Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Vamroc 06-04-07, 11:35 AM	How do I obtain a list of banned items in Keoland, Greyhawk ect. I don't want to spend my hard earned money buying some 3k item then travel to some place where it's banned. I've looked in the LGCS and the KMSG and have found no list.
Ralis 06-04-07, 11:38 AM	"banned" Items are the same as the Closed items on the LGCS. They are Potion of Shield, Ring of Shield, and Nightstick. If I have this wrong please correct me.
kenobi65 06-04-07, 11:43 AM	I think he's referring to "banned" as in "the legal authorities of this area do not allow characters to have such an item", rather than "Closed content in the LGCS". If that's the case: for Keoland, that's a great question for their triad. If such a list exists, they would be the ones to know where it is. For Greyhawk, I know that there are laws about what can be carried in the city (mostly related to weapons); I believe that those laws are spelled out in recent Cores set in the city.
Genghis Cohen 06-04-07, 12:09 PM	You can find the Keoland info here: http://keoland.sheldomar-valley.org/crimeandpunishment.pdf
gomeztoo 06-04-07, 12:17 PM	Sunndi: The following items are unavailable for purchase in Sunndi. The first list of items are illegal and additionally may not be crafted. Crafting or owning these items can have serious repurcursions. 1. Any item that permanently affects the free will of people (e.g. potion of love, rod of rulership) 2. Any item over which the owner does not have full control what will happen when its power is invoked (e.g. wand of wonder, mirror of opposition, well of the worlds) 3. Any item that clearly invokes unholy powers (e.g. dark skull, horn of evil, mask of the skull, robe of the archmagi (black), unholy weapons, assassin's dagger, life-drinker, nine lives stealer, sword of life stealing) 4. Items made out of the remains of sentient creatures (e.g. hand of glory, hand of the mage) The following items are not illegal, but they are simply impractical in Sunndi and therefor never crafted within Sunndi (and thus unavailable). 5. Items associated with the sea (folding boat, cloak of the manta ray). 6. Items associated with cold weather (boots of the winterland) - The sole area in Sunndi where it can get really cold is at the tops of the Glorioles. This is hardly a place were people go.
trollbill 06-04-07, 12:28 PM	Potion of Shield I always wondered why they bothered to ban something that is impossible to create.
Sieylianna 06-04-07, 12:37 PM	I always wondered why they bothered to ban something that is impossible to create. Because they were given out in modules in year 2 (?). Ed
TetsujinOni 06-04-07, 02:43 PM	End of the Keoland Meta Org Book CY596 contained a list and guidelines for determining if spells or items were banned in Keoland. Notably, Ray of Enfeeblement is among the spells you won't, for example, be able to learn through the Keoland National Academy of Wizardry, because of the Necromancy restrictions in the laws of Keoland.
Lupo 06-04-07, 04:46 PM	6. Items associated with cold weather (boots of the winterland) - The sole area in Sunndi where it can get really cold is at the tops of the Glorioles. This is hardly a place were people go. yea, and guess what happened to people who went there :evillaugh they were attacked by any sort of cold infused creature - of course on icy ground, where movement was hampered unless one had boots of the winterland. ciao martin m.
Vamroc 06-04-07, 10:07 PM	I got access to a Rod of Grievous Wounds via a favor and was informed the item was banned in Keoland. However I can't find any evidence that it really is banned and I can even get it with 20% percent off.
cycloptic_squirrel 06-04-07, 10:21 PM	It's actually kind of funny when you get access to items banned in a region on a regional AR. If you get access, you can still buy the items, the issue is that there are pretty stiff penalties if you are caught with a banned item on your person. You're allowed to freely give up any banned item to the Silent Ones before a mod without fear of punishment. Once the mod starts though... look out. (I don't think enough Keo judges remember this when they run, which is a shame.) I'd assume there'd be some sort of grace period for items looted during a mod, as long as they weren't used and you made a convincing argument that you were going to turn said items in just as soon as situation X blew over.
King Kashue 06-04-07, 11:29 PM	2. Any item over which the owner does not have full control what will happen when its power is invoked (e.g. wand of wonder, mirror of opposition, well of the worlds) Hell yes! As the True Disciple of Zagyg, my character is an illegal item in Sunndi!!! :D
Madfox11 06-05-07, 04:12 AM	People are always unpredictable, and being human is definitely not illegal in Sunndi. Mind you, the authorities have other things to do than search adventurers for contraband. Just don't use the stuff in front of somebody that recognize it is illegal, and if you absolutely have to, make sure you do it to rescue people. There are no Silent Ones or similar organizations, and this is not a statement akin to Keoland's denial of undead ;)
Lupo 06-05-07, 07:36 AM	Hell yes! As the True Disciple of Zagyg, my character is an illegal item in Sunndi!!! :D with the ongoing struggle against the invasion of the hordes of the bullywugs and wastrians, the authorities seem to have little resources to deal with such "negligible" transgressions - as long as you don't try to infuse a member of the royal family with a potion of love :evillaugh - look, they even associate with the ahlissans - for what price is unknown :P ciao martin m.
Bogjob 06-05-07, 07:41 AM	In Onnwal items like Hand of Glory (sentient creature parts) are banned. Also don't bring your Polearms as unless you are in the Onnwal military.
ezreal2001 06-05-07, 08:09 AM	Hell yes! As the True Disciple of Zagyg, my character is an illegal item in Sunndi!!! :D Gee all I got from Castle Greyhawk was the convention map and a Disciple of Zagyg cert.
TetsujinOni 06-05-07, 09:52 AM	The Rod of Grievous Wounds isn't explicitly covered by the Keoland banned item list, which I didn't have when I advised you I thought it was going to be banned in Keoland. It is at least of borderline legality: Criminal Activities is an attempt to undermine the social efforts of maintaining order, to destroy of property, or to harm an innocent citizen. Magical effects that change a person’s attitude, harm a person (physically or mentally), or hinder the person’s ability to defend themselves are also considered criminal acts. Spells and items: a. of a Necromantic nature and not listed as Forbidden, Mass Inflict Light Wounds is a Necromancy spell. It seems to be somewhere between an automatic Suspicion/Criminal Activity if it were recognized, and the low end of the Forbidden items. Until the MetaOrg lists get updated or Keoland regional flavor Triad notifies me otherwise, that's how I'd view it at a table I was running...
