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| Cardinal Teplin04-29-05, 05:21 PM | This time last year we had a fair lengthy discussion on autosurprise in Greyahwk mods. That is, where monsters automatically surprise the PCs for no good reason, and thus move into very close range or even attack before initiative is rolled. A subsection of this is the so-called 'elevator monster' - monsters that suddenly appear next to your PC for no clear reason. I should point out that this isn't about surprise per se, which may entirely justified given the circumstances but about automatic and/or unsubstantiated surprise. I personally haven't noticed this happening nearly as often as it did before, which is, to my mind, an excellent trend. The question is, have other people had the same experience? |
| oroborous04-29-05, 09:18 PM | My character has a fairly high spot and listen check, plus, as a human with darkvision, he should catch a few NPCs unawares (since I don't think you can tell someone has darkvision just by looking at them, aside from known racial factors). However, there are mods that were written with rediculously high spot checks against low-level creatures with strangely high hide and move silently checks. I've "stumbled" over lurking enemies that should have been easily spotted by someone with my character's feats and skills, all because it was written that way. As a character, I was like "WTF!", but when I judged the mods and looking at the stats, I was like "WTF?". Now with more mod writers as Triad, Circle and reviewers the problem is going away, as you said. |
| solbergb04-30-05, 12:54 AM | I'm glad to hear it isn't happening as often for you. As long as judges use the encounter rules in the PHB and DMG, you should see little of this. Most mods don't say anything about encounter distance, they just lay out the tacticals and statblocks and leave it up to the judge. A judge who has not prepped the mod carefully...may often make the encounter be the size of his battlemap, perhaps with a token spot check. Some mods do have either tiered checks not reflected in the statblocks or impossible tacticals. This is the exception in the mods I've seen (Pale mods, NMR metaregionals and Core mods), by a factor of about 10-1. I can't speak for other regions, but I did recently visit Duchy of Urnst and don't remember any autosurprise there either in a weekend of mods. There were a few situations that were kind of strange but I'm 99% positive it was the judges, as several we got were pressed into duty due to overwhelming demand and it was the guys running "cold" who tended to be sloppy about things like terrain/charge lanes and encounter distances. Nothing really bad, but there was one charge rolled back on protests from the players. |
| Cardinal Teplin04-30-05, 05:43 AM | Interesting... I can't say I've ever run into people with strangely high hide/move silently checks, although I have run into situations where no check was permitted. I've also only once run into a situation where encounter distance rules were used - in over a year of playing since the last time this topic came up. It would be nice to see more, but from what I understand they do seem hard to write. It sounds like people do have a variety of experience in this area. Autosurprise is not dead, and it's probably not realistic to expect it to be eliminated entirely, but perhaps not the problem it used to be? |
| JohnduBois04-30-05, 11:27 AM | unless the module specifically states that the characters must be surprised, I allow the appropriate checks. However, as players in one module learned, the Listen DC to distinguish an invisible person casting a spell in a busy street where everyone speaks a language the PC's don't know is pretty high... |
| Cardinal Teplin05-01-05, 07:39 PM | I've run into far too many characters who can spot invisible people with ease. Being in a crowd is useful though... |
| honeynuggets05-29-05, 08:54 AM | I see DMs trying to autosurprise just about every adventure. The percentage of the DM population that allows Auto-Surprises suggests three things to me. 1. Some DMs are intimidated by the whole Encounter Start Distance, Spot, Listen, Scent, Blindsight, Tremorsense, etc. rules. So rather than wade into those waters they just plunk down minis 30 feet apart, give players a spot check, and the ones who fail or lose init in the surprise round get whalloped. This can be resolved by an official clarification/simplification of the rules. I have an unofficial document that teaches people how to do it at http://members.cox.net/shinyhalo/ENCOUNTERSTARTDISTANCE.pdf 2. Some DMs are "tactically challenged." They don't know how to or they don't make an effort to try and set up encounters to favor the baddies. When able players trounce the foes in one round they start to feel like they aren't challenging them enough so they resort to cheesy things like the auto-surprise. Adventure authors are also guilty of this when they are purposefully vague about a scenes details and just say "Players who fail a DC 20 spot check are surprised as they wander down the alley." Every encounter should have a detailed map which the DM should accurately describe to the players, but not neccessarily draw out since that will alert the players to a potential ambush. For example, have them set up their minis in their default formation at the start of the adventure. Then "It is nighttime in the city of Gryrax and you need to cross a lot of distance to reach the Mutthead Inn. The roads are poorly lit and fairly deserted." This will prompt the players to specify any special precautions against ambush which is fair to them. Tactical pointer: Bad guys are paranoid so let them set up their lair to their advantage. Barricades, broken stairs, blocking paths to get to them with objects, etc. are all simple tactics that any baddie can use without the adventure having to mention it. 3. Some DMs are malicious and take advantage of this loophole in the rules to kill players. You usually won't find these DMs at conventions because they like people to keep coming back. Local events have them though. Auto-surprises can kill off great players easily. |
| Samwise05-29-05, 10:27 PM | 1. There is nothing to be intimidated about with those rules. What you are still ignoring, as you did the last time this came up, is that the Encounter Distance rules are not relevant in a set encounter as opposed to a random encounter. The other rules are only slightly more relevant, requiring DMs to be made aware that PC abilities and skill checks can modify the standard boxed text. 2. I happen to find more players are tactically challeneged than DMs. But that is neither here nor there. What is a more significant issue is that most tactics are irrelevant in encounters, either because the cramped area makes them impossible beyond "who stands in front?", or because the sheer number of variations possible among characters makes any attempt to establish a standard tactical plan impossible, or because the sheer amount of damage being dealt at higher levels makes them irrelevant, as a combat is over before the first round is completed. You are correct, and DMs should provide some sort of basic reference map, or at least a very set and specific description of the range at the start of combat. However, your suggestion of a description of the situation, without drawing a map, will not resolve anything. In fact, it is more likely to cause increased outrage among certain players, as they insist they would have taken certain actions if they'd known this or that extra, or if they'd been placed on a map. Sure such a suggestion is absurd at its core (That's why its called an "ambush", because they didn't know.) 3. No matter what is written or not written in a module, if a DM decides he wants to kill a character he will. That is a flaw of individual DMs, and not relevant to the contents of a module. Now if you want something that apparently needs to be made a bit more clear in modules, it is very simple: You always get a Spot or Listen check to avoid surprise. A character's abilities can modify the encounter description. Neither of these need to be specifically stated in an encounter. If no DC is given for such a check, establish one (by rolling Hide or Move Silently as appropriate) when the encounter begins. If a DC is given, that is to be considered the modified roll of any bad guy involved, and you do not need to make an additional roll. There you go. That's it. Then make sure everyone knows that auto-surprise does not exist. What confuses people is that the DM (or module author) may arbitrarily (note that: arbitrarily) rule that the bad guys may not be surprised in an encounter. However, this does not mean they can not be caught flat footed. That is another major error people make, both players and DMs. Surprise means you run a surprise partial round for some of the participants in the encounter. Even if someone, character or bad guy, is not surprised, or has been declared immune to surprise, they may still be flat-footed when an encounter begins. Also some bad guys may have such obscene hide or move silent modifiers, that it is impossible or next to impossible to make the rolls to avoid being surprised by them. Again, this is different from auto-surprise. It might be cheap, but it is not against the rules. |
| Southernskies05-30-05, 10:09 AM | As long as judges use the encounter rules in the PHB and DMG, you should see little of this. Most mods don't say anything about encounter distance, they just lay out the tacticals and statblocks and leave it up to the judge. A judge who has not prepped the mod carefully...may often make the encounter be the size of his battlemap, perhaps with a token spot check. One problem currently is the DMG3.5 removed the Encounter Distance table that was in the DMG3.0 I had to photocopy it and tape it into my DMG so I had it available, and have included an encounter distance with every mod I write (both the DC25+hide and the Spot vs Hide at 1/2 the encounter distance). The only time I don't is obvious encounter distances (such as dungeon rooms or taverns). It also helps if the writer/editor/triad member actually knows the rules. The only way to educate them, is unfortunately to write high quality adventures and hope they don't get butchered during the editing process ("Don't understand that rules reference. Delete button!") As a player, I have been endlessly frustrated by Judges (and writers) who always set the encounter distance to the charge range of the NPC/Monster. Normally this is either further than the PCs can go themselves, or they win initiative and pin you melee before you can use any strategy or missile fire. |
| honeynuggets05-30-05, 11:56 PM | the Encounter Distance rules are not relevant in a set encounter as opposed to a random encounter. . ? By "set encounter" you mean one where the author specifically says something like..."any pc failing a DC 20 spot check is surprised" and no other variation is allowed, regardless of the particular skills/feats/abilities of the PCs? If so, that's a bs "auto-whatever" encounter. Now if you want something that apparently needs to be made a bit more clear in modules, it is very simple: You always get a Spot or Listen check to avoid surprise.. This is what already exists most of the time. Lots of "auto-surprise" DMs allow a spot check to act during a surprise round, but this is inadequate because they usually let the NPCs automatically spot the PCs. The end result is that all of the NPCs get to act during the surprise round and usually only the "scout" in the party will get to join in during the surprise round. Further, these types of DMs plop down minis as close as possible to the PCs with absolutely zero consideration of terrain type. Last Saturday, the DM tried to plunk down a Large sized monster 10 feet from my character! lol. Finally, the fair possibility of the PC's scout to surprise npcs is very very rare. A character's abilities can modify the encounter description. Agree. A character with a high Spot should be given the opportunity to notice foes at a distance appropriate with the type of terrain. Neither of these need to be specifically stated in an encounter. Disagree. Everything needs to be specified or confusion will arise. Look at all the confusion regarding the D&D rules. omg they need a better writer to explain things. Besides, it only takes one line to give all the info like: terrain, distance, etc. It's just lazy to not do it. Vagueness fosters anxiety in players and they start thinking about rules the whole time instead of focusing on roleplaying. It happens to me all the time. I wish I could kick back and be sure the DM isn't going to make a mistake, but it's unrealistic. I too make mistakes when DMing so the way I see it, the more quick reference sheets with specific details there are the better. |
| kjenks05-31-05, 08:57 AM | I personally haven't noticed this happening nearly as often as it did before, which is, to my mind, an excellent trend. The question is, have other people had the same experience? I've seen the same trend. LG authors and DMs seem to have learned some lessons. Even saying that, Feign Surprise is still the best card in my Player Rewards deck. Surprise happens all too often. |
