Post/Author/DateTime	Post
UMiskatonic 07-13-07, 02:14 PM	How about a "beginner's guide to teamwork"? I certainly could use more lessons... My guess is that a new player's instincts with a L2 wizard will be something like buffing with mage armor round 1 and casting magic missile round 2 rather than the potentially more optimal course of grease or magic weapon/enlarge the fighter or obscuring mist for anti-archer cover, etc. ---Wangka I'm all over this one. Here's the organization plan. Just post general comments, things that have worked for you (or not) and hoepfully we can assemble a list with some good ideas. I'll run through and edit it later, if there's enough interest.
UMiskatonic 07-13-07, 02:26 PM	Lesson One: DON"T SKIP THE CHARACTER INTROS It is important to know who's at your table, and who isn't. If you're relying on the druid for healing, the druid needs to know, because she cannot convert to healing spells on the fly. With that in mind, I suggest you find out what the characters are, and what the levels are. If your brute fighter is three levels lower than the rest of you, he won't do well without help. Also, this is time to assess the players. (Sad but true) Don't rely on that guy who is sleeping on the table, or the guy who hasn't even figured out what his class features do. Get a sense for who might act as an informal leader, and who might delay. You also need to know what characters are likely to do if trouble occurs. There's really only a couple of viable answers here: a) I fight from ranged. Generally this character (archer, some wizards) has much more offense than defense. They can win fights for you with damage output if they have decent protection. b) I wade into melee. This one is pretty clear, but I've found two subsets worth talking about. Melee characters tend to focus on either damage, or on AC. It's very hard to do both. c) I'm super mobile (chargers, dervishes, melee rogues). These characters are good for harassment and getting things to happen on the battlefield. Often they have trouble absorbing damage. d) I'm support. (bards, clerics, some wizards, others) I stand in the back rank, and try to help out as best I can. Some of these characters can win the game themselves, others are in the back because they are hiding behind you.
UMiskatonic 07-13-07, 02:41 PM	This assessment is useful because it changes the way you fight (or it should). If the party is mostly made up of ranged attackers, then you will be very offensively minded. You'll need to make two adjustments. 1) Grab a little bit more battlefield control. That entangle/Evard's/etc. will slow down the enemy enough that they'll never reach you. You have a lot of offense, and enemies that are not counter attacking won't last long. 2) You MUST have a designated 'stopper', the one (two is better) guy who steps up to the bad guy and engages him. Ranged guys have trouble doing this themselves, because of AC, AOs, all kinds of reasons. Give this guy all the support you can (shield of faith, barkskin, etc.), and remind this player that they are there to act as a doorstop. If they can live for five rounds, the rest of the party will have won the battle. I recommend fighting defensively. If the party is made up of melee guys, the tactics change. Fights will last longer, and become more of a slow + steady slog. A table of fighters and clerics is VERY durable, but can't pull off the one round victories that wizards can. 1) Move toward spells that help each swing, since you'll be doing a lot of that. Bless, Haste, Prayer all become more valuable as the fight gets longer. Move away from direct damage like magic missile, you are surrounded by people who do nothing but damage. 2) Grab more utility spells, like see invisibility, because your table of fighters can't do that very well. 3) BUFF THE MELEE GUYS, not yourself. This is more effective, since they've got the feats and equipment to take best advantage of the extra bonuses. It's also more efficient, because the caster uses the spell, and then the melee guy can full attack the same round. 4) Let them come to you. If you go charging ahead, you're losing. Let them charge, and you can then full attack in return. Also, you stay within range of your support, and can often receive helpful spells if you stay in range.
Mommy was an Orc 07-13-07, 02:50 PM	deleted, wlll add later
UMiskatonic 07-13-07, 02:51 PM	The Mobile party: Personally, I think this is rare. Usually, there are 1-2 mobile people and then the rest of the party. Generally, the adjustments have to come from the non-mobile characters. 1) A mobile guy is NOT going to stand between you and the bad guy. Therefore, you have to be prepared to deal with enemies getting very close to you. Have defenses ready, or appoint a 'stopper' like the ranged table. 2) Don't screw with your pal's mobility. Don't block a charge lane, don't put up a wall of fire between him and the enemy, etc. Anticipate where they might go, and talk (briefly) about it. 3) Likewise, if you are the mobile guy, there will be times when you just want to stand in front of the group in the 5ft hallway, and take full attacks. Yeah, you've got some good moves, but losing all of your allies isn't worth it. 4) If you're the mobile guy, take some responsibility. You could EASILY be 4-5 rounds away from any kind of healer. Remember that some of us move at 15'. Have an escape plan, and know when to use it. The support party This one is tough. Occassionally, you get a table full of people who would all rather be in the back. That won't work. You'll have to designate someone to move up to the front, and support them with everything you have. Long-term support is great here, magic circle, magic vestment, false life, etc. Sometimes, you be sending the rogue/invisible blade to fight the annis with a dagger, but with the right support, (spells, flanking, aiding) you can squeeze out a victory.
Demoyn 07-13-07, 03:56 PM	Understand and use basic tactics to the best of your ability. Read up on flanking and aid another. These two basic combat tactics can make or break your party. Never spend an entire round doing nothing. If you can't play to your strengths, then help another party member out. If you aren't a big tough fighter type, then get a long spear and assist from BEHIND the fighter (wizards are possibly excluded in this, as they can't use a longspear very well). Understand ready action and delay action. Your current spot in the initiative isn't always the best place to take your turn. Sure your fireball will be effective if it hits 3 enemies, but if you can delay until after the enemy moves (or after your ally retreats so he isn't in range), then you'll be that much more effective. This also goes hand in hand with... Understand how to anticipate actions. This is a little more advanced, but once you get used to the different archetypes mentioned above (melee, ranged, mobile, ect.), you'll be able to anticipate what you believe is their best move. This can allow you to funnel your enemy (or allies) into a much more advantageous position. Think of a chess match, as it's much the same. Continually ask your self, "If I move here, where will they move?" Use that to your advantage. Even if your DM has good tactics, he probably doesn't have the time or mental capacity to constantly plan ahead while continually answering questions or judging the battle like you do. Understand more advanced tactics such as withdraw, bull rush, grapple, ect. Withdraw is the most important, as it can often save lives by disallowing AoOs when you're at low hp, but they all have very unique and very valuable effects. You don't have to have a drawn out melee brawl with that chaos beast if you just bull rush him off the ledge 5' away. Grapple is ESPECIALLY effective against arcane casters. It's rather hard to cast spells when your hands are busy preventing someone from choking you to death. Understand the terrain around you. This is slightly more important at lower levels due to the lack of mobilizing spells, but it's viable all the way to retirement. This is hard to be specific on, but it goes hand in hand with planning your enemies' moves. Make sure that the wizard keeps the fighters between himself and the enemies. Make sure that you're aware of spots that hamper movement. If the enemy can't take a free 5' step, then you'll get an AoO! Also realize that if YOU can't take a 5' step, the ENEMY will get a free AoO. Use bottlenecks to force the enemy to melee with your fighters, don't just stand in open ground so they attack your wizard or cleric instead. Don't stand in fireball formation around a wizard if you can help it. Take the higher ground; if you don't want the free +5% chance to hit, I'm sure your enemy wouldn't mind using it at all. Try to leave yourself in a position to get the most AoOs possible (though not at the cost of leaving your wizards unprotected). I could go on and on, but it all works around the same principle; know the terrain around you and use it to your advantage. Overall, just know your options. Keep in mind that no matter what, if you flank an enemy and aid another with the fighter, you just increased his chance to hit by 20%. Every 5 swings he makes (and at higher levels that can be every round), your +4 will make a difference. If you need more persuasion, then just realize that the 20% tactical bonus you provide is twice what your chance to stabalize is (which you'll eventually be trying to do if nobody can hit your enemy).
Mommy was an Orc 07-13-07, 04:04 PM	I think there are several critical things to realize about teamwork: Adapt to your group, don't make them adapt to you. If you see a big weak spot that isn't the natural position for your character, but you'd be okay at it, you should be able to fill it - an example being the archer who is the frontliner. If your build/roleplaying theme has an unexpected weak spot or quirk, tell the group. A Cleric who won't heal in combat as an example. If your Cleric won't do that, I can work around it if I know about it. Think about how your action synergizes with the rest of your party - are you making it easier to get a flank? Are you blocking a charge lane to your casters? Does your spell let the Rogue get Sneak Attack damage and is that worth losing your action?
ShinAkuma2 07-13-07, 05:31 PM	For the love of crap, don't forget the Aid Another action.