Samwise 06-05-07, 11:04 AM	There are no Silent Ones or similar organizations, and this is not a statement akin to Keoland's denial of undead ;) What denial of undead? :P
TetsujinOni 06-05-07, 11:43 AM	I think people frequently misinterpret the statement "There are no undead in Keoland". The correct pronunciation ends with any undead in reach getting the unliving snot pounded out of them by any handy Keoish soldiery.
thorinXXX 06-05-07, 12:58 PM	There are no undead in Keoland. There are, however, undocumented entities from Bissell.
King Kashue 06-05-07, 01:10 PM	People are always unpredictable, and being human is definitely not illegal in Sunndi. However, my character is a rod of wonder :D Well, technically, he can use the power as a spell-like ability...but that defeats the double entendre...:D Gee all I got from Castle Greyhawk was the convention map and a Disciple of Zagyg cert. Well, as far as I know, you were one of only 18 folks who got the Disciple cert, so it's a pretty selective group anyway :D
King Kashue 06-05-07, 01:11 PM	In Onnwal items like Hand of Glory (sentient creature parts) are banned. Also don't bring your Polearms as unless you are in the Onnwal military. Or a noble.
Genghis Cohen 06-05-07, 06:38 PM	There are no undead in Keoland.Not a single one. I promise. There are, however, undocumented entities from Bissell.Are you talking about the day laborers at the Von Reiklande estate?
IMarvinTPA 06-05-07, 08:30 PM	I'm guessing that wizards in this region like the spell Secret Chest ('href='http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/spells.php?ID=3444') a whole lot. "Sir, I do not have that item." IMarv
KarmaInferno 06-06-07, 04:08 PM	The Rod of Grievous Wounds isn't explicitly covered by the Keoland banned item list, which I didn't have when I advised you I thought it was going to be banned in Keoland. It is at least of borderline legality: Criminal Activities is an attempt to undermine the social efforts of maintaining order, to destroy of property, or to harm an innocent citizen. Magical effects that change a person’s attitude, harm a person (physically or mentally), or hinder the person’s ability to defend themselves are also considered criminal acts. Spells and items: a. of a Necromantic nature and not listed as Forbidden, Mass Inflict Light Wounds is a Necromancy spell. It seems to be somewhere between an automatic Suspicion/Criminal Activity if it were recognized, and the low end of the Forbidden items. Until the MetaOrg lists get updated or Keoland regional flavor Triad notifies me otherwise, that's how I'd view it at a table I was running... Ironically, Delay Death is illegal in Keoland. It is necromantic, but most certainly has a beneficial effect. Keeping a buddy alive til you can get proper treatment. In fact, it really only HAS a beneficial effect. I can't think of any ways it could be used offensively. -karma
Vamroc 06-06-07, 11:58 PM	Ironically, Delay Death is illegal in Keoland. It is necromantic, but most certainly has a beneficial effect. Keeping a buddy alive till you can get proper treatment. In fact, it really only HAS a beneficial effect. I can't think of any ways it could be used offensively. -karma Ahh but it could be use to torture someone. If you drop someone to neg 5 cast Delay Death and then use lesser viggor. You can wait till the person reaches 1 hit point and ensure an insta kill. Or use a dagger and drop him back to neg 5 and repeat proccess.
lunarfish 06-07-07, 12:35 AM	Ya know, I think my cleric would still prepare it anyway. It's effect is just to valuable to pass up. Luckily, odds are good that he'll never go to Keoland.
King Kashue 06-07-07, 01:24 AM	Ahh but it could be use to torture someone. If you drop someone to neg 5 cast Delay Death and then use lesser viggor. You can wait till the person reaches 1 hit point and ensure an insta kill. Or use a dagger and drop him back to neg 5 and repeat proccess. You know what else can be used to torture someone? Any healing spell, since delay death isn't in any way necessary for what you're describing (in fact, in the scenario you're describing, delay death isn't actually doing anything!)...
GreatSiron 06-07-07, 01:46 PM	Actually, what you do with delay death, is you cast it, then started mauling and cutting them. Cutting off limbs, ripping out organs, etc. No matter how low their HP goes, as long as raise dead could raise them, they won't die, so they will suffer.
King Kashue 06-07-07, 02:31 PM	Actually, what you do with delay death, is you cast it, then started mauling and cutting them. Cutting off limbs, ripping out organs, etc. No matter how low their HP goes, as long as raise dead could raise them, they won't die, so they will suffer. They still go unconscious as normal, so unless they're in positive hit points, they aren't awake to suffer.
GreatSiron 06-07-07, 02:48 PM	They still go unconscious as normal, so unless they're in positive hit points, they aren't awake to suffer. Really? Well then why did Keoland ban it? What possible negative use could it have? (Stupid imperalist Keolanders)
King Kashue 06-07-07, 03:04 PM	Really? Well then why did Keoland ban it? What possible negative use could it have? (Stupid imperalist Keolanders) You're looking for a reason why a bunch of uptight control freaks who busy themselves deciding what is and isn't good for everyone else chose to ban something? The answers the same for any such group...Because they could...
cycloptic_squirrel 06-08-07, 01:22 AM	Really? Well then why did Keoland ban it? What possible negative use could it have? (Stupid imperalist Keolanders) *whimper* I think it's more of a funtion of the Silent Ones. Note that the Silent Ones and Keoland are very distinct entities.
_metz_ 06-08-07, 01:30 AM	Lets not devolve into another 'Keoland' Bans stuff arguement :) Delay death HAS resulted in some issues. Perhaps it was a rule wise banning. I would like to add it could be viewed as a way to cheat death, hence the silent ones are against it. (Raise Dead is granted by a deity - thats different) The Silent ones would have difficulty opposing Deific wishes on such a mass scale. - I could see that as a reasonable arguement against it considering the conservative nutter Keolandish people.. (very anti undead, and it is a necromantic effect to cheat death) I know its a spell you just can't afford to NOT take and its not from the core books - so I would say its a bit overpowered. I play a cleric and prepare it every game. Also Lesser Vigor/Healthful Rest has removed the need for Cures out of combat. I just got adventure access to wands of them, its criminal not to buy, like 4. *Here - have 30 HPs...