| Cardinal Teplin05-31-05, 09:43 AM | As I said before, in general the problem seems to be disappearing. However, I'm still seeing two types of problem... The first is one of the straight autosurprise variations. Monsters hiding in full cover jump out at the PCs. Monsters are placed on the map within a move distance of their cover, and combat starts from there with a straight initiative role. The word surprise is not mentioned, but the placing of the monsters simply assumes that they got it. The main problem with resolving this one is that the monsters, being in full cover, can't generally be seen before they attack, so the DM feels uncomfortable about allowing the PCs to act before them, even though that is perfectly possible under the rules. A secondary problem is that the monsters have no stated means of detecting the PCs. A listen check might be assumed, since most parties are quite noisy. However, this has the effect of punishing parties that take sensible precautions. If the party can't be heard by monsters in cover, the ambush never takes place, and the party loose out on xp and gold, due to the nature of the LG rules. The second problem I've seen, much more recently, is the vague encounter distance problem. Let's say arial creatures swoop down and attack the party. At what distance should this encounter start. There's no appreciable ground cover, and since the flying creatures are very big, spotting them is very easy. The distance could be anything from 100 feet (the nearest hill behind which the monsters could have been flying) to 2-3 miles (giving the party so much time to prepare the fight is almost over before it began). Any ideas on these? |
| kjenks05-31-05, 09:59 AM | Any ideas on these? How about this: DMs should follow the rules for encounter distances described in the DMG unless the scenario specifies otherwise. Authors should only change the encounter distances if they take those modified distances into account in EL calculations, applying the difficulty modifiers to ELs as described in the DMG. Is that too radical, asking that DMs and authors follow the rules? |
| smerwin2905-31-05, 10:33 AM | Is that too radical, asking that DMs and authors follow the rules? It isn't, as long as the rules are clear. In an underground dungeon, a troll haerd a previous battle so he knows someone is in his lair. He is hiding behind a corner of a passage that PCs are walking up, talking normally and not attempting to move silently. It's clear that the troll would still have to make a Listen check (DC 0), modified by distance. However, it is not clear at all if the PCs should get a Listen check in return. What is the proper DC for a creature not moving and trying to be silent? Move Silently does not apply because the creature is not moving. People like to point to the encounter distance table in the 3.0 DMG, but it is only useful in a few cases. Just because people are excited that they know about a rule does not mean the rule applies to all situations. I don't like "auto-surprises" any more than the next person--but sometimes the situation merits it. Granted, when every other module contains a mounted creature with spirited charge being spotted at just inside its charge range, that does get a little old and smacks off metagaming. But sometimes the bad guys have the advantage naturally, just as sometimes the PCs do. Writers should use the Spot/Listen and Hide/Move Silently rules as written, but they also need to have the flexibility to set up interesting situations in their modules. Could any of the people posting here point to their own modules that they have written to show the rest of us how to do it right? Thanks, Shawn |
| Cardinal Teplin05-31-05, 11:25 AM | It's clear that the troll would still have to make a Listen check (DC 0), modified by distance. However, it is not clear at all if the PCs should get a Listen check in return. What is the proper DC for a creature not moving and trying to be silent? Move Silently does not apply because the creature is not moving. This is a common problem - most of the autosurprise variations involve ambush - ie stationary creatures in full cover, and by the rules this is very hard to detect. People like to point to the encounter distance table in the 3.0 DMG, but it is only useful in a few cases. Just because people are excited that they know about a rule does not mean the rule applies to all situations. I don't like "auto-surprises" any more than the next person--but sometimes the situation merits it. I can think of several situations that might justify a surprise round. I can't think of any that would 'automatically' justify one (well ok, maybe one or two..). Feel free to suggest one. Scent and/or tremoursense would nullify the troll example for instance, and there are several abilities that PCs can have that would mess up almost any surprise situations. Could any of the people posting here point to their own modules that they have written to show the rest of us how to do it right? Ah.. you missed the earlier thread on the same topic that I was referring to. My whole interest in this is that I'm writing a module - or rather trying to, but am having difficulty with the descriptions of encounter set up. Short of including a map with every possible fight, which I'd rather avoid, I need to find a way of describing encounters that doesn't take huge acres of space and make adventures hard to read, while at the same time having monsters using intelligent tactics, while at the same time avoiding autosurprise and all it's ilk. I certainly see no reason why such an example should be drawn from something the poster has written themselves - that's just silly. Any well written excerpt will do - preferably from an expired adventure. |
| smerwin2905-31-05, 12:03 PM | This is a common problem - most of the autosurprise variations involve ambush - ie stationary creatures in full cover, and by the rules this is very hard to detect. I can think of several situations that might justify a surprise round. I can't think of any that would 'automatically' justify one (well ok, maybe one or two..). Feel free to suggest one. Scent and/or tremoursense would nullify the troll example for instance, and there are several abilities that PCs can have that would mess up almost any surprise situations. Of course, but as you state below, the writer has only so much paper to work with, and it is impossible to take into account all the possible combinations of abilities, tactics, spells, magic items, etc. This is when the judge and the players have to work together to make the encounter play out properly. If a PC has blindsight, the judge has to take this into account, and the player may have to remind the judge repeatedly of this. If a PC's familiar is flying ahead of the party scouting, obviously the judge has to take this into account. I always tried to include the conditions for surprise in every module I have written and edited. Sometimes those conditions aren't very elegant by necessity, and they may come down to a simple Spot check versus a Hide check or Listen versus Hide, modified by distance. But at least they are there. If I have any concerns about the fairness of the encounter, I just state that neither side should get surprise based on the manner in which they encounter each other. In the end, I have to trust the judge to be able to account for any special circumstances based on the actions of the party--especially at higher levels. Lots of bad writing--be it moving PCs in boxed text against their will or anything else--needs to be managed by the judge. That said, I cannot recall ever seeing a module written where it said, "No matter what the PCs do, the bad guys get surprise." I've seen some bad encounter designs that were meant to hose the PCs, but in the end the PCs, being the heroes, just have to overcome things even though the odds are stacked against them. Shawn |
| smerwin2905-31-05, 12:10 PM | I certainly see no reason why such an example should be drawn from something the poster has written themselves - that's just silly. Any well written excerpt will do - preferably from an expired adventure. Because some of the posters seem to have a fairly strong sense that they know exactly how to manage encounters. I was assuming that since they knew how to do it correctly, they might be willing to share that with us. I threw out the simple example of the troll in the corridor to perhaps spark some discussion on what is right and wrong with encounters such as that. Shawn |
| Samwise05-31-05, 03:36 PM | ? By "set encounter" you mean one where the author specifically says something like..."any pc failing a DC 20 spot check is surprised" and no other variation is allowed, regardless of the particular skills/feats/abilities of the PCs? If so, that's a bs "auto-whatever" encounter. No, I mean set encounters where the DM/author has decided that something specific is going to happen, and not just "a wandering monster shows up". This is what already exists most of the time. Lots of "auto-surprise" DMs allow a spot check to act during a surprise round, but this is inadequate because they usually let the NPCs automatically spot the PCs. The end result is that all of the NPCs get to act during the surprise round and usually only the "scout" in the party will get to join in during the surprise round. Further, these types of DMs plop down minis as close as possible to the PCs with absolutely zero consideration of terrain type. Last Saturday, the DM tried to plunk down a Large sized monster 10 feet from my character! lol. Finally, the fair possibility of the PC's scout to surprise npcs is very very rare. An encounter should be expected to be the default distance at which the party is spotted. As such, no spot roll is required. If somehow every member of a party is hiding, then spot rolls would be needed. In such a circumstance, I would expect the players to remember that moving while hiding is at a lower speed, and that they may be unable to complete a module if they wish to sneak everywhere, particularly while traveling cross country. As for putting a large monster 10' away, that is something authors must know is typically impossible, and DMs must learn not to do. It has nothing to do with surprise. Agree. A character with a high Spot should be given the opportunity to notice foes at a distance appropriate with the type of terrain. It depends on the circumstances. Disagree. Everything needs to be specified or confusion will arise. Look at all the confusion regarding the D&D rules. omg they need a better writer to explain things. Besides, it only takes one line to give all the info like: terrain, distance, etc. It's just lazy to not do it. Vagueness fosters anxiety in players and they start thinking about rules the whole time instead of focusing on roleplaying. It happens to me all the time. I wish I could kick back and be sure the DM isn't going to make a mistake, but it's unrealistic. I too make mistakes when DMing so the way I see it, the more quick reference sheets with specific details there are the better. Does a module need to specify that a player can use a reach weapon? Or that a spellcaster can use a spell? Not at all! This is a basic rule. There is no reason a module should have to reiterate basic rules in every encounter. That should be the purpose of the Herald test. All DMs should know basic rules like those for spot and listen checks and surprise. |
| honeynuggets06-04-05, 11:27 PM | Because some of the posters seem to have a fairly strong sense that they know exactly how to manage encounters. I was assuming that since they knew how to do it correctly, they might be willing to share that with us. I threw out the simple example of the troll in the corridor to perhaps spark some discussion on what is right and wrong with encounters such as that. It isn't, as long as the rules are clear. In an underground dungeon, a troll haerd a previous battle so he knows someone is in his lair. He is hiding behind a corner of a passage that PCs are walking up, talking normally and not attempting to move silently. It's clear that the troll would still have to make a Listen check (DC 0), modified by distance. However, it is not clear at all if the PCs should get a Listen check in return. What is the proper DC for a creature not moving and trying to be silent? Move Silently does not apply because the creature is not moving. 1. Ok, a Troll hears a battle 200 feet down a tunnel. He decides not to join the fray, but to wait in ambush instead. Wierd setup first of all. Usually a party goes up against allied foes who will rush to assist against intruders. But anyway, lets say all the monsters here have an uneasy truce. 2. The Troll plops himself down behind a 90 degree bend in the tunnel for total cover and plans on Listening for when the prey is within one move action away (say 30ft) so he can move around the corner and get adjacent during the surprise round. Here is one problem. There is no way he can tell who is coming down the tunnel unless they talk. Is it PCs or is it other monsters dragging the dead PCs? What if he leaps out and it's other monsters? He'll likely get attacked. Even a human in this situation will peek because jumping out in front of things can be fatal if it's not who you expected. The answer is, a Troll, like a dog, tries to cheat. They peek around corners and through bushes to keep an eye on things even though they can hear them perfectly. When he peeks any and all PCs that can see that far get a reactive Spot check. I would rule that the Troll gets Improved Cover since he is just peeking so he gets +10 to his horrible Hide check. 