Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lupo1977 06-15-07, 08:11 AM	i am pregnant with the idea of playing a summon specialist. :D (pregnant may be an odd word, but in german this is a common phrase "ich gehe schwanger mit dem gedanken..." :D so i would like to play a summoning specialist who can summon really tough and fierce creatures ! my idea so far : druid feats : spell focus conjuration augment summoning and wait for the "animal growth" spell on casterlevel 9 (i need campaign documantation, i know, but itīs not closed) any better ideas ? feats to enhance the summond creature ? (open access would be great :-) good spells ? prestige classes ? or do you think a cleric would do better ? or another class ? i heard of a feat that allows druid to summon elemtals earlier, but restricts them to one element - does anybody know how this feat is called, and where it is from ?
_metz_ 06-15-07, 08:20 AM	i am pregnant with the idea of playing a summon specialist. :D (pregnant may be an odd word, but in german this is a common phrase "ich gehe schwanger mit dem gedanken..." :D so i would like to play a summoning specialist who can summon really tough and fierce creatures ! my idea so far : druid feats : spell focus conjuration augment summoning and wait for the "animal growth" spell on casterlevel 9 (i need campaign documantation, i know, but itīs not closed) any better ideas ? feats to enhance the summond creature ? (open access would be great :-) good spells ? prestige classes ? or do you think a cleric would do better ? or another class ? i heard of a feat that allows druid to summon elemtals earlier, but restricts them to one element - does anybody know how this feat is called, and where it is from ? Druids do make excellent summoners. Alienists are pretty good too, as are some Cleric summoners. Post this on the character help board and people will be glad to give thier opinions. :)
UMiskatonic 06-15-07, 09:02 AM	There are newer feats that allow for quicker summoning spells. Take a look at complete mage and player's handbook II. (The two books I don't have). Clerics make good summoners as well. If you take Good domain, then remember that summoning a good creature is a good spell. Therefore, the critter sticks around for one more round.
kjenks 06-15-07, 10:11 AM	The Bright Sands Fastplay druid can be retrained into an excellent summoner. The Summon Desert Ally spells can summon "dustform" creatures, constructs with +4 Strength, DR 5/magic and other features. This Str bonus stacks with the +4 from the Augment Summoning feat. Would you like your summoned creatures to have +8 Str? You can start a Fastplay character in any of the non-retired Bright Lands mods. The Bright Sands Fastplay characters are here: http://www.wizards.com/rpga/downloads/LGBBS_Fastplay_v2-0.zip Human (Flan) Druid 1: Str 10, Dex 11, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 12. The non-retired Bright Lands mods are: COR6-02 Rallying Point for the Bright Sands COR6-09 Beneath the Bright Sands CORS6-02 Pits of Azak-Zil COR6-13 Tears for the Bright Sands COR6-16 Dominion Over Bright Sands The Blight on Bright Sands Sourcebook v.1.0: http://www.wizards.com/rpga/downloads/LGBBSS_v1-0.zip BTW, the Fastplay druid has too few skill points: Conc 4 ranks+1=5 HA 4 ranks+1=5 Kn (Nature) 2 ranks+1+2=5 Ride 4 ranks Spellcraft 4 ranks+1=5 Survival 2 ranks+3+2=7 Skill points available: (4+1+1)x4 = 24 Total skill points used: 4+4+2+4+4+2 = 20 Unused skill points: 4 (I think they just forgot "Nature Sense (Ex): A druid gains a +2 bonus on Knowledge (nature) and Survival checks.") So when you level up to 2, or if you play your level 1 table with a DM who makes you fix your character to be legal, I guess you get to spend those points however you like. Putting all your points in Spot is obviously the way to go. We recently talked about this here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=738131
Mommy was an Orc 06-15-07, 10:45 AM	Human Wizards have moved up since LGCS 597 - they're the only ones who can afford Spell Focus(Conjuration), Augment Summoning, Rapid Spell, Metamagic School Focus, and CWI by 6th.