Britt 06-08-07, 04:09 AM	When I was playing, I refused to prepare it on my clerics. I refuse to prepare it on my cleric in our home game, and the whole table agrees with it. I've played with others that refuse to prepare it as well, and I respect them for that decision. You can definitely afford to not take the spell, just like everyone who played before the spell came out.
Haro 06-08-07, 05:41 AM	When I was playing, I refused to prepare it on my clerics. I refuse to prepare it on my cleric in our home game, and the whole table agrees with it. I've played with others that refuse to prepare it as well, and I respect them for that decision. You can definitely afford to not take the spell, just like everyone who played before the spell came out. Amen to that. It seems many people refuse to use it nowadays. I think it takes out 70% of the risk in the game, thus making it much less enjoyable. Each to their own of course, I just refuse to accept it even if a cleric at the table has one prepared. Joe
gomeztoo 06-08-07, 07:27 AM	yea, and guess what happened to people who went there... Hey, didn't I just imply only the terminally foolish go there ? ;)
KarmaInferno 06-08-07, 10:47 AM	I would agree that it isn't NECESSARY, but it is damn useful to have it on tap. The most heavy use I got out of it was a 5-year arc endgame regional mod, don't remember the region, but it took place on a pocket demiplane, so no retreat or escape was likely. Lucky it wasn't Keoland, as my cleric is a Pholtan and will not under any circumstances knowingly break a law. :) I ended up burning 4 delay deaths (2 of them Chained), 4 Heal spells, a half dozen Cure Criticals, and uncountable other heals and buffs and fix-it spells. Ended up with less than a half dozen spells left, on a 14th level cleric. A Greater Dispel effect going off on a random party member every round did not help. The big bad kept two or three-shotting party members (Full hit points down to -20 in a single full attack, yeesh), and the only reason the party stayed alive was Delay Death, and that I was able to stay away from him, healing at range with Divine Reach. You know you're in trouble when the bad guy, all alone, motions for the party to fully buff up before he engages combat. :D -karma
Lupo 06-08-07, 11:09 AM	Hey, didn't I just imply only the terminally foolish go there ? ;) isn't that a synonym for "adventurers"???? :D ciao martin m.
_metz_ 06-08-07, 11:29 AM	I would agree that it isn't NECESSARY, but it is damn useful to have it on tap. The most heavy use I got out of it was a 5-year arc endgame regional mod, don't remember the region, but it took place on a pocket demiplane, so no retreat or escape was likely. Lucky it wasn't Keoland, as my cleric is a Pholtan and will not under any circumstances knowingly break a law. :) I ended up burning 4 delay deaths (2 of them Chained), 4 Heal spells, a half dozen Cure Criticals, and uncountable other heals and buffs and fix-it spells. Ended up with less than a half dozen spells left, on a 14th level cleric. A Greater Dispel effect going off on a random party member every round did not help. The big bad kept two or three-shotting party members (Full hit points down to -20 in a single full attack, yeesh), and the only reason the party stayed alive was Delay Death, and that I was able to stay away from him, healing at range with Divine Reach. You know you're in trouble when the bad guy, all alone, motions for the party to fully buff up before he engages combat. :D -karma snap
GreatSiron 06-08-07, 12:16 PM	I would agree that it isn't NECESSARY, but it is damn useful to have it on tap. The most heavy use I got out of it was a 5-year arc endgame regional mod, don't remember the region, but it took place on a pocket demiplane, so no retreat or escape was likely. Lucky it wasn't Keoland, as my cleric is a Pholtan and will not under any circumstances knowingly break a law. :) I ended up burning 4 delay deaths (2 of them Chained), 4 Heal spells, a half dozen Cure Criticals, and uncountable other heals and buffs and fix-it spells. Ended up with less than a half dozen spells left, on a 14th level cleric. A Greater Dispel effect going off on a random party member every round did not help. The big bad kept two or three-shotting party members (Full hit points down to -20 in a single full attack, yeesh), and the only reason the party stayed alive was Delay Death, and that I was able to stay away from him, healing at range with Divine Reach. You know you're in trouble when the bad guy, all alone, motions for the party to fully buff up before he engages combat. :D -karma I think I know the region. Was it Blighted Souls? That was a nasty Yeomanry mod, but the rewards were worth it.
King Kashue 06-08-07, 07:26 PM	When I was playing, I refused to prepare it on my clerics. I refuse to prepare it on my cleric in our home game, and the whole table agrees with it. I've played with others that refuse to prepare it as well, and I respect them for that decision. You can definitely afford to not take the spell, just like everyone who played before the spell came out. The best way I've seen it used was the same way I saw Divine Spell Power + Holy Word used. The Cleric would only cast it if the consensus was "this fight is broken" :D Losing a fair fight, someone dies, it's the breaks. Losing a stacked fight, out come the big guns. ;) I don't care either way, I'll accept it if someone has it (and I was glad someone did in the 'stacked fight' to which I'm specifically referring), but I'll never insist someone take it... If the duration were shorter, it'd be more balanced. Personally, I think close wounds is the better solution. Quick jolt of small healing. There's still such a thing as "too dead" :D
pedr 06-08-07, 07:43 PM	Right, but close wounds is not generally open, and delay death is. My dumb offensive wood elf scout/ranger/barbarian has access to close wounds twice. My Radiant Servant of Pelor hasn't quite worked out the right ritual to convince the god of Healing to help his friends out in this way. Which is particularly galling as he's currently battling a rather large army in Sterich alongside a particularly obnoxious Cleric of Joramy. Who must have caught the Shrew on an off-day, as she can cast the blasted spell!
