Back after Years Away - 1st LWOG Char. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Back after Years Away - 1st LWOG Char. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
windmarkbob
06-14-06, 01:42 AM It's been years since I've played and am about to start playing LWOG with a first level character. I figured I'd ask a quick question on the forum before I actually make him.

How does improved trip (let's say I'm using a flail), work with a whirlwind attack?

Thanks,

Bob
aka
The Mameluke
paigeoliver
06-14-06, 07:22 AM Your whirlwind attack makes a trip attempt against everyone, and successful trips give you followup attacks from improved trip.

So yes, it works the way you were hoping it would.

Also, I'd suggest when doing that that you make your hit rolls from the weakest looking opponent to the beefiest ones. That way you don't lose your flail to the first guy in the sequence and end up losing the rest of your attacks.

If you want to be a whirlwind attack tripper though I would suggest using a reach trip weapon though, like a guisarme or spiked chain, you'll get more people with it that way.
paigeoliver
06-14-06, 07:24 AM Oh and one other minor note, I know what you meant by LWOG (Living World of Greyhawk), but that is not an acronym I have ever heard or seen anyone use and not everyone is going to guess it like I did. LG is the commonly used acronym.
windmarkbob
06-14-06, 10:28 AM Thanks!

Bob
ShinAkuma2
06-14-06, 03:52 PM Your whirlwind attack makes a trip attempt against everyone, and successful trips give you followup attacks from improved trip.

So yes, it works the way you were hoping it would.

Whirlwind Attack specifies that you lose any sort of extra attacks when using it, so you don't get any extra attacks from Improved Trip.

You can still trip everyone around you, though.
clik_ml
06-14-06, 04:30 PM Heh, for a moment I thought 3.5 Whirlwind Attack was a minor improvement over 3.0 Whirlwind Attack, since it actually did something with 10' reach weapons.

It seems I was mistaken. I have no idea why designers get giddy at nerfing a feat that is the 5th frickin step in a crappy chain along with requiring 13 int and dex and +4 BAB.

For 5 feats it had better be useful every round of every combat and make me breakfast in the morning too.

Short synopsis, whirlwind attack sucks more than those Dyson vacuums, and it never loses suction either.
Arvagor
06-14-06, 05:37 PM Short synopsis, whirlwind attack sucks more than those Dyson vacuums, and it never loses suction either.You know, this could get into a long discussion on what any given person considers broken or not, but have you really, truly thought about Whirlwind Attack, and what it is capable of?
WHIRLWIND ATTACK [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, base attack bonus +4.

Benefit: When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach.

When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.

Special: A fighter may select Whirlwind Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats.This means that at 15th level (LG PC max for sake of argument), a fighter gives up 3 attacks at BAB +15/+10/+5, to instead make up to 8 attacks at +15 with a "normal" melee weapon, 16 attacks at +15 with a reach weapon, or 24(!) attacks at +15 with the unholiness that is the spiked chain.

And you call the feat nerfed???

Yes, the above examples presume a medium fighter (or whatever) completely surrounded by like-sized foes, but even if he has only 2-3 foes within reach, it's an incredibly effective feat to have.
clik_ml
06-14-06, 06:26 PM You know, this could get into a long discussion on what any given person considers broken or not, but have you really, truly thought about Whirlwind Attack, and what it is capable of?

Yes, TRULY!

I will concede that it really isn't accurate of me to call it nerfed since it was never any good, and 3.5 is a slight power up despite it still sucking.

How many times have you ever ever ever ever seen a combat with 24 enemies? How about 10 even? And in those extremely rare cases, how often would they all cluster around just 1 fighter?

DnD combat does not work well with large numbers of enemies, and as a result you won't be fighting the masses almost ever. If you ever do fight them, then they will probably have bows and make the fighter cry as they turn him into a pincushion while he laments having wasted 5 feats and a 13 Int.

What sucks extra hard on Whirlwind Attack is that even if you get 1 or 2 more attacks over an iterative full attack, it still isn't worth it usually. You are better off concentrating fire on one enemy at a time to remove them as fast as possible. It will only pay off when fighting large numbers of mooks, and then they aren't even worth any experience to you since they are so not a threat. I find it an utter waste to blow 6 feats (I'm now counting spiked chain since it's extra retarded to go WW-Atk without a spiked chainesque weapon from a numbers point of view) on the fluff ability to have the DM just call incredibly easy fights.