Samwise 06-15-07, 12:11 PM	For a summoner, you need the following feats: Spell Focus (conjuration) - required for augment summoning and metamagic school focus) Augment Summoning - makes your creatures significantly tougher Rapid Spell - gets your creatures out the same round you cast the spelll Metamagic School Focus - negates the level bump for the three highest level summoning spells you cast each day For a druid summoner, you also need: Rapid Metamagic - lets you use rapid spell with spontaneous summoning The first choice you need to make is whether you want your creatures strong at first, by taking spell focus (conjuration) and augment summoning at 1st level, or immediately at first, by being a conjuror specialist and taking rapid spell and metamagic school focus. Both have their strong points and both have their weak points, so I'd say it is pretty much a wash which is better. For fast summoners, there is one very relevant side effect that makes up for the weaker creatures at first. Hail of stone is a 1 round spell. It costs bringing some of your buddies to the battle, and costs the equivalent of a scroll per adventure most times, but dropping 1d4/level on 1-4 bad guys with a standard action and no SR or DR is not something to be sneered at. Indeed, if it weren't for the sheer cost in limiting build options, I'd say it verged on abusive. The second choice you need to make is what else you want to do. Whichever of the above you don't choose, the earliest you can get it is 6th level as MWAO noted. That sounds "fast" but isn't, and you are going to miss the feats you don't have until you get them, and of you want any other feats, primarily item creation feats, you are going to have to delay that to at least 9th level, setting yourself up as one of those characters that is APL -2 until 12th level. This is particularly true for a druid where you will face the temptation will be to delay one of those feats for natural spell.
Rerednaw 06-15-07, 07:46 PM	i am pregnant with the idea of playing a summon specialist. :D (pregnant may be an odd word, but in german this is a common phrase "ich gehe schwanger mit dem gedanken..." :D so i would like to play a summoning specialist who can summon really tough and fierce creatures ! my idea so far : druid feats : spell focus conjuration augment summoning and wait for the "animal growth" spell on casterlevel 9 (i need campaign documantation, i know, but itīs not closed) any better ideas ? feats to enhance the summond creature ? (open access would be great :-) good spells ? prestige classes ? or do you think a cleric would do better ? or another class ? i heard of a feat that allows druid to summon elemtals earlier, but restricts them to one element - does anybody know how this feat is called, and where it is from ? I currently play a human wizard summoner/battlefield controller. I like the versatility of the summon monster critter list. Plus I don't run into the alignment issue as often as a cleric would. As pointed out earlier, the wizard bonus feats really helps get your character developed at a level where the other classes are still halfway. The Conjuration school for wizards is very powerful. By comparison, SF: Conj for druids is less effective, as most of their best spells (for battlefield control) are either transmutation or evocation. While I have access to Alienist, I have not taken it. The pseudonatural template is appealing, but you give up all the other outsiders (archons, elementals, mephits, etc.) which hits one of the arcane summoner's greatest strengths: his versatility. It's nice to have the right critter for the job. Other considerations: druid and cleric can suck up far more damage than my arcane squishy, and even as summoners they can fulfill more roles (healer, semi-tank, deal with animals/undead). A cleric with the summoning/good domains can summon celestial templated critters with a 4 round duration at level one. (+2 caster level on conjuration (calling/summoning) and +1 caster level on good spells) My wizard would have given his eyeteeth for that.
haferka 06-15-07, 08:04 PM	I dont think it would ever get approval.. but a SM for access to the new prestige class in Dragon Mag. would be the BEST summoner... They "summon" living spells... :) And they get a living spell as a familiar.. I would so take the spell that throws people into the air & out windows...
haferka 06-15-07, 11:19 PM	The prestige class I was refering to is: Spell Sovereign from Dragon #357 (page 76). Requires: contact with a living spell, Know(arcana)8, Know(Dungeoneering)4, Improved Familiar, 3 Conjuration(summoning) spells (1 must be 3rd lvl). You miss out on casting progress at 1, 5 and 9th levels. Gain Living spell Familiar (1-4th level spells) spontaneous convert spell into living spell (1-5 times per day) functions like summon monstor...(except....) 1 round - 10 minutes duration... 30' - 100' range.. up to +6 Str, +3AC turn/rebuke, imprison, awaken living spells... (all limited times/day)
JohnduBois 06-16-07, 09:22 AM	The prestige class I was refering to is: Spell Sovereign from Dragon #357 (page 76). Requires: contact with a living spell, Know(arcana)8, Know(Dungeoneering)4, Improved Familiar, 3 Conjuration(summoning) spells (1 must be 3rd lvl). You miss out on casting progress at 1, 5 and 9th levels. Gain Living spell Familiar (1-4th level spells) spontaneous convert spell into living spell (1-5 times per day) functions like summon monstor...(except....) 1 round - 10 minutes duration... 30' - 100' range.. up to +6 Str, +3AC turn/rebuke, imprison, awaken living spells... (all limited times/day) Oh man... where was this class a year ago when I needed it for a mod...