King Kashue 06-08-07, 08:37 PM	Who must have caught the Shrew on an off-day, as she can cast the blasted spell! Naw...All Clerics of Joramy have to do to get access is yell at the heavens loud enough :D
NiTessine 06-08-07, 09:43 PM	In the Principality of Naerie, the following items are banned: Armour: demon armour, energy drain, undead controlling. Weapons: assassin's dagger, life drinker, nine lives stealer, sword of life stealing, unholy, slaying arrow (human, elf, dwarf, gnome, or halfling). Potions and Scrolls: animate dead (you know, it's a really good thing that even if the authorities ever get hold of my spellbooks, they still need to succeed at a Spellcraft check to figure them out), contagion, contagious touch, create undead, create greater undead, curse of lycanthropy, curse water, desecrate, epidemic, eyebite, ghoul touch, plague of rats, bone arrow. Rods and Staves: rod of lordly might (without special permission), staff of necromancy, rod of rulership (except for Prince Barzhaan Haxx). Wondrous Items: bag of tricks (all varieties; this is due to player actions), black patch, darkskull, eyes of charming, eyes of dark aura, eyes of petrification, hand of glory, hand of the mage, helm of telepathy, horn of Valhalla, Daern's instant fortress, mattock of the titans, medallion of thoughts, mask of the dead, mask of the skull, orb of storms, robe of bones. Punishment for carrying any of these is confiscation of the item and a fine of 50%-80% of the item's worth.
Hariman 06-11-07, 12:36 AM	People are always unpredictable, and being human is definitely not illegal in Sunndi. Mind you, the authorities have other things to do than search adventurers for contraband. Just don't use the stuff in front of somebody that recognize it is illegal, and if you absolutely have to, make sure you do it to rescue people. There are no Silent Ones or similar organizations, and this is not a statement akin to Keoland's denial of undead ;) And I quote: "There are no undead in Keoland. They're all under Keoland." Amen to that. It seems many people refuse to use it nowadays. I think it takes out 70% of the risk in the game, thus making it much less enjoyable. Each to their own of course, I just refuse to accept it even if a cleric at the table has one prepared. Joe Doesn't refusing the spell mean that you must save against it or take the effect anyway? And as for using or not using delay death... I agree with the "Only if they have it anyway" crowd. I have to say that I'd accept it without hesitation, barring some strange circumstances. I don't know anyone that likes playing through a prior level again. I certainly don't. I've already had to do it twice with one character I'd rather only have to do it one more time. I got a reincarnate favor that lets my character come back as his original self the next time he gets reincarnated. And with my luck, he'll never get to use it!
The_Jester 06-11-07, 12:48 AM	The best way I've seen it used was the same way I saw Divine Spell Power + Holy Word used. The Cleric would only cast it if the consensus was "this fight is broken" :D Losing a fair fight, someone dies, it's the breaks. Losing a stacked fight, out come the big guns. ;) I don't care either way, I'll accept it if someone has it (and I was glad someone did in the 'stacked fight' to which I'm specifically referring), but I'll never insist someone take it... If the duration were shorter, it'd be more balanced. Personally, I think close wounds is the better solution. Quick jolt of small healing. There's still such a thing as "too dead" :D Yeah, but sometimes it's just necessary. Had a couple hard broken VTF mods where it was the only think that prevented a TPK. Twice. Our back-up fighter was knocked down to -20 odd with all his temporary hit points. They also had diehard so he was still helping in the fight. It was scary, he was just about to level up from that mod so he really did not want to die. And I think our main tank took like 200 points of damage over the entire mod.
King Kashue 06-11-07, 04:09 AM	Yeah, but sometimes it's just necessary. Had a couple hard broken VTF mods where it was the only think that prevented a TPK. Twice. Our back-up fighter was knocked down to -20 odd with all his temporary hit points. They also had diehard so he was still helping in the fight. It was scary, he was just about to level up from that mod so he really did not want to die. And I think our main tank took like 200 points of damage over the entire mod. Meh...I've taken 400+ over three rounds before :D And as I said, the times I think it's appropriate are the times when the consensus is "mod is cracked, we're just gonna try and stay alive"...
Madfox11 06-11-07, 09:32 AM	Funny. People complain about how boring death is and how meaningless if not downright beneficial it becomes due to raise dead, and when the designers than offer something that actually reduces the amount of deaths they complain about how it cheapens the risk. Make up your mind people ;) Remember, all delay death does is prevent deaths that can be countered with raise dead. So instead of waiting half the adventure borred silly to get that spell cast, or worse, completely derail the adventure while the other PCs scramble to get a raise dead, they now have to wait until after the fight. Besides, the spell doesn't take away the risk of death. It just lowers the chance. It didn't help the paladin who was stupid enough to charge an opponent while wounded while the rest was retreating (out of line of effect of the cleric and the monster would have finished the paladin off the next round due to lack of opponents). It didn't help the PC who misjudged the strength of opponents, although it did save him from permanent removal by being eaten by barghest (it bought him another round so the others could close in and DD away with the now corpse). It didn't help the PCs when they severely misjudged the damage of a breath weapon even though they had 1 full round to prepare for its arrival (when two PCs are going to drop you have to choose who to save). Nor did it save the PC who was stupid enough to keep fighting due to the Die Hard feat next to a cleric of Nerull... I felt no pitty at all to use that death touch ability. The players in my area realize that if this spell saved their character's life that it had been a dangerous risky fight and that by no way they are in the clear when it is running. In fact, it makes them vulenerable to much more costly ways of dieing.
The_Jester 06-11-07, 10:22 AM	Meh...I've taken 400+ over three rounds before Nasty, at what APL?
Timlagor 06-11-07, 11:10 AM	Well I was glad to have it when we miraculously defeated the EL11* at APL6 in a mod that has been much commented upon. I do think the game would be better without it though (and much better without EL11 encounters at APL6). I never like dieing but I don't usually mind playing through the level again. Logically I know it lets me get more gp/xp and play the character longer but that's not the point. * I haven't seen the excuses in the mod yet but I'm pretty sure it was comfortably EL11 (if not EL12 once you include all the circumstances). I have now read that part of the mod and there is no explanation for why a (strong) CR10 creature in very favourable circumstances merits being an EL9 encounter. (I'll write to the author but it's a known Mod)
King Kashue 06-11-07, 11:23 AM	Nasty, at what APL? APL 12.
