Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LGMoses 01-03-07, 12:52 PM	Are the new classes from the complete books helping or hurting the campaign? Don't they kind of take away from the PHB? Don't they make the classes they expand upon kind of old and useless? What has been the effect of the new classes on the campaign? How many of the new classes are running around now?
Morgen 01-03-07, 12:56 PM	Wha? How the heck could they be hurting the campaign? So someone plays a warmage, that's really not a big deal. Really anything that gives people more variety is a good thing. Though if you want to be a Favored Soul/Warmage/Mystic Thurge you've got a long wait.
kenobi65 01-03-07, 01:11 PM	I don't think that most of the new classes that have been allowed into LG are materially stronger / more effective than the basic PHB classes (Marshall's probably the one exception to that statement). I think that most of the people who play the new classes are looking for variety, not an uber-build. Honestly, most of the newer classes are just niche versions of the base classes. Swashbucker? A light fighter with a roguish splash. Warmage is fundamentally an evoker with some armor. Scout is a ranger/rogue. I haven't seen a whole lot of the newer classes played, anyway. Couple of favored souls, a couple of scouts, a swashbuckler, a marshall, and my warmage. If I felt like most people were eschewing the original classes for the new ones, I think you'd have a different argument...but, at least in my neck of the woods, I'm just not seeing it.
LachlarlanIII 01-03-07, 01:15 PM	Wha? How the heck could they be hurting the campaign? So someone plays a warmage, that's really not a big deal. Really anything that gives people more variety is a good thing. Though if you want to be a Favored Soul/Warmage/Mystic Thurge you've got a long wait. I have, in fact, considered that very combination. :)
tvknight415 01-03-07, 01:30 PM	I think the biggest impact is that the more extra stuff in the campaign, the more time DM's have to spend reviewing all the other classes (& feats, and spells, etc.) before the start of play. Not everyone can afford to keep buying every new book that's approved for LG, and many who do don't have an encyclopedic memory of all the class features. Eric
kenobi65 01-03-07, 01:38 PM	Not everyone can afford to keep buying every new book that's approved for LG, and many who do don't have an encyclopedic memory of all the class features. True, although that's why the LG rules mandate that players who use anything from outside of the 3 core rulebooks have copies of the relevant books (or at least the relevant pages) available at the table; it's the responsibility of the player to have the rules available for the DM to review. Personally, my biggest issue is with wacky spells. "What the heck does *that* do?"
echoota 01-03-07, 01:48 PM	All I've seen people do is start out as one of the extra classes and then switch in a level or two to a PHB class since the extras ones end up being weaker. Now if Scouts' Skirmish could somehow be melded with Rapid Shot, then that would be useful! Still, keep them coming! More variety is needed. I dislike how the options open to us are essentially what we had with AD&D. I couldn't stand the restrictions then and while it has loosened up with 3.5 we still haven't really broken out of the molds yet.
Samwise 01-03-07, 02:15 PM	New classes, like other new stuff, are hurting the campaign by overloading DMs and players alike. I barely bother asking people what their characters do anymore, there is simply so much out there. I just tell them to have the rules ready for when I go "Say what?" over their AC 50 or attack bonus of 40 or damage of 200. For players, it leads to constant difficulties in being able to plan for what might be in an adventure. A writer has even more options with things that are forbidden or limited to players. A new feat or spell can leave players screaming about a DM cheating because of something that is "impossible." It eventually reaches a point of diminishing returns.
budleiser 01-03-07, 02:26 PM	Are the new classes from the complete books helping or hurting the campaign? Helping.:eek: Don't they kind of take away from the PHB? Define "Kind of". :D (Can you think of a way to add new classes and not take away from the old ones? You can't eat more pie and have the same amount of pie left. ) Don't they make the classes they expand upon kind of old and useless? Nope. Do you think so? If so which ones? Why don't you go into more detail and give us your examples? What has been the effect of the new classes on the campaign? Interest rates are up, property ownership is down, and the market is at a steady decline. :P How many of the new classes are running around now? Since most do not fly, almost all of them are running around. ;) They give more players more options. Wizards, Druids and Clerics are still the "powerful" builds who actually have a lasting power curve. Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger and the such remain mostly dip classes because they are so front heavy in the power curve. Other classes still tend to be underplayed because of the nature of LG, its hard to be a good support character when the party changes every mod.
