy for a small group of power hungry leaders to tell their regional players to stuff it, but it's not so easy for them to tell another group of power hungry leaders to stuff it. If that's what you feel is happening, I strongly urge you to contact the Circle rep for your metaregion with what documentation you have to support this. if they decide that each region can only have say 5 metagroups and then let the leaders of that region decide what they are then yes, that would be dangerous because they might just pick metaorgs that their group uses regardless of how it fits into the flavor of the region. This is kind of a different point from mine. I'm saying that the metaorg itself is whack. And that metaorg is...?
honeynuggets 02-26-04, 10:41 PM	Okay, now I really have to ask... what region and metaorg are you specifically complaining about? I don't feel that's necessary since I have provided the specific metaorg prerequisite which is causing the exclusion of better suited classes. In the case of a pure Ranger he/she is kept out until 11th level. I could name names but I don't see it helping since the people I have written to...I'm pretty sure are the region's Triad, one of whom is assigned the task of looking over metaorgs. Your "if" statement fails unless you can show that the only way to access the class is through this metaorg. The Windrider is an adaptable PrC and they require either metaorgs or specific adventure documentation if I'm not mistaken. Therefore, the metaorg is practically the only way to access the class. Many people, myself included, feel that metaorgs should be about more than just a checklist of costs and benefits. Perhaps they felt that your proposed changes altered the flavor of the metaorg? Check it out for yourself. I have tried to make it anonymous by changing the names. You will see that the Ranger path parallels the Druid path in requirements and benefits. The additions I made are all the references to Rangers. Also, since I just whipped this version it isn't as neat and formatted as the "ready to download" version I sent the triad. http://members.cox.net/shinyhalo/crazytime.pdf
honeynuggets 02-26-04, 11:21 PM	I think I found the LG Gazeteer reference that the metaorg is based on. It is in the text of a different region. Basically, this region has a Druid order. The creator of the metaorg seems to have suggested that some Druids split off of this documented order and moved to my region. Again, this is just supposition. The creators of the metaorg may have other references I am unaware of. I actually think the history part fits in fine but I could find no mention of flying mounts or giant birds so I feel that the meta-org should have granted access to a more Druid-appropriate prestige class with +1 spellcaster level progession rather than hijacking a Ranger/Paladin/Fighter/Barbarian prestige class. On the other hand, I found a reference to rangers that I could use to whip up a whole separate meta-org...it's not hard at all. I don't know what the mentality of people making the decisions is for sure though but I hope it's not: "Oh my god! This makes the 100th PrC I've gotten in the email this week!"
Steve_MND 02-27-04, 12:53 AM	I thought of this possibility and read the LG Gazetteer and any older references to the region. I found no mention of Druids or even Rangers for that matter. C'mon, think about that for a minute. For most regions in LG, there's nowhere near enough information on the area to sustain a campaign for 5+ years and a couple hundred people, even if you include all canon sources. In every region, there's going to be a lot of material that is added over time by the Triad, module authors, Circle, etc. to develop it to the point where it can sustain an involved storyline. Besides, if you just only with what was already explicitly written about the regions, virtually nothing outside of the Core books would ever be used, since the LGG (and all previous) were written well before any of the other books we are currently using. If you put a prerequisite in a MetaOrg and the only way to get the PrC is to be in the MetaOrg then effectively you have added a new prerequisite to the PrC. Not so. Prerequisites are a game mechanic. Access, on the other hand, is an LG-specific rule. To use _anything_ in LG, you need some sort of campaign documentation allowing access to it. It may sound like mere semantics, but it's not. There are many other ways a character might be able to gain access to that Prestige Class -- a reward from a module, a special mission, joining a metagroup from another region, petitioning the Triad to create a new metagroup that allows it, adding it to an existing one, etc. It may be true that a particular campaign feature may be difficult (very difficult!) to obtain in some regions, but each region will have it's own strengths and weaknesses, and that access is indicative of those qualities. I sent a very fair and balanced proposal to