gomeztoo 06-18-07, 11:25 AM	I rebuild my druid to use Spell Focus(Conjuration), Rapid Spell and Metamagic School Focus. Tried it yesterday and it worked wonderfully well! Dustform servals are pretty ok :) Now if I ever reach sixth level I may go for Augment Summoning... Gomez
Mommy was an Orc 06-18-07, 11:30 AM	I rebuild my druid to use Spell Focus(Conjuration), Rapid Spell and Metamagic School Focus. Tried it yesterday and it worked wonderfully well! Dustform servals are pretty ok :) Now if I ever reach sixth level I may go for Augment Summoning... Gomez Is that a legal rebuild? I was under the impression that the Druid rebuild wouldn't have allowed you to take Metamagic School Focus...
Timlagor 06-18-07, 11:43 AM	I think he meant "redesign". However there's nothing to stop you using the Rebuild (assuming you have a stuiable character) to make a character designed to have it and then Retraining into it at the next level-up.
LGMoses 06-19-07, 12:34 PM	I wish some of my players would "get pregnant" with some cool ideas :D It seems druids or clerics would be the best summoners but I've never messed with druids or gone that path with clerics so...
LachlarlanIII 06-19-07, 12:36 PM	Druid/Alienist?
Morgen 06-19-07, 12:45 PM	Best summoner? One that uses thier summons tactically and doens't block my poor wizard BAB's ranged touch spells. Your little celestial badger gives the bad guys +8 to thier AC if they are in the way! >.<
Rerednaw 06-19-07, 01:44 PM	Druid/Alienist? No. Alienist works with Summon Monster, not Summon Nature's Ally. Now an Arcane Hierophant, on the other hand...
haferka 06-19-07, 02:16 PM	No. Alienist works with Summon Monster, not Summon Nature's Ally. Now an Arcane Hierophant, on the other hand... No... Specialist Wiz(Conjurer)/Master Specialist/Alienist/Spell Sovereign
Nutation 06-20-07, 02:11 PM	Specialist Wiz(Conjurer)/Master Specialist/Alienist/Spell Sovereign Master Specialist is thankfully Closed.
Thornclaw 07-09-07, 06:34 PM	Is Nar Demonbinder an open class for LG? This is a summoning build I'd like to try and optomize if able. Help me make this LG legal and munchkin/min/max/optomize it for survivability and ability to play in end game/high level content. Cleric5 / Nar Demonbinder2 / Church Inquisitor2 / Mage of the Arcane Order4 / Mystic Theurge5 / Sacred Exorcist / Contemplative1 (Human, DoF, T&B, UE) 01 Clr1 Turn Undead, Cooperative Spell, (+ Extend Spell if human) 02 Clr2 03 Clr3 Iron Will 04 Clr4 05 Clr5 06 Chr1 Spell Focus: Conjuration, detect evil, prestige domain: Inquisition 07 Chr2 Immune to Charms 08 Nar1 fiendish familiar, inimical casting 09 Nar2 Arcane preperation, iron sign 10 Mao1 Guild member, Spellpool I 11 MyT1 12 MyT2 persistent spell 13 MyT3 14 MyT4 15 MyT5 chose feat 16 Mao2 Research Breakthrough 17 Mao3 Bonus Language 18 Mao4 Spellpool II, chose feat 19 Con1 prestige domain of choice 20 Sac1 prestige domain: Exorcism, chosen enemy +1, turn undead -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BAB : +8 Saves : FORT +8 REF +5 WILL +20 Hitpoints : 7d8+2d6+11d4 + CON mod Initiative : DEX mod The domains are required to gain Mage of the Arcane Order at level 9, but if you must you could push it back a level by taking Nar Demonbinder to 2nd level and put a Metamagic feat there to qualify for MotAO. In reality the level of contemplative could be gained in place of the first level of Mystic Theurge. All spellcasting advancement possible should go toward clerical casting. MotAO and Mindbender don't specify what type of spellcasting they advance, so you can choose to advance your clerical levels. MotAO is needed to qualify for Mystic Theurge as the MT requires a certain level of divine and arcane spells while not providing a "or above" phrase like many other prestige classes. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- *IF this just flat out won't work for LG. Please suggest a build as similar to this(or better) for an optomized summoning cleric of Weejas Thanks - Thornclaw