3. Now, how far away is the Party when the Troll decides to peek? Seems pretty arbitrary doesn't it? Here is where a talentless DM who's PCs are spanking everything will try and gain an unfair advantage by just saying everyone is 30 feet apart. The troll will have succeeded in doing something very Rogue-like even though Trolls lack the neccessary skills to actually pull that off. Fortunately, the distance does not have to be "invented." The distance it turns out is Randomly Generated based on official rules. Even though the encounter isn't random, the distance at which it occurs is and that's enough to qualify for the rules on encounter distance. 4. Referencing my leet document: http://members.cox.net/shinyhalo/ENCOUNTERSTARTDISTANCE.pdf we see that Underground Water Formed Caves (from Underdark textbook) have a random distance of 2d4x10 feet with a DM determined percentage of vegetative life, etc. providing at some concealment. Let's say the DM rolls 40 feet. At 40 feet, the Troll peeks and all potential spotters get a chance to Spot it, the Troll gets a chance to spot any hiding rogues, etc. 5. This example terrain favors short range encounters, but the principle when applied correctly will lead to long range encounters too. Auto-surprise on the other hand ALWAYS has short range encounters. 6. Lets play devils advocate and say that this Troll doesn't care who is coming. He thinks whoever survives will at least be injured and make an easy meal. Medium armored folk are DC 5 to hear so lets say we have some heavy armor folk putting it at Listen DC 0. Add in distance modifiers of -3 and the Troll will probably hear the plate mail wearer just fine when he is at 30 ft...he'll move 30 ft around the corner to get adjacent during the surprise round and hope to win initiative. BUT, there is a fatal flaw with this Hide and Listen tactic that is only apparent when the DM disallows auto-surprise and allows scouting tactics to determine how things set up during encounters. 7. The Scout. The ideal scout has a high Hide, Move Silent, Spot, Listen and Low light vision. They position themselves 25ft in front of the Torch holder or 35 feet in front of the Sunrod holder and Hide+Move Silent+Search+Spot+Listen. So what should happen in this scenario is that at the moment when the first Troll Listen check confirms someone at 30 ft away the scout is already at the corner (remember 25ft ahead) peeking around it. The Troll gets to make a reactive Spot check to see the scout at the same instant he succeeds in his Listen check for the loud PCs. The scout also gets +10 to Hide for the Improved cover of peeking around a corner and gets to Hide because he has cover from the corner. A good scout will remain unseen in this situation and get a surprise attack on the ambushing Troll, then probably win initiative, make another surprise attack and then move back to the safety of the now aware group. Bottom line is this. If you play by the rules then large things like Trolls never surprise anyone but "scout-less" parties. The only thing that should have a chance to surprise a scout blessed party is a dedicated rogue type with the appropriate skills. Unfortunately, most DMs have a hard time grasping the dynamics of how encounters happen. They prefer to cling to simple "set" encounters were they just plop down minis where the module tells them to and torpedoes away! Now you will hear some people complain about the examples I just gave, but most likely they will not detail how they would handle this troll example of yours. |
| Samwise06-05-05, 12:10 AM | Two problems: First, rolling a random distance means some parties may get a huge advantage, while others get jumped no matter. If the DM rolls 20 feet, then that party gets surprised automaticall because the troll jumps out at 30 feet. Meanwhile another DM rolls 80 feet, and that party gets to buff for 2 rounds before the troll shows up. Second, you are assuming the troll cares about rushing up. Instead, why wouldn't the troll wait until they are close enough that it can take a 5 foot step and attack in the surprise round? So now your scout gets no chance to see or hear anything until he rounds the corner and is right next to the troll. If he gets spotted at that range and doesn't win initiative, he is in for a world of hurt. |
| King Kashue06-05-05, 12:55 AM | Two problems: First, rolling a random distance means some parties may get a huge advantage, while others get jumped no matter. If the DM rolls 20 feet, then that party gets surprised automaticall because the troll jumps out at 30 feet. Meanwhile another DM rolls 80 feet, and that party gets to buff for 2 rounds before the troll shows up. Second, you are assuming the troll cares about rushing up. Instead, why wouldn't the troll wait until they are close enough that it can take a 5 foot step and attack in the surprise round? So now your scout gets no chance to see or hear anything until he rounds the corner and is right next to the troll. If he gets spotted at that range and doesn't win initiative, he is in for a world of hurt. Most folks here aren't talking about a random encounter distance (I don't think anyone is actually)...We're talking about setting encounter distance based on Spot checks as the DMG states you should... |
| Samwise06-05-05, 01:20 AM | Most folks here aren't talking about a random encounter distance (I don't think anyone is actually)...We're talking about setting encounter distance based on Spot checks as the DMG states you should... Unfortunately that is not what the DMG states you should. As I've said repeatedly. Page 22 Starting An Encounter An encounter can begin in one of three situations. * One side becomes aware of the other and thus can act first. * Both sides become aware of each other at the time time. * Some, but not all, creatures on or both side becomes aware of the other side. When you decide that it is possible for either side to become of the other, use Spot Checks, Listen checks, sight ranges, and so on to determine which of the three above cases comes into play. Although it's good to give characters some chance to detect a coming encounter, ultimately it's you who decides when the first round begins, and where each side is when it does. Now I'm not sure how much clearer it can be than that. The DM makes the final decision. So insisting that random die rolls have to be used is not doing what the DMG states. |
| King Kashue06-05-05, 01:05 PM | Unfortunately that is not what the DMG states you should. As I've said repeatedly. Page 22 Starting An Encounter An encounter can begin in one of three situations. * One side becomes aware of the other and thus can act first. * Both sides become aware of each other at the time time. * Some, but not all, creatures on or both side becomes aware of the other side. When you decide that it is possible for either side to become of the other, use Spot Checks, Listen checks, sight ranges, and so on to determine which of the three above cases comes into play. Although it's good to give characters some chance to detect a coming encounter, ultimately it's you who decides when the first round begins, and where each side is when it does. Now I'm not sure how much clearer it can be than that. The DM makes the final decision. So insisting that random die rolls have to be used is not doing what the DMG states. Again, no one is saying using random die rolls...If you think using spot checks to set up encounter distance is random, you need to look up the definition of random... And actually, the DMG does state die rolls are to come into play, those would be the Spot and Listen Checks A concealed enemy has a hide check...That is opposed by a spot check...The spot check is modified by distance (+1 to the DC for every 10 feet)... If an enemy in cover has a hide check of 29, and the best spot in the party is 26, well then, you start the encounter whereever you want (i.e., whereeever the enemy wants)... However, if the best spot in the party is a 34, then by the rules in PHB, the character spots the hiding enemy 60 feet from the spot he's hiding (since it's an opposed roll, and he met the DC of Hide check +6, 10 feet for each of the +6 modifier)...The encounter begins at a 60 foot distance and the skills of both the party and the creature are accounted for... Now, if there are other factors, you account for them...If you crest a hill 40 feet away from where the enemy is hiding, then obviously you can't spot him 60 feet away (since a hill is in the way) so you shorten the encounter distance...And if he's invisible, then you add +20 to his hide roll (per the spell and the skill descriptions), but you still give a spot check, because there are plenty of characters (rangers and druids in particular) who have spot checks in the +30-40 range and can see hiding invisible creatures... But no matter how it's set up, there is a mechanic to deal with encounter distance, and what the DMG is saying is to use the mechanics as applied to the situation... When a module writer has 4 large creatures pop out of the bushes, 10 feet away from the party without allowing for spot checks, then the author has screwed up... |
| kjenks06-05-05, 08:04 PM | When a module writer has 4 large creatures pop out of the bushes, 10 feet away from the party without allowing for spot checks, then the author has screwed up... The scenario rarely states that the party gets no Spot check. This kind of situation does arise, but in my opinion, it's a DM error, not an author error. I've encountered many DMs who give too few Spot checks, too. If there's one rogue hiding, each and every party member gets one Spot check to find him. If there are two rogues hiding, each and every party member gets one Spot check to find the first one and each and every party member gets one Spot check to find find the second one. Five rogues hiding, each and every party member gets five Spot checks. Et cetera. That's a lot of dice rolling, and some DMs don't want to do the work, but that's how the rules work. |
| Samwise06-05-05, 08:44 PM | Again, no one is saying using random die rolls...If you think using spot checks to set up encounter distance is random, you need to look up the definition of random... Please read the entire thread. 4. Referencing my leet document: http://members.cox.net/shinyhalo/ENCOUNTERSTARTDISTANCE.pdf we see that Underground Water Formed Caves (from Underdark textbook) have a random distance of 2d4x10 feet with a DM determined percentage of vegetative life, etc. providing at some concealment. Let's say the DM rolls 40 feet. At 40 feet, the Troll peeks and all potential spotters get a chance to Spot it, the Troll gets a chance to spot any hiding rogues, etc. Again, people are saying to use random die rolls. |
| King Kashue06-05-05, 11:14 PM | Please read the entire thread. Again, people are saying to use random die rolls. Sorry, let me clarify, no one advocating the proper use of spot checks in mods and the procedures outlined in the DMG is advocating random distances...Honeycombs there with his non-core sourcebooks not withstanding... Teplin, Herr Jenks,southernskies, they're all saying use the spot and listen checks to set the distance as described in the skill description... |
| King Kashue06-05-05, 11:18 PM | The scenario rarely states that the party gets no Spot check. This kind of situation does arise, but in my opinion, it's a DM error, not an author error. I've encountered many DMs who give too few Spot checks, too. If there's one rogue hiding, each and every party member gets one Spot check to find him. If there are two rogues hiding, each and every party member gets one Spot check to find the first one and each and every party member gets one Spot check to find find the second one. Five rogues hiding, each and every party member gets five Spot checks. Et cetera. That's a lot of dice rolling, and some DMs don't want to do the work, but that's how the rules work. And as others have stated before, that is how you interpret the rules to work... Separate hide checks for each hiding person, plus a single spot check from each party member is also a perfectly legitimate interpretation of the rules for reactive spot checks (active spotting would be different)... |
| Samwise06-05-05, 11:43 PM | Sorry, let me clarify, no one advocating the proper use of spot checks in mods and the procedures outlined in the DMG is advocating random distances...Honeycombs there with his non-core sourcebooks not withstanding... Teplin, Herr Jenks,southernskies, they're all saying use the spot and listen checks to set the distance as described in the skill description... That's what I've said as well, albeit within limits. I have always supported allowing skill checks. What I don't support is changing modules, or the general rules, just because certain DMs refuse to learn the Core rules. |
