Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JohnduBois 01-22-06, 10:24 AM	Hey all, I just became the meta-org coordinator for my region's bardic college. Right now, membership in the meta-org isn't very good, and I'm trying to figure out why. I'm looking at a couple in-region flavor issues, but I also want to investigate the cost/benefit ratio of our college in comparison to those of other regions. If people from regions other than Furyondy (especially those in Iuz's Border States) could let me know what the details of their bardic meta-orgs are, I would appreciate it. Thanks.
Mommy was an Orc 01-22-06, 12:02 PM	Could you provide a link to the description and/or download - or just list the general benefits/TUs/Cost?
redgamer 01-22-06, 12:03 PM	First of all how many bards are in your region? Are there other meta-orgs that bards are joining? In some regions for instance the most powerful meta-org for bard is not the bardic college nor is the bardic college even in the top 3. Will your meta-org be featured in the regional story. If the players no this that is IMO a huge deterant for joining as the TU cost means you can't play a character who joins all the meta-orgs. The meta-org rules change too much for my taste. I am therefor hesitant to spend TUs on meta-orgs that don't have a definative return (although it doesn't have to be a big return) I would bet your biggest problem however is the lack of bards in your region. I've only played with 3 bards in the last 3 years. One was a bard/barbarian dart thrower, one was a bard/warmage and the third was my bard 2.
JohnduBois 01-22-06, 12:17 PM	While our region doesn't have as many bards as it does, say, fighters, there isn't a total lack of bards. About half the tables I've DM'd/played at have had a bard other than my PC. The issue is that, as far as I know, there are zero PC's in this organization. I don't want to get into the specifics of the org, but the cost/benefit is way off compared to other regional organizations (and what the guidelines from the Circle say). Plus, I'd like to add tiers and some flexibility to reflect the collegiate atmosphere of the organization. That's why I'm more seeking a sample of other regional orgs, rather than a "this is why the org in your region sucks" discussion. Any meta-org that has zero members just isn't balanced, so I know the org needs modified. What I'm hoping to do is look into other options, and present them to my Triad's MO coordinator at the end of the year.
FODUM 01-22-06, 03:22 PM	The Shadow Schism will be explored in in the future, but suffice to say that House Thuranni has its greatest influence in the northeast... which is also where the Blood of Vol has its roots in Khorvaire.
paigeoliver 01-22-06, 05:33 PM	So many of the metaorgs provide essentially worthless "benefits" and require quite a lot from the character in order to join them. Lets look at the Dyvers "Bardic Hegemony" metaorg. Basic entry level. 4 Requirements of skills and ability scores, the charisma requirement is higher than what more balanced bards might actually have. Cost 150 GP and 2 time units per year. "Benefits" Access to some normal non-magical musical instruments that shouldn't be restricted in the first place (Drum, Fiddle, Flute, Harp, Horn, Lute, Lyre, Mandolin, Pan pipes). So benefit 1=worthless. 10 percent discount on a few items (mostly clothing). Wow, this one is worth about 5 GP. Benefit 2 = worthless. Final benefit three separate +1 bonus on skills that are SO specific that they are unlikely to come up more than once per game year. All said bonuses are on non-combat skills that bards are always able to pretty much trounce without any bonuses at all. Ok, maybe the next level get's better??? Journeyman 6 separate skill and ability score requirements. Must waste an influence point. Spend 150 GP and waste 3 time units per year. "Benefits" Access to masterwork versions of musical instruments that shouldn't be restricted in the first place. Same worthless 10 percent discount on clothing. The uberspecific skill bonuses go up to +2. "100% discount on Rich Lifestyle during any adventure set in the Lands of Dyvers" Finally, an actual worthwhile bonus that is theoretically worth what it would cost you to join the group. Basically, if there is no reason to join the metaorg at the lowest level then a lot of people are going to ignore it, and so many of the metaorgs provide actually no real reason to join, or provide benefits that are worthless to characters over 1st level. If when writing your metaorg you provide ONE SOLID REASON to join at the lowest level, then people will join. And by solid I don't mean "+1 bonus on some social skill in some really obscure situation", and I also don't mean "access to normal nonmagical equipment that should not be restricted in the first place." Speaking of which, one of my current LG beefs is nonmagical equipment that you need "access" to get. I find it silly that I can walk into any town and purchase a halfling sized magical spiked chain+1, but that I can't buy a longaxe or a flute unless I have access to it.