allow Rangers and Druids to share that MetaOrg thinking it would be simpler than just making another one for the same PrC. I can upload it if you are interested in seeing it. I don't know why 3 weeks have gone by with no change (when it only takes 10 minutes to review) so now I am complaining. Fair enough, but then your complaint should be not over the fact that access is restricted in your region, but that the people you contacted are unresponsive (which is a problem in it's own right, and an unfortunate one). Well, if your region has no official history of Wee Jas followers then you are not really fine tuning so much as you are adding something new to a region. I don't know about adding new stuff to history without some previous reference. It's not adding to the history of the region, it's adding to the cuirrent events of the region. A Living campaign, but it's very design, is supposed to develop, evolve and grow with the actions of the characters. In my case there also seems to be no official history of Windriders so this metaorg probably shouldn't exist at all. Windriders of any sort didn't "exist" in Greyhawk before the printing of MotW. As I mentioned previously, if you restrict yourself to just those things explicitly mentioned in canon, you're not going to be able to develop or sustain a region. You seem to think that the leaders favoring fewer MetaOrgs/PrCs will win if there is a disagreement. On the contrary; I think everyone (across the board) will lose. IMHO, the Circle should be setting things up (and the Triads in turn) so that they have the ability to provide as much appropriate content to the players as they want (and I'm not talking about just crunchy bits here, but also RP quality, interactives, regional flavor, etc.), and not restricting those that have the capabilities to offer more. If they decide that each region can only have say 5 metagroups and then let the leaders of that region decide what they are then yes, that might lead to unfair selection. This is kind of a different point from mine. Yeah, I did kind of wander off-track there. It's a touchy subject with me; sorry. And while I don't think it will be 'only 5 metagroups,' I think it may well be much closer to that than you might think, based on rumors overheard (time for Dave C. to arrive with his obligatory "you shouldn't listen to rumors" speech :) -- yes Dave, I know, but I've seen enough so far to know that the 'lowest common denominator' idea is not one that is foreign to the campaign, and that concerns me). Steve M
honeynuggets 02-27-04, 09:35 AM	Not so. Prerequisites are a game mechanic. Access, on the other hand, is an LG-specific rule. To use _anything_ in LG, you need some sort of campaign documentation allowing access to it. It may sound like mere semantics, but it's not. There are many other ways a character might be able to gain access to that Prestige Class -- a reward from a module, a special mission, joining a metagroup from another region, petitioning the Triad to create a new metagroup that allows it, adding it to an existing one, etc. I think we aren't on the same frequency here. The metaOrg I am questioning has listed requirements that must be fulfilled to join that metaOrg. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that the metaOrg's requirement of being able to cast Summon Nature's Ally 3 in order to get access to the Windrider PrC is an "access" restriction. Well, first of all, "Being able to cast Summon Nature's Ally 3" doesn't seem like "campaign documentation" to me. It sounds like a prerequisite. Campaign documentation to me is like when an AR grants access to purchase a magic item. But whatever, if you want to call "Being able to cast Summon Nature's Ally 3" an "access restriction" instead of a prerequisite then fine. All it does is change my argument to: This MetaOrg is denying access to Rangers/Paladins/Fighters/Barbarians, which the official texts says make "excellent" windriders, while granting access to Druids who aren't even mentioned as a class that progresses into the Windrider PrC. The Windrider PrC is very different from the Druid class and only allowing Druids into it is like only allowing Paladins into a Archmage PrC. I can see getting creative with LG texts to come up with new material but it should at least make sense. What would you say if your region set up a metaOrg called Church of Weejas which grants access to some (+1 spellcaster level in existing class)PrCs, but has the "access restriction" - Must have 3 Favored Enemies. It's the exact same thing. The best suited class(Rangers) can't get access to the metaOrg/Windrider PrC until 11th level either. So why should the Church of Weejas allow access to anything below 11th level in a class not suited for the PrCs. If people are relying primarily on their own creativity to come up with these metaOrgs they should do a better job than this example of sticking to the official WoTC prerequisites.