| Cardinal Teplin06-06-05, 01:53 AM | The scenario rarely states that the party gets no Spot check. This kind of situation does arise, but in my opinion, it's a DM error, not an author error. Not directly perhaps, but it will state that monsters, having ambushed the party, should then be set up in a position relative to the party that could only have been reached if they had moved from cover during a surprise round. Sometimes this is quite direct: "Monsters will ambush the party. Party members making a DC 15 spot check will be able to act during the surprise round." Note no mention of the monsters having to spot the players... Or the placement approach: "Monsters start within reach of party members, targeting spellcasters and unarmoured targets over armoured characters and animals..." No spot check for either side, surprise is assumed. Now it may well be that DMs are supposed to add spot checks into this kind of situation, and overrule the apparent intention of the text. It may even be that this was the intention of the writer. However, the result is still an adventure that implies autosurprise, and thus gets run as autosurprise. The very fact that it is a very frequent DM error in itself suggests that we might be able to improve on the wording used in adventures... |
| Samwise06-06-05, 11:35 AM | Sometimes this is quite direct: "Monsters will ambush the party. Party members making a DC 15 spot check will be able to act during the surprise round." Note no mention of the monsters having to spot the players... No, but this is within the discretion of the DM. It is however an increasingly poor choice because of the abilities of a party to either hide or detect hiding enemies as noted, and should be eliminated. Perhaps adding a note as to the party detecting them prematurely. Or the placement approach: "Monsters start within reach of party members, targeting spellcasters and unarmoured targets over armoured characters and animals..." No spot check for either side, surprise is assumed. Here I disagree. I see no reason for surprise to be assumed. It merely declares the starting encounter range, and the target preference, nothing more. Spot and Listen checks should still be made to determine surprise, and initiative should still be rolled normally. If that means the monsters are flat-footed, so be it. That is the default. Not allowing a chance to avoid an ambush must always be directly stated in the text, otherwise that chance always exists. That is the default rule. |
| Cardinal Teplin06-06-05, 02:12 PM | Here I disagree. I see no reason for surprise to be assumed. It merely declares the starting encounter range, and the target preference, nothing more. Spot and Listen checks should still be made to determine surprise, and initiative should still be rolled normally. If that means the monsters are flat-footed, so be it. That is the default. Not allowing a chance to avoid an ambush must always be directly stated in the text, otherwise that chance always exists. That is the default rule. This interpretation assumes, often contrary to the flavour text given in the adventure, that rather than leaping out of from cover the monsters somehow 'just appeared' in the midst of the party. Having huge creatures suddenly appear at a range of 10 feet is stretching the authority of the DM. The rules state that the combat starts when the two sides become of aware of eachother. Short of magical elevators, how do you explain the sudden appearance of the monsters at their starting location? I appreciate that you're trying to fit every situation into the standard rules, but I think this, if anything, makes the situation worse. |
| Samwise06-06-05, 03:00 PM | This interpretation assumes, often contrary to the flavour text given in the adventure, that rather than leaping out of from cover the monsters somehow 'just appeared' in the midst of the party. Having huge creatures suddenly appear at a range of 10 feet is stretching the authority of the DM. The rules state that the combat starts when the two sides become of aware of eachother. Short of magical elevators, how do you explain the sudden appearance of the monsters at their starting location? I appreciate that you're trying to fit every situation into the standard rules, but I think this, if anything, makes the situation worse. That is indeed an author/editor problem, and something that needs to be corrected on their part. Part of that problem stems from advancing creatures for higher APLs, forgetting that they may change in size, and that change may make the basic situation anything from untenable to ouright absurd. And I'm not trying to make everything fit into the standard rules as written. I'm trying to help people understand what the standard rules are first. That way when changes are demanded, they can be presented with a full understanding of said rules. Demanding a change in something because you don't think it is right when in fact it is detracts from the value of other requests. Its the Boy Who Cried Wolf syndrome. Make sure the complaints are based on violations of the actual rules, not someone's mistaken impression of what the rules should be. |
| honeynuggets06-13-05, 10:04 PM | Two problems: First, rolling a random distance means some parties may get a huge advantage, while others get jumped no matter. If the DM rolls 20 feet, then that party gets surprised automaticall because the troll jumps out at 30 feet. Meanwhile another DM rolls 80 feet, and that party gets to buff for 2 rounds before the troll shows up. Second, you are assuming the troll cares about rushing up. Instead, why wouldn't the troll wait until they are close enough that it can take a 5 foot step and attack in the surprise round? So now your scout gets no chance to see or hear anything until he rounds the corner and is right next to the troll. If he gets spotted at that range and doesn't win initiative, he is in for a world of hurt. First, you are exaggerating. Using the encounter distances (IN THE CORE DMG for whoever said I am using non-core books) based on terrain type getting a result of 20ft in the same terrain as a result of 80ft with everything else being equal is as common as winning a small lotto. Further, what Troll takes 2 rounds to travel 80ft anyway? Second, it is obvious that you don't understand how line of sight works. If we have a 90 degree corner...O=hallway, X=solid rock, T=Troll OTOO OXXX OXXX If a scout(S) who is Hiding, Moving Silently reaches this position... OTOO SXXX OXXX The scout has line of sight to the Troll, but can still Hide due to cover. A good scout will remain hidden from the Troll at this point. Sneak attack in a surprise round, maybe Sneak attack again after the surprise round then move back to the party. This is assuming the Troll was just making Listen checks. If the Troll peeks around the corner the whole time then everyone gets a Spot check at the maximum limit of their sight which can be very far away. Now, if the Troll actually made a Listen check that beat a good scout's Move Silent check then the Troll could pop out 5ft from the scout, but good luck with that Listen check. What I am really hoping now is that the DMG II will clarify some of this. I have seen a related disturbing trend in LG adventures. There have been a LOT of monsters with the ability to "see" into the material plane while remaining undetectable in their own plane by various mechanisms. This appears to be some cheesy way to continue auto-surprises. I think the whole process of writing adventures has become so poltical and steeped in bureaucracy that the "gene pool" of writers has stagnated and they have lost the ability to create a challenging encounter without resorting to cheesy tactics like: auto-surprises and obviously overpowered abilities. I was in an APL 4 adventure where the baddies busted out a 6th level spell. Not spellcaster level 6 mind you, but an 6th level spell. |
| Samwise06-14-05, 12:43 AM | First, you obviously don't know much about the various probabilities of certain things. Using 2 4-sided dice, the chance of rolling a 2 is 1-in-16, while the chance of rolling an 8 is the same 1-in-16. With regionals easily playing over 300 times, around 20 tables will have one extreme, and another 20 tables the other exteme. Indeed, at a large con where 16 tables can run over 2 slots, you are likely to get one of each during a single day of the con. But perhaps you had some other sort of lotteries in mind. Second, it is obvious you don't understand how synergy affects certain abilities. To start with, our troll has reach, which he definitely intends to use to his advantage. So let's modify your diagram for that: OOTOO SXXXX OXXXX Well, it looks like the scout can't spot the troll any more as his line of sight just went away. So he'll have to take that next step and be completely exposed as he won't have any cover or concealment and won't be able to hide. It looks like he is dinner. Of course, synergy works both ways, so to be honest, our troll is large, so that really looks like this: OOTTO OOTTO SXXXX OXXXX Dang. The troll is visible again. I guess maybe the scout will get away with it. Of course, he better have a missile weapon, as he can't 5' step and melee from there. Hey wait, that's right, the 5' step. I think maybe our friend the troll has read about those too. So: OOOTT OOOTT SXXXX OXXXX Dang, out of sight again. So the scout definitely has to expose himself. Of course I'm sure the troll could be surprised here because he still hasn't heard the scout approaching. Except our troll has been checking several rules lately, and remembers he also has scent. That means he gave a good sniff, and detected that scout approaching a good move back. Which not only means time to move back if needed (which is really isn't), but it also means he can't be surprised since he knows something, scout or otherwise, is coming. And that means he'll be having scout for dinner. Now granted, that's a pretty specific example. A creature with reach and scent, having a corner to hide behind. The point is, it demonstrates just how many factors there are in an encounter. And it's why you can't just say something is against the rules and have it always be true because one example shows otherwise. It is very possible for a large creature to show up in charge range of a party member without having been seen before, if you take every single special ability, feat, spell, and environmental modifier into account. |
| honeynuggets06-14-05, 10:55 AM | Ok. The odds aren't that hard, but the difference between 20ft and 80ft is only 1 round anyway. That is easily stomached. Second, it is obvious you don't understand how synergy affects certain abilities. To start with, our troll has reach, which he definitely intends to use to his advantage. So let's modify your diagram for that: OOTOO SXXXX OXXXX Well, it looks like the scout can't spot the troll any more as his line of sight just went away. Wow. You really don't know line of sight. Even in this case the (S) has both line of sight AND line of attack. The Troll has cover (+4) from the scout and vice versa. Lines that run parallel to edges are not considered blocked. There is a clear illustration showing this in D&D book. Don't make me upload it. Of course, synergy works both ways, so to be honest, our troll is large, so that really looks like this: So: OOOTT OOOTT SXXXX OXXXX Dang, out of sight again. So the scout definitely has to expose himself. Wrong again. Lines drawn from both the top left and top right corner of the (S)couts square run parallel to the wall edge and are not blocked. The scout can make ranged attacks from this position. But, you are right about the Troll taking up four squares. Of course I'm sure the troll could be surprised here because he still hasn't heard the scout approaching. Except our troll has been checking several rules lately, and remembers he also has scent. That means he gave a good sniff, and detected that scout approaching a good move back. Which not only means time to move back if needed (which is really isn't), but it also means he can't be surprised since he knows something, scout or otherwise, is coming. And that means he'll be having scout for dinner. I didn't consider the Troll's Scent ability, but I will now. The Troll automatically Scents the presence of the (S) at 30 ft down the hall and I'm sure that scents can move diagonally around corners. The Troll knows the direction the scent is coming from (down the hall). The Troll can pinpoint the scent when it is 5ft away(adjacent). The scout still thwarts the Troll ambush, but you are right about the (S)cout not getting a surprise round due to the Troll being Aware. Here's why. OOOTT = No scent pinpoint since (S) is 15ft away. OOOTT SXXXX = Both have Cover, line of sight and line of attack for ranged OXXXX OOTTO = No scent pinpoint since (S) is 10ft away. OOTTO OXXXX SXXXX = Both have Cover, line of sight and line of attack for ranged OTTO = No scent pinpoint since (S) is very far away. OTTO OXXX OXXX OXXX OXXX OXXX OXXX OXXX OXXX SXXX = Both have Cover, line of sight and line of attack for ranged from many many squares away. I stopped counting after around 10 squares... Conclusion: In the first two setups the (S)cout can't surprise round the Troll, but he can still get off a sneak attack in normal initiative. Here is how it breaks down: 1. Troll is Aware of nearby smelly foe, but can't see them until (S)cout is at position S. At this time both make Spot checks. A good scout will remain hidden at this point. Win or lose initiative, the Troll can't attack what he can't pinpoint. All he knows is that there is a foe within 30ft down the hall. Let's say the (S)cout loses initiative. The Troll's best option is to claim a Readied 5ft step toward anything that attacks him plus an