Post/Author/DateTime	Post
HypnoticMonk 05-01-05, 06:10 PM	Ok, here is my dilemma. I am going to be playing an intro mod this Thursday. It would seem to be the perfect time to run with this character concept I have had rolling around in my head for a while. I want to start with a barbarian character who gains access to some "inner magical ability" (a.k.a. starts taking some levels in Sorceror at 2nd or 3rd). The twist is that at first, he doesn't really think of what he will be doing as "spellcasting". After all, he has heard of rangers and paladins who gain different abilities after they have adventured for a while. He figures it's just a natural thing. He mutters to himself some words, makes some gestures ( yes , he will have Eschew Components ), and viola! My questions are two-fold. 1) If I were to take Warmage instead of Sorceror as my spell casting class, am I out of line by conceptualizing him as a "untrained" mage? I don't want to have him "go to Magic 101 class" to gain his spells initially ( which is why I never tried this idea in 1st or 2nd edition), and he already will have all the armor and weapon proficiences for what he will be doing. 2) Frankly, the only reason that I liked the idea of going with the Warmage instead of the Sorceror was because I like the idea of avoiding Arcane Spell Failure due to even his light armor. Is there a feat that allows a character to avoid ASF for light armor or even to reduce it some( besides Battle Caster which really wouldn't apply for how I will be playing the character) ?
kenobi65 05-01-05, 07:07 PM	and viola! He makes a stringed instrument? :D (Sorry, couldn't resist...you meant "voila"? I assume?) 1) If I were to take Warmage instead of Sorceror as my spell casting class, am I out of line by conceptualizing him as a "untrained" mage? Conceptually, yes. You want an untrained mage, that's a sorcerer. Warmages even look down their noses at wizards for being undisciplined. That said, there's no mechanical reason you can't take the class. Just be prepared for other players to look at you funny when you say you're an untrained warmage (because, by the class description, that's an oxymoron). Is there a feat that allows a character to avoid ASF for light armor or even to reduce it some( besides Battle Caster which really wouldn't apply for how I will be playing the character) ? None that are legal for LG, as far as I know (though I could well be mistaken).
HypnoticMonk 05-02-05, 10:23 AM	What you have said is what I pretty much figured, but getting confirmation is always a good thing when you aren't sure. An untrained Warmage to me makes as much sense to me as an untrained sorceror (especially when I noticed that both determine their extra spells via their Charisma bonus). (and yes, I get a little dyxlexic at times with my spelling...)
kenobi65 05-02-05, 01:58 PM	An untrained Warmage to me makes as much sense to me as an untrained sorceror (especially when I noticed that both determine their extra spells via their Charisma bonus). But read the class descriptions. Sorcerers are innate spellcasters, the magic seemingly in their blood. Warmages attend rigorous colleges in order to have their spells drummed into them via intense, repetitive training. The fact that both are Cha-based spellcasters doesn't do much to make them similar, IMO.
Bardach 05-02-05, 02:46 PM	If you did not mind going for divine rather than arcane the favoured soul would seem to fit. Bards avoid ASF if you want some arcane.
HypnoticMonk 05-02-05, 07:33 PM	But read the class descriptions. Sorcerers are innate spellcasters, the magic seemingly in their blood. Warmages attend rigorous colleges in order to have their spells drummed into them via intense, repetitive training. The fact that both are Cha-based spellcasters doesn't do much to make them similar, IMO. To me, how exactly a character gained their skills and abilities aren't really an issue. I could create 2 different wizards. Wizard A went to Wizard University where he was top of his class. Wizard B could be an orphan who found a spellbook in a secret compartment of his mother's hope chest. Even without schooling, somehow Wizard B understood the runes and was able to teach himself the basics of memorizing the spells within. Personalitywise, yes, there would be a difference. Statistically and combatwise, there wouldn't have to be. Both would be valid, even though "B" is definitely a different than usual design. Besides, he wouldn't even call himself a "Warmage". At first, he would consider himself to be doing something that comes naturally. Later on, with more life experience, if he had to classify himself, he might look around what abilities other adventurers have... and consider himself as having "sorceror" abilities. After all, not every spell caster of the same class uses the same spell assortment. Also keep in mind that our characters don't have access to their own character sheets. ( "What do you mean I only have an 8 Charisma? I am MUCH more *BURP* charming than that!!") I , as a player, would know he is a quote/unquote "warmage", but he, as a character, doesn't have to. I can also envision other "classic" warmages looking down at him.. like he was some kind of idiot savant. [hmmm.....can I really use the term "classic" for such a new class?]