Macabail 02-27-04, 01:39 PM	I thought I would just drop a note here... You keep mentioning (Honeynuggets) that it takes 10 minutes to review a meta-org. I have a definite feeling that you're not quite aware of how long it does take. There are many factors to be considered when approving a meta-org (at least from my view). These include: - Canon references (does it match, if not can it be made to match) - Plot (does it mesh well, if not will it be useful or simply hamper or confuse things) - Balance (it is balanced, if not how major would the necessary changes be to make it balanced). I know from my stand-point that in the Duchy there are a few adaptable p-classes that we've not given access to, why? because they don't really fit the regional theme that well. I would hardly expect Ket or Ekbir or Tusmit to give access to the Darkaghard or Veth classes, but at the same time if there were a Bakluni Mage p-class I would never grant access to it in the Duchy of Urnst. It all comes down to what flavour a region wants, and how they want to give that flavour to players.
kenobi65 02-27-04, 01:45 PM	Originally posted by honeynuggets This MetaOrg is denying access to Rangers/Paladins/Fighters/Barbarians, which the official texts says make "excellent" windriders, while granting access to Druids who aren't even mentioned as a class that progresses into the Windrider PrC. The Windrider PrC is very different from the Druid class and only allowing Druids into it is like only allowing Paladins into a Archmage PrC. There's an important distinction here, that you seem to be glossing over: It sounds like what you really want is to make your PC a Windrider. It *doesn't* sound like you particularly care about entering that particular, druidic, MetaOrg (or, more specifically, the only real motivation you have for interest in the MetaOrg is that it would allow you access to the PrC). If the MetaOrg is truly a druidic group, *of course* it should be difficult for non-druids to qualify. I'm guessing that the MetaOrg doesn't exist solely (or even primarily) to create Windriders. So, your real issue isn't with that MetaOrg; it's that the only way you can see to get at Windrider in your region is via that MetaOrg, for which your PC isn't terribly qualified. So, as Steve has suggested (and, as it's sounded, you've done to a certain extent), I'd look for other ways to get that access, rather than try and get that MetaOrg changed (which was very likely set up for some reason *other* than to grant access to Windrider). Finally, while maybe the folks in your Triad might owe you at least a "we got your request, we're considering it" note, IMO, you're being a little impatient. 3 weeks is not that long to consider such a thing, as has been pointed out; the Triad folks do have other things on their plates.
RLWilde 02-27-04, 07:36 PM	Originally posted by honeynuggets I don't feel that's necessary since I have provided the specific metaorg prerequisite which is causing the exclusion of better suited classes. You're condemning a metaorg without giving us all the pertinent information regarding that metaorg. Unless the metaorg exists solely to provide access to that one Prestige Class, information is missing. Essentially, you're asking us to take your side of the argument without even a glance at the other. In the case of a pure Ranger he/she is kept out until 11th level. I could name names but I don't see it helping since the people I have written to...I'm pretty sure are the region's Triad, one of whom is assigned the task of looking over metaorgs. The Windrider is an adaptable PrC and they require either metaorgs or specific adventure documentation if I'm not mistaken. Therefore, the metaorg is practically the only way to access the class. What about metaorganizations in other regions? You've checked them out? I understand that some may not require residency or play in the region the metaorg is set in. You also sound unsure as to whether it was the Triad you contacted. If it was just an author, you might want to contact the Triad. Have you considered requesting a special mission for your PC to acquire the right to take levels in the Prestige Class? Check it out for yourself. Not without knowing what to compare it to. It might well be superior, but I have no way of determining that.