Sieylianna 07-13-07, 06:15 PM	It's not the other PCs job to provide consumables for you to use. Buy a wand of CLW as soon as you get a chance. Buy a couple of healing potions after your first module. If there is a buff spell you commonly request, pick up a pearl of power of the appropriate level when you have a chance. If someone dies (and it wasn't due to extreme stupidity), everyone should help pay for the raise. Maybe it takes you an extra module to get your +5 sword of kill everything, but some day the shoe may be on the other foot. (And the person who has to cripple his PC through item sales isn't going to forget what you did and he's going to tell everyone.) Ed
Demoyn 07-13-07, 06:21 PM	For the love of crap, don't forget the Aid Another action. I do believe it was the first (and last) thing I talked about in my section!
wangka 07-13-07, 07:09 PM	This is great; since it's geared for beginners maybe some spell suggestions by class or more low-cost item suggestions (I've read that even early on at low APLs silver, cold iron, oils of bless weapon/magic weapon are good to have) may be helpful? I'd like to suggest that, even though D&D is a roleplaying game, that the episodic/pick-up-game nature of Living Greyhawk means everyone will have a better time if you limit how deterimental "role-playing" your character is to the team. Playing cowards, the unpredictable/insane, the foolish, etc. can be fun when you play in a long campaign with the same players like in a home game. But insisting on playing the self-righteous fanatic / overly antagonistic blowhard / scheming backstabber that gives away an advantage or otherwise significantly lowers the party's survival rate... That may not be so fun in LG.
ezreal2001 07-13-07, 11:06 PM	This is great; since it's geared for beginners maybe some spell suggestions by class or more low-cost item suggestions (I've read that even early on at low APLs silver, cold iron, oils of bless weapon/magic weapon are good to have) may be helpful? I'd like to suggest that, even though D&D is a roleplaying game, that the episodic/pick-up-game nature of Living Greyhawk means everyone will have a better time if you limit how deterimental "role-playing" your character is to the team. Playing cowards, the unpredictable/insane, the foolish, etc. can be fun when you play in a long campaign with the same players like in a home game. But insisting on playing the self-righteous fanatic / overly antagonistic blowhard / scheming backstabber that gives away an advantage or otherwise significantly lowers the party's survival rate... That may not be so fun in LG. Well if I might, the following equipment is allways usefull: Allways have at least one weapon that covers each damage category (bashing, slashing percing weapons)that is: so 1 club or mace or morningstar or sling, 1 sword or axe (I'm sure there's a simple type but I'm too lazy to look it up), & 1 spear or rapier or dagger or bow or Xbow If you're really on the ball take the time to learn how reach weapons work and check out loong spears and polearms You can also promote a team feel by handing stuff out as needed. And special mention make sure the archers aren't just carrying regular arrows - Blunt Arrows are now open access as are Slashing arrows (forgot the name, my bad, anyway its in Races of the Wild) Make sure you have cold iron and silver eqivs for your prefered weapons And when the oppertunity arrises get Adamantium (or is that Adamantine whatever). Yes you'll a need a golfbag, but at least you won't be remembered as a member of that APL2 party with bows and swords and longspears that desparly tryed to fight of a hoard of skeletons. Allways have Smokesticks and Tanglefoot bags, the former provides concealment and ruins charge lanes, the latter causes Large or smaller oponents to incur a -4 dex penalty (allways good), a half move penalty (which as I understand prevents 5' steps/adjust - if anyone can correct me on this feel free this item is really powerfull as is), and if the victim is really unluckly the're unable to leave their current locataion.
Demoyn 07-14-07, 12:25 AM	Let me clean Ezreal's post up a little bit. As far as equipment goes, there's a few absolute neccessities. First, make sure that you have all the items required by your class. Examples are thieve's tools, holy symbols, and spell component pouches. The next most important items are more of the basics. Light sources are always good to have (even if you're a dwarf or half-orc), and acid/alchemist's fire are absolute must haves by level 2. Then comes damage types. A morningstar is a great secondary weapon because it can be used for either bludgeoning OR piercing. Slashing weapons are important for zombies, so make sure to have one of those also. After that would probably be a cold iron weapon and a silver weapon. Adamantine is also on this list, but at 3,000 gold, it's not a weapon for a beginner. Smokesticks, tanglefoot bags, and thunderstones in my experience are used much less often than the above, but they can make or break a combat on rare occasions. It's nice to have them, but if you can't afford them, they're generally lesser priority. As far as magic is concerned, make sure to upgrade your weapon before 4th level (or at least have a way to cast magic weapon). Typically you want your weapon to be one of the first things you buy (unless you're an arcane caster). Other staples (aside from magic armor and shields, which should be the second and third items for all-but-arcane) include stat increase items and resistance boost items. Vests of resistance are generally the best, since they fill a slot rarely used. Arcane casters will want to stick closer to the basics. Scribe scrolls and create wondrous items (stat items and pearls of power). In general, create an item to enhance your primary casting stat, another for constitution, two or three pearls of power, and spend all of the rest of your money on use-once scrolls (like comprehend languages and magic weapon). Don't forget to save whatever you can to put towards your first magic missile wand at 5th level. In addition, ALL characters need to have as soon as possible: 2 potions of cure light wounds (one for you and one for your bleeding cleric), a potion of protection from evil, a potion (or 3) of lesser restoration, a potion of fly, and a wand of cure light wounds (to give to your party's cleric, ranger, paladin, bard, or healer). All of these things seem like a waste of money... until you're one hit from death with your cleric laying on the floor (or 25' away). At this point it seems like the best money you've ever spent (much cheaper than a raise)! Replace the word "potions" with the word "scrolls" where applicable.
bitznarf 07-14-07, 12:59 AM	Not really related to teamwork, but it is related to new players/new PCs. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=794735
ShinAkuma2 07-14-07, 03:19 AM	I do believe it was the first (and last) thing I talked about in my section! I wouldn't know. I didn't read it.
Dr.Cornelius 07-14-07, 05:55 AM	Don't Give In to the Random Initiative Roll The initiative you happen to roll frequently is not the optimal place to take an action. Consider delaying until the party caster gets off the buff/hoser/area control spell. Rogues - if another party member is in position to set up a flank, be sure and let them go first. Ready Actions Readied actions can be some of the best tactics in the game. Melee types - rather than charging the melee monster, your best move is often to ready an action to attack when the monster comes into range - thus denying the BBEG a full attack. Casters and Archers - ready an action to put damage on an enemy when he starts to cast a spell. Same with Silence, and consider targeting the floor. You can also Silence the fighter before he charges. Silence An entire thread could be devoted to Silence - it is useful for stealth, shutting down casters, preventing guards from raising the alarm, etc. One key to remember is that Silence is an Emanation*. You can cast silence on the top of a person's head (or a skullcap) and use a common hat to turn the silence on and off. Most DMs allow doffing a hat as a free action, but check with your DM ahead of time. A party at APL 4 and above should have Silence available as a spell or scroll. Reach Weapons Reach weapons are useful in a number of situations: - extra attacks against creatures w/o reach - especially a large number of weak monsters like goblins or zombies. - fighting over another party member in a narrow corridor. - avoiding AOO from reach monsters. Most characters should strongly consider packing a non-reach weapon, a light weapon and a reach weapon. Melee types should have a reach weapon no more than one step below their primary weapon. For example, a fighter with a +1 Longsword should also have a Masterwork Glaive, Guisarme or other reach weapon. Longspear is a good choice for those without martial weapon proficiency - remember, you don't have to hit to provide a flank or aid another. Soaking AOOs Have a plan to deal with AOOs. For example, reach monsters will just maul low AC characters like Barbarians. Lead with the high AC tank or a character with the Mobility feat to soak the AOO, then have the Barbarian come in with a big attack. This is essential against Trip monsters too. Once the primary melee character gets tripped he is in big trouble. Other characters with good HP should consider moving adjacent to the trip monster then away again just to soak the AOO. This allows the fighter to stand up and fight normally without taking an AOO (unless the monster has Combat Reflexes). Having another character soak the AOO is also a good way to get a Grapple going. For example, against a spellcaster you can send in a "stooge" to attempt to start a Grapple. The spellcaster may hit with the AOO and prevent the grapple, but then the silenced fighter comes in and only has to make a touch attack and beat the caster on a Grapple check. Special Attacks Melee types - learn how to use the Special Attacks on p.154 of the PHB. Grapple, Bull Rush, Overrun, Trip, Sunder, etc. can be very useful when applied in just the right situation. Scrolls Scrolls are relatively cheap, especially for Wizards who make their own. Every character should bring along a scroll or three at APL 2 and by APL 4 the party should have a broad selection of arcane and divine scrolls available - especially ones that are not level dependent. You never know when Hold Portal, Comprehend Languages, Obscuring Mist, Resurgence or some other 1st level spell will come in handy. Wizards Leaving Spell Slots Open Wizards can leave spell slots open and memorize in 15 minutes (PHB p.178). Consider leaving at least one spell slot open for contingencies. For example, a 5th level Wizard could leave open a 1st or 2nd level slot and spend 15 minutes to prepare a spell as required. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- *Emanation - see PHB p.175
Demoyn 07-14-07, 10:52 AM	I wouldn't know. I didn't read it. I am saddened. :(
SgtHulka 07-14-07, 01:38 PM	I just thought I'd mention a morningstar is piercing AND bludgeoning, not piercing OR bludgeoning. That means you don't gain the piercing bonus when underwater, which is the main reason to carry a piercing weapon (unless there are a number of Monster Manual II+ creatures I'm unware of that have DR/piercing). The dagger, by comparison, is piercing OR slashing.
thorinXXX 07-14-07, 01:58 PM	The biggest aspect of teamwork is attitude. You must have the attitude of 'what can I do to make the team better'. Usually this means not hogging the spotlight. As has been said earlier, even if it it is not your normal role, if the job needs doing, do it. If you are the only healer in the party, be the healer; even if you usually smash things. If you are an archer and there is no tank, only squishies; put down the bow and tank- you are the one with the decent AC and hitpoints. Do not put the party in danger just so you can show off. Don't be the guy who charges and gets one attack to the enemies' five attacks and now makes it so the wizard can't fireball all of the bad guys. Don't expose the squishies to a charge just so you can get the kill on a minion.
trollbill 07-14-07, 04:11 PM	COMMUNICATION is the single most important aspect to teamwork. Find out what everyone can do, what they can't do, what they want to do, and what they are willing to do. The better you know your companions, the better a team you make. BE VERSITILE. This goes double in LG. Have a secondary job you can take even if you aren't that good at it AND BE WILLING TO DO SO WHEN THE NEED ARISES. You are unlikely to get a balanced party, but balanced parties are the most powerful. So be able and willing to fill another's shoes in order to balance it out. Ignore everyone that tells you how cool it is to be an uber-specialist. The more specialized a character becomes, the more of a one-trick pony he becomes and the more of liability he becomes to the party when he can't do his one trick. On top of that, the mental processes required to uber-specialize are usually antithetical to team thinking. Having one thing you do good is great. Having only one thing you do good, even if you do it better than anyone else, is bad from a team aspect.