HypnoticMonk 05-02-05, 07:47 PM	If you did not mind going for divine rather than arcane the favoured soul would seem to fit. Bards avoid ASF if you want some arcane. I'm still juggling around an idea for a favoured soul. I agree 100% with you that it would be a great fit for the concept of " ummm, no, I don't know how I can do that?" As far as Bards go... sigh, I can't seem to make myself play that class. (Maybe it's because I have all the musical ability of a rusty chainsaw.)
King Kashue 05-02-05, 08:36 PM	As far as Bards go... sigh, I can't seem to make myself play that class. (Maybe it's because I have all the musical ability of a rusty chainsaw.) Remember, Bardic 'music' doesn't have to be music...It could be anything perform wise...One Bard I know of does commerical jingles...Another does Haiku...:D If you're a fan of wit, your Bardic Music could be sayings from Oscar Wilde :D
smerwin29 05-03-05, 01:41 PM	My half-orc barbarian/bard has perform: chant and perform: stomp. I see him as an ugly cross between Michael Flatley and Lemmy from Motorhead. Shawn
kenobi65 05-03-05, 01:44 PM	I see him as an ugly cross between Michael Flatley and Lemmy from Motorhead. "Ugly" and "Lemmy from Motorhead" are redundant. ;)
HypnoticMonk 05-03-05, 04:51 PM	Remember, Bardic 'music' doesn't have to be music...It could be anything perform wise...One Bard I know of does commerical jingles...Another does Haiku...:D If you're a fan of wit, your Bardic Music could be sayings from Oscar Wilde :D Hmmmm.... Perform(stand-up comedy).... hmmm I like it :ayyyy!:
solbergb 05-06-05, 10:09 PM	From a practical standpoint..warmage spell list has little to offer a warrior. Warrior/mages tend to cast a bunch of the same spells over and over, mostly self-buffs. But they need a variety of spells, some that last hours, some that are swift action, etc. Any build that gets wraithstrike and power attack can do bad things. I'd go with barb/sorcerer and consider rage mage or eldritch knight for PRC's.
oroborous 05-06-05, 11:19 PM	Depending on how high your ASF is and if you want to sacrifice spell caster levels to eliminate ASF, taking a couple of levels of the Spellsword PrC could be the way to go. Just remember you only get a bump in your caster level every other level, so you lose power in exchange for reliability. I see a Barb/Sorc as having no problem in meeting the prereqs.
HypnoticMonk 05-07-05, 10:17 AM	I always like the idea of planning out how the character advances. Given the two classes I am dealing with, I have been juggling back and forth between rage mage and spellsword. ( As far as the sorc/warmage conflict, I am still about 75/25 leaning toward the sorceror. Just hate that ASF. Too bad I am not in a nonLG campaign so that I could talk my GM into maybe allowing Batlle Caster to eliminate my light armor ASF)
delroland 05-09-05, 07:30 AM	Barbarian/bard is a much more potent combination than barbarian/warmage. Bards get buffs and warmages do not. Also, three of the bardic abilities, inspire courage, inspire heroics, and inspire greatness do not require concentration to use or maintain, so you can do them while raging and fighting in melee. This stacks up to be some pretty potent combat bonuses on top of those for raging.
RWarehall 05-09-05, 06:17 PM	I have few thoughts on this... 1) No one said you have to wear armor just because you are proficient as a Barbarian... 2) There is always "Still Spell". It's a +1 level adjustment that allows you to avoid ASF by removing the Somatic component. 3) There are also a few spells that do not have a Somatic component. Not many, but True Strike comes to mind... 4) Mithril Chain Shirt at 10% ASF isn't all that bad (except when your number comes up I guess). 5) Frankly, as flavor text goes, I think most DMs would let you slide with the "spontaneous warmage" concept just for the enjoyment of play. It's not like how you learn spells really affects play in LG. There's a Furyondy player who thinks he is a bear...I'd say whatever floats your boat... 6) I'd say go with what you'd find more fun to play without necessarily crunching the numbers too hard. A Rage Mage barb/sorc isn't unheard of. A Rage Mage (or Spellsword) barb/warmage is more unique. 7) You could also consider Eldritch Knight as well... ---Robert
gomeztoo 05-11-05, 04:01 PM	I have found that most DMS give you a lot of leeway in playing a character as long as you stick with the rules. I have a character that 'changes' when she rages (grows an inch, sprouts scales, etc), has flames for hair, and while a cleric, knew almost nothing of religion until recently. As long as it is cosmetic and has no game consequences, it is generally not a problem unless your DM is very narrow-minded. Anyway, people can hardly forbid you to play. It's your character and you decide how it runs. Gomez
gomeztoo 05-11-05, 04:02 PM	One other thing: check your Triad on organisations etc in your region. Perhaps they have backgrounds that could appeal to your barbarian and aid him 'coming into his own'.
