Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LGMoses 12-28-06, 01:03 AM	Ok, lets say that PC 1 goes down in the square teen feet from an ogre. (large creature w/ 10 foot reach). Directly behind PC 1 is PC 2. On his turn, PC 2 reaches and grabs PC 1 and proceeds to drag him away from combat. Is an AoO provoked? By who? Who is goign to get smacked?
Jay_Ibero_911 12-28-06, 01:45 AM	Only PC 2 COULD provoke an AOO, as you only provoke by taking actions, and an unconsious character being dragged is not taking any actions. PC 2 probably would provoke both for grabbing PC 1, and for moving out of a threatened square...
LGMoses 12-28-06, 02:15 AM	How is he provoking for grabbing? How is he provoking for moving out of a threatened square?
Jay_Ibero_911 12-28-06, 02:22 AM	How is he provoking for grabbing? How is he provoking for moving out of a threatened square? Whoops, misread the distance, just PC 1 in threatened range, PC 2 was clear, so PC 2 wouldn't provoke in that scenario, however if PC 1 were adjacent to the Ogre, and PC 2 right behind him 10 ft away, then PC 2 would provoke for both the grabbing and the movement.
budleiser 12-28-06, 08:53 AM	Whoops, misread the distance, just PC 1 in threatened range, PC 2 was clear, so PC 2 wouldn't provoke in that scenario, however if PC 1 were adjacent to the Ogre, and PC 2 right behind him 10 ft away, then PC 2 would provoke for both the grabbing and the movement. Just to clarify the ogre would need combat reflexes to take both AOO's but im sure most people realize that.
Jay_Ibero_911 12-28-06, 02:29 PM	Just to clarify the ogre would need combat reflexes to take both AOO's but im sure most people realize that. Just to clarify a clarification, regardless of the number of of AOO's the ogre has available, the previous actions would still PROVOKE the AOO, it's just a matter of whether or not the ogre can actually TAKE the AOO. Of course, now we are getting into semantics....I know I'm being silly...
ShinAkuma2 12-28-06, 06:08 PM	Only PC 2 COULD provoke an AOO, as you only provoke by taking actions, and an unconsious character being dragged is not taking any actions. That's not strictly true...If you are moved through, say, a Bull Rush or an Awesome Blow, you provoke an AoO. That's why most forced movement feats/abilities have to specify that they don't force the affected enemy to provoke. I wouldn't allow an unconcious character to provoke, however...An AoO represents a character giving a temporary lapse in his active defense, creating an opening. An unconcious character already has no defense, so there cannot be an additional opening.
LGMoses 12-28-06, 11:55 PM	that actually makes sense....
trollbill 01-02-07, 04:18 PM	Well, the real issue here is what it takes to pick up a fallen comrade. Since you are grabbing an non-animate object, it is not a grapple (otherwise you would have to move into the square with the fallen comrade, which would provoke). But can you pick up a fallen comrade from an an adjacent square, or do you have to enter it to move it? Once you answer that question, you can start to answer the other one.
Gelth 01-02-07, 04:27 PM	According to the FAQ, you cannot take an attack of opportunity if you can't reach the target. This is clarified in the section on Close Quarters Fighting, but the same principal. The dragger can't be AoOd by the ogre, as the ogre can't reach. On the other hand, whether you can drag someone out of an adjacent square is debateable. I'd probably allow it, but it's not covered by the rules that I know of. The draggee almost certainly is provoking and can be attacked (reference Bull Rush). Whether the ogre will bother to take that attack is another question. --Penn, Ket Triad
LGMoses 01-02-07, 04:54 PM	Well, the real issue here is what it takes to pick up a fallen comrade. Since you are grabbing an non-animate object, it is not a grapple (otherwise you would have to move into the square with the fallen comrade, which would provoke). But can you pick up a fallen comrade from an an adjacent square, or do you have to enter it to move it? Once you answer that question, you can start to answer the other one. no, i see you could just reach your hand over and grab a part of him and drag him. Ur not picking up, you're dragging. That is an important distinction.
trollbill 01-02-07, 05:03 PM	no, i see you could just reach your hand over and grab a part of him and drag him. Ur not picking up, you're dragging. That is an important distinction. Depending on how you look at it, though, you could argue that reaching into their square sufficiently to secure enough of a purchase to drag them out actually constitutes entering the square. I actually rule the other way. But not because of how I interpret the rules or the logic of the situation. I rule that way because 99% of the time it is a situation where one character is desperately trying to save the life of another, and I don't think I should be discouraging such behavior at my table.