Attack as a standard action if within melee range. In either setup a 5ft step puts him within melee range of the (S)cout who still has cover. The (S)cout however should be able to determine from looking at the Troll that it's arms are exceptionally long and can Reach far so the (S)cout's best option is to free action signal the party making them Aware and letting them roll Init, Move action head back to a safe spot near the party, Standard Action hurl an oil flask so that the splash coats the Troll around the corner. Troll gets his triggered Readied action takes 5ft step, has nobody to attack, but still has cover and now line of sight to group and vice versa. Then rest of initiatives go. It is very possible for a large creature to show up in charge range of a party member without having been seen before, if you take every single special ability, feat, spell, and environmental modifier into account. It is very Difficult for a large creature to show up in charge range of a party with a standard scouting plan. But keep fighting for those writers who can't come up with a challenging encounter without resorting to being cheesy. There ARE some ways a Troll can ambush a party, but Writers should be forced to be creative about it. Breaking rules only makes players feel cheated and angry. Ironically, an encounter which kills or heavily injures groups fairly earns respect for a DM and Writer for playing fair but clever. Now I'm just throwing something out there quick so I might be wrong about a rule, but here is something off the top of my head on how I would have a Troll ambush a party. Trolls have regeneration 5 so a good ambush encounter could be something like: 1. DM- "You need to travel for three days through the Swamps of Turmoil to reach the lost Temple of Quexacotl. You can't see very far due to undergrowth and there are bogs everywhere and very little dry land." 2. PC- "We stay OUT of the bogs. How far can we see?" 3. DM- "There are no dry paths through a swamp. You will have to swim often. The distance you can see varies from about 20ft to 80ft away." 4. PC- "Does my Bardic Knowledge check 18 reveal any info about this swamp?" 5. DM- "Yes. There are rumors of Trolls, Treants, and Hags living there." 6. PC Ranger - "Ok. We go in. I stay 20ft in front of the group moving from undergrowth to undergrowth in order to Hide. 15. I Move Silently too. I send my Hawk companion flying 100ft above to warn me of danger." 7. DM- "Ok. After two days you are drenched in a mixture of sweat and bog juice. You notice your hair has a green tint to it. Metagame Info - There are lots of Trolls in this swamp, and anyone passing through here is bound to run into one of their ambushes. But they are a clever bunch. They sit under the murkiest water of bogs drowning and then regenerating until something passes within 5 ft disturbing the water. Treat as Heavy Fog: Can only see adjacent (5ft away) and adjacent has 20% miss chance. Over the course of three days travel, the Ranger eventually passes within 5 ft of one of these lurking Trolls. It's unavoidable since there is no way to travel through a Swamp without going through bogs. 8. DM- The Troll becomes aware of the adjacent Ranger due to water movement, splashing, but not by sight or scent. Rolls Troll Hide check 10-4size=6 "Ranger, roll me a Spot check." 9. PC Ranger- "Ok. 11 for me and 21 for my Hawk." 10. DM- "The Hawk doesn't get a check, it's too high up. But, you see something lurking under the murky water 5 ft away. Roll initiative everybody. Ranger, you can act during the surprise round." And there you have a Large creature ambushing a scout by the rules. Clever or powerful players can avoid this ambush by flying etc. |
| Timlagor06-14-05, 11:22 AM | Wow. You really don't know line of sight. Even in this case the (S) has both line of sight AND line of attack. The Troll has cover (+4) from the scout and vice versa. Lines that run parallel to edges are not considered blocked. There is a clear illustration showing this in D&D book. Don't make me upload it. Although the Troll would indeed have mellee cover, it doesn't have cover from the Scout's ranged attacks. Conversely the Scout does have cover against both mellee and ranged attacks. |
| Samwise06-14-05, 12:01 PM | So the troll simply moves up when he does scent the scout, placing himself within 5'. He doesn't attack during the surprise round, but the scount must now have tumble and win initiative or be subject to a full attack or an AOO from the troll. Or the troll steps back another 5' so the scout can't spot him, and charges the moment the scout rounds the corner and the troll doesn't need to be within 5' of him to know where he is. (I was trying to avoid a charge scenario, but there it is if it makes you happy.) However, your examples are much better this time, with only 1 missed rule, 1 forgotten modifier, and 1 ruling I'd make differently. 7 - You can't regenerate drowing damage. The troll has to keep his snoot above water. 8 - You forgot the modifier for the troll having "improved cover", giving it +10 to the Hide check. 10 - Unless the troll were more than 5' deep, I would still give the hawk a chance to spot it, as the troll is at the edge of the special effect. However, you would need to subtract for the distance. -10 for 100' I believe. But yes, that is a much better example, and now you are getting into the spirit of understanding the plotting of such things. I would also note that most players would threaten me with a severe mocking for assuming they just casually approached such an area of bog without giving it a prepatory smackdown or probing. ("most players" = "those with experience in LG surprise hose overs and standard set ups") And I'd expect a thorough complaint about a high survival roll not modifying the situation as well. However, I will again note just how much awareness of the rules all of this requires, as well as how much of a background explanation it needs to properly set up. If a DM fails to remember, or refuses to acknowledge, any number of modifiers and support elements, particularly giving the players a spot check, then the whole encounter receives an improper boost to difficulty. |
| Cardinal Teplin06-14-05, 12:25 PM | That is indeed an author/editor problem, and something that needs to be corrected on their part. Part of that problem stems from advancing creatures for higher APLs, forgetting that they may change in size, and that change may make the basic situation anything from untenable to ouright absurd. So I've been told several times. I've not seen it much myself, so maybe it's a feature of regions or metaregions other than my own. Certainly on the rare occasions when I do see it, I wouldn't count it as an autosurprise problem. In short, I check for and discount such situations, so my from point of view it isn't part of the problem at all. I'm talking about monsters suddenly appearing in melee range at the start of the fight, often at 10ft or less with no possibility of being hidden at the position where they start. Now you could say that this is a 'monster elevator' problem, or you could say that the monsters are automatically surprising the party, and then moving into position during the surprise round. By either definition, it shouldn't be happening. It does seem to be rarer than it used to be, which is a good thing, whether it is happening because modules are being phrased differently, or because DMs are becoming bolder in overruling situations implied or stated in the module. And I'm not trying to make everything fit into the standard rules as written. I'm trying to help people understand what the standard rules are first. Not everything, no. You're suggesting that certain situations I have mentioned do actually fit within the rules. I disagree with you that they do, not because I disagree with your interpretation, but because I feel that the interpretation you suggest assumes that the DM/author is doing something we all agree would be bad. Take the situation of monsters hiding underneath the ground, waiting to ambush PCs above. They hear/sense the PCs, rise up out of their hidden holes, and attack. Now the module arranges this specifying that all the monsters are placed at ground level within 'full attack range' of the PCs, and then initative is rolled as normal. This is a nice simple way to run the combat, and avoids the problems of holes in the battlefield, cover from being half-covered in dirt, etc. We could say that the monsters are magically 'elevatored' into position. Since the smallest of these creatures is large, at any APL, they are moving at least 10ft while the PCs just stand there. It is, as you point out, within the authority of the DM to do this, but it's not very sensible. To my mind, it isn't very polite to assume that the writer is doing this, because it reflect poorly on them. I'd rather believe that they are simply assuming that the monsters, immobile and in full cover, are almost certainly going to surprise the PCs, and that they will spend the surprise round moving into position to attack. This matches the flavour text and the description much better, keeps things simple, and might appear on the face of it to be the best option. I strongly suspect that the latter is what was intended, but either explanation will do. The problem comes when PCs who can detect underground creatures come along, and the encounter is written to start after they have emerged. While you seem to think that the referee at the table has the authority to alter the adventure to fit the rules (and I would agree), many referees and players disagree with us. Inexperienced referees are often reluctant to do so even if they feel that they are allowed to, assuming that the writer knows the rules better than they, and perhaps not realsing the incredible feat of prescience that would be needed for the writer to account for the abilities of every table. In other words, I feel the problem, as far as it still exists, is one of drafting. I don't agree with honeynuggets that the writers are simply being lazy or uncreative. But I do feel that, with clearer wording around encounters, we wouldn't keep on running into the same problem. Ultimately it doesn't really matter if it is being caused by writers, referees, WOTC, cheesy players, sunspots or alien mind control. Clarifying the encounter text would still be the easiest way to control the problem. Demanding a change in something because you don't think it is right when in fact it is detracts from the value of other requests. Its the Boy Who Cried Wolf syndrome. Make sure the complaints are based on violations of the actual rules, not someone's mistaken impression of what the rules should be. It doesn't really matter if it is a violation of the rules by writers, or a mistake by DMs that happens with great frequency. Either way detracts from the game. Either way, the easiest way to fix it is to clarify the text of encounters, so it doesn't keep on happening in games. |
| honeynuggets06-14-05, 12:40 PM | Although the Troll would indeed have mellee cover, it doesn't have cover from the Scout's ranged attacks. Conversely the Scout does have cover against both mellee and ranged attacks. Oops you are right. |
| honeynuggets06-14-05, 01:09 PM | So the troll simply moves up when he does scent the scout, placing himself within 5'. He doesn't attack during the surprise round, but the scount must now have tumble and win initiative or be subject to a full attack or an AOO from the troll. I'm not surprised that you didn't include a diagram of how this is supposed to work because it doesn't make any sense. Or the troll steps back another 5' so the scout can't spot him, and charges the moment the scout rounds the corner and the troll doesn't need to be within 5' of him to know where he is. (I was trying to avoid a charge scenario, but there it is if it makes you happy.) Step back all you want. As soon as the scout is here: OOOOOOTTOOO OOOOOOTTOOO OSXXXXXXXXXX OOXXXXXXXXXX He has line of sight, line of ranged attack, AND the Troll has no cover. However, your examples are much better this time, with only 1 missed rule, 1 forgotten modifier, and 1 ruling I'd make differently. 7 - You can't regenerate drowing damage. The troll has to keep his snoot above water. Ah well, I thought there might be a rule about drowning damage, but I threw the example out anyway since drowning has little to do with the main thread subject. 8 - You forgot the modifier for the troll having "improved cover", giving it +10 to the Hide check. Well, I'll applaud this one. There is one sentence in the DMG saying that people in at least chest deep get Improved Cover. Good that makes the Troll bog ambush work better. That's a pretty obscure rule to find hehe. 10 - Unless the troll were more than 5' deep, I would still give the hawk a chance to spot it, as the troll is at the edge of the special effect. However, you would need to subtract for the distance. -10 for 100' I believe.. Correct. The DMG says that Fog obscures all sight beyond 5 feet. That means you need an entire 5ft square with Fog-like effect between you and an observer to claim total concealment. So the Troll would have to be 10ft under water. Lol, I dunno give him a hollowed out bamboo chute to breath through. |