Vanadium 07-09-07, 07:12 PM	Is Nar Demonbinder an open class for LG? This is a summoning build I'd like to try and optomize if able. Help me make this LG legal and munchkin/min/max/optomize it for survivability and ability to play in end game/high level content. Cleric5 / Nar Demonbinder2 / Church Inquisitor2 / Mage of the Arcane Order4 / Mystic Theurge5 / Sacred Exorcist / Contemplative1 (Human, DoF, T&B, UE) 01 Clr1 Turn Undead, Cooperative Spell, (+ Extend Spell if human) 02 Clr2 03 Clr3 Iron Will 04 Clr4 05 Clr5 06 Chr1 Spell Focus: Conjuration, detect evil, prestige domain: Inquisition 07 Chr2 Immune to Charms 08 Nar1 fiendish familiar, inimical casting 09 Nar2 Arcane preperation, iron sign 10 Mao1 Guild member, Spellpool I 11 MyT1 12 MyT2 persistent spell 13 MyT3 14 MyT4 15 MyT5 chose feat 16 Mao2 Research Breakthrough 17 Mao3 Bonus Language 18 Mao4 Spellpool II, chose feat 19 Con1 prestige domain of choice 20 Sac1 prestige domain: Exorcism, chosen enemy +1, turn undead -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BAB : +8 Saves : FORT +8 REF +5 WILL +20 Hitpoints : 7d8+2d6+11d4 + CON mod Initiative : DEX mod The domains are required to gain Mage of the Arcane Order at level 9, but if you must you could push it back a level by taking Nar Demonbinder to 2nd level and put a Metamagic feat there to qualify for MotAO. In reality the level of contemplative could be gained in place of the first level of Mystic Theurge. All spellcasting advancement possible should go toward clerical casting. MotAO and Mindbender don?t specify what type of spellcasting they advance, so you can choose to advance your clerical levels. MotAO is needed to qualify for Mystic Theurge as the MT requires a certain level of divine and arcane spells while not providing a ?or above? phrase like many other prestige classes. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- *IF this just flat out won't work for LG. Please suggest a build as similar to this(or better) for an optomized summoning cleric of Weejas Thanks - Thornclaw A few big problems with this. 1. Nar Demonbinder is not legal. Its not even in the same world (Faerun vs. Greyhawk), so that's a solid no. 2. You are drawing reference from old books, like Defenders of the Faith and Tome and Blood. We use the 3.5 books now, but then again, all of those classes you wanted were updated (although are all limited access). Thus, just forget what you have plotted, as much of it is illegal (the Demonbinder is the heart of the build, and its no-go and the progression goes to 20 as opposed to 15). That said, clerics are odd Summoners to say the least due to the aligned theurgy. It can be done and done very well, but not necessarially with Wee Jas. Look for things like Summoning domain to boost durations (and even something like Good, for the same reason). From what I remember, the Chaotic summons tend to be better than the Lawful ones, though. If you are set on Wee Jas summoning, that's fine, but you have strongly limited options for summoning. If I were to do it, I'd do something like go Neutral Good (good for all legal deities with Summoner Domain: Tritherion, Segojan Earthcaller if gnome, and Ulaa). Just go straight cleric, taking levels in full casting prestige classes if you can find access. Don't spend feats, though, seeing as summoning takes a few feats to do. Even if you are Wee Jas, you can do stuff like School Focus, Augment Summoning, Rapid Spell, and Metamagic School Focus, taking stuff like Create Wondrous Items as well (assuming you are human to get everything relatively quickly).
Genghis Cohen 07-09-07, 07:33 PM	and wait for the "animal growth" spell on casterlevel 9 (i need campaign documantation, i know, but itīs not closed)Animal Growth is in the PHB, so its Open. There is no campaign documentation needed.