copper_wyrmling 07-14-07, 07:43 PM	I kinda disagree with Trollbill. Being versatile is good, but also... Play to the team's strengths Sometimes a table cannot be shoehorned into a close approximation of an iconic balanced party, and it is better for everyone to focus on their specialization rather than taking a secondary role that they're much weaker at - this is more true at high levels than low levels, where everyone is inevitably more specialized. If you're APL 10 with three single-class wizards and two single-class sorcerers and nobody has Leadership, then you do NOT want to try to make one of the arcanes into a pseudo-melee or blocker (who spends their first actions throwing up shield and mirror image) and one of them into a pseudo-healer (who devotes all their actions to administering potions to people) - it's usually a better idea to take advantage of the fact that everyone can probably fly, most of the party can probably ddoor / teleport, you have enough spells to be invisible for a lot of the time, and you can burn divinations (arcane eye, prying eyes) to warn you of upcoming combats. (Summon Monster spells can also make good blockers in close quarters, although they're not always compatible with Magic Circle.) I know this is a guide for beginners and this point is a lot more true at high APLs than low APLs (at APL 2, everybody's a generalist), but since you can get to L7-8 in your first year, I figured it was worth stating. Also, a couple of comments on UMiskatonic's posts: - In a range-focused party, you don't need someone to be the blocker IF you have some other way to maintain distance between you and the bad guys. This can mean insane spot checks that let you begin combat from a large distance, battlefield control spells that slow the enemies down a lot, mobility spells that let you stay out of their reach, or some combination of the above. - "Buff the melee guys, not yourself" is very good advice if you don't have any feats / equipment invested in melee. If you're a caster whose secondary specialization is melee (e.g. the cleric with starting Str 16, a holy wounding weapon and Power Attack), then sometimes buffing yourself gives a better overall effect than buffing the fighters, since Personal buffs tend to be more powerful than those you can place on other people. If you're expecting the fight to last 5+ rounds anyway, the time loss involved in cast-on-self+move+full-attack-next-round as opposed to move+cast-on-fighter+fighter-full-attacks-this-round is not really significant. However, if the party is really heavy on melee types then multi-target buffs tend to be a lot more powerful than single-target (prayer rather than bull's strength, for example).
Hariman 07-14-07, 10:28 PM	Think carefully before leaving one party member exposed to help another. This has happened more than once with one of my characters. One of the party members has stepped out of the way of an enemy's attack lane and not only did my character suffer for it, so did the entire party. WRITE DOWN THE INITIATIVE ORDER AND MAKE SURE THAT YOU HEAL AT A GOOD TIME. If the party's main healer is down and vulnerable, then delay and heal the cleric before his or her initiative. Healing before the enemy's initiative is just asking for it. Also, knowing who comes next is VERY important. It can mean the difference between getting two flanking full attacks on an enemy or two single attacks on an enemy. Don't antagonize a player to get teamwork out of him. Yelling at a player or trying to boss him around will likely get the exact opposite result. Or at the very best, angry grudging teamwork that leaves a bad taste in his mouth. Remember the range on certain spells. If you give a wand of Enlarge Person to the party wizard, stay within 25 ft for the first round and a half so that he can use it without moving. If you want touch range buffing, stay near the wizard (Preferably protecting him) so that he can reach you. Hariman
Mommy was an Orc 07-14-07, 10:34 PM	Be aware of what SR-No spells the party can cast. These are often lifesavers, especially against constructs. Ditto for Illusion(Figments) which can often destroy the effectiveness of Mindless.
_metz_ 07-14-07, 11:41 PM	Play to the team's strengths - "Buff the melee guys, not yourself" is very good advice if you don't have any feats / equipment invested in melee. If you're a caster whose secondary specialization is melee (e.g. the cleric with starting Str 16, a holy wounding weapon and Power Attack), then sometimes buffing yourself gives a better overall effect than buffing the fighters, since Personal buffs tend to be more powerful than those you can place on other people. If you're expecting the fight to last 5+ rounds anyway, the time loss involved in cast-on-self+move+full-attack-next-round as opposed to move+cast-on-fighter+fighter-full-attacks-this-round is not really significant. However, if the party is really heavy on melee types then multi-target buffs tend to be a lot more powerful than single-target (prayer rather than bull's strength, for example). Figure out WHO to buff: (in other words ask, if they don't tell you, then its their fault.) Sometimes casting mage armour on the bard will be more useful than casting it on the Barbarian whose AC is so terrible they are going to be hit anyways... I have found with my Battle Cleric that buffing myself usually works out better than buffing some other fighters, here is an example: My cleric spends 3 rounds buffing a Barbarian who then wastes his actions not power attacking or raging, and wastes he benefits given. My cleric Buffs himself, slaps on Divine Power, then goes and lays some serious smackdown. VARY WHAT YOU DO FOR YOUR PARTY! Ask Pertinent questions like: 'What is your will save', or 'How many hits can you take before you go down, or 'what can I do to make you better at what you do?' e.g: - The NUMBER of times a Fighter with +30 to hit has charged and taken my Rogue's flanking spot (when there have been other options to take) is a pet peeve. - If I am playing with a bunch of players who all worship the same deity as me, Recitation is really a must. - Checking with other casters that you haven't doubled up on spells, and checking what the fighter really NEEDS rather than wants. A 9th level 12 con front line fighter with a greataxe and 20 strength is likely to need Bears Endurance more than bulls strength, regardless of what the other player thinks is cooler. Finally: Everybody likes haste
tilloch 07-15-07, 12:02 AM	I only have one thing to say to everyone who contributed to this thread. THANK YOU! I have a constant influx of new players that can use this as a little semi-checklist. Tilloch
LGMoses 07-15-07, 12:21 AM	I often find the aid another actions unused. People I guess want to hit things on their own no matter how bad they are at it. I agree with what is said above though, combined with flank, aid is a very powerful tool. I try to convince my players to use it whenever they can.
Hariman 07-15-07, 12:44 AM	Sometimes casting shield on the bard will be more useful than casting it on the Barbarian whose AC is so terrible they are going to be hit anyways... [B]Finally: Everybody likes haste One: Shield is personal, you must mean mage armor. Two: You must mean "Everybody LOVES haste!" I have seen Haste do blessed things in some of the most difficult mods. I purchased a Scroll of Haste in one particularly difficult mod and it made the final encounter MUCH easier. That extra attack for the BDF and the Druid's animal companion was a godsend. It WILL be in my rogue/wizard's spellbook by the time he can cast it. And my sorcerer will get it on his spell list as well. Another note: Above, someone said: "It is not the responsibility for other characters/players to bring consumables for your character." BUT: Even if you don't need them, having certain items for the party is an excellent idea. Carry Silk Rope and a grappling hook, have a spare torch, carry alchemist's fires, acid flasks, holy waters, antitoxins, a tanglefoot bag, scrolls of key support spells. Fly, Prot Evil, Magic Circle against Evil, See invisibility, Scrolls of ANY healing spell, Wands of healing spells (Especially Happy Sticks, AKA, Cure Light Wounds Wands) Remove Paralysis and Remove Blindness are musts. (Potions of Remove Blindness, please.) Lesser Restoration Potions are also a must. An Adamantine Longspear carried by a sorcerer is a major boon when you encounter animated objects or other things with hardness. And it provides decent two handed damage for the party brute. And don't be afraid to use these items on other party members. Heck, bring a few along just for other party members. As a wizard, copy a few spells that will benefit other characters, even if you are a "Boom" style wizard. Sonic Weapon is a good example, +1d6 sonic damage doesn't seem like much, until it adds to three monk flurry attacks or to an archer's rapid shot. Or maybe that sonic damage is the only thing making past the DR/10 consistently. At the very least, add a few spells like Bull's Strength, Haste, Fly, Prot Evil, Resist energy and others will help out. And make sure you prepare them. A spellbook with a thousand spells is only worth the spells you actually use.
trollbill 07-15-07, 01:59 AM	I kinda disagree with Trollbill. Being versatile is good, but also... Play to the team's strengths Sometimes a table cannot be shoehorned into a close approximation of an iconic balanced party, and it is better for everyone to focus on their specialization rather than taking a secondary role that they're much weaker at - this is more true at high levels than low levels, where everyone is inevitably more specialized. If you're APL 10 with three single-class wizards and two single-class sorcerers and nobody has Leadership, then you do NOT want to try to make one of the arcanes into a pseudo-melee or blocker (who spends their first actions throwing up shield and mirror image) and one of them into a pseudo-healer (who devotes all their actions to administering potions to people) - it's usually a better idea to take advantage of the fact that everyone can probably fly, most of the party can probably ddoor / teleport, you have enough spells to be invisible for a lot of the time, and you can burn divinations (arcane eye, prying eyes) to warn you of upcoming combats. (Summon Monster spells can also make good blockers in close quarters, although they're not always compatible with Magic Circle.) I know this is a guide for beginners and this point is a lot more true at high APLs than low APLs (at APL 2, everybody's a generalist), but since you can get to L7-8 in your first year, I figured it was worth stating. You didn't so much disagree with me as make examples of good and bad use of versitility. In your examples above, you listed casting buff spells on one of the casters so that they could act as party tank. With little other talent to be tank, you are indeed right that isn't a good idea (though Tenser's Transformation might not be a bad choice, and before it was banned, polymorph). But you also mention a great example of a good way of using an arcanist to tank, i.e. using Summon Monster spells. But without sufficient versitility, having the right spell mix to cover the bases doesn't work. The big key to versitility is the more specialized you become, the more weaknesses you have, and thus the greater effort your teammates have to expend to cover your weaknesses. And if they are expending effort to cover your weaknesses, they are less likely to be playing to their own strengths. Though I will freely admit that too much versitility is almost as bad as too much specialization. You do need to have at least one thing you are very good at.
Dr.Cornelius 07-15-07, 02:04 AM	Ditto for Illusion(Figments) which can often destroy the effectiveness of Mindless.Illusion(Figment) is covered in the PHB on page 173. Having difficulty finding Mindless in PHB & MM - can you provide the page reference.