| Samwise06-14-05, 01:45 PM | For the troll moving up: Encounter Begins: OOOOOTT OOOOOTT SXXXXXX OXXXXXX Troll moves during surprise: OTTOO OTTOO SXXXX OXXXX With reach, the troll gets the scout. And if the troll needs to hide, it can squeeze and stay out of sight. OOOOTT SXXXXX OXXXXX The incredible disappearing troll! (Or extend backwards as needed.) However, the troll can still weasel around these LOS rules. First, we move it back up, and it squeezes a bit: OOOO OOTT OXXX SXXX Now when the scout advances, he obviously "sees" the troll, despite it having cover: OOOO OOTT SXXX OXXX However, the troll knows he is coming, so we go to initiative in the Surprise round. The Troll does have cover from ranged attacks if needed, since cover for that is determined if LOS from ANY vertice is blocked. The fun thing is, our troll friend gets to 5' step up and stop squeezing: OTTO OTTO SXXX OXXX At which point, for melee, it can trace ANY blocked LOS to the scout, meaning the scout gets no cover, and can be spotted automatically, even if scent would make that meaningless. And so the scout gets smacked. Since the troll can do the same using reach if the scout moves 5' back: OTTO OTTO OXXX SXXX The scout still needs tumble to get away from the troll, depending on initiative of course. Then we have considerations of the width of the passage the scout is moving down, how far ahead he is scouting, what armor the party tank is wearing, whether he has a reach or ranged weapon, and all that fun stuff which can mean scout can still be on the menu. And of course, a door, or curtain can change everything even more neatly. (DM Hint: Make the player's open a door. it is a great way to enhance surprise situations. Just remember that it is a move action to do so, and that it applies both ways.) Correct. The DMG says that Fog obscures all sight beyond 5 feet. That means you need an entire 5ft square with Fog-like effect between you and an observer to claim total concealment. So the Troll would have to be 10ft under water. Lol, I dunno give him a hollowed out bamboo chute to breath through. But then he can neither see, nor smell, the party approaching. :D |
| honeynuggets06-14-05, 03:41 PM | For the troll moving up: Encounter Begins: OOOOOTT OOOOOTT SXXXXXX OXXXXXX Nah. You're not getting LOS still. It's a common misunderstanding. In the above setting. The (S)cout has: line of sight to EVERY square the troll occupies not just the top two. The scout has Cover to Hide, +4AC, and ranged attack line of sight. The Troll has NO Cover here. So, if we begin the encounter here then the Troll probably will fail to Spot the (S)cout even though he scents that he is within 30ft and what general direction he is in. And if the troll needs to hide, it can squeeze and stay out of sight. OOOOTT SXXXXX OXXXXX The incredible disappearing troll! (Or extend backwards as needed.) No amount of squeezing or backing up can take the Troll out of the Scout's line of sight once the scout reaches the corner like this. Now when the scout advances, he obviously "sees" the troll, despite it having cover: OOOO OOTT SXXX OXXX However, the troll knows he is coming, so we go to initiative in the Surprise round. The Troll does have cover from ranged attacks if needed, since cover for that is determined if LOS from ANY vertice is blocked. You must be an auto-surprise nightmare. Squeeze all you want. It doesn't change anything. At this position the (S)cout has Cover and is Hidden. Troll will likely fail his Spot check. The Troll knows he is coming, but can't pinpoint his location so he could be 30ft away for all the Troll knows. There can be no Surprise round unless the (S)cout miraculously fails a Spot check to see the Troll at this point. The Troll has NO cover from ranged attacks here. Lines running parallel to edges are not considered blocked. There is an official illustration so this isn't something I am just making up. It's how you can "shoot around a corner" while using it for cover. Think about it. The fun thing is, our troll friend gets to 5' step up and stop squeezing: OTTO OTTO SXXX OXXX At which point, for melee, it can trace ANY blocked LOS to the scout, meaning the scout gets no cover, and can be spotted automatically, even if scent would make that meaningless. And so the scout gets smacked. First, it can't take a 5ft step and react to the scout until it has him pinpointed because it doesn't know where the scout is. It can't pinpoint him without making a Spot vs Hide check. If the Troll was initially in this position, then everyone including the scout would have gotten a Spot check to see him a long time ago. I know you are saying he just got there, but I'm saying he can't know the exact time to take that 5ft step because he can't pinpoint the Scout's location based on Scent. Do a refresher course on LOS. |
| Docrailgun06-14-05, 04:16 PM | It seems like it'd be a lot easier to write the perfect adventure than complain about poor writers. I have seen a related disturbing trend in LG adventures. There have been a LOT of monsters with the ability to "see" into the material plane while remaining undetectable in their own plane by various mechanisms. This appears to be some cheesy way to continue auto-surprises. I think the whole process of writing adventures has become so poltical and steeped in bureaucracy that the "gene pool" of writers has stagnated and they have lost the ability to create a challenging encounter without resorting to cheesy tactics like: auto-surprises and obviously overpowered abilities. I was in an APL 4 adventure where the baddies busted out a 6th level spell. Not spellcaster level 6 mind you, but an 6th level spell. |
| honeynuggets06-14-05, 05:50 PM | It seems like it'd be a lot easier to write the perfect adventure than complain about poor writers. The thing is, Living Greyhawk, and Living Force for that matter, are as steeped in bureaucracy as the U.S. Government. It literally takes them months to a year to do the smallest things. Once, I decided I was going to see for myself how hard it would be to create a Ready-To-Download LG adventure. Some published adventure writers mentioned that they had worked on theirs for months to a year and didn't even know if it would get played. I was done in one week AND mine had nice maps too. I gave it to a LG spin-off group that was considering writing a series of adventures to use if they wanted, but I haven't followed up on it. I just don't have the patience to deal with slow moving bureaucratic organizations. Was it perfect? No. Was it better than the average adventure I have played? Imho yes. So my focus now is just to try and make the people who get to write LG adventures at least follow the rules and make it easy for DMs to follow them by including more details about how encounters should be handled. |
| Jesse Heinig06-14-05, 07:14 PM | The one that gets me is the blatant cheats to set up ambush/surprise rounds - like ogres with no Hide skill apparently beating a Spot check of 28 with someone who is only 10' away. Yeah. Likely. (More like, nigh-impossible.) |
| Samwise06-14-05, 08:08 PM | Do a refresher course on LOS. Actually it is a refresher course on basic geometry. But now considering that, I do see that yes, it is impossible to block LOS around a corner like that at any distance. (Like, right angle and triangles dude.) Of course that just convinces me of how poorly written and absurd that rule is, but of course that doesn't matter. The Troll has NO cover from ranged attacks here. Lines running parallel to edges are not considered blocked. There is an official illustration so this isn't something I am just making up. It's how you can "shoot around a corner" while using it for cover. Think about it. Where is the illustration? I can't seem to find it. And yes, it is, reasonably, logical. Of course fully logical would be to draw LOS from the center of an occupied hex, not any corner. In the absence of that, we are left scrambling for actual physical examples. As for shooting around a corner like that, to do so exposes you. So at most the scout gets off one surprise shot, then the troll is on him. First, it can't take a 5ft step and react to the scout until it has him pinpointed because it doesn't know where the scout is. It can't pinpoint him without making a Spot vs Hide check. If the Troll was initially in this position, then everyone including the scout would have gotten a Spot check to see him a long time ago. I know you are saying he just got there, but I'm saying he can't know the exact time to take that 5ft step because he can't pinpoint the Scout's location based on Scent. That doesn't mean he can't act, merely that he must act blind, similar to PCs winning initiative in a non-surprise but hidden, or not revealing action surprise situation. |
| Simpi06-15-05, 03:02 AM | I was done in one week AND mine had nice maps too. I gave it to a LG spin-off group that was considering writing a series of adventures to use if they wanted, but I haven't followed up on it. I just don't have the patience to deal with slow moving bureaucratic organizations. Was it perfect? No. Was it better than the average adventure I have played? Imho yes. Ok, I bite. First of all, each region can only have 8 (or 9 in special circumstances) scenarios a year. If you just write a scenario before contacting Triad then your changes of getting published are slim. Second, each Triad needs to sanction the module if it fits their region. Third, Circle takes two months before they publish the module in which time they look over it for unsuitable content, etc. Yet this 'slow moving bureaucracy' manages to put out over a hundred scenarios each year. At least in our region the editing process has never taken more than a week or two. It's always been more of a case of author not delivering the module in the first place. If you want to put your module up for review, i'm sure our Triad is happy to do that. S.H, Ahlissa (Naerie) webslave |
| honeynuggets06-15-05, 10:23 AM | Ok, I bite. First of all, each region can only have 8 (or 9 in special circumstances) scenarios a year. If you just write a scenario before contacting Triad then your changes of getting published are slim. This is exactly what I mean. Why is there even a limit? It makes no sense at all to limit the number of official adventures when we all know that proof reading one for balance only takes a couple days max (since writing one only takes a week). I am left to conclude that there is an ulterior motive for setting a limit though I am not familiar enough with the inner workings of this organization to figure out how they benefit from this limited number. Third, Circle takes two months before they publish the module in which time they look over it for unsuitable content, etc. Exactly my point. 2 months to proof read and balance/edit an adventure?!?! Am I the only person who thinks this is a joke? Yet this 'slow moving bureaucracy' manages to put out over a hundred scenarios each year. . A hundred scenarios total would be great if they were all available to everyone, but LG is a regional game. Most players stay in their region and are limited to the dozen adventures (some intros) for their region. That's one a month. I play or DM once a week. My local group seems to handle this by offering old adventures that I have missed, alternate campaigns, etc., but I take breaks for other games now and then so it's easy to find a mod I haven't played. Regular players must be feeling the pinch no? I'll leave my adventure where it is. I mostly wanted to see if I was wrong about how much effort writing one requires. I felt a little bad about bashing writers and the limit on adventures without having actually done one myself and when someone suggested I try it...I did. Now I can bash away guilt free. |