Thornclaw 07-10-07, 11:03 PM	*IF this just flat out won't work for LG. Please suggest a build as similar to this(or better) for an optomized summoning cleric of Weejas Thanks - Thornclaw I'm still looking for a LG legal build for this. Please help me out. Thornclaw
Thornclaw 07-11-07, 07:08 PM	*wonders where all the sleeks went* I still need an LG legal Cleric/Summoner build. I know some of you out there are skilled min/maxers who know how to make a cleric summoner powerhouse. Please lend me your knowledge! Thanks- Thornclaw
bitznarf 07-11-07, 07:12 PM	You could try working in Thaumaturgist. With retraining in the campaign, you still take it at first/thrid level, but retrain it to something else when you get it for free from the PrC. Or are you looking at building a dual casting PC?
Vanadium 07-11-07, 08:00 PM	You could try working in Thaumaturgist. With retraining in the campaign, you still take it at first/thrid level, but retrain it to something else when you get it for free from the PrC. Or are you looking at building a dual casting PC? Thaumaturgist is, well, illegal. Hasn't it been that way as long as its existed? The Summon Monster series is weird, though, given that about 10-11 options per summon monster level are be evil. Not to mention that those evil ones tend to be the strongest ones. Thus, you'll probably be forced to enter the Evil spell=evil act quagmire if you want to fully optimize your spells.
bitznarf 07-11-07, 08:15 PM	So it is, how about that. I honestly never thought to look for it in the Closed section of the LGCS.
Donald_Cannith 07-12-07, 01:12 AM	I fell into thsa trap myself, though I dunno why its closed. I have g nome summoning cleric and well life is good. I may take meta magic school focus and summonung feat from PHB2 that allows u to buff as u cast...come to think of it thastd be pretty powerful if i had animal growth...
ultimateconjurer 12-11-07, 02:25 PM	From my experience, summoning doesn't actually NEED the other feats that people tend to get like Extend Spell and Rapid spell. Blasters and other such styled characters do need extra metamagic feats. That being said you could focus more on summoning by getting the feats Imbibed Summoning (best for Druids since they get Greater Magic Fang and Imbibed Summoning only works on touch range spells), Extend Spell and Rapid Spell. However I try to pick Metamagic Feats that I will be able to use on both my Summon Monster Spells as well as my lower leveled spells. Silent and Still spell are examples. If you wanted to be a Summoner/Blaster then you could get Hail of Stone and use Rapid Spell on it, since it too has a full round action casting time. I also get Empower Spell, Maximize Spell, and Twin Spell, all of which I use for SOME type of summoing spell as well as Hail of Stone. With Max or Emp I could get some extra Dire Weasels and Twin I could get some nice pairs of Undead with Summon Undead. That's just me though. Also note that I like the Alienist.
ultimateconjurer 12-11-07, 02:32 PM	I also forgot the Augment Elemental feat from Magic Of Eberron. Any Elemental you summon with it gets a +2 Enhancement bonus on its natural weapons and two extra hit points per hit dice when you summon it. Since it is an enhancement bonus it stacks with Augment Summoning. Of course if a Wizard were to get it and focus on summoning Elementals I always get the feeling that he may as well have been a Druid. Also note that I like to switch out the Scorpions on the summon monster list for Crabs from Stromwrack. The rules on switching monsters is in Stormwrack.
kenobi65 12-11-07, 03:43 PM	I also forgot the Augment Elemental feat from Magic Of Eberron.....Also note that I like to switch out the Scorpions on the summon monster list for Crabs from Stromwrack. Bear in mind that neither of those are legal options in Living Greyhawk without campaign documentation (particuarly unlikely in the case of the Eberron book).