King Kashue 06-11-07, 11:25 AM	Funny. People complain about how boring death is and how meaningless if not downright beneficial it becomes due to raise dead, and when the designers than offer something that actually reduces the amount of deaths they complain about how it cheapens the risk. Make up your mind people ;) It's likely not the same people complaining about both, so I'm not sure you're actually hitting too many folks with your comment... And your fellow Circle member is one of the biggest opponents to the spell, so it doesn't seem universally loved or hated at any level ;)
The_Jester 06-11-07, 11:39 AM	APL 12. 4 higher than we were. I'd never seen the spell cast before and I'm sure there are far better 4th-level spells out there but all I know is it saved a guy from taking a hit of a level and a half (from just about 8 to 6 1/2).
Britt 06-11-07, 01:13 PM	Just a point of interest: saying that a TPK was only prevented by delay death does not mean that the combat was broken or that delay death is balanced. TPKs will happen in D&D, or rather should, even with balanced encounters. It might have been that the party was underpowered compared to what they should be, that they made horrible tactical errors, or that the dice were horrendously against them that day. My opinion on delay death is based on the fact that this game requires a certain risk of death to be any fun for a large portion of gamers. Most gamers probably don't even realize this, but what fun would the game be if you had no need whatsoever to improve character builds and tactics in order to decrease the risk of dieing? That is part of the fun of the game. The problem is that once you decrease the risk past a certain point, the game ceases to be fun. At this point, the player either quits playing, plays but doesn't enjoy the game as much, or recognizes the problem and starts curbing their attempts to powergame (that's what I had to do to keep having fun with D&D). Delay death, imo, reduces the threat level below the necessary threat level for fun. On the other hand, as Circle, I want people dieing as little as possible, to avoid messing up GP:XP curves. That's something I always think about; when I'm reviewing adventures, I make sure the awarded XP and GP are at similar levels relative to their respective caps. Similarly, if people die too often, they start losing interest in the game. So, in the end, you have to play a balancing act between too little and too much death. You need some, but you can't eliminate too much. Too much drift in either direction will decrease the amount of fun for most players. Sure, there are exceptions, people that would have fun with no risk of death or huge risks of death, but they are the exceptions and should not be the target audience.
Madfox11 06-12-07, 04:47 AM	Delay death, imo, reduces the threat level below the necessary threat level for fun. I haven't seen that happen at all. The spell appears at APL 6 for the first time, and it has to compete with so many other equally good spells, chances are that there would have been better choices than delay death (freedom of movement and death ward immediately spring to mind) at APL 6 and 8. It really starts to appear at APL 10+, but when I look at the deaths on my tables on those APLs it has not been hit points at all but that dreaded natural 1 to spells such as wail of the banshee or massive damage. The sole exception was if I remember correctly a PC out of reach of the spell and at APL 10 I have seen a fighter die in the surprise round (3 charching minotaur barbarians and the fighter was the only target ::shiver::). The other examples of deaths on my tables where all in the last three months and all at APL 8 and 10 with experienced players who do use that particular spell.
Britt 06-12-07, 05:13 AM	I have seen it save lives many, many times in the BK, and people in this thread have mentioned it saving lives multiple times as well. Perhaps it is just a difference in typical monsters used in different regions. I agree at APL 6 and maybe 8 it loses out to death ward and maybe freedom of movement, but at APL 10+, it is too common for my tastes. Of course, I also think death ward and, to a lesser extent, freedom of movement are a bit too good for level four spells :)
Madfox11 06-12-07, 09:40 AM	Of course I have seen it save lives, but so have many other spells. That in itself is not an argument about game balance. You said it reduced the risk for death below a certain treshhold. I just said, I haven't seen that happen, certainly not at APL 10 and lower, perhaps at APL 12 and above. There is not a real big sample of those high APLs around here to be honest, but at those APLs raise dead is too cheap anyway, and I can see that the designers want to make sure deaths on these APLs are due to ressurection and true ressurection type of deaths to keep xp:gp ratio in line.
Lupo 06-12-07, 11:37 AM	Of course I have seen it save lives, but so have many other spells. That in itself is not an argument about game balance. You said it reduced the risk for death below a certain treshhold. I just said, I haven't seen that happen, certainly not at APL 10 and lower, perhaps at APL 12 and above. There is not a real big sample of those high APLs around here to be honest, but at those APLs raise dead is too cheap anyway, and I can see that the designers want to make sure deaths on these APLs are due to ressurection and true ressurection type of deaths to keep xp:gp ratio in line. the problem is, sometimes/often death above APL 8 or 10 isn't due to hit points lost to weapon damage, but due to magical effects or some other nasty occurrence ;) both my high characters have died once, one at level 7 with a really silly and unlucky combination of a failed save vs. a fireball the other at level 10 while being wildshaped, hit by the zillionst-desintegrate-ray-from-an-eye-made-the-save-lost-some-hp anti-magic-eye-opens-wildshape-goes-away-dead-with-minus-23 (prior to wildshape nerfing) there was nothing to do about both deaths, even with delay death or close wounds. ciao martin m.