| Samwise06-15-05, 11:14 AM | This is exactly what I mean. Why is there even a limit? It makes no sense at all to limit the number of official adventures when we all know that proof reading one for balance only takes a couple days max (since writing one only takes a week). I am left to conclude that there is an ulterior motive for setting a limit though I am not familiar enough with the inner workings of this organization to figure out how they benefit from this limited number. Exactly my point. 2 months to proof read and balance/edit an adventure?!?! Am I the only person who thinks this is a joke? First, the modules must be submitted on time. At least half are not. Second, the modules must be formatted properly. This is getting better, but more than half were not in the first few years. Third, a spell check takes about an hour. A grammar checks takes about two hours. A gamer specific check takes three to five hours, and can trip up any basic program or editor who isn't paying attention. Fourth, the modules must be submitted with proper stat blocks. If they are, checking stat blocks takes one to eight hours, depending on how many there are. If the stat blocks are wrong, or incomplete, correcting them can take one hour to two days. Fifth, the background must be checked. Sixth, the story flow must be checked. Seventh, the rules situations must be checked. (The thing you keep complaining about.) Eighth, the believability factor of the whole thing must be checked. (Which unfortunately is usually skipped.) And now the module has been edited by the Triad, one of eight or nine for the year. Not too bad really, maybe one to three days per module, two weeks to a month. Then he can get back to organizing the next year's modules, coordinating plot development for interactives, sending out modules to people ordering them (if each module is ordered 100 times, that is over 900 modules emailed out every year), answering questions about modules already available, and coordinating with the other Triad members. Oh yeah, and doing his real job, hanging out with his family, and maybe, somehow, somewhere, doing some gaming. Now the process gets repeated with the Circle member. Another one to three days per module. Of course, he is checking over forty to forty-five modules every year. So that is at least three months just on regional modules. Oh yeah, he also has to supervise eight meta-regional modules per year. And they also usually take on some of the core modules. And still do all that other "normal person" stuff. Now if he were getting paid to do it, if it was his job for eight hours a day, five days a week, and all that, then yes, it would be a joke. As something they aren't getting paid for, doing in their spare time, it is actually rather remarkable. There is however an ulterior motive for the limit. They don't want to program more modules into the system for ordering. Yep, even if they found another person with all the time in the world for editing, it has still been stated that they are at their limit on adding more modules for ordering. That's something you need to get someone else to answer about. A hundred scenarios total would be great if they were all available to everyone, but LG is a regional game. Most players stay in their region and are limited to the dozen adventures (some intros) for their region. That's one a month. I play or DM once a week. My local group seems to handle this by offering old adventures that I have missed, alternate campaigns, etc., but I take breaks for other games now and then so it's easy to find a mod I haven't played. Regular players must be feeling the pinch no?[QUOTE] Actually most players are limited to those dozen, plus eight meta-regionals, and twenty cores. That is forty modules per year. Regular players aren't feeling any pinch. Especially if they run a game every now and then. However, even if they are, if those twelve weeks off every year, not playing once a month, is really that horrendous - too bad. They are still doing as good if not better than most home groups, which usually take a lot more time off. [QUOTEI'll leave my adventure where it is. I mostly wanted to see if I was wrong about how much effort writing one requires. I felt a little bad about bashing writers and the limit on adventures without having actually done one myself and when someone suggested I try it...I did. Now I can bash away guilt free. Well you are wrong. You don't know what it takes to get a module ready for publication after it is written. Nor do you know if your module will be enjoyed by people as you don't have any feedback. You may have produced a total dog. When it gets released and everyone says they love it, then you can talk about how easy it was. And when you organize, collect, and edit eight modules in a year, then you can talk about how easy that is. And when you edit over fifty modules in a year, you can talk about how easy that is. Until then, you've written one unreleased module. Very nice, but it doesn't compare. |
| MichaelTLH06-15-05, 11:35 AM | * edited out, question answered elsewhere * |
| Southernskies06-16-05, 07:21 AM | Well you are wrong. You don't know what it takes to get a module ready for publication after it is written. Nor do you know if your module will be enjoyed by people as you don't have any feedback. You may have produced a total dog. When it gets released and everyone says they love it, then you can talk about how easy it was. Until then, you've written one unreleased module. Very nice, but it doesn't compare. I can agree with this. Currently I have credits for 2 Regional Intros, 4 interactives and 1 published Regional. When a circle edit comes back "I have never seen so many breaches of the RPGA guidelines" it takes a lot of work to get it back to a publishable format. I'm waiting on my current scenario to come back from the Circle... 3 months after I submitted it to the Triad on time. :rolleyes: Another 8 days and it won't see the light of day this year. |
| kjenks06-16-05, 07:48 AM | I can agree with this. Currently I have credits for 2 Regional Intros, 4 interactives and 1 published Regional. When a circle edit comes back "I have never seen so many breaches of the RPGA guidelines" it takes a lot of work to get it back to a publishable format. I'm waiting on my current scenario to come back from the Circle... 3 months after I submitted it to the Triad on time. :rolleyes: Another 8 days and it won't see the light of day this year. I'm still waiting for a Lordship of the Isles Intro mod that we submitted in September, 2004. |
| Simpi06-16-05, 09:08 AM | I'm still waiting for a Lordship of the Isles Intro mod that we submitted in September, 2004. I've been in contact with the ex-Triad member and the new one. I could see if I can help you on this one. S.H, Ahlissa (Naerie) webslave |
| Gelth06-16-05, 12:50 PM | Oops you are right. In addition, you should be aware that all reach attacks use ranged targeting rules. This means that if you aren't adjacent to your opponent, you're using ranged rules, so the troll doesn't get cover against any attacks, even with (say) a spiked chain. I think of ranged targeting like this: If there's any part of your space that can target all of an opponent's space there's no cover. Note also that if targeting a creature larger that 1 square, you only need to be able to fully target any one square they occupy. The only time a hard corner provides cover _against_ someone right up against it is if the target is also against the corner. I hope that made sense. :) --Penn, Ket Triad |
| smerwin2906-16-05, 02:41 PM | Exactly my point. 2 months to proof read and balance/edit an adventure?!?! Am I the only person who thinks this is a joke? Wow. Take a core LG mod that covers APLs 2-14. Unless you are using monsters straight out of the MM with no variations, you are looking at hours and hours and hours of work. And that is JUST the stat blocks. I wish everyone who complained about the writing, editing, etc. of modules would just once do it AND put it out there for the public to see. It's always fun to watch how quickly people come to respect the work it takes. Writing in a shared-world environment where other people get to put their fingers in your work before it is approved is always a challenge. Shawn (who has written a mod or two for the RPGA) |
| King Kashue06-17-05, 03:22 AM | In addition, you should be aware that all reach attacks use ranged targeting rules. Not all of them...For instance, soft cover doesn't apply to reach weapons... |
| Timlagor06-17-05, 04:10 AM | Not all of them...For instance, soft cover doesn't apply to reach weapons... That has been a matter of considerable debate. I agree with you bu many don't. |
| kjenks06-17-05, 08:22 AM | The reasons for the debate are usually (A) people you have not read the PH Errata and (B) people you HAVE read the PH Errata and are confused by the apparent contradiction between the first sentence and the second sentence, as they apply to reach weapons. |
| blood_kite06-17-05, 02:04 PM | Sorry to drag the topic back to the hiding troll example, but there was a small point that was bugging me about the scout seeing and attacking the troll without cover and I think I found what it was. OOOOO OOTTO SXXXX OXXXX Here the troll is squeezing and readying an action. Both get to make spot checks, the scout wins and the troll loses. The scout, in a fit of insanity, decides to shoot the troll. According to page 150 of the PHB: To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target’s square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC). Drawing a line from the upper right corner of the scout to the lower corners of the troll makes the line go through the border of the wall the scout is hiding behind. Doesn't this mean that it still provides cover for the troll against ranged attacks? |
| King Kashue06-17-05, 02:33 PM | The reasons for the debate are usually (A) people you have not read the PH Errata and (B) people you HAVE read the PH Errata and are confused by the apparent contradiction between the first sentence and the second sentence, as they apply to reach weapons. Which is why I keep the PHB Errata handy with my character who uses a reach weapon... :D |
| Timlagor06-17-05, 10:25 PM | The reasons for the debate are usually (A) people you have not read the PH Errata and (B) people you HAVE read the PH Errata and are confused by the apparent contradiction between the first sentence and the second sentence, as they apply to reach weapons. I think "confused" is entirely the wrong word here. People disagree quite firmly even while fully understanding the others' argument. |
| Timlagor06-17-05, 10:30 PM | According to page 150 of the PHB: To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target’s square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC). Drawing a line from the upper right corner of the scout to the lower corners of the troll makes the line go through the border of the wall the scout is hiding behind. Doesn't this mean that it still provides cover for the troll against ranged attacks? You certainly have a reasonable argument. I thought that that was referring to things like 1" (or wahtever) thick walls that you would draw along a border rather than in a square. Two arguments for you: 1 The border doesn't block line of effect along that axis (from the scout's corner to the troll) and so is irrelevent. 2 Consider this: SWo 0XXX (I've turned the Troll into a Wolf to avoid the whole size issue) Does the Wolf have Melee Cover from the Scout for the same reason? -most people would say not. |
| blood_kite06-17-05, 11:30 PM | According to page 150 of the PHB: To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target’s square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC). 1. To me the rule implies a square or border "of a square" that blocks line of effect or provides cover. Since we're talking about a stone wall that the scout can use for cover, I'd say that fulfills the requirements for my interpretation. 2. Since the scout can still use its upper corner to trace line of effect for ranged attacks, none of the wolf's corners are hidden by the wall. Melee attacks wouldn't have this problem because it says that the line traced has to go through a wall, not just go through a square or border that blocks line of effect. A problem I see with my interpretation for ranged attacks is if you shoot down a 5' wide corridor. Either corner you pick will be going through the borders of one side or the other. However, it does not seem fair that the scout could simply stand at the corner, gain the benefits of cover, and suffer none of the penalties of having part of a stone wall between you and your opponent. Here is what I mean by that: OGOOO SXXXX OXXXX We'll change the example to a goblin and the scout. Both certainly have melee cover against the other, it matches the example picture on page 151 perfectly. According to my interpretation, they would both also have ranged cover against each other. Not including the borders of squares for determining ranged cover leads to a strange situation in this case. The scout would be able to fire his bow at the goblin without penalty, and not provoke an attack of opportunity for firing a ranged weapon in melee because he has melee cover against the goblin. Your interpretation also means that neither scout nor goblin would be able to hide in this situation and both would automatically spot each other. Your interpretation also means that the monster could simply stand at the corner while using it for cover to hide, automatically spot the scout as it came down the corridor, and pelt the scout with arrows without suffering cover penalties while enjoying cover benefits. This is how I would rule it, not that my ruling would mean much since I cannot judge Living Greyhawk modules. But it makes the most sense to me (except for the 5' wide corridor part.) |
| Timlagor06-18-05, 07:14 AM | Blood_kite, I agree with all the consequences you described. I would of course allow spot checks against someone standing rond a corner and looking down it; spot checks might be appropirate against someone jsut standing right next to a corner. Think about the differences between Melee and Ranged weapons. You have to swing the melee weapon; you only have to aim the ranged one. This justifies the difference imo: there is a reason people use corners for shooting round. Finally i missed something in my previous post. From your excerpt: "corner of the target’s square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover" NB: "*through* a square or border". In the example the line only passes *along* the border. |