There may be a tiny window around the APL 4-6 area where a human fighter who has put every feat into whirlwind attacking with a spiked chain gets to net an extra attack or two before he has his second iterative attack. This isn't a superior tactic at all mind you, since with 6 different feats and better stat allocation (i.e. no 13 int) he could be raining down death with single attacks... but it is an almost competetive tactic for a very narrow APL window. It just loses any competitive damage dealing ability once haste and iterative attacks enter the equation. If it allowed imp tripping or somesuch then it would at least have some utility after it fell further behind in the damage department.

[edit: Really it should be assumed that the character is going to be enlarged somehow and spiked chaining for 15' total reach, just so that he can hopefully get 3+ enemies in range most of the time. That is how I consider WW-Atk to be used in the wild, but sadly at a cost of 6 feats it just doesn't add up.]
Iswald
06-14-06, 10:23 PM You don't get just whirlwind attack, you get other feats that you've qualified for such as elusive target. The variety of feats you take allows more flexibility in tactics than normal. Not that I recommend picking up whirlwind attack...
thorinXXX
06-15-06, 11:37 AM Snip
This means that at 15th level (LG PC max for sake of argument), a fighter gives up 3 attacks at BAB +15/+10/+5, to instead make up to 8 attacks at +15 with a "normal" melee weapon, 16 attacks at +15 with a reach weapon, or 24(!) attacks at +15 with the unholiness that is the spiked chain.

And you call the feat nerfed???

.

That same fighter is better off power attacking and great cleaving the horde of peons.
thorinXXX
06-15-06, 11:41 AM You don't get just whirlwind attack, you get other feats that you've qualified for such as elusive target. The variety of feats you take allows more flexibility in tactics than normal. Not that I recommend picking up whirlwind attack...

Since you are already qualified for elusive target, why not just take it?
In LG whirlwind attack is very suboptimal. In a home game where you may be more likely to deal with hordes of peons it may be more viable.
Iswald
06-15-06, 10:50 PM Since you are already qualified for elusive target, why not just take it?

My point exactly. You take elusive target and then you also get whirlwind attack. The feats used to qualify for whirlwind attack aren't wasted.
clik_ml
06-16-06, 03:53 AM Of course they aren't utterly wasted. There are very few feats which give no edge whatsoever (though some do indeed exist).

The point is more that those feats are very sub-optimal. Making good use of Dodge is hard work. Mobility even harder. Spring Attack can be okay, but generally inferior to other options especially due to the armor restriction it comes bundled with. Combat Expertise works for some builds, but it mixes very poorly with someone who actually desires to use whirlwind attack.

Those are pre-reqs for other feats, but in general you're much better off burning feats to qualify for prestige classes and taking staples like shock trooper, power attack, combat reflexes (for the spiked chain user), improved toughness, etc. Sure, eventually you will catch up on all the staples if you are condemned to life as a human fighter. But that means for the first half of your adventuring career you are neglecting all the really good options.

If I were using a spiked chain, I would rather have Combat Reflexes than the combined might of Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack and Combat Expertise.

I'd likely take even Expertise at some early point to get in on the tripping/disarming action, but the early whirlwind attacker is likely going to have to put off being a trip/disarm monkey until level 8. That's a long wait for competency in other combat tricks when one can put whirlwind attack off until never and be quite happy with that choice.

Consider your options for your first 6 feats:
Power Attack, Tripping, AoOs, and Disarming
versus... Peon Removal.

Whirlwind Attack really is a lemon.

Given infinite feats, I would eventually take it for giggles, but there are so many better feats that it just won't make it into any build that I could bare considering.
Lomiat
06-16-06, 11:56 PM I'm generally of the opinion that there are better feats to buy than Whirlwind Attack, but to play Pit Fiend's Advocate, I will argue that there are builds that could put it to great effect, notably high-movement characters designed to move into the middle of a bunch of bad guys and hit them all on the first round (and, then, one presumes, each ensuing round).