Magicstar 07-15-07, 03:41 AM	I see some very good tips up here. In one of the latter post I here mentions of a torch as light source. Don't forget a torch can also be used against a swarm and torch don't auto light. One time my party threw all their consumables on the first 2 swarms and when they were taken care of the third emerged. We had nothing left to fight them but torches. When we realized that and people wanted to lit the torches, it's quite a disillusion when nobody caries any tindertwigs and only 1 in the party had a flint and steel. SO: Take atleast as much tindertwigs as torches!
Hariman 07-15-07, 04:04 AM	I see some very good tips up here. In one of the latter post I here mentions of a torch as light source. Don't forget a torch can also be used against a swarm and torch don't auto light. One time my party threw all their consumables on the first 2 swarms and when they were taken care of the third emerged. We had nothing left to fight them but torches. When we realized that and people wanted to lit the torches, it's quite a disillusion when nobody caries any tindertwigs and only 1 in the party had a flint and steel. SO: Take atleast as much tindertwigs as torches! Don't look at me, I just forgot to mention them. My characters have torch and tindertwig together! Oh yeah, crowbars, pitons, signal whistles and a whole host of other mundane items have valuable uses. If you have the strength, have a haversack, or are a dwarf, you should have a LOT of spare mundane items, just in case.
copper_wyrmling 07-15-07, 04:09 AM	You didn't so much disagree with me as make examples of good and bad use of versitility. Sure, that's why I said "kinda" ;) If by "versatility" you mean something like "picking spells other than direct damage for your sorcerer", then yes, no argument there at all (although you're talking about build here, not tactics). I've just seen people talk about the importance of versatility when what they mean is "every archer should be willing to go into melee, because every party needs a meatshield", or "this party is doomed because they don't have anyone who can tank / heal", and I think that's very limiting. There's a difference between building your character to have options in combat (which is usually a good idea) and handicapping yourself and your party by trying to fill a "role" that the party lacks when you're actually much better at something else. In your examples above, you listed casting buff spells on one of the casters so that they could act as party tank. With little other talent to be tank, you are indeed right that isn't a good idea (though Tenser's Transformation might not be a bad choice, and before it was banned, polymorph). But you also mention a great example of a good way of using an arcanist to tank, i.e. using Summon Monster spells. Well... in the all-arcane parties that I've played in, nobody ever cast Summon Monster spells, because there wasn't much point - we didn't need to use our spells to compensate for the lack of meatshields. That's kinda what I meant - you don't always need to insist on "covering the bases", so long as you have some way to accomplish your basic objectives, which are not "emulate an iconic party", they tend to be "kill or bypass the monsters, get past the traps, get the plot items / rescuees back to base". The big key to versitility is the more specialized you become, the more weaknesses you have, and thus the greater effort your teammates have to expend to cover your weaknesses. Hrmmmmm... it depends what you think specialization means. When I think of a specialist I think of, for example, a low-Con high-Str high-Dex machinegun wood elf archer, who spends pretty much every round of every combat full attacking with his bow. He's sufficiently specialized in archery that doing anything other than full-attacking the bad guys is very likely to be a suboptimal use of his actions. He's fairly fragile (not having spent much money on defences), but his weaknesses rarely come into play, because his specialization doesn't expose them. There are not many situations where his ranged full attack won't be an effective contribution, precisely because of how much he's specialized in it. He's not versatile at all in the sense of "covering iconic roles" - he can't heal, he makes a lousy meatshield, he can't find traps, although he can probably track and has good alertness skills due to ranger levels. However, he is a perfectly effective character, and a strong contributor to pretty much any party, provided they let him use his abilities. (I'm not talking about a particular character here, rather an archetype that I've seen on several occasions and have always been happy to play with, despite the extreme predictability of their actions in combat ;) ) And if they are expending effort to cover your weaknesses, they are less likely to be playing to their own strengths. I don't think this is so much an issue of versatility, but it does bring up a good point. Don't rely on others to cover your weaknesses for you It is not a good idea to have a gameplan that boils down to "The cleric and wizard will buff me, then I'll charge in, do loads of damage, then take the full attack and be down to 2 HP, but it won't matter because the cleric will come after me and heal me back up, and if there's not a cleric then I'll hide in the middle of the party and go full defence" ;) It leads to a character that doesn't contribute much to the party, and that actively makes the game less enjoyable for other players (it's not fun to deal with accusations of letting another player down because you're not spending all your actions on buffing and healing their PC).
Mommy was an Orc 07-15-07, 10:15 AM	Illusion(Figment) is covered in the PHB on page 173. Having difficulty finding Mindless in PHB & MM - can you provide the page reference. Mindless are things such as skeletons or vermin - they're immune to mind-affecting spells. Illusion(Figment) is not mind-affecting, so they get hit by it - most Mindless things have very poor Will Saves, so they very slowly see through it.
Mommy was an Orc 07-15-07, 11:19 AM	Hrmmmmm... it depends what you think specialization means. When I think of a specialist I think of, for example, a low-Con high-Str high-Dex machinegun wood elf archer, who spends pretty much every round of every combat full attacking with his bow. He's sufficiently specialized in archery that doing anything other than full-attacking the bad guys is very likely to be a suboptimal use of his actions. Except when you're in a tightly bottled up situation, you've got the best AC in the party, and a lot of fragiles behind you, someone's gotta be in front...this is especially true when the fragiles are not being played well or effectively. Another example is when your BDF gets grappled/paralyzed by a Chuul as an example. Do you shoot into the grapple, or do you swing a Greatsword while hasted? In both of those situations, I stepped up and made the party functional. If I had not done that, the 1st mod likely would have resulted in 2-3 deaths, the 2nd mod would have had the BDF die.
trollbill 07-15-07, 03:08 PM	When I think of a specialist I think of, for example, a low-Con high-Str high-Dex machinegun wood elf archer, who spends pretty much every round of every combat full attacking with his bow. He's sufficiently specialized in archery that doing anything other than full-attacking the bad guys is very likely to be a suboptimal use of his actions. He's fairly fragile (not having spent much money on defences), but his weaknesses rarely come into play, because his specialization doesn't expose them. There are not many situations where his ranged full attack won't be an effective contribution, precisely because of how much he's specialized in it. Thank you for bringing up what I think is one of the biggest obstacles to teamwork I have ever seen in my 30+ years of playing D&D: the Archer Myth that the best thing an archer can always do to help the party is shoot his bow. And in my very long time of gaming this has been proven to be a false Myth time and time again. Sure, the best thing an archer usually can do is shoot his bow, but this is no more true than the best thing a spellcaster can usually do is cast a spell or the best thing a meleer can usually do is enter melee. Archers are not some kind of special breed apart that they are somehow magically the only character type that the rules applying to lack of versitility and uber-specialization being bad for teamwork do not apply to. While it may sound good in theory, especially to those who want to justify their bad team playing as an archer, my gaming experiences have proven this myth false time and time again. And that single myth has created a lot of bad archers out there because too many people preach this false religion and too many others buy into it . These bad archers are Teamwork Vampires. They require a team to support them but give nothing back other than offensive damage. Even the uber-focused melee damager gives back to the party more than that. And their mindset is not what they can do for the team, but what the team can do for them. It is bad for teamwork in every way. To give a real life example of what I mean, I have seen two very similar situations played out with two very different types of mindsets for archers. In both cases the archers were specialized in archery. Case 1: The Good Teamwork Archer A tough battle occured in which the front rank PCs were taken out very early in the battle, this left only the back rank of spellcasters and the archer left. The archer was about 80% focused on archery with another 20% put into some versitility (a usable melee weapon, some AC, some utility items, etc). The archer dropped his bow and entered melee. He wasn't nearly as effective as he was with is bow, but he wasn't totally ineffective and with many fighter-type levels and high dex, was able to stand in the front rank for several rounds while the casters where able to save downed party members, cast spells on the monsters, etc. In the end, the archer and the rest of the party were badly beaten up, but they won and only 1 of them died. Case 2: The Bad Teamwork Archer A very similar battle occured to the one mentioned above. In this case we had an uber-specialized archer who was about 95% focused on archery and maybe 5% more effective at archery than the other archer because of it (specialization always reaches a point of diminishing returns). He bought into the Archer Myth and when the front rank dropped and all the squishy spellcasters begged him to stand in front, he used the Myth to justify not doing so and continued to stay at range and shoot. As the last spellcaster went down, he plugged the last monster with his bow and it died. In the end, he walked away without a scratch on him and the rest of the party was dead. Worse, he then went on to brag about how he was the only one to survive (and did so without a scratch on him) because of how good he was with his bow, thus further spreading the Archer Myth. But he didn't survive because of how good he was with a bow, he survived because how good he was at being a selfish coward.
Genghis Cohen 07-15-07, 04:05 PM	Let Your Animal Companion Die Your druid or ranger can demand a moment of silence after the combat to memorialize Barky. During combat, don't let a PC take a death blow in place of your pooch when you have "Animal Companion Pez Dispenser" as a class feature.