honeynuggets 02-27-04, 09:10 PM	You keep mentioning (Honeynuggets) that it takes 10 minutes to review a meta-org. I have a definite feeling that you're not quite aware of how long it does take. Heh, I knew this excuse was coming. Reviewers probably already get (or should be demanding) references for the History portion of proposed metaOrgs. This makes for a 5-10 minute read. Reading the metaOrg takes another 10-20 minutes (I read through my region's metaOrgs) Checking for balance can be done in 5-10 minutes by any good min/maxer on these boards. there are a few adaptable p-classes that we've not given access to, why? because they don't really fit the regional theme that well. I agree with keeping with regional themes. But...Limiting a metaOrg to certain classes (which don't even fit with the PrC) doesn't seem like the best way to go. It's not really a "theme" to say "This region has Windriders but only Druids." It just doesn't make any sense. Have none of the Rangers / Paladins / Fighters / Barbarians in the region ever had a flying mount? Why not? They are better at it than Druids and have seen the Druids doing it. See? Doesn't make sense. Druids are a minority compared to the four mentioned classes. Why would a region cater to such an oddball minority? To me a theme is more like: "90% of the regional population is dwarven. The metaOrg grants access only to Dwarves of any class to the Windrider PrC." Now you are saying: "Yes, other races have seen the Windriders and sought to join them but being in a minority kept them from achieving their goal." You are keeping with the theme because you follow a majority trend. Does this mean no minority group can have a metaOrg? Of course not, but if you want an oddball metaOrg like one that gives the Archmage PrC but only to Paladins then you really must have great references for it to fit in the "theme." There's an important distinction here, that you seem to be glossing over: It sounds like what you really want is to make your PC a Windrider. It *doesn't* sound like you particularly care about entering that particular, druidic, MetaOrg (or, more specifically, the only real motivation you have for interest in the MetaOrg is that it would allow you access to the PrC). Yes. MetaOrgs seem to be the predominant method for getting access to PrCs. Yes, I would like my Ranger to be able to get into a PrC that practically screams "Made for Rangers!" If the Druids and people who made the metaOrg in the first place didn't also care about getting the PrC then why did they include it at all? There certainly is no mention of Windriders in the LG campaign setting for the region. I'm guessing that the MetaOrg doesn't exist solely (or even primarily) to create Windriders. I'm guessing that most MetaOrgs exist soley to create access to PrCs. If not, then why have them in the metaOrg at all? Most don't have even a sideways reference to the PrC in LG source material. So, your real issue isn't with that MetaOrg; it's that the only way you can see to get at Windrider in your region is via that MetaOrg, for which your PC isn't terribly qualified. Oh, my issue is definitely with the metaOrg. Here's how I know. There is another MetaOrg/PrC combination that I would like to get a level in. Unfortunately for me there is substantial support text to restrict access to this metaOrg to a specific regional alignment for followers of a certain diety. Even though the PrC itself doesn't require as narrow an alignment choice, the theme of the region supports the restriction. So I have no problem with not being able to get into it because they didn't warp the PrC much. The PrC is clearly cleric-related and clerics can get into the metaOrg. They Aren't limiting the metaOrg to Barbarians for example. 3 weeks is not that long to consider such a thing, as has been pointed out; the Triad folks do have other things on their plates. I am sympathetic to the Triad being overwhelmed with work. It can take the fun out of the game. An email saying something like "We see your point it will take 4 weeks to look it over and upload the revised version" would have shut me up. An email saying "Sorry but on page 666 of the Book of Greyhawk it clearly states there is a company of Druids mounted on giant owls so no other classes can be in it." would have shut me up. An email saying "Sorry, but we don't feel that the MetaOrg is too restrictive." would infuriate me because it would be an untruth. In any case, if they take 4 weeks or more to review a submitted metaOrg (which takes me only 30 minutes) then they really need to delegate some authority. There are literally thousands of well versed people of the message boards than will gladly review and comment on metaOrgs. But will they let someone even just look at their Precious? hehe I dunno people tend to cling to it. Essentially, you're asking us to take your side of the argument without even a glance at the other...Not without knowing what to compare it to. It might well be superior, but I have no way of determining that. I posted my revision on the web. The only changes are the references to Rangers. I altered the locations but you can see that the previous version requires casting Summon Nature's Ally 3 to get the PrC. I didn't delete any of the meat of the document so you can just look at the Druid vs Ranger requirements. What about metaorganizations in other regions? You've checked them out? I understand that some may not require residency or play in the region the metaorg is set in. Whew. Lot of reading but an interesting idea. I didn't know I could join some metaOrgs in other regions. Have you considered requesting a special mission for your PC to acquire the right to take levels in the Prestige Class? This is also an interesting option. It actually seems like more work for the Triad than just reviewing the "ready to use" revision I made. Thanks for the problem solving suggestions.