delroland 05-12-05, 08:36 AM	I have few thoughts on this... 1) No one said you have to wear armor just because you are proficient as a Barbarian... 4) Mithril Chain Shirt at 10% ASF isn't all that bad (except when your number comes up I guess). 1) true, but it is a class ability, so it should not be discarded lightly; plus bards and warmages can wear light armor and ignore arcane spell failure 4) this argument has never held water in my book, and i have played an arcane caster in LC from 1st to 13th (with no Con bonus I might add, and the only time i died was because the adventure started that way for story reasons), and the campaign converted to 3E at 9th level; arcane casters rely on one thing over fighters and rogues: the reliability of their spells. i have played in several adventures where getting a fireball dropped strategically and early made the combat encounter significantly more survivable, and to have a critical spell fizzle because of your armor is a risk most casters should not take. low hitpoints = never gamble if you don't have to mithral bucklers/dastana/chahair-aina on the other hand... :D
HypnoticMonk 05-20-05, 07:17 PM	Update: On the night I was to play in an intro module, we had to do some shuffling so that every table had at least 4 people. So my barbarian/"whatever I decide on" had to be shelved for the time being. So I am still wrestling with this idea.... sigh
Sieylianna 05-23-05, 12:58 PM	I always like the idea of planning out how the character advances. Given the two classes I am dealing with, I have been juggling back and forth between rage mage and spellsword. ( As far as the sorc/warmage conflict, I am still about 75/25 leaning toward the sorceror. Just hate that ASF. I started a PC for the Blood on the Bright Sands story arc who is a Suel barbarian going for either Dragon Disciple or more likely, Eldritch Knight. I'm also planning to pick up Arcane Strike when I qualify. (So I may not care about ASF, because most of my spells will be thrown into melee attacks). It's tough to decide whether warmage or sorceror is best. Warmage lets you wear light armor, has a d6 for hit points and cast just as many spells. The warmage edge won't do much for me because of a low Intelligence bonus. The big drawback that I see with warmage is the limited spell selection pretty much shuts down MIC, especially craft wondrous item. I could also do a wizard and the free scribe scroll feat would help to get around the armor issue, but that doesn't provide nearly as many spells as a sorceror receives (although gaining them a level earlier may very well make up the difference). Ed
King Kashue 05-23-05, 01:27 PM	I started a PC for the Blood on the Bright Sands story arc who is a Suel barbarian going for either Dragon Disciple or more likely, Eldritch Knight. I'm also planning to pick up Arcane Strike when I qualify. (So I may not care about ASF, because most of my spells will be thrown into melee attacks). It's tough to decide whether warmage or sorceror is best. Warmage lets you wear light armor, has a d6 for hit points and cast just as many spells. The warmage edge won't do much for me because of a low Intelligence bonus. The big drawback that I see with warmage is the limited spell selection pretty much shuts down MIC, especially craft wondrous item. I could also do a wizard and the free scribe scroll feat would help to get around the armor issue, but that doesn't provide nearly as many spells as a sorceror receives (although gaining them a level earlier may very well make up the difference). Ed War mage is primarily a damage dealing spell class...They are missing almost every good buff spell, which is often what the melee caster is about...