Drezden 07-15-07, 04:28 PM	I have a few comments: 1. I don't think more specialization = worse teamwork. The most important part about teamwork is doing a job well. I'd rather have the BDF who actually has all the feats, items and attributes to stand in the front than someone who tries to cover all the bases and does none of them particularly well. 2. Versality of characters is highly variable. Some classes are easier to adapt than others. A BDF is not very easy to adapt. A wizard - with a large selection of spells - normally is. It is not a matter of be prepared to do other jobs - some PCs can't do other jobs, and asking them to do other jobs is a recipe for failure. 3. Why should an archer be expected to stand in front anymore than a spellcaster? Both are back rank PCs; many wizards will have a better AC, and possibly more HPs (due to False life or crafting Con. items) than an archer. The notion that a specilized archer - just because he might have some fighter/ranger levels is more equipped to stand in the front is wrong. It is highly dependent on the party and the situation. 4. If your "Tanks" are consistently going down, maybe it is their fault and they should be blamed for the poor teamwork and not the archer. Seriously, if you are going to stand in the front, you need to be built to stand in the front. 5. It is hard to comment on particular situations since none of us (other than Trollbill) were there. But, there are a lot of questions that I would need answered before I blamed the archer. Questions like: a. Why couldn't the spellcasters slow the monster(s) down? No battlefield control at all? If so, that is "poor teamwork." b. How fragile were the spellcasters? Shouldn't they be expected to be versatile too? or is that only for Archers? c. Was the archer the only one doing damage? After all, someone had to take out the enemy. If not, then you might have had a total TPK. Again I would really have to know all the particulars before I would say the archer was at fault. For the record, I have an archer who has gotten into Melee at various times (nice to have 2 monk levels for grappling) when the situation warranted it. Daren Thank you for bringing up what I think is one of the biggest obstacles to teamwork I have ever seen in my 30+ years of playing D&D: the Archer Myth that the best thing an archer can always do to help the party is shoot his bow. And in my very long time of gaming this has been proven to be a false Myth time and time again. Sure, the best thing an archer usually can do is shoot his bow, but this is no more true than the best thing a spellcaster can usually do is cast a spell or the best thing a meleer can usually do is enter melee. Archers are not some kind of special breed apart that they are somehow magically the only character type that the rules applying to lack of versitility and uber-specialization being bad for teamwork do not apply to. While it may sound good in theory, especially to those who want to justify their bad team playing as an archer, my gaming experiences have proven this myth false time and time again. And that single myth has created a lot of bad archers out there because too many people preach this false religion and too many others buy into it . These bad archers are Teamwork Vampires. They require a team to support them but give nothing back other than offensive damage. Even the uber-focused melee damager gives back to the party more than that. And their mindset is not what they can do for the team, but what the team can do for them. It is bad for teamwork in every way. To give a real life example of what I mean, I have seen two very similar situations played out with two very different types of mindsets for archers. In both cases the archers were specialized in archery. Case 1: The Good Teamwork Archer A tough battle occured in which the front rank PCs were taken out very early in the battle, this left only the back rank of spellcasters and the archer left. The archer was about 80% focused on archery with another 20% put into some versitility (a usable melee weapon, some AC, some utility items, etc). The archer dropped his bow and entered melee. He wasn't nearly as effective as he was with is bow, but he wasn't totally ineffective and with many fighter-type levels and high dex, was able to stand in the front rank for several rounds while the casters where able to save downed party members, cast spells on the monsters, etc. In the end, the archer and the rest of the party were badly beaten up, but they won and only 1 of them died. Case 2: The Bad Teamwork Archer A very similar battle occured to the one mentioned above. In this case we had an uber-specialized archer who was about 95% focused on archery and maybe 5% more effective at archery than the other archer because of it (specialization always reaches a point of diminishing returns). He bought into the Archer Myth and when the front rank dropped and all the squishy spellcasters begged him to stand in front, he used the Myth to justify not doing so and continued to stay at range and shoot. As the last spellcaster went down, he plugged the last monster with his bow and it died. In the end, he walked away without a scratch on him and the rest of the party was dead. Worse, he then went on to brag about how he was the only one to survive (and did so without a scratch on him) because of how good he was with his bow, thus further spreading the Archer Myth. But he didn't survive because of how good he was with a bow, he survived because how good he was at being a selfish coward.
trollbill 07-15-07, 05:26 PM	I have a few comments: 1. I don't think more specialization = worse teamwork. The most important part about teamwork is doing a job well. I'd rather have the BDF who actually has all the feats, items and attributes to stand in the front than someone who tries to cover all the bases and does none of them particularly well. Considering I already stated previously that too much versitility is almost as bad as too much specilization, this is a pointless counterpoint. 2. Versality of characters is highly variable. Some classes are easier to adapt than others. A BDF is not very easy to adapt. A wizard - with a large selection of spells - normally is. It is not a matter of be prepared to do other jobs - some PCs can't do other jobs, and asking them to do other jobs is a recipe for failure. Each class has it's own way of being versitile and its own tasks it can more easily cover as a secondary ability than others. Verisitily is not being about being able to do everything effectively, its about being able to do multiple things effectively. If your PC is so specialized that he can't do any other job, than he is a poorly built PC (archer or otherwise). The fact that he is an archer does not give him special dispensation. 3. Why should an archer be expected to stand in front anymore than a spellcaster? Both are back rank PCs; many wizards will have a better AC, and possibly more HPs (due to False life or crafting Con. items) than an archer. The notion that a specilized archer - just because he might have some fighter/ranger levels is more equipped to stand in the front is wrong. It is highly dependent on the party and the situation. I never said is wasn't highly situational. The point is that if the archer is the best man for the job, than he should be doing it instead of looking for excuses to only shoot his bow. If archer is never the best man for the job, than he is a poorly built character who is anti-thetical to teamwork. 4. If your "Tanks" are consistently going down, maybe it is their fault and they should be blamed for the poor teamwork and not the archer. Seriously, if you are going to stand in the front, you need to be built to stand in the front. Teamwork is EVERYONE'S business. The moment you exclude your own blame from a failure you are no longer thinking in team terms. I have had weak HP spellcasters (and archers) stand in front of frontliners on many occasions because I could take the hit and they couldn't. None of them ever used the BS excuse that they weren't built to stand in the front lines to avoid this. 5. It is hard to comment on particular situations since none of us (other than Trollbill) were there. But, there are a lot of questions that I would need answered before I blamed the archer. Questions like: a. Why couldn't the spellcasters slow the monster(s) down? No battlefield control at all? If so, that is "poor teamwork." b. How fragile were the spellcasters? Shouldn't they be expected to be versatile too? or is that only for Archers? c. Was the archer the only one doing damage? After all, someone had to take out the enemy. If not, then you might have had a total TPK. This was one example amoungst many. Even if I wanted to waste time explaining all of the details, not matter how immaculate the explanation, anyone who wishes to go over it with a fine toothed come could no doubt find some minute flaw they could use to try to make it appear like one minute flaw makes the entire example invalid. This is called not seeing the forest for the trees. If you'd rather find ways of not trying to understand my point than ways of trying to understand it, I can't think of a better way of doing it. For the record, I have an archer who has gotten into Melee at various times (nice to have 2 monk levels for grappling) when the situation warranted it. So you have an archer that not only can do something else other than shoot his bow, but may in fact be able to do so better than anyone else in the party (most characters are only good at grappling if they make special effort to do so). Even more important than being able to do something else well, you have demonstrated that you WILL do something else other than shoot your bow when that is needed of you. So it seems to me you understand what makes a good archer. So what are you arguing with me about?
Drezden 07-15-07, 07:45 PM	Ha ha - I don't even know if I am arguing with you specifically. This whole archer example is just one that has come up so many times, that I was more taking issue with people always wanting the archer to tank. I was just trying to point out that it isn't always that simple. But, yes, with my archer I have had to use other skills - mainly the monk/grappling thing more than a few times. At least 1 time, I just had an open path to an obvious arcane spellcaster and didn't think I could bring him down on my action, so dropped the bow, rolled up and grappled him. Every party that is not familiar with one another just needs to talk through how they plan on handling combat encounters. The first question should be how are we going to kill opponents? Then they should go over various roles other characters can play. Spellcasters especially should coordinate their spells and strategy. Daren [snip] So you have an archer that not only can do something else other than shoot his bow, but may in fact be able to do so better than anyone else in the party (most characters are only good at grappling if they make special effort to do so). Even more important than being able to do something else well, you have demonstrated that you WILL do something else other than shoot your bow when that is needed of you. So it seems to me you understand what makes a good archer. So what are you arguing with me about?
copper_wyrmling 07-15-07, 10:49 PM	Heh. I wasn't expecting the archer example to draw so much heat. Drezden's already said most of what I wanted to say, though. If what you mean by "versatility" is "pay enough attention to the combat that you realize when your usual tactics are a Really Bad Idea, and be willing to react to that", then that's great. I was objecting to the premise that a balanced party is the strongest party, so if you don't have a frontliner, you need to get an archer / cleric / rogue to play meatshield. If your party doesn't have a frontliner, you should have some other strengths, so try to use them. Even if you're good enough at your speciality that it's the right thing to do 99% of the time, nothing is absolute - there will be that 1% of cases where you need to do something else - but it's also important not to overestimate that fraction because you're trying to emulate some idealized party structure (e.g. "every party needs someone who will engage the bad guys in melee", "every party needs someone who will spend their actions healing damage and status effects", etc). As I said at the very start, though, most of my comments on specialization vs versatility apply to high APLs - at low APLs it's a lot easier to be a generalist just by virtue of your 28pt-buy stats. I've just seen a lot more PCs get into trouble because they tried to fill what they saw as the "missing role" in the party, when they weren't equipped to do so, than I've seen real specialists hurt the party because they insisted on playing to their strengths. (The example that immediately springs to mind of the former case was a cavalry character with ride-by-attack who felt a responsibility to be "the party tank" because he had heavy armor and decent HP, so he decided to close with some giants and stay inside full-attack range, despite the fact that the party was in open terrain with a mobility advantage, starting ~100ft away from the giants, and everyone on the table was strong at ranged combat. This triggered a rescue loop that led to a PC death and significant consumable expenditure to avert more deaths.) To be clear, though, I don't play an archer of any level. I play a L15 cleric who's versatile in the sense of being able to fill multiple iconic roles at iconic or above-iconic level (and I built her that way because people refused to play with unbalanced parties, so being able to cover multiple aspects of a balanced party seemed like a good idea), but with no real extraordinary specialization. I also play a fragile L12 sorcerer (starting Con 12, walks around with AC 13) who is almost entirely incapable of contributing to combat if she can't cast spells, and is very weak in the area of buffs and personal defensive magic - she focuses on mobility, battlefield control, debuffs and damage. Both are effective characters that contribute just fine (at least, I think so), but I've found that at the mid-high APLs, the sorcerer contributes more to most parties, and I'm much happier about playing her on weird / unbalanced tables - the cleric suffers from action starvation (I have five good options but it doesn't matter when I can only do one per round), and when I try to adapt her spell choices to the rest of the table, she relies heavily on knowing very precisely what the other PCs can do and what their weaknesses are, which is hard to convey at high-level convention tables.