Maesto 06-13-07, 10:34 AM	Another discussion on delay death? Oh, count me in... Recent PC deaths I've seen: * Party was TPKed, all characters left unconscious and bleeding. Start rolling those stabilisation checks, guys. * Party got hit flatfooted, no delay death there * PC failed save to a finger of death * Multiple PCs requiring delay death in one round - only one can be dropped each round I'm yet to kill a PC by dispelling delay death... Once the cleric has gone in initiative, PC deaths become unlikely in that encounter. Usually it's pretty tough to drop one PC, let alone multiple, especially at the higher APLs. However, given a really nasty combat or death effects, there's naught to be done. Keep the spell in there - it's useful for players who don't want to play tactically. Parties who want to enjoy the game don't need to prepare it. My 2 chickens :)
Mattastrophic 06-13-07, 12:36 PM	Delay Death actually makes playing a cleric more fun, as suddenly you have the challenge of keeping everyone "covered" by your healing, with Delay Death to deal with a spike of damage. It brings another dimension to managing your healing spells. Also, if an author/DM thinks it's too good on the side of players, why not just accept it's there and modify tactics to take it into account? Anti-Delay Death Tactics: -Dispel Magic -Spell Immunity cast offensively -Readying actions to disrupt the cleric. -Antimagic Field, cast on a familiar, who then darts over and "kills" the PC -Telekinesis, to get the target out of range -Counterspelling -Wall of Force, to block line of effect -Silence -Distract Assailant, or any other effect that makes the cleric flatfooted -Disintegrate, especially once the target is within 5d6 range -Or heck, just create a huge opportunity cost for the party to save their friend! The methods of dealing with Delay Death are there. -Matt
Mattastrophic 06-13-07, 12:46 PM	On the other hand, as Circle, I want people dieing as little as possible, to avoid messing up GP:XP curves. That's something I always think about; when I'm reviewing adventures, I make sure the awarded XP and GP are at similar levels relative to their respective caps. Similarly, if people die too often, they start losing interest in the game. So, in the end, you have to play a balancing act between too little and too much death. You need some, but you can't eliminate too much. Too much drift in either direction will decrease the amount of fun for most players. Now that we have two Circle members on the line... so how is the campaign doing with regards to the amount of deaths? Are you guys planning to nudge the campaign as a whole, or at least the Cores, towards more deadly or less deadly than it is now? -Matt
Britt 06-13-07, 01:36 PM	When you have to plan for ways to deal with one spell to keep the death rate appropriate, all because of one spell, there is a problem with that spell, imo. We don't have any feedback on number of deaths campaign wide. Creighton handles Cores completely, with some feedback from us, and the Core writing guidelines indicate a likely decrease in death rate for those starting late last year. IUZ metaregionals seem about on track. We had a run of less deadly mods than normal for a while, but I had one author write a recent IUZ mod in the more meat-grinder, deadlier vein they have been known for. It's a bit rough at the lower end of the APL spread, and can be downright brutal at the upper end of the APL spread, as I think it should be. The regionals within IUZ I pretty much leave up to the Triads, as long as they don't go over the top on deadliness. My personal opinion on deadliness is that deaths at APLs 2 and 4 should be extremely rare, with frequency scaling up as APL increases, making APL 14 and 16 adventures somewhat deadly for average to below average parties. I also think that deadliness should scale from intro mods, to regionals/cores, to metaregionals, to core specials. So APL 16 Core Specials should be the most deadly thing to play, on average. On that note, I'm writing the high-APL GenCon Core Special, so bring your A game :devil: Oh, and blame me for deaths, not Creighton. He said I can do what I want as long as it's clear who to blame, hehehe.
King Kashue 06-13-07, 01:56 PM	but I had one author write a recent IUZ mod in the more meat-grinder, deadlier vein they have been known for. Considering the nature of the last fight in Lost but not Forgotten, your statement worries me to no end...
Britt 06-13-07, 01:58 PM	Considering the nature of the last fight in Lost but not Forgotten, your statement worries me to no end... Man, that was early year 5, way before my time as Circle or even metarep. I'm talking about mid to late year 6 through early year 7.
Mattastrophic 06-13-07, 02:02 PM	So APL 16 Core Specials should be the most deadly thing to play, on average. Hehehe, they probably should be, if they actually existed anymore, of course. So it sounds like the Cores are going to become easier? Also, Delay Death is perfectly in line with an L4 Cleric spell. If a Cleric can Raise the Dead as an L5 spell, then being able to prevent (or Delay) a Death is perfect for an L4 spell. We'll talk about it more come February, I'm guessing. P.S. Put something badass in the special for me at 14, okay? My elf thirsts for drow blood. -Matt aka Solaufyn Ithilnelle, grey elf Virtuoso
Britt 06-13-07, 02:05 PM	P.S. Put something badass in the special for me at 14, okay? My elf thirsts for drow blood. Drow blood? This is White Plume Mountain. I don't recall any drow connections to WPM in canon at all. It's all ice paraelementals.
Mattastrophic 06-13-07, 02:08 PM	Drow blood? This is White Plume Mountain. I don't recall any drow connections to WPM in canon at all. It's all ice paraelementals. Well, you... said... GenCon... *DOH!* I was thinking Origins Core Special, wasn't I. O well. -Matt
Britt 06-13-07, 02:10 PM	Well, you... said... GenCon... *DOH!* I was thinking Origins Core Special, wasn't I. The Origins special was written by Creighton and Colleen. I think they're both nicer than I am though ;) I don't know, I suppose there might be some sort of canonical drow connection for that one ;)
King Kashue 06-13-07, 02:31 PM	Man, that was early year 5, way before my time as Circle or even metarep. I'm talking about mid to late year 6 through early year 7. Glad to know you weren't involved with that. :D
Lupo 06-13-07, 02:32 PM	When you have to plan for ways to deal with one spell to keep the death rate appropriate, all because of one spell, there is a problem with that spell, imo. We don't have any feedback on number of deaths campaign wide. Creighton handles Cores completely, with some feedback from us, and the Core writing guidelines indicate a likely decrease in death rate for those starting late last year. IUZ metaregionals seem about on track. We had a run of less deadly mods than normal for a while, but I had one author write a recent IUZ mod in the more meat-grinder, deadlier vein they have been known for. It's a bit rough at the lower end of the APL spread, and can be downright brutal at the upper end of the APL spread, as I think it should be. The regionals within IUZ I pretty much leave up to the Triads, as long as they don't go over the top on deadliness. My personal opinion on deadliness is that deaths at APLs 2 and 4 should be extremely rare, with frequency scaling up as APL increases, making APL 14 and 16 adventures somewhat deadly for average to below average parties. I also think that deadliness should scale from intro mods, to regionals/cores, to metaregionals, to core specials. So APL 16 Core Specials should be the most deadly thing to play, on average. On that note, I'm writing the high-APL GenCon Core Special, so bring your A game :devil: Oh, and blame me for deaths, not Creighton. He said I can do what I want as long as it's clear who to blame, hehehe. so far deadliness in LG seems quite "moderate" and "appropriate" ;) two character deaths in some 150 ARs :rolleyes: some half dozen of situations close down to -10. luckily no unrecoverable death or TPK so far :cool: in your scaling you omitted battle interactives, something that can easily go as horrific as core specials :eek: last year's ekbirian fall battle interactive mashed one of the tables at the con repeatedly, one character died twice during the three consecutive tasks - and their fail made it harder for all the other tables :rolleyes:. ciao martin m.