Skole 05-23-05, 08:09 PM	HI, I have a little insight into this dilemma after going through conversion recently. My characters is a Bbn 1/Ftr 1/Sor 4/Spellsword 2. He's conceptually the same of yours, a barbarian that's exiled because of his inherent abilities that he didn't even know he had. He get's mad and suddenly urges overcome him, his hands twitch, he mutters a few angry snarled words and *boof* he's 12ft tall. He's also aiming towards the Dragon Disciple Prestige Class. I think sorcerer is definately the way to go. The most useful use of arcane magic in this combination is in terms of buffs. Wraithstrike, enlarge person, shield, true strike. etc.. using offensive i.e scorching ray etc is often a waste because of the higher damage output of melee. I've got a mithral breastplate combined with ignore ASF of 10% ti have an ASF of 5%, 5th level caster, BAB +6, and a critical hit from a keen wraithstriked falchion with full power is fun :) especially when you combined it with whirling blade and hit 4 enemies at once (it was a one off, 4 of them standing in a line, I couldn't help myself) I guess it all depends on your choice of spells in the end, do you want your arcane magic to enhance your melee ability or do you want the ability to either wade into combat or rain down fire from a distance. I think the raining of fire is spreading yourself a little to thin to be that effective, lost caster levels and lost BAB make you below average in both areas. If it's a supplement to your melee however, you have the option of fighting a little below the normal sometimes and then opening up a can against the real big bads. Rain of Fire = Warmage, Buffing = Sorcerer (and don't forget, you can still rain Fire :))
Southernskies 05-25-05, 03:42 AM	I could also do a wizard and the free scribe scroll feat would help to get around the armor issue, but that doesn't provide nearly as many spells as a sorceror receives (although gaining them a level earlier may very well make up the difference). Ed Using scrolls won't get you around ASF. DMG pg238 "Using a scroll is like casting a spell for purposes of arcane spell failure chance (such as from armor)."
katsklaw 06-18-05, 09:39 PM	Hi all, I had a bit to add that may or may not be relavent. At lease by some of the older game rules, barbarians hate magic. Especially the younger, less experienced barbarians. So depending on the DM. You may be limited to only a warmage, since their magic is not innate and only as a high level barbarian. kat
King Kashue 06-19-05, 12:16 AM	Hi all, I had a bit to add that may or may not be relavent. At lease by some of the older game rules, barbarians hate magic. Especially the younger, less experienced barbarians. So depending on the DM. You may be limited to only a warmage, since their magic is not innate and only as a high level barbarian. kat In a home game perhaps, but in Living Greyhawk, a judge doesn't have the same kind of authority as a home game DM...Any combination of classes that the LGCS is okay is just that, the LGCS is the only restriction on that sort of thing...
HypnoticMonk 06-19-05, 08:49 PM	Exactly my thinking, King. I think I shall FINALLY get to start this character in my next adventure ( which will be this week). Of course I will still have time to think about what class I take at 2nd or 3rd level. The all-out attack, blast-it-to-heck-and-back spell choices for a warmage would seem to go along with the mindset of a barbarian(at least, the one I am going to play). But I do like the self-buffing that a sorceror can do. Sigh, I promise I will make up my mind one day...
Timlagor 06-20-05, 06:54 AM	HE could think of his buffs a just like Rage. He does his Incredible HulK Roar and the buffs come up with his rage :-D ..of course he would have to roar for quite a long time (..just like in the old films ;-)
Neb Rybel 06-22-05, 05:06 PM	Why not Favored Soul again? Perks: 1. Divine - NO ASF. 2. d8 HD 3. 3/4 BAB 4. Free Weapon Focus at level 3 (if you don't take it earlier) 5. Healing ability (no party ever complained about having another part healer). After Character Level 3, you can take Lesser Vigor (10 + 1 rnd per caster level of fast heal 1, max 15). The Vigors are the best Post Battle Recovery Spell (as a Wand, Lesser Vigor more cost effective than CLW). 6. More defensive spells that stack with armor (Shield of Faith, Entropic Shield) 7. Same attribute boosters as a Sorcerer (Bull's Strength, Bear's Endurance). 8. More intrinisc divine connection than a Cleric. 9. Spontaneous Caster (has more known spells than a Sorcerer of the same level). "Drawbacks": 1. Deity. 2. No domains (compared to a cleric). 3. No Heavy Armor Proficiency (compared to a cleric). 4. No low level attack spells (compared to a sorcerer or warmage). A decent Greyhawk Deity Search. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=lg/articles/lg20030521deitiessearch) Barbarian 2/Cleric of Kord X - Strength Domain (Enlarge Person), Glory Domain (compensate for Charisma when turning). Barbarian 2/Favored Soul of Kord X - 3 known 1st level spells (CLW or Lesser Vigor, Shield of Faith, Magic Weapon). Barbarian 2/Druid X - Skill Lists line up nicely, Animal Companion, a few cool features. Embrace the Wild (CV 146) is a 2nd level Druid spell that you can use to gain the Scent ability of a Wolf for 10 min/caster level (in addition to low-light vision).