| blood_kite06-19-05, 08:05 PM | Hmm, I have to agree with the last point. That pretty much dispels my arguements about how to determine cover, it just promotes strange cases like the scout being able to shoot his bow at the goblin without penalty or provoking, while the goblin's melee attacks would be impaired. Here's another example of the strangeness. Same physical setup: OGO SXX OXX Scout is armed with a bow (despite being in front of the party with enemies nearby) and the goblin is holding with a spear and shield and has a dagger at his belt (because everyone should have a dagger). Scout shoots at goblin with no penalty and without provoking. Goblin manages to survive the arrow and prepares to stab at the scout with his spear, then realizes that the difference between his Strength and his Dexterity is less than 8 points and throws the spear at the scout instead of using it for melee. He now attacks the scout with his ranged weapon and suffers no penalty for cover while not provoking (just in case the scout had Improved Unarmed Strike or armor spikes). The goblin then draws his dagger and whatever else he wants to do with his move action. Unless I'm missing something else, this is how the rules work. Now that I've completely written what I was originally going to post, I'll add something else I just noticed while flipping through the back of the PHB: line of effect: Line of effect tells you whether an effect (such as an explosion) can reach a target. Line of effect works just like line of sight, except line of effect ignores restrictions on visual ability. For instance, a fireball's explosion doesn't care if a creature is invisible or hiding in darkness. line of sight: Two creatures can see each other if they have line of sight to each other. To determine line of sight, draw an imaginary line between between your space and the target's space. If any such line is clear (not blocked), then you have line of sight to the creature (and it has line of sight to you). The line is clear if it doesn't intersect or even touch squares that block line of sight. If you can't see the target (for instance, if you're blind or the target is invisible), you can't have line of sight to it even if you could draw an unblocked line between your space and the target's. Example: XXXXX OOOGO OOOOK OOOOO OOXXX OSXXX OOXXX The Scout, using upper left corner for determining this, has line of sight (and therefore line of effect) on the Goblin against the far wall. The Scout does not have line of sight to the Kobold adjacent to the Goblin because the imaginary line from the upper left corner of the Scout to the upper left corner of the Kobold touches the upper left corner of the wall the Scout is next to. Check page 139 of the PHB. It just goes to further confuse the issue to me. |
| Timlagor06-20-05, 06:38 AM | I agree that the Goblin with the Spear is anomalous (though I don't see where yo uegt the 8 from) but what's all that about seeing the kobold? Seems prefectly straightforward and sensible to me. Clearly the Goblin should come into sight before the goblin: after that it's just a question of exactly where. I find it stranger that you are apparently in plain sight to anyone coming down the corridor if you are just round the corner -they will always have LoS to your top left hand corner (in the corridor we've been using) I would say these are two cases of the rules not moddelling the situation well and possibly apply GM discretion. - you clearly can hide round a corner and peek round it without being clearly visible. - Using a spear probably ought to negate or reduce the melee cover or have partial cover against thrown weapons; I'm not sure we can do this in LG though. |
| blood_kite06-20-05, 04:05 PM | I agree that the Goblin with the Spear is anomalous (though I don't see where yo uegt the 8 from) The 8 point difference I was refering to was the fact that the goblin in the first example would have to have a strength score of at least 8 points higher than his dexterity in order to effectively negate the cover penalty. Here is an example of the math: Goblin A BAB: +1 Str: 12(+1) Dex: 12(+1) Melee: +2 Ranged: +2 Melee vs. Cover: -2 Goblin B BAB: +1 Str: 20(+5) Dex: 12(+1) Melee: +6 Ranged: +2 Melee vs. Cover: +2 but what's all that about seeing the kobold? Let me repost the second example, which is the one this question is refering to: XXXXX OOOGO OOOOK OOOOO OOXXX OSXXX OOXXX S=Scout G=Goblin K=Kobold According to page 139 of the PHB the Scout would have line of sight to the Goblin. The Goblin and the Scout have cover against each other because they can't see all four corners of their opponent's square. The Scout and the Kobold cannot see each other at all. This is because the upper left corner of the bolded wall square blocks line of sight between the Scout and the Kobold. I find it stranger that you are apparently in plain sight to anyone coming down the corridor if you are just round the corner -they will always have LoS to your top left hand corner (in the corridor we've been using) Having line of sight to a single corner of a square means you have line of sight to the square, anyone in that square would still have cover unless you had line of sight to all four corners of the square. - Using a spear probably ought to negate or reduce the melee cover or have partial cover against thrown weapons; I'm not sure we can do this in LG though. We could say that not only should thrown weapons have cover in that situation, but that ALL ranged attacks should have cover in that situation. (I'm going cross country on business this week, so I don't know when I'll get the chance to see this again.) |
| Timlagor06-21-05, 03:12 PM | AFAIK Cover only grants +4AC. Why 8? I agree that grantin cover from range weapons in any situation where you have melee cover woudl also work -not in LG though. What I don't understand about your kobold is why you think it surprising. It seems perfectly sensible to me that you would see the goblin first. I know the rules say you can see the whole square if you can see one corner but I was pointing out that the following situation is silly: oG oXXX oXXX oXXX oXXX oXXX SXXX Here the Goblin can't hide from the Scout (assuming light). I think he should be able to hide tehre and look round the corner (allowing the scout a spot check) |
| honeynuggets07-21-05, 03:44 PM | AFAIK Cover only grants +4AC. Why 8? I agree that grantin cover from range weapons in any situation where you have melee cover woudl also work -not in LG though. What I don't understand about your kobold is why you think it surprising. It seems perfectly sensible to me that you would see the goblin first. I know the rules say you can see the whole square if you can see one corner but I was pointing out that the following situation is silly: oG oXXX oXXX oXXX oXXX oXXX SXXX Here the Goblin can't hide from the Scout (assuming light). I think he should be able to hide tehre and look round the corner (allowing the scout a spot check) The Goblin (G) can Hide. The Goblin has cover and line of sight to the Scout. The Scout (S) doesn't have cover from the Goblin and therefore can't use cover to Hide. Refer to page 95 of the Miniatures Handbook for illustrations on how line of sight works. I was just checking back here to see if the v3.5 DMG version II has more clearly described Encounter Start Distance rules. |
| solbergb07-24-05, 04:06 PM | Just a comment on adventure authoring. Writing a mod for my own use, or even one for those of my friends, limited to one level range, is a much easier proposition than writing one for RPGA use. Here's how my first experience with authoring in RPGA went. Early March: Triad asks for minimission submissions for a convention on Labor Day. Nice simple 2 hour minimissions, set in either Wintershiven or Hatherleigh. Only goal is to show a little regional flavor in an urban setting. Mid March: Wife and I get an idea for such a mission, bat it around during the month. Early April: Actually get around to writing the outline. This takes about a week, and includes coming up with names, descriptions and motivations for something like two dozen NPC's, plus, as it is urban, some details on how the "authorities" will react to the event. Some of what we're doing is mildly controversial, as it essentially means we're extrapolating some brief articles about the regional society into hard "this is how they do things here" procedures. Send in the outline one day before the deadline. April: Triad reviewer says "I'll get back to you, I'm busy right now." Time passes. I work on statblocks some, since I know those are going to be time consuming (APL2-12 scaling on "leveled" NPC's is not hard to do in your head but getting all the fiddly details right on the stablock is surprisingly complex) May: Send version 0.1 in to the triad, again no feedback beyond "keep sending me drafts", from which I discern that he's ok with the basic idea. It took several evenings a week of each week of that month doing nothing but working on it to translate the outline into a fairly coherent module. There turned out to be a lot of stuff in my head that was hard to articulate to someone running it cold. Do a playtest for another author and chat with him about review cycles and how pro-active I should be. He said that generally silence meant you need to just write and ask forgiveness, rather than ask permission. The important thing is to get it written in time to playtest. By late May I had most of the appendicies and statblocks written, all of the adventure text and most of the drudgery of treasure/xp calculations and such. June: I had a week off early June, I was going to use it to polish my mod but instead spent most of it playtesting another author's mod. So all of June's free evenings were spent going carefully through APL2-12, playing out whether the authorities were capable as written of doing what they said, whether the good and bad guy NPC's could actually perform mechanically what the plot said they'd try and just running some sample parties through to make sure I had not missed anything major. In the process, the statblocks had some pretty major revisions, and the descriptive text describing the flow of the battle encounters and things NPC's might try to do were rewritten from scratch. (this touches heavily on the topic of this thread...I did my best to use "they might try to do XXX" or "the NPC's plan is to YYY and the goal of the PC's is to prevent it" not "The NPC WILL do YYY." etc). Early July, did my first playtest with my wife/co-author providing characters. The mod ran long at APL8, but it basically worked. Added stuff in each encounter saying to check the time and with how to shorten encounters if the mod is running late. The mod was designed to work if the battle went fast or slow, with the roleplay sections expanded or summarized to keep on schedule, but the Judge needs to pay attention to the pacing. Forwarded higher versions, including maps and almost complete appendicies to Triad. Response is now that he's counting on me to have it ready for the convention. Also my drive for a playtest has encouraged the other two minimission authors to finish up their efforts. Mid-July to present - scheduling the first real playtest which will also be slotzeroes for the labor day convention. We've scheduled time to talk about how the mods scale too, and problems we expect with the Judges that will run them. We have a big advantage over a normal mod, in that the minimissions will really only play at one convention, and we can see all the judges running it face-to-face, so they'll likely understand our intent even if we didn't get it all written into the mods. August - two more slotzeroes probably, then the mods go live. It is unclear how many edits we can do in August, my goal is to be happy with my final draft before my first playtest. I know that next week, I need to add my "NPC Names" appendix and rewrite the AR section because I didn't really word the favors right. This is not a two-week process, and this was an easier task than doing a core module, that can be run by somebody half a world away, with no contact to my ideas than the words I actually put on the paper. I also have skipped most of the editing loops, probably because I took something my triad reviewer wrote and expanded it as a plot element in the story, so we're on roughly the same wavelength. I'm also not trying anything hugely ambitious to the regional storylines or with RPGA guidelines. I AM writing what I hope will be a fun little slice of life adventure that will influence how future authors and judges treat some of the topics covered in our region. How well I succeeded won't be known for a couple months. I also know I'll think long and hard before committing to any future writing...this took a tremendous amount of time and energy, much more than writing my own adventures for a home campaign. |
| Samwise07-24-05, 06:26 PM | Interesting story. My response - Wow! You actually had an outline in 2 weeks and a draft a month later? From my experience, that is on the "Amazing" end of the time scale. And that you got the rest done while playtesting yet another event is an even bigger accomplishment. You certainly put in a lot of work. I hope it goes over well. |
| Jesse Heinig07-24-05, 10:45 PM | That's not unexpected for a short adventure. I know that I would generally take 1-2 days on an outline and could reliably push out a 192-page book in a few months of writing and development. Interesting story. My response - Wow! You actually had an outline in 2 weeks and a draft a month later? From my experience, that is on the "Amazing" end of the time scale. And that you got the rest done while playtesting yet another event is an even bigger accomplishment. You certainly put in a lot of work. I hope it goes over well. |