Someone argue that there's a very narrow APL range at which Whirlwind might be better than a full attack action, but that's not really the case. Even once the character (with Cleave) gets an iterative attack, that 2nd attack comes at 1 BAB. The question, really, amounts to how many bad guys a Whirlwind Attacker needs within reach to make the feat pay off. At low levels, the answer is 2. After the Power Attack-Cleave guy gets the iterative attack, the answer is still 2 when the bad guys either: a) drop ridiculously easy (as in one hit apiece), or b) are tough (as in one hit won't fell either). The answer is 3 if the difference in converting the attribute bonus to hit (assuming you buy more STR and less INT) into power attack allows you to fell one and Cleave into the next.

Now, it's interesting that Whirlwind Attack requires Spring Attack because, though I suspect it wouldn't work, Whirlwind Attack states that it "replaces" your attacks. Theoretically, you could drop it in the middle of a Spring Attack; again, I don't thiink that's the case, but this could easily result in a "broken" tactic.

Finally, while you can't take "extra" attacks from Cleave, Improved Trip, etc., you could use your initial melee attack against all combatants to trip them or take some other sort of attack (I'm thinking this could be really abusive when the Improved Initiative wizard casts Greater Invis on the high-damage output Rogue who then goes into the middle of the bad guys and Whirlwind Attacks them all with Power Attack and Staggering Strike--yes, this theoretical rogue has, probably, 2 levels of Fighter).

In other words, Whirlwind Attack requires 13 INT for a reason; it's not a simple, bone-cruncher's brainless combat option; it's a tactical feat that requires some imagination to make work.
Arvagor
06-17-06, 09:52 AM Now, it's interesting that Whirlwind Attack requires Spring Attack because, though I suspect it wouldn't work, Whirlwind Attack states that it "replaces" your attacks. Theoretically, you could drop it in the middle of a Spring Attack; again, I don't thiink that's the case, but this could easily result in a "broken" tactic.Spring Attack states you're using the attack action (a stabdard action), while Whirlwind Attack requires you to use a full attack action (a full-round action), so you cannot combine the two...
Lomiat
06-17-06, 02:10 PM I was looking for the words "full-attack" but couldn't find them earlier because I was too tired. I guess, though, that you could take enough levels of Marshal to grant yourself a free Move Action and then Whirlwind Attack (or play with a regular group of players--one a Marshal and one a Whirlwind Attacker). Or just have the fighter delay until the Wizard/Sorceror Dim Doors him into position (or uses Slide/Glide--whichever--if they find access to the limited spell).
DuctShuiTengu
06-17-06, 03:04 PM Someone argue that there's a very narrow APL range at which Whirlwind might be better than a full attack action, but that's not really the case. Even once the character (with Cleave) gets an iterative attack, that 2nd attack comes at 1 BAB. The question, really, amounts to how many bad guys a Whirlwind Attacker needs within reach to make the feat pay off. At low levels, the answer is 2. After the Power Attack-Cleave guy gets the iterative attack, the answer is still 2 when the bad guys either: a) drop ridiculously easy (as in one hit apiece), or b) are tough (as in one hit won't fell either). The answer is 3 if the difference in converting the attribute bonus to hit (assuming you buy more STR and less INT) into power attack allows you to fell one and Cleave into the next.

I'm going to have to disagree here. As was pointed out earlier, while Whirlwind attack may not need many people around you for it to allow you to get in more hits than you would otherwise, that still generally doesn't make it a better tactic than focusing the attacks you'd have normally on one of the people within reach.

The reason being that a badly injured opponent can still hit just as hard as one who's still at full health. (as someone who's had chars killed by an NPC who was staggered, I've seen this demonstrated quite effectively.) If you take your iterative attacks all against one of the people you can reach, you may not get as many hits in total, and you may not do as much over-all damage, but if you kill that NPC with one of your iterative attacks, it's one less person who can hit you back when it gets to be their turn (this is especially valuable when the 2 opponents you were quoting earlier are Rogues and were counting on each-other to provide flanks so they could get their sneak attack damage. (been in that situation too. a pair of 5th level rogues who've taken TWF are going to be looking at an extra 12d6 of sneak attack damage if they get that flank. At 6th level, that's a heck of a lot.)) Sure, you're not as likely to hit with that second attack just full-attacking the normal way, but when you're potentially looking at your PC getting killed if you don't drop one of your opponents before they get their next attack off...