Sieylianna 06-13-07, 05:20 PM	My experience on deaths has been a lot of deaths at APL 2 with the number of deaths decreasing as APL rose. I don't know that I've ever seen a PC death above APL 12 (and I took my first character to 18th). Ed
Hariman 06-13-07, 08:50 PM	My personal opinion on deadliness is that deaths at APLs 2 and 4 should be extremely rare, with frequency scaling up as APL increases, making APL 14 and 16 adventures somewhat deadly for average to below average parties. I also think that deadliness should scale from intro mods, to regionals/cores, to metaregionals, to core specials. So APL 16 Core Specials should be the most deadly thing to play, on average. On that note, I'm writing the high-APL GenCon Core Special, so bring your A game :devil: Oh, and blame me for deaths, not Creighton. He said I can do what I want as long as it's clear who to blame, hehehe. Intro to cores/regionals to metaregionals to core specials?. In keoland, we compare the tougher core specials to Keoland Regionals and Sheldomar Valley metaregionals. Heck, Dominion on Bright Sands is said to be as difficult as a Keoland Regional. (By the more experienced players/DMs in our LG group.) Which says something. For the most part, Keoland's difficulty curve is: Intros/cores are easiest. Mostly. Keoland Regionals are next in line. And some are pretty deadly. Visitors to Keoland can attest to that. Core Specials can get harder than Keoland Regionals. But they're not usually THAT hard, from what I've seen. Sheldomar Valley Metaregionals top this list. They are TOUGH. Personally, I've seen more deaths at lower APLs than higher ones. Especially at the lowest APLs. It is REALLY easy to get killed from levels one to three. It tends to drop off somewhat from there as players get more experienced and characters become more durable. Britt, you really have to plan for delay death to keep the death/survival curve "normal" while writing a mod?
Genghis Cohen 06-13-07, 09:14 PM	Heck, Dominion on Bright Sands is said to be as difficult as a Keoland Regional. (By the more experienced players/DMs in our LG group.) Which says something.I found Dominion to be tougher than every Sheldomar metaregional that I've played except for SHE5-05 Eye of the Storm, and tougher than every Keoland mod that I've played except for KEO5-06 A Tale of Two Lions.
Hariman 06-13-07, 10:35 PM	I found Dominion to be tougher than every Sheldomar metaregional that I've played except for SHE5-05 Eye of the Storm, and tougher than every Keoland mod that I've played except for KEO5-06 A Tale of Two Lions. Whoa. Without spoilers, what APL and what party mix? And which region are you from? I've seen other core mods range from hated (For me) to well liked (The guy that succeeded and didn't get one of the Worst AR Items (Disfavor? Penalty?) In LG) all because of party makeup.
Genghis Cohen 06-14-07, 12:21 AM	Whoa. Without spoilers, what APL and what party mix? And which region are you from? I've seen other core mods range from hated (For me) to well liked (The guy that succeeded and didn't get one of the Worst AR Items (Disfavor? Penalty?) In LG) all because of party makeup.I'm from Keoland with over 40 KEO ARs, including intros, interactives and special missions. It was APL8 with my optimized 9th level tank, one 8th level cleric, one 7th level Radiant Servant of Pelor, one 6th level wizard, one 7th level archer, one 8th level ranger/rogue. I'll post more details in January.
Madfox11 06-14-07, 04:05 AM	As an author I would consider a TPK a failure on my side unless the DM or the players are clearly to blame. I consider an adventure a success if at some point the players felt that their characters' lives were at stake. I certainly don't aim to kill them. So if I hear that many PCs dropped below zero, or where on the verge of being killed, but nobody actually did, than I consider that much more a success than when I hear multiple PCs died in the same encounter (crocodiles are incorrectly CRed... I still feel bad about that encounter). As for a spell being wrong because you are looking for counterspells: I take it you consider freedom of movement, death ward, silence, glitterdust, wall of thorns, spike growth, spike stones, animal growth and a whole lot of other spells in a similar vein? (Can you tell I am running Red Hand with a tactical strong druid? There are some pretty wrong druid spells out there even though they might be very environment specific, when you can cast them, they do ruin the encounter.)
Britt 06-14-07, 09:32 AM	Yes, actually, I consider all those spells too good for their level.
King Kashue 06-14-07, 11:54 AM	Yes, actually, I consider all those spells too good for their level. Animal growth? It's a fifth level spell and is a min/level combat buff. Fifth level spells are some hoofa spells, it seems relatively inline to me.
Britt 06-14-07, 11:59 AM	Ok, probably not animal growth. I just remember it being really good whenever it was cast, but I haven't played a druid of that level before. At 5th level, that seems fairly balanced.
King Kashue 06-14-07, 12:37 PM	Ok, probably not animal growth. I just remember it being really good whenever it was cast, but I haven't played a druid of that level before. At 5th level, that seems fairly balanced. Where it does get sick (at least in theory) is when you cast it on your animal companion and a 12th level Bear Warrior who's already got 200+ hit points, a 42 str, and a +31 grapple check :D Of course, I have yet to play with a druid or wizard who could do that :mad:
KShaver 06-14-07, 01:59 PM	It might have been that the party was underpowered compared to what they should be, that they made horrible tactical errors, or that the dice were horrendously against them that day. My opinion on delay death is based on the fact that this game requires a certain risk of death to be any fun for a large portion of gamers. True, the risk of occasional death from a freak crit or a player who does something totally mindless should occur,but all too often you see a GM softball situations like that where one or two players should die. There is also the common problem of encounters meant to kill more than 1 or 2 players. I see ELs miscalculated or purposefully made misleeding all the time. In those situations I don't mind seeing delay death used.
Hariman 06-14-07, 02:43 PM	I'm from Keoland with over 40 KEO ARs, including intros, interactives and special missions. It was APL8 with my optimized 9th level tank, one 8th level cleric, one 7th level Radiant Servant of Pelor, one 6th level wizard, one 7th level archer, one 8th level ranger/rogue. I'll post more details in January. Seems like you might have been short on Arcane and a little bit below the APL. Which I doubt made much difference. Hopefully, the upcoming table of Dominion get another player or three so I can play it next week. We've only got three players right now. My area has the problem of being short on players with higher level characters.
