Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Viet_too 04-21-06, 08:16 AM	This would be my first attempt at planning a character for LG. (I started at chaoticon with a Dwarf Cleric on a lark) I will be playing primarily in Highfolk and was kind of trying for the elven eq. of a arcane paladin... Grey Elf Str 8 Int 17 Wis 14 Dex 16 Con 12 Chr 8 1st - Cleric Correllon (war/celerity) 2nd - Wiz (conjurerer) 3rd - Wiz 4th - Cleric 5th - Wiz 6th - ftr 7th - Wiz 8th - (ftr or cleric??) 9th - Bladesinger Feats: 1st dodge 3rd practiced caster 6th combat casting Ftr combat expertise 9th practiced caster Or would it just be better to do the standard 3lvls fighter 4 lvls wizard? :confused: I guess if there are any other builds to get to bladesinger between 8-11th levels I would be interested in that. I had momentarily toyed with cleric 3,wiz 3, mt4, bs1 Thanks
Iswald 04-21-06, 09:56 AM	I don't think it'd be a good idea to take practiced caster for both cleric and wizard levels. Cleric is an interesting idea to combine with the build. Swashbuckler may work out better. Take three levels for weapon finesse and the int bonus to damage. Some combinations to enter Bladesinger: cleric 1/fighter 2/swashbuckler 1/wizard 4 cleric 1/fighter 2/swashbuckler 3/wizard 1 - xp penalty fighter 2/swashbuckler 1/wizard 4 fighter 2/swashbuckler 3/wizard 1 fighter 1/swashbuckler 3/wizard 2 cleric 1/fighter 2/wizard 6 cleric 6/wizard 2 - 3rd level cleric spells cleric 7/wizard 1 - 4th level cleric spells (divine power) The number of levels of non-wizard classes depends on how much you want to focus on spellcasting vs melee. Also, more levels in melee classes means faster entry to Bladesinger and less of a hit to BAB (no pun intended). Taking levels of MT is probably not a good plan because of the poor BAB. One problem with taking a lot of cleric levels is that you might end up playing a healer or be unable to have time to buff yourself for melee. Your divine powers would also overshadow your arcane abilities which you wanted to emphasis.
redgamer 04-21-06, 09:58 AM	Are you asking if this is a strong build? The answer is no. Its been debated if a well built blade singer is a strong build. Your current build has +3 to hit in melee at level 9. This tells me you don't want to be in melee ever. What do you want to do in comat? You have a lot of bad spells at level 9 so that can't be the be all and end of of you contribution. Barring a strong reason to think this build will be more fun to play than something else I would suggest against it.
redgamer 04-21-06, 10:02 AM	Taking levels of MT is probably not a good plan because of the poor BAB. MT= Mystic Thuerge, Master Thrower, Master Transmogrofer or something else?
Iswald 04-21-06, 10:19 AM	MT= Mystic Thuerge, Master Thrower, Master Transmogrofer or something else? "I had momentarily toyed with cleric 3,wiz 3, mt4, bs1" You're free to make a good guess. ;)
Viet_too 04-21-06, 10:37 AM	I don't think it'd be a good idea to take practiced caster for both cleric and wizard levels. Cleric is an interesting idea to combine with the build. Swashbuckler may work out better. Take three levels for weapon finesse and the int bonus to damage. Some combinations to enter Bladesinger: cleric 1/fighter 2/swashbuckler 1/wizard 4 cleric 1/fighter 2/swashbuckler 3/wizard 1 - xp penalty fighter 2/swashbuckler 1/wizard 4 fighter 2/swashbuckler 3/wizard 1 fighter 1/swashbuckler 3/wizard 2 cleric 1/fighter 2/wizard 6 cleric 6/wizard 2 - 3rd level cleric spells cleric 7/wizard 1 - 4th level cleric spells (divine power) The number of levels of non-wizard classes depends on how much you want to focus on spellcasting vs melee. Also, more levels in melee classes means faster entry to Bladesinger and less of a hit to BAB (no pun intended). Taking levels of MT is probably not a good plan because of the poor BAB. One problem with taking a lot of cleric levels is that you might end up playing a healer or be unable to have time to buff yourself for melee. Your divine powers would also overshadow your arcane abilities which you wanted to emphasis. I think that Swashbuckler might make an ok rep for the fighter lvls. I geuss maybe I'm looking for an arcane primary with the elven swordsman secondary. What about, Clr 1 Swash 3 Wiz 3. Maybe I'm trying to hard to combine the clr with the bladesinger option. The only thing I loose for replacing ftr with clr is BAB and I would gain some limited healing/buff options. The idea was to avoid a straight fighter. I would like to be throwing ok spells at that lvl. How about Swash3 Wiz 4 That puts me at bladesinger 8th, int bonus for damage, and ok spells. only thing it costs me is religion. Actually the last would need a lvl of fighter for the extra feat wouldn't it...... so add ftr 1 drop wiz 3 or bladesinger at 9th? Take the lvl in fighter last so as to gain xp penalty and get to play longer?