Which brings us to another problem with Whirlwind attack. To really make full use of it, you have to have a lot more enemies around you than is really healthy. Sure, you might be able to get in 5 or 6 hits with it instead of just 1 or two, but you're also setting yourself up to have 5 or 6 people hit you right back.

Now, against weaker opponents who are generally going to drop with 1 hit, Whirlwind attack is almost as effective as Great Cleave (I say almost because with Great Cleave, if one of them does survive the first hit, you've got your second one to try to finish them off with (and potentially Cleave some more off of it). But then, as has already been pointed out, most LG mods (at least from what I've seen) aren't pitting you against hordes of mooks that die that easily, and in general, those mooks weren't going to be that dangerous even if you took an extra round or two to kill them all.

Now, using Whirlwind Attack with Improved Trip or Improved Disarm to disable a group of opponents sounds like it could have something going for it (assuming you don't have the bad fortune of being tripped or disarmed by the first guy), but that's now a 6th feat (admittedly, not a bad 6th feat (neither were some of the others IMHO), but it's still making this rather costly) that you're having to take to pull this off.
Sect
06-26-06, 02:58 PM That same fighter is better off power attacking and great cleaving the horde of peons.

Assuming that the same fighter can drop all of them. It's a good tactic, but it's a gamble; what if he misses the first target? His attack's then ruined for the rest of the round. With Whirlwind attack, you still have the X number of attacks left.

Not that either of the tactics are better than each other, of course.
thorinXXX
06-27-06, 11:37 AM Assuming that the same fighter can drop all of them. It's a good tactic, but it's a gamble; what if he misses the first target? His attack's then ruined for the rest of the round. With Whirlwind attack, you still have the X number of attacks left.

Not that either of the tactics are better than each other, of course.

Iterative attack(s). By the time you get whirlwind attack you have to have multiple attacks. If you are missing all of the time you would have missed with your whirlwind attacks too.
Arvagor
06-27-06, 02:32 PM Iterative attack(s). By the time you get whirlwind attack you have to have multiple attacks.Not necessarily. Perfectly serviceable Rog/Ftr builds could have the feat combo at character level 6, but only have BAB +5 (generally a Rog4/Ftr2 build)
rogerd
06-27-06, 02:38 PM I wonder if the Whirlwind attack would work for a Monk? For the sake of argument:
Human Monk, Str 14, Dex 14, Con 12, INT 14, WIS 14, CHA 8
1: Stunning Fist, Flurry, Improved Unarmed Strike, Dodge, Mobility
2: Combat Reflexes
3: Combat Expertise
4: +WIS
6: Improved Trip, Spring Attack
8: +WIS
9: Whirlwind Attack

7 skills: tumble, jump, balance, climb, swim, move silently, hide, (or to taste)

Here is a very skilled, defensive-minded character who can move almost at will through the battlefield. At 2nd level, he picks up a spiked chain (or maybe a Guisarme) to use untrained. The basic plan is to use it only for tripping and Attacks of opportunity. The -4 isn't so bad as a touch attack (depending on your enemies) and the +4 and -4 cancel out for the follow-up attack. If they are close enough to you, you kick them instead.

If you are against a group, you have a decent shot of positioning yourself such that you can do a whirlwind attack to trip all your opponents, possibly stunning one, provide flanking bonuses and prone bonuses/penalties, plus potential AOs to your friends. Then your front-line guys can beat down the bad guys with relative impunity.

Against a single large enemy, you use your superior speed to spring attack for a stunning fist, possibly denying the opponent an action and inflicting at least some damage, and then jump away before they can retaliate.