LGMoses 01-03-07, 02:36 PM	I don't think that most of the new classes that have been allowed into LG are materially stronger / more effective than the basic PHB classes (Marshall's probably the one exception to that statement). I think that most of the people who play the new classes are looking for variety, not an uber-build. Honestly, most of the newer classes are just niche versions of the base classes. Swashbucker? A light fighter with a roguish splash. Warmage is fundamentally an evoker with some armor. Scout is a ranger/rogue. I haven't seen a whole lot of the newer classes played, anyway. Couple of favored souls, a couple of scouts, a swashbuckler, a marshall, and my warmage. If I felt like most people were eschewing the original classes for the new ones, I think you'd have a different argument...but, at least in my neck of the woods, I'm just not seeing it. I'm with ya kenobi. I'm just asking for everybodies opinion. Also, we have some non RPGA gamers running where I'm at on different days and they have kids and first time players playing that own supplements but not the phb! People that have never played a standard class playing one of the side classes.
Morgen 01-03-07, 06:42 PM	I have, in fact, considered that very combination. :) Awesome, just remember to be Sueloise so you qualify for the Well Read feat and can get into the PrC before like level 10. ;) Favored Souls don't get Knowledge Religion as a class skill after all.
Sieylianna 01-03-07, 06:55 PM	I think the additional classes are hurting. It's one level here and another level there. DM's can't keep up with the changes and a significant number of players take advantage of that. If I'm running an APL 8 table, I could easily have 8-10 non-standard and prestige classes represented at the table. If I review the material for each one, you've lost a significant chunk of play time. Ed
Genghis Cohen 01-03-07, 07:37 PM	Awesome, just remember to be Sueloise so you qualify for the Well Read feat and can get into the PrC before like level 10. ;) Favored Souls don't get Knowledge Religion as a class skill after all.Or have your character live in a region that allows for Well Read.
clannagh 01-03-07, 07:47 PM	most people dip into the new classes rather than take them right through 3 levels of swashbuckler seems common (look at all the swashbuckler/corelans) rogue##/scout3 also seems to pop up a bit
PaulH 01-03-07, 07:52 PM	Hi I look at the new classes as 'concepts', not necessarily classes themselves. My main PC is a Cleric/Warmage 'support' character. (Going Mystic Theurge). Hardly optimised, but good for roleplaying. Sure - Warmages make the best Blaster Casters. Far superior than a Sorceror, but Sorcerors can choose other 'useful' non-damaging spells. Even the Advanced Learning only grants Evocation spells. (Tenser's Disk & Leomund's Tiny Hut are good choices). It's the Prestige Classes that have a deeper impact on the game. Druid 5/Master Many Forms 2/Warshaper 2, in Troll form has Str 27 Con 27, and is immune to stunning, crits (and therefore sneak attacks). Add Shillelagh on Gt Club (needs prof feat), and the Str makes up for the poor +6 BAB at 9th lvl. (Attack +15/10 Damage 3D8+13). Probably better examples, (Druid 5/Warshaper4)? But I find it's often " how do I get to this PrC best"? The actual basic classes worked out last. Cheers Paul H
LGMoses 01-03-07, 10:20 PM	I think the additional classes are hurting. It's one level here and another level there. DM's can't keep up with the changes and a significant number of players take advantage of that. If I'm running an APL 8 table, I could easily have 8-10 non-standard and prestige classes represented at the table. If I review the material for each one, you've lost a significant chunk of play time. Ed yeah, getting drowned in a sea of multiclass characters is a common recurring nightmare of mine. :eek:
clannagh 01-04-07, 12:11 AM	Hi But I find it's often " how do I get to this PrC best"? The actual basic classes worked out last. Cheers Paul H That is more to do with the convoluted requirements for a lot of prestige classes. Deep Warden for example is an obvious choice for dwarven fighters but requires skills and feats that suit a ranger (which is not the dwarf favored class) .. I could name a heap of others but the point most prestige classes require some initial inclination to go that way from a low level ... it's not possible to just randomly decide to go Pious Templar or Champion of Corellan or Cavellier etc etc a level or two beforehand. Unfortunately if you allow prestige class with complex pre-requisites you need to allow people to plan for them. take my initial example .. the odds against "accidently" meeting the pre-requisites for Deepwarden (endurance plus 5 ranks in 5 or so skills including dungeoneering) before level 20 or so are not high.