Surgebuster 12-13-07, 12:58 AM	I play a Conjurer/Alienist and there are several things I wanted to mention about what has or hasn't been effective for me. Rapid Spell is, to put it bluntly, essential if you want to be effective as a battlefield controller. There is a major difference between your critters arriving on your turn or waiting a full round before appearing a whole round later. This affects strategic placement in combat but primarily adds a meat buffer between you (and other squishy PCs) and the bad guys. Critters arriving in the first round can also provide flanks for rogues to move into, block charge lines and absorb damage that otherwise would have been inflicted upon a PC. In 3.5, the first round of combat is all about melee types positioning for full attacks - without Rapid Spell you basically miss contributing to the party in this crucial phase. The +1 cost of Rapid spell makes Metamagic School Focus (conjuration) also essential, so that a Summoner's effective spell power doesn't fall behind the curve. This is because... I believe that summoning multiple lower level creatures is a much more effective strategy than one top level creature. A 5th level spell can summon 2-5 celestial bison, or 1 celestial brown bear (for example). I know what I would choose...that's a general observation, there are no doubt specific instances that would prove otherwise. I have found celestial templates pale in comparison to the Alienist's pseudonatural critters. I find that the +20 to hit far outshines the smite ability, especially when the creatures tend not to last many rounds, they can at least be almost guaranteed to do some damage...again, summoning multiple critters helps here too. The only summoner I have found that compares to an Alienist is the Bright Sands variant Druid, due to the desert ally spells....otherwise i wouldn't recommend playing a summoner for anything other than flavour reasons. They just don't hold up in power with blaster types... My two cents Joe
Redfist 12-13-07, 11:23 AM	Three words: Psuedonatural Dire Weasels
Surgebuster 12-14-07, 12:57 AM	Three words: Psuedonatural Dire Weasels Yeah, I wasn't going to mention them for fear of other Summoners in the thread exploding with jealousy. My Conjurer/Alienist at 13th level can summon 3-7 of them every round for the first three rounds of combat. +26 to hit, 4d4 con drain/round (no save) each. Bye bye bad guy after one round. :) Joe
Hariman 12-14-07, 04:39 AM	The only summoner I have found that compares to an Alienist is the Bright Sands variant Druid, due to the desert ally spells....otherwise i wouldn't recommend playing a summoner for anything other than flavour reasons. They just don't hold up in power with blaster types... My two cents Joe That's odd. I'm always happy to see one of the local summoning druids at the table. The summoned critters usually soak up damage and deal some damage, freeing up healing and other resources for later battles. They don't always dish out massive amounts of damage, but having someone else take a series of 20 to 30 damage hits helps. Not to mention that the animal companions are there too. Oh, and the Conjure Ice Beast line of spells is comparable to summon desert ally.
copperwyrmling 12-23-07, 03:04 PM	Yeah, I wasn't going to mention them for fear of other Summoners in the thread exploding with jealousy. My Conjurer/Alienist at 13th level can summon 3-7 of them every round for the first three rounds of combat. +26 to hit, 4d4 con drain/round (no save) each. Bye bye bad guy after one round. :) How does each weasel do 4d4 con drain / round? 1d4, I understand... was this a typo, or am I misunderstanding you?
Surgebuster 12-23-07, 06:06 PM	How does each weasel do 4d4 con drain / round? 1d4, I understand... was this a typo, or am I misunderstanding you? Definitely a typo, my apologies. Although a Rapid Summon Monster V creates 1d4+1 of them (avg 3.5) so it's almost like 4d4 con drain/round! :P A problem used to be that creatures with high DR wouldn't take damage from the weasels (1d6+6 not getting through DR) thus they couldn't attach. I took Beckon the Frozen to help alleviate that. Pseuonatural Bison are my second favourite. Joe
copperwyrmling 12-23-07, 06:25 PM	Definitely a typo, my apologies. Although a Rapid Summon Monster V creates 1d4+1 of them (avg 3.5) so it's almost like 4d4 con drain/round! :P Yeah, I figured you could reasonably get 4d4/round from multiple weasels, it was the "4d4 each" that was perplexing me ;) Fear the weasels!
kjenks 12-23-07, 08:04 PM	I have found celestial templates pale in comparison to the Alienist's pseudonatural critters. I find that the +20 to hit far outshines the smite ability, especially when the creatures tend not to last many rounds, they can at least be almost guaranteed to do some damage...again, summoning multiple critters helps here too. You do know that supernatural abilities take a standard action, don't you? I've often seen alienists playing this wrong. The Complete Arcane version of the pseudonatural template says that its True Strike ability is (Su) (page 161). That +20 is fine if the summoned critters live long enough to use it.
