Post/Author/DateTime	Post
control freak 08-14-07, 10:05 AM	i am starting a bard for ruins of greyhawk, and taking extra music and another feat (human) 10 2 10 2 14 6 14 6 10 2 16 10 im going lyric thurmag + sublime cord and being almost pure caster, what spells should i get? what metamagics should i get and (what book is metamagic song is it just like divine metamagic ?) i was considering persistant spell if metamagic song is divine metamagic type things, (persistant haste/vigor)
Vanadium 08-14-07, 10:33 AM	i am starting a bard for ruins of greyhawk, and taking extra music and another feat (human) 10 2 10 2 14 6 14 6 10 2 16 10 im going lyric thurmag + sublime cord and being almost pure caster, what spells should i get? what metamagics should i get and (what book is metamagic song is it just like divine metamagic ?) i was considering persistant spell if metamagic song is divine metamagic type things, (persistant haste/vigor) Metamagic Song does not work that way, seeing as it has a clause about not being able to modify a spell so it is higher leveled than one you can cast. Also, the two spells you cited don't work with persistant spell, either by being illegal (haste) or just not working (vigor, due to erratta). That said, I think the feat is in Races of Stone.
control freak 08-14-07, 10:42 AM	what other feats would be good for caster bards. also what errata is there that stops it from working with vigor?
KarmaInferno 08-14-07, 10:58 AM	I took Melodic Casting. Saved me a ton of skill points, which was critical for my build. Allows you to use a Perform check in place of a concentration check for spellcasting related stuff, and also lets you use verbal spells or magic items without interrupting bardsong. Re: Vigor... All the Vigor spells have a "max X rounds" entry in their duration. No matter how you extend the spell (persistent spell, extend spell, etc), that is a hard cap on how many rounds of healing you get. For example, a persisted Vigor spell stops healing you after 25 rounds, no matter what. Technically you still have a Conjuration(healing) spell on you for 24 hours, and will show that on a Detect Magic, it just isn't doing anything more for you after the 25 rounds. The only thing you can really do to improve effectiveness is by increasing the amount of Fast Healing you get each round. The 'Healthful Rest' spell can be interpreted to do this, as it "doubles the rate of natural healing" and Fast Healing is defined in the glossary as being "just like Natural Healing". But there's table variation on the use of that spell. -karma
control freak 08-14-07, 11:00 AM	thats fine for first level but what other feats are good? lyric casting ( the thing that lets you spend bardic uses for spells of the same level)
KarmaInferno 08-14-07, 11:22 AM	Lyric Spell is not really that great. It burns Bardic Music uses in a real hurry. You probably at most will be able to use it once or twice a day. And it really only is useful if you've run out of spell slots for the day. How often does that happen? A good one as a bard and a spontaneous caster is Rapid Metamagic. As a bard, you are likely to be closer to the combat than, say, a sorcerer, and a full round casting for metamagic can be downright painful sometimes. -karma
CSHunt68 08-14-07, 11:34 AM	Persistent Spell is Closed.
KarmaInferno 08-14-07, 11:48 AM	Yeah, there is that. No Persistent Spell for you! Metamagic Song is okay, but not THAT great for much the same reason that Lyric Spell isn't that great. You don't get that many Bardic Music uses per day unless you burn a ton of feats on Extra Music, which means you get to use Metamagic Song maybe one-two times a day, max. You might as well get Sudden versions of meta-magic feats instead, and save the bardic music uses. (if you can get access, of course) -karma
cetiken 08-14-07, 12:15 PM	I'm a fan of the basics in therms of spellcasting feats: Spell Focus: Enchantment and Illusion Spell Penetration Also for Ruins of Greyhawk you might consider Lore Song as a fairly nifty alternate class feature.
Demoyn 08-14-07, 02:12 PM	I know it's been mentioned before, but melodic casting is a must-have at first level, especially for someone going lyric thaumaturge. With this feat, you will NEVER have to spend skill points on concentration. Plus, it's a prerequisite for your PrC anyway, so why not take it at first to save on skill points?