Obviously this won't work in every combat, but I can see it being very effective in the right circumstances. If nothing else, this kind of build could be used against the party to drain resources (healing spells, etc.). I can also see this sort of build being useful in a mop-up situation (after area effect spells, for instance). Of course Power Attack/Cleave/Great Cleave is easier, but this does have advantages. In particular, this build at 9th level before equipment can have an AC of 10 + 3 (Wisdom)+ 2 (Dex) + 1 (Monk bonus) + 5 (Combat Expertise) + 3 (Fight Defensively) = 24, unarmored, and a 28 vs. attacks of opportunity, with the ability to mostly avoid AOs and designate a dodge buddy for an additional +1. Of course you're taking a -9 to hit, so you may need to roll high. :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
windmarkbob 06-14-06, 01:42 AM	It's been years since I've played and am about to start playing LWOG with a first level character. I figured I'd ask a quick question on the forum before I actually make him. How does improved trip (let's say I'm using a flail), work with a whirlwind attack? Thanks, Bob aka The Mameluke
paigeoliver 06-14-06, 07:22 AM	Your whirlwind attack makes a trip attempt against everyone, and successful trips give you followup attacks from improved trip. So yes, it works the way you were hoping it would. Also, I'd suggest when doing that that you make your hit rolls from the weakest looking opponent to the beefiest ones. That way you don't lose your flail to the first guy in the sequence and end up losing the rest of your attacks. If you want to be a whirlwind attack tripper though I would suggest using a reach trip weapon though, like a guisarme or spiked chain, you'll get more people with it that way.
paigeoliver 06-14-06, 07:24 AM	Oh and one other minor note, I know what you meant by LWOG (Living World of Greyhawk), but that is not an acronym I have ever heard or seen anyone use and not everyone is going to guess it like I did. LG is the commonly used acronym.
windmarkbob 06-14-06, 10:28 AM	Thanks! Bob
ShinAkuma2 06-14-06, 03:52 PM	Your whirlwind attack makes a trip attempt against everyone, and successful trips give you followup attacks from improved trip. So yes, it works the way you were hoping it would. Whirlwind Attack specifies that you lose any sort of extra attacks when using it, so you don't get any extra attacks from Improved Trip. You can still trip everyone around you, though.
clik_ml 06-14-06, 04:30 PM	Heh, for a moment I thought 3.5 Whirlwind Attack was a minor improvement over 3.0 Whirlwind Attack, since it actually did something with 10' reach weapons. It seems I was mistaken. I have no idea why designers get giddy at nerfing a feat that is the 5th frickin step in a crappy chain along with requiring 13 int and dex and +4 BAB. For 5 feats it had better be useful every round of every combat and make me breakfast in the morning too. Short synopsis, whirlwind attack sucks more than those Dyson vacuums, and it never loses suction either.
Arvagor 06-14-06, 05:37 PM	Short synopsis, whirlwind attack sucks more than those Dyson vacuums, and it never loses suction either.You know, this could get into a long discussion on what any given person considers broken or not, but have you really, truly thought about Whirlwind Attack, and what it is capable of? WHIRLWIND ATTACK [GENERAL] Prerequisites: Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, base attack bonus +4. Benefit: When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities. Special: A fighter may select Whirlwind Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats.This means that at 15th level (LG PC max for sake of argument), a fighter gives up 3 attacks at BAB +15/+10/+5, to instead make up to 8 attacks at +15 with a "normal" melee weapon, 16 attacks at +15 with a reach weapon, or 24(!) attacks at +15 with the unholiness that is the spiked chain. And you call the feat nerfed??? Yes, the above examples presume a medium fighter (or whatever) completely surrounded by like-sized foes, but even if he has only 2-3 foes within reach, it's an incredibly effective feat to have.
clik_ml 06-14-06, 06:26 PM	You know, this could get into a long discussion on what any given person considers broken or not, but have you really, truly thought about Whirlwind Attack, and what it is capable of? Yes, TRULY! I will concede that it really isn't accurate of me to call it nerfed since it was never any good, and 3.5 is a slight power up despite it still sucking. How many times have you ever ever ever ever seen a combat with 24 enemies? How about 10 even? And in those extremely rare cases, how often would they all cluster around just 1 fighter? DnD combat does not work well with large numbers of enemies, and as a result you won't be fighting the masses almost ever. If you ever do fight them, then they will probably have bows and make the fighter cry as they turn him into a pincushion while he laments having wasted 5 feats and a 13 Int. What sucks extra hard