LGMoses 01-04-07, 01:26 AM	I've never had a character with a prestige class before in any dnd game.... I was going for archmage with my first evoker wizard but we ended that campaign (the dm was scared of my spells and angered by my counterspelling his big npc villains spells :rofl: ) at level 7. Yeah, I think nothing pisses off a dm trying to drive a plot through than counterspelling dramatic spellcasting moments for the BBEG's and etc. But I am very intrigued with a certain prestige class within the Yeomanry. I've been musing over a build for it too... But I'll never get to play though so whats the point :(
TWG_Prometheus 01-04-07, 08:22 AM	I think the additional classes are hurting. It's one level here and another level there. DM's can't keep up with the changes and a significant number of players take advantage of that. If I'm running an APL 8 table, I could easily have 8-10 non-standard and prestige classes represented at the table. If I review the material for each one, you've lost a significant chunk of play time. Ed I thought that's what the LGCS was for. Prestige Classes are definitely an area that can get out of control, but the Circle has the ability to allow or deny any of them that come along. As far as the nonstandard base classes, there's only a very small set of them, and the abilities they posses that differ from the Core base classes are relatively minor. I don't feel sorry for a Judge that hasn't reviewed the nonstandard base classes that are available to LG. Moreover, I expect that most LG tables are run within local environments. Inside those local environments, people generally know what the other people are playing, and there doesn't tend to be a massive amount of variation. In my experience at least. If you're talking about doing an audit of every PC at your high level table at a con where you don't know any of the players, then I can see the issue arising more often. That's as much an issue of not being able to trust your players as it is the game, however.
Haro 01-04-07, 08:41 AM	I believe the extra classes have vastly helped the campaign. In my neck of the woods, many people have retired one PC, with (for argument's sake) three active ones. What I find is that many/most of the newer characters are from the complete classes, so that in itself suggests that their availability helps maintain interest in the campaign. With regard to these base classes making it tougher on DMs, may I very politely say err, no. What makes it painfully hard for DMs is having to run the weird, nasty and nonsensical monsters from newer books that are different just for the sake of being different. Add prestige class levels or a template to it from an obscure book like say, Libris Mortis to get unimaginable synergies with its spell-like abilities etc. and you have your recipe for DM meltdown at a table - especially on a limited prep time. It's hardly difficult to remember that Swashbucklers add Int to damage, Scouts have a variation of sneak attack or Favored Souls are the divine version of a Sorceror in comparison is it? Joe
trollbill 01-04-07, 11:01 AM	I think the additional classes are hurting. It's one level here and another level there. DM's can't keep up with the changes and a significant number of players take advantage of that. If I'm running an APL 8 table, I could easily have 8-10 non-standard and prestige classes represented at the table. If I review the material for each one, you've lost a significant chunk of play time. Ed The DMs aren't the ones that are supposed to be keeping track of all that, the players are. Sure, there is the issue with keeping the players honest. But let's face it, you just can't run LG if you have a serious problem with player honesty.