Surgebuster 12-23-07, 08:25 PM	You do know that supernatural abilities take a standard action, don't you? I've often seen alienists playing this wrong. The Complete Arcane version of the pseudonatural template says that its True Strike ability is (Su) (page 161). That +20 is fine if the summoned critters live long enough to use it. I don't have the books with me, but I was sure that it was worded the same way that the smite ability was with the celestial template. To be honest, this has never been an issue at the table. Even with a guy running me through a core special who was determined to stop the game to question every aspect of every player's PrCs... Joe
kjenks 12-25-07, 12:44 AM	http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/celestialCreature.htm === Smite Evil (Su) Once per day a celestial creature can make a normal melee attack to deal extra damage equal to its HD (maximum of +20) against an evil foe. === The normal melee attack is part of the standard action, so a celestial badger (for example) cannot make a Smite Evil as part of a full attack (claw/claw/bite). I've seen many summoners do this wrong, too.
JamesMaissen 12-25-07, 04:09 AM	http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/celestialCreature.htm === Smite Evil (Su) Once per day a celestial creature can make a normal melee attack to deal extra damage equal to its HD (maximum of +20) against an evil foe. === The normal melee attack is part of the standard action, so a celestial badger (for example) cannot make a Smite Evil as part of a full attack (claw/claw/bite). I've seen many summoners do this wrong, too. Wouldn't this apply to Paladins as well? I've seen many a paladin smite evil as part of a charge... From the SRD: Smite Evil (Su): Once per day, a paladin may attempt to smite evil with one normal melee attack. She adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per paladin level. If the paladin accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, the smite has no effect, but the ability is still used up for that day. -James
copperwyrmling 12-25-07, 01:05 PM	Su abilities are a standard action unless noted otherwise. Many people feel that since smite functions as part of a "normal melee attack" (which can be a standard action, or part of a full attack action), that overrides the general rule for this specific Su ability.
kjenks 12-25-07, 01:29 PM	Wouldn't this apply to Paladins as well? I've seen many a paladin smite evil as part of a charge... I've seen it, too. It seems problematic for charging, since charging is a full-round action, but smite-while-charging might be okay for a mounted charge since it's debatable whether the rider or the mount is taking the full-round action to charge. But I don't see that particular ambiguity for the pseudonatural creature template's Su ability. It pretty much duplicates the effects of casting a True Strike spell, not Quicken + True Strike.
kjenks 12-25-07, 01:32 PM	Su abilities are a standard action unless noted otherwise. Many people feel that since smite functions as part of a "normal melee attack" (which can be a standard action, or part of a full attack action), that overrides the general rule for this specific Su ability. So if you're playing at a table where the judge feels that way, you can use your smite without a standard action.
bitznarf 12-25-07, 06:56 PM	So if you're playing at a table where the judge feels that way, you can use your smite without a standard action. Heck Ken, there is even a feat called Charging Smite IIRC. I don't see room for table variation there.
Surgebuster 12-27-07, 02:44 AM	You do know that supernatural abilities take a standard action, don't you? I've often seen alienists playing this wrong. The Complete Arcane version of the pseudonatural template says that its True Strike ability is (Su) (page 161). That +20 is fine if the summoned critters live long enough to use it. The pseudonatural creature's True Strike ability is paraphrased below: True Strike (Su)Once per day, a pseudonatural creature can gain a +20 insight bonus on a single attack roll. In addition, the creature suffers no miss chance against a target that has concealment or total concealment when making this attack. As a supernatural ability, the attack is a standard action. As with the celestial template's Smite ability, it cannot be used as part of a full attack action. Luckily my weasels and bison do not have multiple attacks. ;) Joe
JamesMaissen 12-27-07, 11:17 AM	The pseudonatural creature's True Strike ability is paraphrased below: True Strike (Su)Once per day, a pseudonatural creature can gain a +20 insight bonus on a single attack roll. In addition, the creature suffers no miss chance against a target that has concealment or total concealment when making this attack. As a supernatural ability, the attack is a standard action. As with the celestial template's Smite ability, it cannot be used as part of a full attack action. Luckily my weasels and bison do not have multiple attacks. ;) Joe Still not sure that was ever the intent. It certainly has never been seen in this way in regards to a Paladin's smite evil to my knowledge. -James
JohnduBois 12-27-07, 11:23 AM	I think that the pseudoatural true strike is going to forever be in the domain of ETV, since it's not worded precisely the way of the celestial smite or paladin smite. Many people (myself included) believe that since it replaces the celestial smite, it's similar to the celestial smite. Others believe it to be like the True Strike spell. That said, if anyone tries to ETV my paladin smite and say I can't do it on a charge, I'm probably going to ask for a senior DM's intervention. I took the Charging Smite alternate class feature for a reason, and the feature couldn't exist if you couldn't smite on a charge...