on Whirlwind Attack is that even if you get 1 or 2 more attacks over an iterative full attack, it still isn't worth it usually. You are better off concentrating fire on one enemy at a time to remove them as fast as possible. It will only pay off when fighting large numbers of mooks, and then they aren't even worth any experience to you since they are so not a threat. I find it an utter waste to blow 6 feats (I'm now counting spiked chain since it's extra retarded to go WW-Atk without a spiked chainesque weapon from a numbers point of view) on the fluff ability to have the DM just call incredibly easy fights. There may be a tiny window around the APL 4-6 area where a human fighter who has put every feat into whirlwind attacking with a spiked chain gets to net an extra attack or two before he has his second iterative attack. This isn't a superior tactic at all mind you, since with 6 different feats and better stat allocation (i.e. no 13 int) he could be raining down death with single attacks... but it is an almost competetive tactic for a very narrow APL window. It just loses any competitive damage dealing ability once haste and iterative attacks enter the equation. If it allowed imp tripping or somesuch then it would at least have some utility after it fell further behind in the damage department. [edit: Really it should be assumed that the character is going to be enlarged somehow and spiked chaining for 15' total reach, just so that he can hopefully get 3+ enemies in range most of the time. That is how I consider WW-Atk to be used in the wild, but sadly at a cost of 6 feats it just doesn't add up.]
Iswald 06-14-06, 10:23 PM	You don't get just whirlwind attack, you get other feats that you've qualified for such as elusive target. The variety of feats you take allows more flexibility in tactics than normal. Not that I recommend picking up whirlwind attack...
thorinXXX 06-15-06, 11:37 AM	Snip This means that at 15th level (LG PC max for sake of argument), a fighter gives up 3 attacks at BAB +15/+10/+5, to instead make up to 8 attacks at +15 with a "normal" melee weapon, 16 attacks at +15 with a reach weapon, or 24(!) attacks at +15 with the unholiness that is the spiked chain. And you call the feat nerfed??? . That same fighter is better off power attacking and great cleaving the horde of peons.
thorinXXX 06-15-06, 11:41 AM	You don't get just whirlwind attack, you get other feats that you've qualified for such as elusive target. The variety of feats you take allows more flexibility in tactics than normal. Not that I recommend picking up whirlwind attack... Since you are already qualified for elusive target, why not just take it? In LG whirlwind attack is very suboptimal. In a home game where you may be more likely to deal with hordes of peons it may be more viable.
Iswald 06-15-06, 10:50 PM	Since you are already qualified for elusive target, why not just take it? My point exactly. You take elusive target and then you also get whirlwind attack. The feats used to qualify for whirlwind attack aren't wasted.
clik_ml 06-16-06, 03:53 AM	Of course they aren't utterly wasted. There are very few feats which give no edge whatsoever (though some do indeed exist). The point is more that those feats are very sub-optimal. Making good use of Dodge is hard work. Mobility even harder. Spring Attack can be okay, but generally inferior to other options especially due to the armor restriction it comes bundled with. Combat Expertise works for some builds, but it mixes very poorly with someone who actually desires to use whirlwind attack. Those are pre-reqs for other feats, but in general you're much better off burning feats to qualify for prestige classes and taking staples like shock trooper, power attack, combat reflexes (for the spiked chain user), improved toughness, etc. Sure, eventually you will catch up on all the staples if you are condemned to life as a human fighter. But that means for the first half of your adventuring career you are neglecting all the really good options. If I were using a spiked chain, I would rather have Combat Reflexes than the combined might of Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack and Combat Expertise. I'd likely take even Expertise at some early point to get in on the tripping/disarming action, but the early whirlwind attacker is likely going to have to put off being a trip/disarm monkey until level 8. That's a long wait for competency in other combat tricks when one can put whirlwind attack off until never and be quite happy with that choice. Consider your options for your first 6 feats: Power Attack, Tripping, AoOs, and Disarming versus... Peon Removal. Whirlwind Attack really is a lemon. Given infinite feats, I would eventually take it for giggles, but there are so many better feats that it just won't make it into any build that I could bare considering.