Frumpkis 08-15-07, 03:46 AM	Lyric Spell is not really that great. It burns Bardic Music uses in a real hurry. You probably at most will be able to use it once or twice a day. And it really only is useful if you've run out of spell slots for the day. How often does that happen? I agree, Lyric Spell's usefulness does decrease as a bard goes up in levels and gets more spell slots automatically. And yeah, I've found that at higher levels with my Sublime Chord caster bard, I rarely run out of spell slots, except for those "3 fights in one day" mods. However, when you need spell slots, you NEED spell slots, and anywhere you can get them from is a good thing. So, I'd say Lyric Spell is still a good feat to take at level 6 (which is the earliest you can get it at). You can always retrain it out later in your build, if you feel it's not worth keeping around. A good one as a bard and a spontaneous caster is Rapid Metamagic. As a bard, you are likely to be closer to the combat than, say, a sorcerer, and a full round casting for metamagic can be downright painful sometimes. -karma I keep on hearing this mentioned (the full-round casting time for metamagic on spontaneous casters), but in my experience, it hasn't been that much of a problem. My bard has Heighten Spell and uses it constantly. The only times when I wish I had my move action is when I need to get in range to use my Close Range stuff, or if I need to get out of a monster's reach (which is rare, 'cause I usually stay back from the front line). Neither of these circumstances happen all that often, though.
Frumpkis 08-15-07, 04:04 AM	To the OP: you may want to check out this topic http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=865353 And to add to the advice on that thread: - pick up Heighten Spell. It'll allow you to make the most of your spell list: you can keep the save DCs on your low-level spells competitive, allowing you to make use of things like Tasha's Hideous Laughter and Glitterdust throughout your bard's career. - Arcane Mastery is also good, if you cast a lot of spells with SR. - good spells for a caster bard to take: Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Glitterdust, Mindless Rage*, Silence, Confusion, Dispel Magic, Slow, D-Door. - good spells to take through Sublime Chord levels: Blast of Flame, Evard's Black Tentacles, Feeblemind, Wall of Force, Freezing Fog *my caster bard has a Carpet of Flying, so one of my favourite tactics is to cast Mindless Rage on a tough-looking creature that doesn't have a means of flying. Mindless Rage causes the target to focus on doing nothing except engaging the caster (me) in melee combat; it ignores all other creatures and can't use ranged attacks or spells. Since the target can't reach me because I'm flying.......it's basically screwed. :D
frupton 08-15-07, 04:07 AM	Good feats for bards: Improved Initative Spell Penetration Force of Personality (Complete Adv) Craft Wondrous Melodic Casting (Complete Mage)
Lupo 08-15-07, 08:13 AM	I agree, Lyric Spell's usefulness does decrease as a bard goes up in levels and gets more spell slots automatically. And yeah, I've found that at higher levels with my Sublime Chord caster bard, I rarely run out of spell slots, except for those "3 fights in one day" mods. However, when you need spell slots, you NEED spell slots, and anywhere you can get them from is a good thing. So, I'd say Lyric Spell is still a good feat to take at level 6 (which is the earliest you can get it at). You can always retrain it out later in your build, if you feel it's not worth keeping around.<snip> bard's spell slots are not as many as sorcerer's ;) at level 6: 3 zero-level, 3 first-level, 2 second-level. add one slot to every spell level from high charisma does not really give bard enough spell slots for my taste. with "lyric spell" one gets up to 2 additional second level spells or three additional first level spells (i skip the 6 zero levels, albeit a lot of prestidigitations can be useful too) with "lyric spell" AND "extra music" a bard gets up to 3 second level spells or 5 additional first level spells. even without "extra music" a bard is able to cast at least ONE additional spell of his top tier and still have plenty of uses of bardic music left. and bards don't make as good crafters, so crafting all those wonderful "memento magica" that one stumbles across is not a choice either. i think this is worth a feat for a caster :) ciao martin m.
KarmaInferno 08-15-07, 11:28 AM	I'd prefer to carry more scrolls for "out of spells" emergencies, rather than spend a precious feat slot. Also, "Force of Personality" sounds good on it's face (bards generally have great Charisma), but most bardic classes tend to have good Will save progression. My Sublime Chord has a +20 Will save at 13th level, and has no natural Wisdom bonus at all. -karma
Lupo 08-15-07, 02:21 PM	I'd prefer to carry more scrolls for "out of spells" emergencies, rather than spend a precious feat slot. Also, "Force of Personality" sounds good on it's face (bards generally have great Charisma), but most bardic classes tend to have good Will save progression. My Sublime Chord has a +20 Will save at 13th level, and has no natural Wisdom bonus at all. -karma basic scrolls - level zero to two or three - are fine but after that it becomes expensive. and some nice spells are from non-PHB sources, so no scrolls for these spells and only few bards have "scribe scroll" ;) ciao martin m.