Mortepierre 02-28-04, 03:39 AM	Checking for balance can be done in 5-10 minutes by any good min/maxer on these boards Well, see, that's your first problem. When PrC are added to the benefits of belonging to a Metaorg, they aren't checked only for balance but also for realism. Does the PrC fit the Metaorg? Does the PrC fit the region? Does the PrC bring something new and exciting to the region? In case you didn't notice, LG isn't about min/maxing our characters but about contributing to the ongoing story of a setting we love dearly. IMHO anything that doesn't fit the setting shouldn't be added at all. Metaorgs are a tool to promote role-playing, not just a quick way to get cool new powers.
BillKronick 02-28-04, 07:37 AM	Originally posted by Mortepierre In case you didn't notice, LG isn't about min/maxing our characters but about contributing to the ongoing story of a setting we love dearly. Woah! What Core Mods have you been playing, and how can *I* get to play them? Bill Kronick
Simpi 02-28-04, 08:28 AM	Originally posted by BillKronick Woah! What Core Mods have you been playing, and how can *I* get to play them? Bill Kronick Come on people, LG is not that tough. Closest calls i've ever had have been with regional modules but they were within EL limits. Only 'what were they smoking' thing i've encountered was with Ghost Tower of Inverness. I consider min/maxing to be: Use any possible supplement, no matter who published it or does it suit the ongoing campaign. For example, using stuff from Forgotten Realms campaign setting when playing Greyhawk (home games obviously). It's up to regional triad (some do good work, others don't) to maintain some sort of control what is made available from those supplements that get included in the LG to preserve regional system. To be honest, i've seen UK players laugh at some demands that american players make in yahoo groups cause they feel their characters are 'restricted'. There is more to LG than prestige classes you know.....
Mortepierre 02-28-04, 05:45 PM	Originally posted by BillKronick Woah! What Core Mods have you been playing, and how can *I* get to play them? Bill Kronick <shrugs> I have played through most of Year 2 and forward Core Mods. Sure, I can't remember ever having an easy time and my characters have tasted dirt a few times but my goal isn't to reach lvl 18 in record time. When I play LG, it's to have a good time role-playing in my favorite setting. So far, I haven't been disappointed.
Canada_K 03-04-04, 09:59 AM	Anyone who expects that they can get exactly what they want for their character, exactly when they want it, shouldn't be playing LG. Rewards are hard earned, and few and far between. Quite frankly, I like it that way. It makes actually gettign something you really wanted that much sweeter. We all knew LG was "gritty" going in. Eventually, you'll learn to love it, I promise. Kent
Entrigan 03-05-04, 01:27 AM	I have been playing LG since year 2 and I have found that metaorgs as a whole are nothing but powergaming tools. It is my experience that anyone that is in a metaorg is in it for the PrC and the feats. That is the only reason that they were created. If the PrC was too overpowering then it can be evaluated on a case by case basis. As far as combos go with PrCs then mod writers need to adjust and use some nasty class combos. Yeah yeah yeah they are also for reigonal flavor and all that crap, but you can acheive more reigonal flavor in a metaorg than having it be an access point for non-core abilities. The holier than thou, up on a soap box, lobbying is retarded. Despite the rant, I don't want anyone to get the idea that I dislike LG. If that was the case I would not play. However, all the talk of "I just want to roleplay" is too often thrown in there in the same breath with "WHERE ARE MY DAMN PrRS AND FEATS". How... hypocritic?
Mortepierre 03-05-04, 02:54 AM	How... hypocritic? Excuse-me? When has claiming we're in for the role-play rather than the power-play become hypocritic? And here I thought D&D was about role-playing... Do you know my characters? No. Do you even know IF they have joined a Metaorg? No. Then please don't speak of what you have no prior knowledge of! It's not because you have adopted a jaded attitude about role-play that some of us aren't still practicing it fair and square. Frankly, I pity you.