Lomiat 06-16-06, 11:56 PM	I'm generally of the opinion that there are better feats to buy than Whirlwind Attack, but to play Pit Fiend's Advocate, I will argue that there are builds that could put it to great effect, notably high-movement characters designed to move into the middle of a bunch of bad guys and hit them all on the first round (and, then, one presumes, each ensuing round). Someone argue that there's a very narrow APL range at which Whirlwind might be better than a full attack action, but that's not really the case. Even once the character (with Cleave) gets an iterative attack, that 2nd attack comes at 1 BAB. The question, really, amounts to how many bad guys a Whirlwind Attacker needs within reach to make the feat pay off. At low levels, the answer is 2. After the Power Attack-Cleave guy gets the iterative attack, the answer is still 2 when the bad guys either: a) drop ridiculously easy (as in one hit apiece), or b) are tough (as in one hit won't fell either). The answer is 3 if the difference in converting the attribute bonus to hit (assuming you buy more STR and less INT) into power attack allows you to fell one and Cleave into the next. Now, it's interesting that Whirlwind Attack requires Spring Attack because, though I suspect it wouldn't work, Whirlwind Attack states that it "replaces" your attacks. Theoretically, you could drop it in the middle of a Spring Attack; again, I don't thiink that's the case, but this could easily result in a "broken" tactic. Finally, while you can't take "extra" attacks from Cleave, Improved Trip, etc., you could use your initial melee attack against all combatants to trip them or take some other sort of attack (I'm thinking this could be really abusive when the Improved Initiative wizard casts Greater Invis on the high-damage output Rogue who then goes into the middle of the bad guys and Whirlwind Attacks them all with Power Attack and Staggering Strike--yes, this theoretical rogue has, probably, 2 levels of Fighter). In other words, Whirlwind Attack requires 13 INT for a reason; it's not a simple, bone-cruncher's brainless combat option; it's a tactical feat that requires some imagination to make work.
Arvagor 06-17-06, 09:52 AM	Now, it's interesting that Whirlwind Attack requires Spring Attack because, though I suspect it wouldn't work, Whirlwind Attack states that it "replaces" your attacks. Theoretically, you could drop it in the middle of a Spring Attack; again, I don't thiink that's the case, but this could easily result in a "broken" tactic.Spring Attack states you're using the attack action (a stabdard action), while Whirlwind Attack requires you to use a full attack action (a full-round action), so you cannot combine the two...
Lomiat 06-17-06, 02:10 PM	I was looking for the words "full-attack" but couldn't find them earlier because I was too tired. I guess, though, that you could take enough levels of Marshal to grant yourself a free Move Action and then Whirlwind Attack (or play with a regular group of players--one a Marshal and one a Whirlwind Attacker). Or just have the fighter delay until the Wizard/Sorceror Dim Doors him into position (or uses Slide/Glide--whichever--if they find access to the limited spell).
DuctShuiTengu 06-17-06, 03:04 PM	Someone argue that there's a very narrow APL range at which Whirlwind might be better than a full attack action, but that's not really the case. Even once the character (with Cleave) gets an iterative attack, that 2nd attack comes at 1 BAB. The question, really, amounts to how many bad guys a Whirlwind Attacker needs within reach to make the feat pay off. At low levels, the answer is 2. After the Power Attack-Cleave guy gets the iterative attack, the answer is still 2 when the bad guys either: a) drop ridiculously easy (as in one hit apiece), or b) are tough (as in one hit won't fell either). The answer is 3 if the difference in converting the attribute bonus to hit (assuming you buy more STR and less INT) into power attack allows you to fell one and Cleave into the next. I'm going to have to disagree here. As was pointed out earlier, while Whirlwind attack may not need many people around you for it to allow you to get in more hits than you would otherwise, that still generally doesn't make it a better tactic than focusing the attacks you'd have normally on one of the people within reach. The reason being that a badly injured opponent can still hit just as hard as one who's still at full health. (as someone who's had chars killed by an NPC who was staggered, I've seen this demonstrated quite effectively.) If you take your iterative attacks all against one of the people you can reach, you may not get as many hits in total, and you may not do as much over-all damage, but if you kill that NPC with one of your iterative attacks, it's one less person who can hit you back when it gets to be their turn (this is especially valuable when the 2 opponents you were quoting earlier are Rogues and were counting on each-other to provide flanks so they could get their sneak attack damage. (been in that situation too. a pair of 5th level rogues who've taken TWF are going to be looking at an extra 12d6 of sneak attack damage if they get