Itsa_Trika 01-22-06, 08:29 PM	Paige The Bardic Hegemony is one of two public arms of the Alliance, the most powerful organization in Dyvers and something difficult to join. More importantly, the Dyvers meta-organizations have been and will always continue to promote the role playing element of the region over any benefits they might offer, which was and is again the primary purpose of meta-orgs. If you feel the costs-to-benefits is worthless, then simply don't join. If you do spend the 2 TUs a year to join, you will find a whole new depth to your character within the region and something to talk about beyond. But that type of effort we leave completely to the player. --Joe Dyvers Triad
JohnduBois 01-22-06, 09:00 PM	Likewise, my triad feels (rightfully so, I might add) that the primary purpose of meta-orgs is roleplaying as opposed to in-game benefit. However, right now, the in-game benefits of Furyondy's bardic college is so low that literally nobody is joining. The costs of Dyvers's organization is lower, the org is easier to join, and the benefits (excepting skill bumps, which are very generous) are greater, than those in Furyondy. This is why I'm trying to get an idea of what other regions have - so I have an idea of what we may be able to offer.
Sieylianna 01-22-06, 09:05 PM	The Veluna bardic organization was extremely generous, it allowed bards access to arcane spells, feats and items which weren't available to wizards or sorcerers through the college of the arcane. That was significantly changed in the latest iteration of the rules. Other than that, I know the Highfolk bardic organization used to require the player to give a performance at an interactive to join. That was a few years ago when I was considering joining, so it may have changed. Ed
garyjohnson 01-23-06, 04:08 AM	Hi, John. The Perrenland metaorgs have just been updated, so the current version of the Voice of the Kerk is available at http://www.perrenland.org/inst-oldkerk.php on the regional website. The metaorg's membership as a proportion of the bard PCs on our regional character list is low: 3 out of 39, 29 of which are humans, half-elves, or half-orcs. It's part of our religious metaorg grouping, the Old Kerk, which excludes some characters, such as non-humans who don't want to worship a Flan human pantheon. I think the bigger turn-off is that thematically it's a metaorg for socially responsible and religious characters, and most bards aren't conceived along those lines. Certainly I had to make some mental accommodations and adjustments to make my character fit into that category - back then, I mostly wanted access to a +4 cloak of charisma. :) IMO, it's a much more attractive metaorg following the revision: there's now a +3 bonus to bardic knowledge checks (new), a +4 bonus to five skills (new), a +4 bonus to four skills in regional scenarios (improved from +2 in the old version), access to all masterwork musical instruments (new), and the monetary cost has changed from a 5% tithe to a flat 400 gp/year (two adventures into 596 and I've already saved money). I'm waiting to see whether or not this makes more people join the Voice. Cheers, Gary Johnson
ezreal2001 01-23-06, 06:47 AM	Hi, John. The Perrenland metaorgs have just been updated, so the current version of the Voice of the Kerk is available at http://www.perrenland.org/inst-oldkerk.php on the regional website. The metaorg's membership as a proportion of the bard PCs on our regional character list is low: 3 out of 39, 29 of which are humans, half-elves, or half-orcs. It's part of our religious metaorg grouping, the Old Kerk, which excludes some characters, such as non-humans who don't want to worship a Flan human pantheon. I think the bigger turn-off is that thematically it's a metaorg for socially responsible and religious characters, and most bards aren't conceived along those lines. Certainly I had to make some mental accommodations and adjustments to make my character fit into that category - back then, I mostly wanted access to a +4 cloak of charisma. :) IMO, it's a much more attractive metaorg following the revision: there's now a +3 bonus to bardic knowledge checks (new), a +4 bonus to five skills (new), a +4 bonus to four skills in regional scenarios (improved from +2 in the old version), access to all masterwork musical instruments (new), and the monetary cost has changed from a 5% tithe to a flat 400 gp/year (two adventures into 596 and I've already saved money). I'm waiting to see whether or not this makes more people join the Voice. Cheers, Gary Johnson Yes mechanically the bonuses are pretty attractive - But as you've acknowledged the Perrender bard is Choatic and doesn't follow members of the Old Kirk pantheon, I've noticed Corellon Larethian appears to be quite popular at with the Elven bards right now. So while the requirement for a year's membership of the Saceral Trackers (Not a bad thing mind) along with the rquirement to be of Good alignment slows things a bit (CN and true N are really popular alignments with bards), I think your real problem stems from the fact the Voice of the Kirk is an first and for most an arm of the Old Kirk rather than a part of a Bardic comunity. You might find that a Bardic College not firmly wedded to an overtly Lawfull organisation has greatly more appeal. J