Hariman 07-16-07, 01:09 AM	Let Your Animal Companion Die Your druid or ranger can demand a moment of silence after the combat to memorialize Barky. During combat, don't let a PC take a death blow in place of your pooch when you have "Animal Companion Pez Dispenser" as a class feature. Oooh, I know a guy who plays a druid, and tries to keep his animal companion alive. I can understand the roleplay aspect, as a druid is the bastion of nature and all that. BUT, he did do the right thing and put his druid's Brown Bear up front. And when he made the comment, "You're treating him like a throwaway" my answer was "No, He's the best tank in the party! He's regularly out damaging our actual tank!" Dang animal companions, there are times when they are stronger than PCs of equal level! So yes, druid players, you should be putting them up front! It's not like the animal companion rules are like leadership/cohort rules. He did lose the bear for a little while, but we had the option of resting so he got a bison for the last encounter. On a different note: USE THOSE CONSUMABLES! If you buy something and never use it, it is a waste. If you have something that you can use well in a clutch situation, USE IT! Don't say later "oh, damn, if I'd only used that" And finally: Double check your character sheet every time you level. It doesn't help anyone if you forget to add your character's extra HP or miss a few skill points. You should be SURE that everything is correct. Making sure can mean the difference between life and death!
Dr.Cornelius 07-16-07, 01:32 AM	And finally: Double check your character sheet every time you level. It doesn't help anyone if you forget to add your character's extra HP or miss a few skill points. You should be SURE that everything is correct. Making sure can mean the difference between life and death!HeroForge and SpellForge (http://www.nzcomputers.net/heroforge/) are excellent tools for generating accurate and complete character sheets. Requires MS Excel but is well worth it.
Demoyn 07-16-07, 01:37 AM	I think the main thing that all these "uber-roleplay druids" need to realize is that, even though humans are considered (humanoid), they're STILL animals under reality. Druids and rangers that will sacrifice a PC over an animal companion need a meta-org named PETA.
Hariman 07-16-07, 01:53 AM	HeroForge and SpellForge (http://www.nzcomputers.net/heroforge/) are excellent tools for generating accurate and complete character sheets. Requires MS Excel but is well worth it. Heroforge was too much of a migraine, and it was too slow. By the time it was lloaded and running, I could have a basic character half done! (OK, not that bad, but still, it took too long to load and having a Mac, and thus not instantly having MS Exhell, I mean, Excel, it didn't work out.) I'd just do a double check every time I level anyway, as I'd want to be absolutely sure. But, yes, they are good tools. If they were a little more accessible to mac users I'd be more uber cinclined to use them. Also, not everyone want to keep a character on a printout. I think the main thing that all these "uber-roleplay druids" need to realize is that, even though humans are considered (humanoid), they're STILL animals under reality. Druids and rangers that will sacrifice a PC over an animal companion need a meta-org named PETA. *Snicker* Yeah, that would fit! But, seriously, the gods/nature grant an ever renewable animal companion to aid the druids. And they offer no penalty for multiple animal companion deaths. Why shouldn't you make your uber companion (especially if you took the one level beastmaster dip) the frontliner? Just don't run your first wolf of the mod through a half dozen Attacks of oppurtunity, and then do it again with the second wolf of the mod. That's what summons are for!
Mommy was an Orc 07-16-07, 10:43 AM	Let's talk a little bit about non-combat... Healer Who is your healer in and out of combat? Does the party have Pearls of Power, Wands, or Scrolls to support this role? Is the rest of the party being fair in contributing consumables? Do any characters have unusually low level spells that are easy to Pearl(Paladins/Pious Tempars/Holy Liberators have Lesser Restoration as a 1st level spell as an example - in a party light on Clerical healing, this can be a lifesaver) - is there someone with a high heal check to defeat Poisons if no one can cast Delay Poison? Remember, the more healing that can be done out of combat, the more useful non-healing spells that person can cast in combat. Face Who is the party face? This doesn't and shouldn't mean they're the only ones talking during an encounter. But it does mean they need to say something to be the person who makes the roll. Encourage them to speak first, then roleplay your character right after that. If your character is an obnoxiously rude, anti-social, 6 charisma type who has to talk, do it when it obviously doesn't count. Go into some random store, berate the shopkeeper for not carrying who knows what(even if they have it), storm out and then play the mod. Trapfinder Decide how you're finding traps or are you. I've been in parties where it turns out the person calling himself a Rogue hasn't maxxed out Search(an elf Ranger 3/Rogue 2 with a Search of +6 being the highlight). I've been in another party where we cast Silence on ourselves while invading a sleeping fortress and we had no time to make extensive search checks. Is there someone with a solid Survival Check and the Track feat - you can often push Track when looking at doors and such. In most mods, it should be obvious to the DM whether or not a particular door sees a lot of foot traffic - if no one goes down a particular corridor(or worse, the tracks suddenly stop at a particular point), you know to be doubly suspicious.
solbergb 07-16-07, 01:07 PM	Just to toss out some things I've learned from playing a variety of characters. A lot of the more general comments I'd have can be already said. Light infantry: Yes it is your job to dash around and beat up squishies in the back rank. This means you are out of support range - when this happens you MUST rescue yourself, not expect to be rescued. You will also sometimes have to "hold the line". You can't usually do this very long, so call out that you need support or you will be moving very soon. The squishies can either heal/buff/shield you from enemy damage, or they can bloody well move so when you move they don't all die. If you are the only melee in the party, you need to ask for support BEFORE the fighting starts, to make everybody aware that you can't stand in line of battle and protect the party long enough to win without spell support to bring AC into reasonable range, miss chance stuff, shield other and/or in-combat healing. Tactical fighters: (grapple/trip) These maneuvers have a chance of failure that is usually larger than your chance of missing the enemy with your weapon. Know when to just hit the enemy instead of being fancy. These maneuvers are usually helpful to the party, but not always. Tripping and grappling interfere with archers and ray-type spells. Grappling is a big boon to rogues, but not if a concelament miss chance takes away their sneak attack. These maneuvers also put you at risk (countertrip, disarmed, flatfooted vs enemies). Be cautious about using them when you can't be supported. Spellcasters: If you don't do a typical spell for your role (eg, haste, glitterdust, dim door, mass fly arcane casters, insignia of healing, delay death, hero feast, heal, clerics) you need to tell the party ahead of time, so other party members can cover your holes or alternately just plan for the lack. Come up with a brief description for what you normally do in combat. "I'm Olivia, a telekenetic sorceress. I have lots of spells that move things around. If I say "I've got your back" you are safe even if you are at one hp, I will protect you. In a pinch I can do reasonable damage to an enemy but usually save that for ranged threats. Battlefield control is more common. I don't do haste". Blaster casters: Have some spells that do something other than direct damage. You don't need a lot, but you do need some. Warmages - the pyrotechnics (blindness/smoke), stinking cloud, ice storm (half movement), evards tentacles, acid fog....these spells are on your list for a reason. Use them. GENERAL NOTE ON SELF-BUFFS - if you cast a spell in combat that only benefits yourself, it is unlikely you did anything useful to help the party. The only exceptions are reactive self-casting to keep from needing a rescue (or to prevent your own death) and "buff+move into harms way" tactics that either provoke enemies to attack you instead of other people or set up your enhanced full-attack next round. It is very, very rare that more than one round of self-buffing is beneficial to the party, ever. Such situations are usually things like spamming heals on yourself while holding the line, or distracting half the melee threat by bopping around the battlefield while they chase you, while the party eviscerates the other half of the threat. Archers: Let the party know if you're built for close quarters fighting (most aren't after the baby levels) and if you care about cover penalties (many don't, from mid levels onward). If you can shoot into a grapple, let pepople know Let the GM know that you have spot+25 listen +23 so you have fewer arguments about the hide -2 critters appearing next to the party in open terrain. Have all the freaking damage types you have access to. That means silver, cold iron, slashing (serpenttongue) and nonlethal (blunt), as soon as your first AR. If you get adamantine arrow access, buy it, if you find an affordable way to defeat dr/good, buy it. It is worth every penny. Your only purpose is to pump out steady damage, if you can't do it, you might as well go up front and try to draw fire, because you're otherwise useless. Shooting nonlethal arrows into a grapple may save the lives of a party member - either you hit the bad guy helping take him down, or you put a "nonlethal tag" on the party member, meaning he gets knocked out instead of killed by the grapple monster. For archers with bow feats (esp weapon spec/mastery) buy an aquatic longbow. You'll do more damage than with a longspear underwater with it. Druids: Explain whether you are primarily a summoner, an offensive spellcaster or a melee combatant. Druids can usually be good at one of these, but not all and even if you're pretty good at a couple, you usually have a preference. Also, please don't summon or wildshape into anything you don't have statblocks prepared for. I personally cringe every time I see a druid or summoner character reaching for the monster manual. If you are good at more than one role, pick the one that isn't oversubscribed in the party already. "I'm Kivrin, I summon things and cast offensive spells, but usually don't fight in melee unless I'm tapped." (the party has another summoner - so when fighting if the battlefield is already cluttered with critters she uses her zaps instead) Clerics/favored soul: Explain whether you are primarily medic/support, offensive spellcaster or a melee combatant. See "Druid". GENERAL NOTE ON HEALERS If the party doesn't have a cleric or favored soul or mini handbook healer with the right spells, it doesn't have an incombat healer at APL's past 4. A paladin might provide ONE big heal per combat, that's it. Party members need to rescue themselves if they get into trouble, because the big heal won't be coming. Characters with mobility, concealment and battlefield control magic will need to use more of it, characters with high AC need to look for opportunities to draw AOO's and help others escape. A party with a good dedicated healer can be sloppier, if the healer has an action free and is in range to support. GENERAL NOTE ON THE SILENCE SPELL If you are capable of casting this spell from a scroll, you need to pay 150gp and HAVE THE SCROLL. I played at an APL10 table where after a careful ambush we had three grapplers on an enemy sorcerer and he almost got away because the cleric didn't prep silence and didn't have a scroll. Only a dispel magic counterspell from the party wizard, which luckily rolled well, prevented us from having to fight the whole battle over again, and at much worse tactical advantage. Silence is a sure-thing counterspell, and that is as true at level 3 as it is at level 15. It's required equipment for bards, clerics, favored souls and beguilers (although beguilers don't need the scroll, they'll always have the spell). Parties that can't shut down enemy spellcasters reliably suffer. Tank: Have a way of doing damage if your amazing defenses aren't needed. You may not keep up with the damage-focused builds but your damage needs to be relevant. Most fights don't actually require full expertise+defensive, your base AC (even without shield) and hp are probably good enough, but every fight can benefit from a bit more damage output from you. Melee damage dealers: You're not relevant if you're not able to get your attacks in, especially melee damage dealers that need full attacks (monks, twf guys, etc) or special situations (rogues, skirmishers, etc) to really get the impact in. Ask for the support you need to get the blender attacks, be it movement magic to get you next to the enemy (or them next to you), disabling magic (eg, blinded) to prevent them from escaping, set up aoo's and reduce their counterattack. If working with other melees, set up flanks, block traffic lanes so the enemy can't 5' step out of a full attack etc. Have a fly potion after level 8ish in case you need it - you usually won't if your party has any sense of teamwork but sometimes the guy with fly is disabled or needs another action more, and you need to get yourself airborne to contribute.