WCrawford 03-05-04, 05:43 AM	Originally posted by Mortepierre Excuse-me? When has claiming we're in for the role-play rather than the power-play become hypocritic? And here I thought D&D was about role-playing... Do you know my characters? No. Do you even know IF they have joined a Metaorg? No. Then please don't speak of what you have no prior knowledge of! It's not because you have adopted a jaded attitude about role-play that some of us aren't still practicing it fair and square. Frankly, I pity you. Before you go jumping down someone's throat, make sure you READ carefully. However, all the talk of "I just want to roleplay" is too often thrown in there in the same breath with "WHERE ARE MY DAMN PrRS AND FEATS". This is speaking of those who claim to ONLY want to role-play AND want access to multiple feats, PrCs, items, spells, or whatever through meta-orgs. Since, from your post, you don't fit the description, you have no reason to gripe. Now me, I want all the goodies. I could care less about role-play in LG. I want to meet new and interesting creatures, and then kill them. I want my power attacking, divinely favored, divinely mighted, righteously mighted, hastened, flying, ect., ect. character to cut through hordes of giants like a hot knife through butter. But that is just me. I won't begrugde anyone else having fun with role-play as long as they don't take 2 hours to RP out buying some irrelavant item at a con. In return, I don't expect to be hassled for wanting to beat the snot out of the bad guys and grabbing their toys.
Entrigan 03-05-04, 12:58 PM	First off, I'd like to thank WCrawford for a little thing called reading comprehension and for saying what you really feel. People who are powergamers and could care less about roleplaying are constantly looked down on at LG tables from my experiences. There are times I want to talk with NPCs and there are times I want to fight a dirty dirty fight. Alas, if I were jaded :eek: Jad-ed; adj 1. Wearied: spiritless with fatigue :eek: I would not play. However, as I said I still like LG. Please don't tell me how I feel.
RLWilde 03-08-04, 03:25 AM	Originally posted by Entrigan It is my experience that anyone that is in a metaorg is in it for the PrC and the feats. That may be your experience, but it does not hold true for everyone. My main character is a member of three metaorgs in his home region of Nyrond. The first, Licensed Adventurer, doesn't really give him anything game-mechanic wise. He's in it so he has the right to keep and bear arms within the Kingdom... which is important in-character, but almost never comes up in actual play. The second, a Religious metaorg, does grant him several benefits (mostly spells, plus a couple of items) at tier 1 and tier 2 of the metaorg. However, he's paying an extra 2 TU for tier 3 membership, though I have yet to use any tier 3 benefits. Tier 3 participation is purely for roleplaying purposes. The last, a new metaorg called the Council of the Wilted Rose, doesn't give any game mechanic benefits I'm interested in. Again, the character is in it for purely roleplaying reasons. So, just because some people use metaorg membership solely for game mechanic benefits does NOT mean that all people do the same. Randy
Simpi 03-08-04, 04:35 AM	I think the main problem is the difference between regions. Some regions offer meta-orgs that give very little benefit* in game terms but offer interesting character background/meta-gaming opportunities**. Other region might have a meta-org like: Pay 2TU, get access to every magic item in DMG and other regions players then feel robbed:confused: I don't really know how meta-orgs are designed but maybe circle should put out some standard TU guide for triads who want to design them. Sort of like, offers access to one or two PrC = 1 TU. Offers access to more than two PrCs = add two more per PrC, Any item costing over 5000gp that meta-org offers access = 2 TU and so forth... I do understand both view points in this debate. It's really always up to personal taste of a person, but as Wcrawford pointed out, extreme versions of either side should not be allowed to remove the fun from the game. As long as LG stays challenging and with a clear risk of death, i'm happy. * Such as Hillstalkers of Onnwal who just give you bonus to certain skill rolls and I pay 6TU for this. **Such as rising through church hierarchy as one of my character is doing.