paigeoliver 01-23-06, 09:54 AM	I don't actually have a bard character, so I probably wouldn't be joining the Bardic college anyway!! =) But I DO have a Marshall with a high perform, who is supposed to be an actor, which is almost the same thing. I was just trying to analyze why OTHER people might not be joining. I will actually join things for roleplay purposes alone, but I am sure that many other people won't. I currently have a Dyvers halfling, still waiting for the International Halfling Society to be updated so I can join that. I wish we had some sort of Outrider organization. Verbebonc has one that lets you buy dogs with maximum hitpoints. Also, wish I had seen THAT before I had played that character for the first time this year. Actually, looking over the "Furyondy Players" metaorg I think it looks pretty good. One thing I might note is that the requirements for entry are pretty high. Needing to make a DC 25 perform check (assuming the person opts to take a 10 rather than roll) is no simple feat. That means you need a +15 on your perform check. And the requirement for two types of perform is kind of hefty, since a lot of "perform" characters like to specialize in one. I would join this org with my Furyondy Marshall if it wasn't for the dual perform requirement. Having looked over a lot of metaorgs from different regions one thing I keep seeing is rather high requirements for entry that just don't seem to make sense. Such as requiring a BAB of 4 to be a private in the army. Am I really supposed to believe that every brand new private in the army is a 4th level fighter or higher? If not then why are the player characters held to a different standard than the NPC characters? This goes right up there along with writers who forget how much a gold piece is supposed to be worth. "Oh look 5 GP gate tax to enter the town, how do the peasants get in since that is 50 days wages".
JohnduBois 01-23-06, 10:37 AM	Since we're now specifically talking about Furyondy's college... The steep entry requirement is the biggest problem from my perspective. I appreciate the stance that only the best should be sponsored performers (the rationale behind the "5 ranks in two Perform skills" requirement, as well as the DC 25 Perform check), but the school should also offer teaching to students who have talent, but wish to improve to "master" status. Reserving the organization to members only results in what we have now, a meta-org with zero members. My triad, appropriately in my opinion, likes the college staying a prestige organization. But, from what I can see, Furyondy's economy has seen some hard times. When hard times occur, colleges must adapt to keep their doors open. Here are the biggest modifications I'm trying to work out (all speculative, as I haven't talked to my Triad about them yet): 1. A tiered structure, with apprentices, masters, and possibly alumni groups. 2. Specialized fields of study (this is a college, after all). Something like what Veluna has, only simpler. 2 TU courses in a variety of fields under the umbrellas of General Studies or Performance Studies. PC's could take as many as they wanted, but must take one in each area. 3. Access to a couple more items. In particular, mighty whips (only bards can use them without taking a feat), and masterwork instruments, although more of a "pick one" than the blanket access other regions have. I like the idea of a college instructing a student in improved techniques, but as any college teacher knows, there's only so much you can teach a student in a year, especially if they're missing a lot of class to adventure.
paigeoliver 01-23-06, 10:48 AM	The funny thing is, if I dumped 5 of my Marshall's 7 skill points next level into a different perform skill then I could be the first and only member of that Metaorg, since I already have a +15 on my "Perform: Acting" skill. The only thing is that I live in Missouri and just happen to have a Furyondy character, so its not like he would get to do a whole lot of interacting with other Furyondy characters, or modules.