amnuxoll 07-16-07, 02:02 PM	Most of these have been covered but here's my list: If there are multiple spellcasters of the same 'type' then be sure to compare spell lists. Even spontaneous casters need to do this. I sat at a table two nights ago where I was one of two favored souls. Comparing lists was a great help when we needed to organize our strategy in subsequent battles. Talk tactics ahead of time. Example: Is someone casting haste? Tell the party so they know to delay for it in round 1 of combat if they want it. Don't buff yourself. Buffing the guy next to you is almost always a better move because that player gets to act on it sooner. It's almost like a free Quicken Spell feat. Often times buffing a melee fighter is going to do more damage (albeit indirectly) than your magic missile/orb/fireball/etc. Be aware of charge lanes and respect them. If you can, scribe scrolls. Always have the right spell for the job even if you didn't (or can't) memorize it. Always chip in for Raise Dead. Even if the guy was an idiot. Warn your fellow players well in advance if you plan to use battlefield control. Protect the squishy PCs. It will pay off. Stay aware of flanking. Always try to setup a flank if you can. The role of a healer is to heal. Heal often and early. If you're afraid to risk your neck to keep the BDF on his feet then you're not doing your job. If you and the BDF both have 1 hp left, 95% of the time your best move is to heal the BDF. Buy a wand of CLW (or lesser vigor if you access) regardless of what classes your PC has. Never hesitate to burn charges off of it for the good of any party member. Put emphasis on the 'O' in AO. An attack of opportunity it is a opportunity to screw up the bad guy's tactics. Considering using trip, grapple and disarm when given an AO. Above all: COMMUNICATE. Tell your players what you're doing if it's not obvious. Combat is not a contest to see who can be the most effective PC at the table.
TetsujinOni 07-16-07, 02:49 PM	Most of these have been covered but here's my list: If there are multiple spellcasters of the same 'type' then be sure to compare spell lists. Even spontaneous casters need to do this. I sat at a table two nights ago where I was one of two favored souls. Comparing lists was a great help when we needed to organize our strategy in subsequent battles. Don't forget to do this with spellcasters who are only of the same 'type' by the criteria of 'support'/etc. Bless vs. Inspire Courage is a no-go. Remember that if you're a support caster, swift spells which buff your support actions (Inspirational Boost I'm talkin' to YOU) are pure gold. Talk tactics ahead of time. Example: Is someone casting haste? Tell the party so they know to delay for it in round 1 of combat if they want it. That's not the only, or even most relevant, example. Know what your approximate role in the battle plan is going to be before the first ink goes on the battlemat! Know the type of things you SHOULD expect from your friendlies, and have an appropriate in-character response if they're doing something weird or dangerous. Don't buff yourself. Buffing the guy next to you is almost always a better move because that player gets to act on it sooner. It's almost like a free Quicken Spell feat. I have to disagree here, some self-buffs are the Right Move. Prot/arrows or mirror image is a vital piece of 'keep the caster from falling over' if you might get ambushed. Yeah, yeah, lesser extend mage armor once you're out of major baby levels, got it. Often times buffing a melee fighter is going to do more damage (albeit indirectly) than your magic missile/orb/fireball/etc. Best 1st level wizard offense spell for your spellbook: Enlarge Person. You'll still be happy with it at high APLs, and it can make your BDF break low level combats if you get even one round of precombat buffs. Which reminds me - try to manage at least a round of precombat buffs, even at low level! Be aware of charge lanes and respect them. If you can, scribe scrolls. Always have the right spell for the job even if you didn't (or can't) memorize it. Don't forget that you can scribe a LOT of spells onto one scroll. Always chip in for Raise Dead. Even if the guy was an idiot. Don't do it if it's completely out of character for your PC. Don't NOT do it if THAT is completely out of character either. Establish a clear pattern and follow it though. Warn your fellow players well in advance if you plan to use battlefield control. Protect the squishy PCs. It will pay off. Stay aware of flanking. Always try to setup a flank if you can. The role of a healer is to heal. Heal often and early. If you're afraid to risk your neck to keep the BDF on his feet then you're not doing your job. If you and the BDF both have 1 hp left, 95% of the time your best move is to heal the BDF. The Divine Ward feat is close to pure gold for a healer, and borders on platinum for Radiant Servant builds. Buy a wand of CLW (or lesser vigor if you access) regardless of what classes your PC has. Never hesitate to burn charges off of it for the good of any party member. because 150gp (10 charges), is much less than 833+ gp for a diamond. Put emphasis on the 'O' in AO. An attack of opportunity it is a opportunity to screw up the bad guy's tactics. Considering using trip, grapple and disarm when given an AO. Consider when NOT to do so as well. Battlefield control fighters (or tactical fighters) are an odd breed of frontliner, know when you need to swing, when to flurry and when to tactic-out! Above all: COMMUNICATE. Tell your players what you're doing if it's not obvious. Combat is not a contest to see who can be the most effective PC at the table. True so many places.
solbergb 07-16-07, 02:54 PM	Example of teamwork (using an archer, cause that's been under discussion) from last weekend. Example 1. Melee monster moves in among party squishies, hoping to full attack either the wizard or the archer. Archer action comes up. "I delay until the melees have gone" combined with incharacter "melees - kill that guy!". The reason being that the shmuck moved into full attack range of two melees to get this opportunity. By delaying, I was able to full attack another guy coming up on the melees who cleared away the threat to me (and the mage). Had I taken another action, it would likely have been move+take aoo+shoot, which was worse. (this guy doesn't have close combat shot, and had the wrong spell mix for arrow mind that day). A simple thing, just a delay, but it meant I fired four shots that round instead of one, and dropped an enemy instead of just contributing to melee-overkill on the squishie-threatening enemy. This archer has rouguelike hitpoints and crappy AC and is in fact one of those guys who can't tank unless he's playing down. However he has stuff he can do when he's forced to move instead of shoot, most commonly some trick with benign transposition to get a BDF blocker into position for both protecting squishies and to full attack. When parties lack a BDF or cork and he's a member, he scouts much more aggressively (to reduce chances of surprise/close range encounters) and encourages use of summon and battlefield control spells to slow fights down and keep the enemy at arms reach rather than forcing somebody into a "I just stand in front and block instead of doing what I'm good at" role. (him or anyone else). He has on occasion combined enlarge+fist of stone to contribute to grapple fights, but that's slow so it's usually a better option to fire nonlethal stuff into the grapple.
Sieylianna 07-16-07, 05:05 PM	But, seriously, the gods/nature grant an ever renewable animal companion to aid the druids. And they offer no penalty for multiple animal companion deaths. Why shouldn't you make your uber companion (especially if you took the one level beastmaster dip) the frontliner? Because I have to be within 5' of my animal companion to share spells with him and I don't want to be in the front lines. My advanced tiger has been the main melee type in quite a few modules, but things have to be looking real bad before I send him off into melee without me to back him up with buffs and healing. Ed
solbergb 07-16-07, 09:10 PM	If what you mean by "versatility" is "pay enough attention to the combat that you realize when your usual tactics are a Really Bad Idea, and be willing to react to that", then that's great. I was objecting to the premise that a balanced party is the strongest party, so if you don't have a frontliner, you need to get an archer / cleric / rogue to play meatshield. If your party doesn't have a frontliner, you should have some other strengths, so try to use them. Yeah. I played an entire campaign to level 13 where the highest AC in the party was about 15, and the wizard had more hitpoints than anyone else in the party until level 9, and more than any TWO people in the party around level 4-5. (for some reason everybody dumped constitution). The party was almost entirely melee fighters too. We didn't ever have a full cleric, for example, and my gnome illusionist was the only full caster. That party was fantastic at skirmish tactics. Indeed the highest priority for magic items for the wizard was crafting boots of xp retreat for everybody. That experience is likely why my low AC monk did so well in LG (well, that and 15 years experience playing games like champions where skirmish tactics are the norm because blocking people is nearly impossible) I had a party that just crushed war of the dust - it was two archers (the only one built to "melee" was playing up, and couldn't tank) a summoner druid with a wolf and some kind of gnome cleric of fharlangan which was also fairly at home in sneaky tactics. The average spot check in the party was VERY high and the average hide check was quite good. This 4 person, unbalanced party did very well indeed. What we had was significant ranged attack potential, significant stealth potential. We fought at night,outdoors for the most part, where our low light vision, fantastic spot skills and the gnome's dancing lights gave us a huge advantage in sniping at enemies where the couldn't even pinpoint us. Once we had to go underground, we had a slightly harder time, but then the wolf could cork while the rest of us blazed away. The important thing for most of that mod though was recognizing that we had a party that was actually really good at fighting unseen. We also aggressively scouted, mostly using the wildshaped druid in various forms to know when to stop and come back at night.....and what we'd be fighting. We tossed the idea of an iconic party out of the window and played to our strengths instead. It worked better than the descriptions of most "normal" parties that did the mod when we compared notes later.