Timlagor 06-15-07, 10:53 AM	I don't think it's a spoiler to say that Dominion (APL6) has an encounter that looks to me like a clear EL11 (if not 12) and rates it EL9 ...you seriously don't want to face that with an APL5.8 party.
Hariman 06-15-07, 10:40 PM	I don't think it's a spoiler to say that Dominion (APL6) has an encounter that looks to me like a clear EL11 (if not 12) and rates it EL9 ...you seriously don't want to face that with an APL5.8 party. It sounds like this is the typical, seen it more than once, under CR'd, terrain not taken into account, EL miscalculated, enemies given every advantage (Including a surprise round and prebuffing) BS that I've seen before. So I have this to say: My character has died twice already. He's been enslaved for 20+ TUs. He is now a SHE twice over thanks to reincarnate. He's been in the negatives at least a dozen times, possible more, and has stabilized at minus nine multiple times, both with and without the aid of the Second Wind card. (Beating that 90% chance to die is FUN.) He's lived through Forest of Scales and died in it's predecessor Forest of Ribbons (And FoR is known as "Cutting the PCs to Ribbons") He's survived sword, spell, party fragmentation and worse. If he dies, I have a reincarnate favor that lets him come back as HIS ORIGINAL SELF and another favor that gives me one reincarnate for material costs only. If it's a permanent death, I'll work the kinks out of his original build and start over from scratch. The second Nevix Astari would have mysterious tattoos of people he never knew and memories of dying more than once. And I've heard that Dominion is a really cool mod SO: I'll take my chances. Sincerely, Hariman PS: Maybe I'll rejoin the once a month Dave Arneson's Blackmoor games that killed my DAB sorcerer TWICE IN ONE MOD as a reminder that LG isn't all that bad, considering how bad it can get. And one of those deaths was on the first attack the character ever took.
Hariman 06-23-07, 10:57 PM	I don't think it's a spoiler to say that Dominion (APL6) has an encounter that looks to me like a clear EL11 (if not 12) and rates it EL9 ...you seriously don't want to face that with an APL5.8 party. Sorry to Necromancer (AKA: Raise) a dead thread. And I'm sorry to double post. But you are right. My party had a decent amount of bad luck in that encounter. That under CR'd encounter is an easy EL 11 encounter or a low EL 12 encounter. I'm seriously wondering if the circle is trying to kill LG by "making things tougher to compensate for tougher powergamed PCs due to the addition of new splatbooks". Mod authors really need to take into account effects that aid the enemy and hamper the party. Not to mention circumstances which favor an enemy. If the Core mods get any tougher nobody will want to play because of how likely dying is. It's honestly going to start feeling like Living Blackmoor if this keeps up. (And blackmoor is old style D&D, where you would normally bring a backup for when your first guy dies.)
bitznarf 06-24-07, 01:20 AM	If the Core mods get any tougher nobody will want to play because of how likely dying is. It's honestly going to start feeling like Living Blackmoor if this keeps up. (And blackmoor is old style D&D, where you would normally bring a backup for when your first guy dies.) To be honest I've seen *most* Core mods as easier than the regional and meta-regional mods I have played since I started playing LG at the beginning of year 6. Mods like this one however don't fit that generalization. Or at least this mod at this APL.
Hariman 06-24-07, 12:09 PM	To be honest I've seen *most* Core mods as easier than the regional and meta-regional mods I have played since I started playing LG at the beginning of year 6. Mods like this one however don't fit that generalization. Or at least this mod at this APL. Well, it's the "Minimum X" mods that are the killers. If it has minimum 4, 6, or anything above 2, then that minimum APL is funky. There are traps in some Minimum APL 6s (At 6) that are WORSE than the APL 8 traps. And there are encounters that are much tougher (in relative terms) at the bottom APL. Which means I'll never play the minimum APL (Save 2) if I can help it.
_metz_ 06-24-07, 09:28 PM	To be honest I've seen *most* Core mods as easier than the regional and meta-regional mods I have played since I started playing LG at the beginning of year 6. Mods like this one however don't fit that generalization. Or at least this mod at this APL. Depends on your Region and Meta region. Nyrond metaregionals seem to be on par with core modules, and Ratik modules seem to be as well, but they mostly all cap at APL 6-8 Perrenland/Iuz games on the other hand seem to be about as tough a set of modules as you get in LG.
_metz_ 06-24-07, 09:32 PM	Well, it's the "Minimum X" mods that are the killers. If it has minimum 4, 6, or anything above 2, then that minimum APL is funky. There are traps in some Minimum APL 6s (At 6) that are WORSE than the APL 8 traps. And there are encounters that are much tougher (in relative terms) at the bottom APL. Which means I'll never play the minimum APL (Save 2) if I can help it. This is all about scaling. I know a mod that at APL 2 that had a lot of con drain that effectively killed the party, whilst at APL 6 these monsters advanced were less of an issue due to presence of lesser restorations, etc. Min APL 6 and Min APL 8 games are much more deadly of course, A Min APL 8 game ASSUMES level 4 spells/gamers with one year of experience under their belt, and as such you need to approach it that way.
bitznarf 06-24-07, 09:49 PM	Depends on your Region and Meta region. Nyrond metaregionals seem to be on par with core modules, and Ratik modules seem to be as well, but they mostly all cap at APL 6-8 Perrenland/Iuz games on the other hand seem to be about as tough a set of modules as you get in LG. Zeif and VTF for the most part for me.
Hariman 06-25-07, 12:44 AM	This is all about scaling. I know a mod that at APL 2 that had a lot of con drain that effectively killed the party, whilst at APL 6 these monsters advanced were less of an issue due to presence of lesser restorations, etc. Min APL 6 and Min APL 8 games are much more deadly of course, A Min APL 8 game ASSUMES level 4 spells/gamers with one year of experience under their belt, and as such you need to approach it that way. So my rogue2/wizard2 should be at least one level ABOVE the minimum due to his delayed progression. Or he should be with a K*****S party. I can live with that. Actually, I get the feeling that He'll become much easier to play IF I can get him to level seven for the level three spells. (Blink/Haste/etc.)