DuctShuiTengu 01-07-07, 12:50 PM	Druid 5/Master Many Forms 2/Warshaper 2, in Troll form has Str 27 Con 27, and is immune to stunning, crits (and therefore sneak attacks). Add Shillelagh on Gt Club (needs prof feat), and the Str makes up for the poor +6 BAB at 9th lvl. (Attack +15/10 Damage 3D8+13). :banghead: No. No. No. :banghead: Shillelagh specificly says: Your own nonmagical club or quarterstaff becomes a weapon with a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. (A quarterstaff gains this enhancement for both ends of the weapon.) It deals damage as if it were two size categories larger (a Small club or quarterstaff so transmuted deals 1d8 points of damage, a Medium 2d6, and a Large 3d6), +1 for its enhancement bonus. These effects only occur when the weapon is wielded by you. If you do not wield it, the weapon behaves as if unaffected by this spell. Please note: "club or quarterstaff." Not "wooden weapon of your choice."
clannagh 01-07-07, 04:57 PM	With regard to these base classes making it tougher on DMs, may I very politely say err, no. What makes it painfully hard for DMs is having to run the weird, nasty and nonsensical monsters from newer books that are different just for the sake of being different. Add prestige class levels or a template to it from an obscure book like say, Libris Mortis to get unimaginable synergies with its spell-like abilities etc. and you have your recipe for DM meltdown at a table - especially on a limited prep time. Joe Its those complex monsters with templates (that are often also one trick ponies as well) that result in some mods becoming walkovers for Party A and TPK's for Party B depending on how well the GM plays the monster and its strange abilities.
Jay_Ibero_911 01-07-07, 06:34 PM	I think the biggest impact is that the more extra stuff in the campaign, the more time DM's have to spend reviewing all the other classes (& feats, and spells, etc.) before the start of play. Not everyone can afford to keep buying every new book that's approved for LG, and many who do don't have an encyclopedic memory of all the class features. Eric Honestly, in my entire LG experience, including at least a dozen cons as well as various home games and gamedays, I've never seen a single DM review anything about anyone at a table before playing, asside from sometimes asking about wierd curses, or things specificially relevant to the mod. I think most players have an easy time realizing there is something fishy with a character. As previously mentioned, what really seems to detract from the game is all the funky new monsters. From my experience, about 50% of DM's actually get to prep before they run, and when they don't get to prep, they either need to take time to figure out how to run a monster, or wind up running it wrong for better or worse...For every option PC's get, there are about 100 available to NPC's...
jstorrie 01-07-07, 07:22 PM	I barely bother asking people what their characters do anymore, there is simply so much out there. I just tell them to have the rules ready for when I go "Say what?" over their AC 50 or attack bonus of 40 or damage of 200. All of these are trivially easy to do with just PHB classes. There are remarkably few splatbook rules items that are significantly more powerful than PHB rules items - about two dozen, I'd estimate. Wood Elf Barbarian / Ranger is core. Dwarf Cleric is core. Gnome Illusionist is core. Having more material just means I can put together more character concepts without having to resort to suboptimal material. Could I play an unarmored, wisecracking swashbuckler in core? Yes, but I'd feel a bit like I was letting my table down by playing something so low-powered. Now that there are additional class and feat options, I can better tailor my numbers to fit my character. That is A Good Thing.
Samwise 01-07-07, 08:27 PM	Trivially easy? A bit more than that with just PHB feats. And it is not so much that it can be done core to one degree or other, but the endless variations on it. When a lumbering half-orc barbarian does it, you expect it. When the halfling wizard with an 8 Str suddenly does 250 damage with some weapon, it makes you question what is going on. Again though, I've been accustomed to it. As long as the player is ready to explain his feat stack and such, I don't mind. I've had several players tell me they've had DMs who jump right to accusing them of cheating, and others who refuse to let them use their characters according to the rules.
clannagh 01-07-07, 08:36 PM	Trivially easy? A bit more than that with just PHB feats. getting that sort of damage is realtively simple .. and attack bonuses over 30 are not hard especially for reckless raging barbarian types and archers .. though attack bonus 40 is getting tricky without true strike .. the hard one to get unless you are a trog form wizzie with a zillion buffs is probably the AC of 50
_m_ 01-07-07, 11:20 PM	yeah, getting drowned in a sea of multiclass characters is a common recurring nightmare of mine. :eek: lol, i have a lvl 6 with 5 classes, who by 15 will have 9 classes from 6 books, and my main at 15 will have 1 from phb, 1 from CA, 1 template, 4 from tome of magic. i love multiclassing
Cynric 01-08-07, 05:05 AM	Personally, I think they are great for concept builds. My latest character is going scout ranger dread commando. He is the typical woodsy guys who can find and disarm traps that humanoids put in the forest when hunting and does not want any of that spell casting stuff. Personally, I think scout is a lot better than ranger for the woodsy type of character.