Lupo 01-02-07, 05:33 PM	Depending on how you look at it, though, you could argue that reaching into their square sufficiently to secure enough of a purchase to drag them out actually constitutes entering the square. I actually rule the other way. But not because of how I interpret the rules or the logic of the situation. I rule that way because 99% of the time it is a situation where one character is desperately trying to save the life of another, and I don't think I should be discouraging such behavior at my table. due to the FAQ rulings on combat reflexes, a creature with natural reach and/or "improved grab" can grab a creature in an adjacent square and drag it over WITHOUT provoking an AoO. everyone else seem to have to enter the relevant square and will provoke an AoO. ciao martin m. ps: once i even got an AoO versus a foe falling through my threat range.
LGMoses 01-02-07, 07:47 PM	once again. I'm not worried so much about if the grabber is getting smacked. I want to know if the guy getting dragged is going to provoke.
Lupo 01-03-07, 02:47 AM	once again. I'm not worried so much about if the grabber is getting smacked. I want to know if the guy getting dragged is going to provoke. i would say yes, even when the guy is dragged, it is still movement and there seem to be no difference from what or how the movement is comitted. and with "combat reflexes" a foe might get one AoO vs. the dragger and one vs. the dragged :rolleyes: it is one of those "between a rock and a hard place" situations like being prone etc. best tactics at low level is a smokestick or "obscuring mist", at higher levels marbles with "continual darkness" are perfect tools for anti-AoOing and anti-sneaking (a cleric can produce them in advance if the module has some prep days) to get someone out of it. even better when applied by another party member :) (indstead of pinpricking an ogre zombie with a wand of magic missile 1st lvl, like a wiz in a recent module i played did, he was sooooooooooo pathetic :weep:). ciao martin m.
Jay_Ibero_911 01-04-07, 07:33 PM	i would say yes, even when the guy is dragged, it is still movement and there seem to be no difference from what or how the movement is comitted. and with "combat reflexes" a foe might get one AoO vs. the dragger and one vs. the dragged :rolleyes: it is one of those "between a rock and a hard place" situations like being prone etc. best tactics at low level is a smokestick or "obscuring mist", at higher levels marbles with "continual darkness" are perfect tools for anti-AoOing and anti-sneaking (a cleric can produce them in advance if the module has some prep days) to get someone out of it. even better when applied by another party member :) (indstead of pinpricking an ogre zombie with a wand of magic missile 1st lvl, like a wiz in a recent module i played did, he was sooooooooooo pathetic :weep:). ciao martin m. Actually, the darkness spell does not prevent AOO's. It would just give the AOO's 20% miss chance....
ShinAkuma2 01-04-07, 09:45 PM	Actually, the darkness spell does not prevent AOO's. It would just give the AOO's 20% miss chance.... Right, it's Cover or Total Concealment that prevents AoOs. Regular Concealment gets the shaft.
LGMoses 01-04-07, 09:51 PM	So darkness doesn't mean completely pitch black darkness? it just means really hard to see? is that how it works?
Jay_Ibero_911 01-04-07, 10:44 PM	So darkness doesn't mean completely pitch black darkness? it just means really hard to see? is that how it works? Read the darkness spell. It only provides 20% miss chance from concealment. Useful for negating sneak attack, or making combat more difficult for everyone except for devils and those with blindsight...
ShinAkuma2 01-05-07, 01:45 AM	So darkness doesn't mean completely pitch black darkness? it just means really hard to see? is that how it works? "Shadowy Illumination", as per the spell description.
Lupo 01-05-07, 04:18 AM	So darkness doesn't mean completely pitch black darkness? it just means really hard to see? is that how it works? according to the RAW, the spell would create an area of shadowy illumination even in natural darkness :D a good tactic when you don't want to warn the foes with bright lightsources. ciao martin m. ps: i wouldn't allow it though, just out of common sense, spirit of the rules and "intention" of the spell.
Lupo 01-05-07, 04:22 AM	Right, it's Cover or Total Concealment that prevents AoOs. Regular Concealment gets the shaft. yea, i was wrong :( so you only get total concealment - and therefore no AoO - with: smokestick, fog cloud and obscuring mist. ciao martin m.
LGMoses 01-05-07, 02:39 PM	wow, i had completely misunderstood how darkness worked....
trollbill 01-05-07, 02:59 PM	Yeah, they used so much darkness in the previous editions of the game that they only had enough left to do Shadowy Illumination when 3.5 came out.