smerwin29 03-08-04, 07:50 AM	Originally posted by Simpi I don't really know how meta-orgs are designed but maybe circle should put out some standard TU guide for triads who want to design them. Sort of like, offers access to one or two PrC = 1 TU. Offers access to more than two PrCs = add two more per PrC, Any item costing over 5000gp that meta-org offers access = 2 TU and so forth... Just such a system is in place, and it has been for at least a year. The problem is that even such a system is inherently flawed because people can still pick and choose exactly the most powerful things for their character and include it in their meta-org. Shawn
RLWilde 03-08-04, 10:44 PM	Originally posted by smerwin29 The problem is that even such a system is inherently flawed because people can still pick and choose exactly the most powerful things for their character and include it in their meta-org. It's not quite that simple, though, since players can't just set something up and say "this is my metaorg". The proposal has to be reviewed and approved.
Steve_MND 03-10-04, 11:04 AM	I have been playing LG since year 2 and I have found that metaorgs as a whole are nothing but powergaming tools. It is my experience that anyone that is in a metaorg is in it for the PrC and the feats. Well, if you and the players you associate with don't wish to use metagroups as RP vehicles, that's fine -- but that's certainly not the case across the board. One of my PCs is a member of a metaorg for absolutely no reason aside from RP purposes (anything it would offer him either is something he already has access to or is completely irrelevant to the PC). Another PC I know of recently had a very difficult time in a module I was running for him as the situation he found himself ended up putting three or four of the metagroups he belonged to at potential odds, and he had to tread very carefully in order to not suffer the consequences (I had already spoken privately with the Triad beforehand so I would know what the repurcussions would be if he did certain actions). So yes, there are indeed people out there that couldn't give a hoot about RP and such, and while they can certainly do as they like, I personally feel they are missing a big part of the campaign. But I would ask that they do not disparage the rest of us who actually like to involve RP into the campaign. You only get out of the campaign what you put into it, and there are possibilities for RP in every mod, every metagroup, and every aspect of the game if you merely wish it to be.
Nidome 03-10-04, 09:24 PM	Originally posted by honeynuggets I agree with keeping with regional themes. But...Limiting a metaOrg to certain classes (which don't even fit with the PrC) doesn't seem like the best way to go. It's not really a "theme" to say "This region has Windriders but only Druids." <big snip> A meta-org is not a PrC. Any requirements a metaorg has should be to do with the "flavour" of the metaorg. Any benefits provided by a metaorg should be appropiate to that metaorg. Just because some of the benefits provided by a metaorg may also be suitable and/or desirable for characters who do not qualify to join the metaorg doesn't mean to say that the metaorg should have it's membership requirements changed so that any character who wants to access it's benefits can do so. If you did that, then you may as well make all PrCs core classes and bring back the year two magic mart. You seem to think that the sole purpose for metaorgs is to provide access. You are Wrong. The purpose of metaorgs is to add "flavour" to a region, to be used to enhance the roleplaying experience in a region. Any benefits they provide, no matter what they are are a bonus to membership, it should not be the reason for it. Characters are not required to access any of the benefits that a metaorg provides and I know of more people who join metaorgs for the roleplaying than for the benefits. The fact that some people abuse metaorgs by joining them for no reason other than the benefits they provide should not be encouraged or applauded. Nick.
honeynuggets 03-10-04, 09:57 PM	PrCs are designed to highly specialize a character at the cost of paying the prerequisites and losing the proportionately higher power special abilities of your core class. Some PrC achieve this goal better than others. They aren't really a way to become superman. The illusion of more powerful characters is created because some very tactically oriented players essentially always "do what their specialized character does best." Surprisingly, many of the metaorgs in my region actually have good references from the Greyhawk campaign setting. The way I see it, many metaOrgs add flavor by creating a path for a character to take a highly specialized class which has some basis for existance in the region's history. I see adding Flavor and adding PrCs, and Access to things as mutually necessary as the best way to handle evolving the story of Living Greyhawk. So no, Access to PrCs and Access to Things is not the sole purpose, but they are necessary for metaOrgs that have some cost to pay. If you make a metaOrg that grants no benefit and costs nothing to enter then that's fine too.