that flank. At 6th level, that's a heck of a lot.)) Sure, you're not as likely to hit with that second attack just full-attacking the normal way, but when you're potentially looking at your PC getting killed if you don't drop one of your opponents before they get their next attack off... Which brings us to another problem with Whirlwind attack. To really make full use of it, you have to have a lot more enemies around you than is really healthy. Sure, you might be able to get in 5 or 6 hits with it instead of just 1 or two, but you're also setting yourself up to have 5 or 6 people hit you right back. Now, against weaker opponents who are generally going to drop with 1 hit, Whirlwind attack is almost as effective as Great Cleave (I say almost because with Great Cleave, if one of them does survive the first hit, you've got your second one to try to finish them off with (and potentially Cleave some more off of it). But then, as has already been pointed out, most LG mods (at least from what I've seen) aren't pitting you against hordes of mooks that die that easily, and in general, those mooks weren't going to be that dangerous even if you took an extra round or two to kill them all. Now, using Whirlwind Attack with Improved Trip or Improved Disarm to disable a group of opponents sounds like it could have something going for it (assuming you don't have the bad fortune of being tripped or disarmed by the first guy), but that's now a 6th feat (admittedly, not a bad 6th feat (neither were some of the others IMHO), but it's still making this rather costly) that you're having to take to pull this off.
Sect 06-26-06, 02:58 PM	That same fighter is better off power attacking and great cleaving the horde of peons. Assuming that the same fighter can drop all of them. It's a good tactic, but it's a gamble; what if he misses the first target? His attack's then ruined for the rest of the round. With Whirlwind attack, you still have the X number of attacks left. Not that either of the tactics are better than each other, of course.
thorinXXX 06-27-06, 11:37 AM	Assuming that the same fighter can drop all of them. It's a good tactic, but it's a gamble; what if he misses the first target? His attack's then ruined for the rest of the round. With Whirlwind attack, you still have the X number of attacks left. Not that either of the tactics are better than each other, of course. Iterative attack(s). By the time you get whirlwind attack you have to have multiple attacks. If you are missing all of the time you would have missed with your whirlwind attacks too.
Arvagor 06-27-06, 02:32 PM	Iterative attack(s). By the time you get whirlwind attack you have to have multiple attacks.Not necessarily. Perfectly serviceable Rog/Ftr builds could have the feat combo at character level 6, but only have BAB +5 (generally a Rog4/Ftr2 build)
rogerd 06-27-06, 02:38 PM	I wonder if the Whirlwind attack would work for a Monk? For the sake of argument: Human Monk, Str 14, Dex 14, Con 12, INT 14, WIS 14, CHA 8 1: Stunning Fist, Flurry, Improved Unarmed Strike, Dodge, Mobility 2: Combat Reflexes 3: Combat Expertise 4: +WIS 6: Improved Trip, Spring Attack 8: +WIS 9: Whirlwind Attack 7 skills: tumble, jump, balance, climb, swim, move silently, hide, (or to taste) Here is a very skilled, defensive-minded character who can move almost at will through the battlefield. At 2nd level, he picks up a spiked chain (or maybe a Guisarme) to use untrained. The basic plan is to use it only for tripping and Attacks of opportunity. The -4 isn't so bad as a touch attack (depending on your enemies) and the +4 and -4 cancel out for the follow-up attack. If they are close enough to you, you kick them instead. If you are against a group, you have a decent shot of positioning yourself such that you can do a whirlwind attack to trip all your opponents, possibly stunning one, provide flanking bonuses and prone bonuses/penalties, plus potential AOs to your friends. Then your front-line guys can beat down the bad guys with relative impunity. Against a single large enemy, you use your superior speed to spring attack for a stunning fist, possibly denying the opponent an action and inflicting at least some damage, and then jump away before they can retaliate. Obviously this won't work in every combat, but I can see it being very effective in the right circumstances. If nothing else, this kind of build could be used against the party to drain resources (healing spells, etc.). I can also see this sort of build being useful in a mop-up situation (after area effect spells, for instance). Of course Power Attack/Cleave/Great Cleave is easier, but this does have advantages. In particular, this build at 9th level before equipment can have an AC of 10 + 3 (Wisdom)+ 2 (Dex) + 1 (Monk bonus) + 5 (Combat Expertise) + 3 (Fight Defensively) = 24, unarmored, and a 28 vs. attacks of opportunity, with the ability to mostly avoid AOs and designate a dodge buddy for an additional +1. Of course you're taking a -9 to hit, so you may need to roll high. :)