JamesMaissen 12-27-07, 10:29 PM	I think that the pseudoatural true strike is going to forever be in the domain of ETV, since it's not worded precisely the way of the celestial smite or paladin smite. Many people (myself included) believe that since it replaces the celestial smite, it's similar to the celestial smite. Others believe it to be like the True Strike spell. That said, if anyone tries to ETV my paladin smite and say I can't do it on a charge, I'm probably going to ask for a senior DM's intervention. I took the Charging Smite alternate class feature for a reason, and the feature couldn't exist if you couldn't smite on a charge... Personally, based on the wording, I see the two abilities as fundamentally identical in this respect. As a player and a judge the one thing that I believe in is consistent rulings. I don't see how one can claim that one requires a standard action and the other can be applied without one. Personally I think that it is something that one can do *when* making an attack, rather than an ability that when used *makes* an attack. -James
Shieldhart91 12-30-07, 07:24 PM	I don't much feel like looking through the entire topic, but I will say a few things... 1. The druids "Summon Nature Ally" list isn't as populated as the "Summon Monster" list, but it's like that for a reason. For one, never underestimate the power of a Hippogriff. Once you become a 5th-level Druid, you can summon 1d3 of those suckers. These guys fly, and have multiple attacks that do decent damage- invaluable. Druids can also summon vipers, which do the multiple-monster-saving-throw trick that Wizards/Clerics can use with more potency (see below): for Vipers, it's Con damage, which means the big baddie goes down faster. Druids, also, have some access to a few items from the MIC that make them even bigger cheesy summoners. Go Alienist, and you got yourself one potent monster. In the above example, your Pseudonatural Vipers cast True Strike, attack, and force the monster to make several saving throws. He's gonna lose at least -1- point of con, and depending on the Hit Dice, it can make all of the difference in the world. 2. Clerics of Ulaa and a few other deities I think make great starting summoners, but lose their boom without the proper treatment. Complete Divine has several essential feats and information you'll need. My Cleric of Ulaa has the following, or will in another two levels: Domain Focus (Summoner) Domain Spontaneity (Summoner) Spell Focus (Conjuration) Augment Summoning Extend Spell Rapid Spell Domains: Summoner and something else (can't remember) The Summoner Domain = +2 to CL for the Summon Monster spell, or some similar effect. Domain Focus = Gives you a +1 to all spells from your domain, which is probably going to be Summoner. Spell Focus (Conjuration) = Prequisite for Augment Summoning Augment Summon = +4 to Str and Con? HECK YEAH. Extend Spell = Make sure the monsters you want stay on the board for a long time. Can also replace the Summoner Domain and Domain focus if you need it to. So as a 4th-level Cleric of Ulaa, my critters can stay around for up to 14 rounds- not that I would need it or anything. The side effect being that Clerics get the shaft on a lot of things here: there are virtually no items that can augment a cleric's summoning abilities that I've seen, as most of them are geared towards Druids. Clerics can't become Thaumaturgist's, because that P. Class is closed. It allows a certain amount of versatility that druids don't have, however: supplementary healing is damn near invaluable, especially when there's clerics of no other sorts. Your ability to summon things, cast Bless/Prayer/Recitation again, works wonders. 3. Wizards and Sorcerers: definitely not my first pick for a summoner, although Wizards have more access to meta-magic feats and Sorcerers have access to more summoning spells per day. Trick yourself out with metamagic feats, and explore the world of summoning. Very similar to Cleric business, just without the Domain feats.
kjenks 12-30-07, 11:34 PM	Augment Summoning has another nice effect with those vipers. The poison save DC is Constitution-based, so +2 Con gives +1 on the save DC.
bitznarf 12-31-07, 03:36 AM	Domain Focus (Summoner) Domain Spontaneity (Summoner) Spell Focus (Conjuration) Augment Summoning Extend Spell Rapid Spell Domains: Summoner and something else (can't remember) The Summoner Domain = +2 to CL for the Summon Monster spell, or some similar effect. Domain Focus = Gives you a +1 to all spells from your domain, which is probably going to be Summoner. Note that out of the baby levels, bumps to CL are not particularly useful as you note: 14 rounds doesn't happen often. It would help vs. dispelling though.