JohnduBois 01-23-06, 10:56 AM	Funny... that's what my bard will be doing in 325 XP... I was holding out for a change in the meta-org, but that didn't happen; they were changed before I took over. But hey, you want to join, I can get you the cert, and you can get it signed whenever you next play a Furyondy module...
qstor 01-23-06, 10:59 AM	Here are the biggest modifications I'm trying to work out (all speculative, as I haven't talked to my Triad about them yet): 1. A tiered structure, with apprentices, masters, and possibly alumni groups. 2. Specialized fields of study (this is a college, after all). Something like what Veluna has, only simpler. 2 TU courses in a variety of fields under the umbrellas of General Studies or Performance Studies. PC's could take as many as they wanted, but must take one in each area. 3. Access to a couple more items. In particular, mighty whips (only bards can use them without taking a feat), and masterwork instruments, although more of a "pick one" than the blanket access other regions have. I like the idea of a college instructing a student in improved techniques, but as any college teacher knows, there's only so much you can teach a student in a year, especially if they're missing a lot of class to adventure. I think the circle changed the rules on MW instruments from CV in the new Dispel Confusion. So that be something to look at. Mike
JohnduBois 01-23-06, 11:13 AM	Right. Now the use of the instruments requires campaign documentation (training). Most bardic meta-orgs provide access to this; ours does not (yet). This is part of what I'm trying to change.
paigeoliver 01-23-06, 11:16 AM	Funny... that's what my bard will be doing in 325 XP... I was holding out for a change in the meta-org, but that didn't happen; they were changed before I took over. But hey, you want to join, I can get you the cert, and you can get it signed whenever you next play a Furyondy module... I'll have to see if there are any conventions in Furyondy this year that I want to go to, otherwise I might not ever end up playing a Furyondy module.
animus 01-25-06, 12:57 AM	Having looked over a lot of metaorgs from different regions one thing I keep seeing is rather high requirements for entry that just don't seem to make sense. Such as requiring a BAB of 4 to be a private in the army. Am I really supposed to believe that every brand new private in the army is a 4th level fighter or higher? If not then why are the player characters held to a different standard than the NPC characters? This goes right up there along with writers who forget how much a gold piece is supposed to be worth. "Oh look 5 GP gate tax to enter the town, how do the peasants get in since that is 50 days wages". As a clarification of the Furyondy Military requirement, it is a +4 attack bonus, NOT BAB. It means that if you can somehow muster +4 to attack with a melee weapon (which any level 1 fighter with a combination of 14 str and weap. focus could do), you can join. This was clarified by the MO Triad, because people in the region were confused (and mad) about it. Other than that I do agree about the requirements. They tend to be steep. But then again, it doesn't bother me much because I join metaorgs for RP reasons. -RF
garyjohnson 01-25-06, 06:34 PM	Yes mechanically the bonuses are pretty attractive - But as you've acknowledged the Perrender bard is Choatic and doesn't follow members of the Old Kirk pantheon, According to the entries on the Heroes of Perrenland list, the majority of Perrenland bards aren't chaotic: out of the 39 listed, 21 are NG or N, 3 are LG, and the remaining 15 are CG or CN. Of the 30 humans, half-orcs and half-elves listed, 13 worship gods of the Old Kerk, 10 worship other gods, and 7 are undeclared. 5 of the 9 non-human bards worship other gods, while 4 are undeclared. I've noticed Corellon Larethian appears to be quite popular at with the Elven bards right now. So while the requirement for a year's membership of the Saceral Trackers (Not a bad thing mind) along with the rquirement to be of Good alignment slows things a bit (CN and true N are really popular alignments with bards), Not among those listed on the website: 29 of the 39 are LG (3), NG (16) or CG (10), while only 10 are N (5) and CN (5). I think your real problem stems from the fact the Voice of the Kirk is an first and for most an arm of the Old Kirk rather than a part of a Bardic comunity. You might find that a Bardic College not firmly wedded to an overtly Lawfull organisation has greatly more appeal. Possibly - I figure we'll know more about how the metaorg revision has changed the perceived value of the Voice of the Kerk in 12 months time, when everyone's character has had an opportunity to join. Cheers, Gary Johnson