control freak 07-16-07, 09:22 PM	thats why wars dont work as well as assasins :rolleyes: kill half the party before they get a round and its over (hence the reason fire ball from 700 feet away by a stealth wiz is just amazeing) a party of level 5 wizards (or lvl6 sorc) can walk alot of mods if they took the time to scout out the paths ahead with invisiblity (we know that this doesnt work always because of some stupid stupid stuff at low APLs)
solbergb 07-16-07, 09:40 PM	Well yeah, but most parties aren't willing to play support to one long range attacker, so you won't see much of that in LG. It's only when the whole party can participate or feel they are "helping" that you really see such tactics work reliably. One BDF charging the fortification can kinda turn it into a "rescue the BDF" fight.
Drezden 07-16-07, 09:54 PM	I had a lot of fun playing my wizard in the mid levels (5-10) with many, many arcane-heavy and archer parties. We almost never had a BDF - we just killed everything at range. My wizard even did a Keoland interactive - the Tomb of Doom - with a Sorceror, arcane trickster and an archer. No problem - although the archer did freak when the party ended up split up (by mod design) in separate Wall of Force cages and he had a Dire Bear in his. But my wizard and the sorceror blinked/ghostformed through the floor and got to him in time. Much fun. lol Arcane-heavy parties can really work well - the ability to open up a fight with 3-4 AOE spells can really shorten such fights. :) That is why mid-level PC parties (APL6-10) really fear the multiple AOE fight. Daren
Hariman 07-16-07, 10:15 PM	GENERAL NOTE ON THE SILENCE SPELL If you are capable of casting this spell from a scroll, you need to pay 150gp and HAVE THE SCROLL. I played at an APL10 table where after a careful ambush we had three grapplers on an enemy sorcerer and he almost got away because the cleric didn't prep silence and didn't have a scroll. Only a dispel magic counterspell from the party wizard, which luckily rolled well, prevented us from having to fight the whole battle over again, and at much worse tactical advantage. Silence is a sure-thing counterspell, and that is as true at level 3 as it is at level 15. It's required equipment for bards, clerics, favored souls and beguilers (although beguilers don't need the scroll, they'll always have the spell). Parties that can't shut down enemy spellcasters reliably suffer. But remember, the casters in the party will HATE you if you don't warn them that you will be silencing areas. Especially if they typically prep sonic descriptor spells. Have a fly potion after level 8ish in case you need it - you usually won't if your party has any sense of teamwork but sometimes the guy with fly is disabled or needs another action more, and you need to get yourself airborne to contribute. NO NO NO! LEVEL 5! Get a fly potion or scroll by level 5! Preferably level 4. APL 6 mods will have a flying enemy in them. (Especially casters.) Heck, in an APL +1 encounter, it's legal in APL 4!
UMiskatonic 07-16-07, 10:15 PM	The important thing for most of that mod though was recognizing that we had a party that was actually really good at fighting unseen. We also aggressively scouted, mostly using the wildshaped druid in various forms to know when to stop and come back at night.....and what we'd be fighting. I think this is a fantastic way to roll. However, I want to make two observations. 1) we had a party that was good... This is key. One sneaky guy isn't nearly as good as an entire party that's sneaky. And it really is all or nothing, because five quiet guys and one loud guy, well, that's still loud. 2) the important thing was recognizing.... Amen brother solbergb. If you can get everyone onboard with a plan, any plan, then you've got it. It doesn't even have to be a good plan, as long as everyone is pulling in the same direction. As a judge, the tables that I clobber are the tables where there are 3-4 plans. The cleric says 'wait, I'm casting a spell'. The barbarian says 'no time, I'm charging in.' The dwarf wants to pick the lock on the door so there's an escape route, and everyone else is scattered all over the map.
UMiskatonic 07-17-07, 10:00 AM	And finally: Double check your character sheet every time you level. It doesn't help anyone if you forget to add your character's extra HP or miss a few skill points. You should be SURE that everything is correct. Making sure can mean the difference between life and death! I'll go one better than this, although it's most important at conventions where time between slots is tight. Level ahead of time. Seriously. You know how many feats/skillpoints/hit points you're going to get. Make those decisions now, especially if you're close to that next level. Then, all you have to do is turn the page from You:level 4 to You:level 5. It amazes me that so many people try to level their character after not sleeping the night before, while they are also simultaneously smoking, eating pizza, and mustering for the next table. I can make a similar point about crafting items, and spending money in general.
solbergb 07-17-07, 10:39 AM	But remember, the casters in the party will HATE you if you don't warn them that you will be silencing areas. Especially if they typically prep sonic descriptor spells. In my experience they'll get over it in exchange for shutting down the enemy caster(s) completely. Especially if you do it as a readied action so they can spellcraft whatever awful thing the caster was about to do to the party. Fly potion before APL8? Not for me. I can't bring myself to spend a consumable that costs more than I earn in a module. At APL4, missile weapons are sufficient to deal with flying threats. By APL8, the difference between your missile weapon and your melee weapon might be worth a 700gp potion.
myshkingfh 07-17-07, 12:03 PM	In regard to silence, I note that it's only a bard or cleric spell - is there a legal spell with similar functionality for wizards/sorcerers?
solbergb 07-17-07, 12:56 PM	Nope. Although beguilers get it too. Silence is one of those amazingly powerful and useful grandfathered spells. You shouldn't expect any new spells to be as good or for it to get added to other spell lists. Most spells of this type have a concentration check mechanic, which is usually weaker than just blasting the guy with a direct damage spell. The counterspell mechanic can work pretty well too, but none of these are "sure things" the way silence tends to be vs normal spellcasters. What the wiz/sor guys get for shutting down spellcasters is the various grapple spells. There are a lot more spells that lack material or somatic components though, than lack verbal components. So the grapple spells by themselves won't shut down casting quite as efficiently. OTOH, silence doesn't do much if you can't also restrict the movement of the caster. That's why combining grapple or trip+silence is so effective.
Mattastrophic 07-17-07, 01:10 PM	Bands of Steel has proven to be quite good at restricting movement. Refusal can also do the job, especially if the guy's under Spell Turning or Freedom of Movement. That reminds me of a question... Since they can be cast "at a moment's thought," are Quickened spells component-free? -Matt
solbergb 07-17-07, 01:34 PM	No, quickened spells have all the same components. They're just faster, and don't draw AOO's. you say a word and twitch your hand, etc....
Hariman 07-17-07, 06:31 PM	In my experience they'll get over it in exchange for shutting down the enemy caster(s) completely. Especially if you do it as a readied action so they can spellcraft whatever awful thing the caster was about to do to the party. Fly potion before APL8? Not for me. I can't bring myself to spend a consumable that costs more than I earn in a module. At APL4, missile weapons are sufficient to deal with flying threats. By APL8, the difference between your missile weapon and your melee weapon might be worth a 700gp potion. Admittedly, a Fly Scroll is a much more economical option. But there ARE APL 6 adventures with flying final enemy casters. Any caster worth his salt should have Glitterdust, Fly and Haste if at all possible. They are just too useful. I won't argue about silence being effective. BUT, shutting down you own caster costs him combat actions. Circumstances must be taken into consideration. And for the love of God, don't give the party caster the silenced item. It's just cruel to make him carry around a token of "can't use your spells". Even if there are more tanks than casters in the party.
Genghis Cohen 07-17-07, 07:13 PM	Any caster worth his salt should have Glitterdust, Fly and Haste if at all possible. They are just too useful.Starting in part 2 of RHoD, my wizard stopped memorizing Haste and started to memorize Slow. I had this luxury because one of the two clerics in our party had the Celerity domain, so he was able to memorize Haste. This pulls us back to teamwork. By being flexible, and allowing another party member to assume an unorthodox role (clerics can't normally memorize haste,) we were able to shuffle party resources around and become better. The party resource in this case were the spellcasters' spell slots. The most effective tables that I've been at are when everyone treats their character's class features as party resources to be shared. It takes more planning, and often results in a mod starting 15 minutes late because everyone is trying to get on the same page. Those 15 minutes at the beginning can speed the mod's combats up though, and might result in ending earlier than what would have otherwise happened.
solbergb 07-17-07, 09:16 PM	And for the love of God, don't give the party caster the silenced item. It's just cruel to make him carry around a token of "can't use your spells". Even if there are more tanks than casters in the party. This I agree with, mostly. Generally the best target for the silence is the light infantry guy who can get at the caster and is also likely to trip/grapple or otherwise keep him in the silence field. Familiars make great targets too. But a support caster, especially healer types or those who have already buffed up the party might be a good choice for the silence item if the idea is to have somebody toss it at the enemy while the rest of the party attacks. You take an early action that is usually marginal (when their main ability is to undo damage/effects caused by enemies) and turn it into an unbeatable counerspell. It also might be a good idea to have the silence item on the high initiative-type. Note though that many uses of silence involve casting it with readied action, so the odds in those situations that it will interfere with a friendly caster are fairly slim. As a rule, opposing casters aren't usually nose-to-nose with no room behind them to move or behind the enemy to push the silence radius back out of friendly range.