jstorrie 01-08-07, 01:48 PM	TWhen the halfling wizard with an 8 Str suddenly does 250 damage with some weapon, it makes you question what is going on. You're clouding the issue with hyperbole. Splatbooks or no, an 8-str halfling wizard is not going to be dealing 250 damage straight up with a regular melee attack.
Samwise 01-08-07, 01:56 PM	You're clouding the issue with hyperbole. Splatbooks or no, an 8-str halfling wizard is not going to be dealing 250 damage straight up with a regular melee attack. Are you sure? These days, I'm not.
_m_ 01-08-07, 09:12 PM	Are you sure? These days, I'm not. everyone knows halflings are just comic relief. the only way they do damage is if they get 'fling ally'd. *grin*
clannagh 01-08-07, 09:26 PM	Are you sure? These days, I'm not. problem in LG is he limited to a medium polymorph still maybe something with pounce and shock trooper and a heap of buffs and some lucky rolls so all the attacks critical ??? might be the only way to qualify for spellsword if you forget to do it at level one.
timerino 01-08-07, 10:00 PM	I really enjoy the variety (variety is the spice of life) that the expanded 'base' classes offer. There are a lot of PrC's out there and then there are not enough. There are plenty of archtypes for which a player does not have a good PrC to 'mechanically' shoot for. As a judge, I find that the long long list of feats is more cumbersome than classes. Most classes can be summarized with quick elevator speech: we can usually tell when an ability seems overpowering. However, feats ... a decision on the spot or a tactic based on some wierd feat combination is more cumbersome. Now: that's not a complaint. Neither the abundance of feats or classes hurt RPGA. But if WoTC comes out with an anthology of feats (and all those optional uses of skills with recommended DCs) the feats problem (like the spell problem solved in a large part by the spell compendium) will be greatly lessened. I think the diversity of classes help the RPGA by giving us more play options that doesn't usually slow down game play. Usually it's some wierd ability (once per day or two) which is less cumbersome and exposition-prone than a spell of the same level. The diversity of feats are great, but can slow down game play. timerino
bhale187 01-08-07, 10:11 PM	I'm a hard-headed old school purist who hates change, therefore I am not at all happy to see all the new books with their fancy new classes and rules. On the other hand, I realize these things play a vital role in the continued sucesss of WOTC and D&D, so I guess we have to live with them. I just wish they wouldn't "infect" the last surviving bit of old-school D&D we call Living Greyhawk.
budleiser 01-08-07, 10:13 PM	I'm a hard-headed old school purist who hates change, therefore I am not at all happy to see all the new books with their fancy new classes and rules. On the other hand, I realize these things play a vital role in the continued sucesss of WOTC and D&D, so I guess we have to live with them. I just wish they wouldn't "infect" the last surviving bit of old-school D&D we call Living Greyhawk. LOL
Japangirl 01-08-07, 10:18 PM	everyone knows halflings are just comic relief. the only way they do damage is if they get 'fling ally'd. *grin* Or if they sneak attack the golem!
_m_ 01-08-07, 10:27 PM	Or if they sneak attack the golem! ok fine... OR if they do that... ... after being flung into combat with it.
haferka 01-09-07, 11:35 AM	I for one enjoy the splatbooks and all the options they offer. They add alot of variety to the game which inspire players to be unique. I have seen players take non-optimal options simply for the flavor. The constantly changing rulebase adds a level of complexity that I enjoy.
kenobi65 01-09-07, 12:47 PM	I'm a hard-headed old school purist who hates change, therefore I am not at all happy to see all the new books with their fancy new classes and rules. You're still not sure about druids or rogues, are you? Anything that goes beyond the original "fighting man, magic-user, cleric" hasn't been tested sufficiently for balance. ;)