Mommy was an Orc 04-21-06, 11:31 AM	What about, Clr 1 Swash 3 Wiz 3. Maybe I'm trying to hard to combine the clr with the bladesinger option. The only thing I loose for replacing ftr with clr is BAB and I would gain some limited healing/buff options. The idea was to avoid a straight fighter. I would like to be throwing ok spells at that lvl. I think you're trying to get too complicated with your character. I'd really look at Bard as an option - Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 2/Bard 2/Bladesinger 7/Spellsword 1 would give you some limited buff/healing options, you'd be nearly fullBAB, and there are some great 1st level melee spells for Bard in Spell Compendium - Critical Strike, Improvisation, and Inspirational Boost. Wizard can work here too, and that eliminates the need for the arcane prep feat, but the other advantage of Bard is that there's no penalty for casting spells in light armor. Fighter 2 gets you your needed feats. Stats might be along the lines of Grey Elf Str 12, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 8, Cha 12. Build might be along the lines of: 1: Swashbuckler: Weapon Finesse, Combat Expertise 2: Bard 1 3: Bard 2: Arcane Preparation(CA) 4: Swashbuckler 2: Dex 17 5: Swashbuckler 3 6: Fighter 1: Combat Casting, Weapon Focus(Longsword) 7: Fighter 2: Dodge 8: Bladesinger 1: 9: Spellsword 1(to get you to 2nd level Bard spells with a +2 Cloak) 10-15: Bladesinger 2-7 The Arcane Prep is so that you can memorize the spell instead of spontaneously casting it - then you pick up Pearls of Power 1st level to cast Critical Strike multiple times per day.
redgamer 04-21-06, 12:16 PM	"I had momentarily toyed with cleric 3,wiz 3, mt4, bs1" You're free to make a good guess. ;) Yeah I missed that line, but there are really too many MT prestige classes.
clik_ml 04-21-06, 06:20 PM	Orc, you're passing up a chance at the ever-sweet exp penalty! 1 Swash/2 Ftr/4 Bard/X Bladesinger(with 1 Spellsword) You get level 2 bard spells faster (and those are the real nifty combat buffs), and as an added bonus you don't waste your time with levels 2 and 3 of swashbuckler. Then again, bard bladesingers suffer from more MAD than just about anyone else as they need *everything* but wisdom to make best use of their class features. In a 28pt buy you really can't do it all. 12's in Str, Con and Cha are unacceptable in my bigoted eyes. So here's how I'd try to handle a Bard Bladesinger Half elf (yes, sadly you lose out on the exp penalty this way) 4 Bard/2 Fighter/X Bladesinger 14 14 13 (+1 level 8) 14 8 13 (+1 level 4) Feats 1)Dodge 3)*whatever feat you want* 6)Combat Casting F1)Combat Expertise F2)W Focus A couple tweaking options are to replace a fighter level with a barbarian level or to replace a fighter level with 2 paladin levels for super saves. It's all pretty moot though. I'm not sure what the goal of the bladesinger is supposed to be, but I reckon it fails to fufill whatever design concept it was hoping for. For a sword using arcane caster, I'd be sorely tempted just to be a single-classed wood elf sorceror who takes plenty of the improved toughness feat, and uses critical strike often. True Strike and Critical Strike don't have somatic components so you could even pick up go around wearing a masterwork chain shirt for a while until something better comes along (-1 to attack and ride checks in exchange for +4 AC beats the snot out of fighting defensively or expertise)... if you happily find access to thistledown padded armor (races of the wild) and a mithral buckler then you're really good to go. One example: Wood Elf X Sorc 16 16 13 (+1 level 8) 6 8 15 (+1 level 4) Feats 1) Still Spell (for higher levels if you wanna wear bigger armor and use bigger spells that have somatic components) 3) Power Attack 6-15) Improved Toughness There's all sorts of builds available. A wizard can do about the same as the sorcerer above (obviously with different race/stat allocation), taking Arcane Disciple and having a 14 wisdom in order to gain access to Divine Power.
PaulH 04-22-06, 07:52 AM	Hi What about using Bard in the build? This one has XP penalty, though. Gery Elf: St 10; De 16; Co 10; In 16; Wi 8; Ch 14 1: Swashbuckler, Wpn Finesse; Wpn Focus Rapier 2: Swashbuckler, Grace +1 3: Bard, Dodge 4: Bard, 5: Fighter, Combat Expertise 6: Swashbuckler, Insightful Strike; Combat Casting 7: Bladesinger, Bladesong Style Etc. Swashbuckler allows you to add Int bonus to damage with any weapon you can use with Wpn Finesse. Your BAB is 6/1, (+10/6 nett) and can cast spells in light armour. (Med Armour with Battle Caster). I prefer Dervish, though as a PrC. Amend the stats to suit, but: 1: Swashbuckler, Wpn Finesse; Dodge 2: Swashbuckler, Grace +1 3: Swashbuckler, Insightful Strike, Mobility 4: Bard 5: Bard 6: Fighter, Wpn Focus Scimitar; Combat Expertise 7: Fighter, 2 Wpn Fighting 8: Dervish, Dance 1/day, Movement Mastery, Slashing Blade Your BAB is 7/2, (+9/4 2 wpn style) Gains +1 Hit/Damage whilst dancing. Can use Scimitars as light weapons. Crit Strike means Scimitars crit 15+ Double Dam + sneak. Can even use Bards Song when dancing. :P :P :P Cheers Paul H
clik_ml 04-23-06, 02:06 AM	Grey Elf: St 10; De 16; Co 10; In 16; Wi 8; Ch 14 Etc. Forgive my insolence, but a melee character with 10 strength and 10 con and no sneak attack seems about the most awful build I've seen to date for LG (moreso than the bard/sorc and bard/wizard, and even the monks I've seen played). At level 4 you are doing 1d8+2 damage, and that is only if you start an encounter with inspiration boost + bardic music, and you only get to do that once a day (the second one will have to be +1 only, and the third you are out of luck entirely). By level 6 you hit your sweet spot and add a whopping 3 damage to that sword from insightful strike. 1d6 of sneak attack, essentially. So you are now doing 1d8+5 damage- which is about as much as a mediocre melee fighter is doing at level 1 (a specialized fighter will be doing much more than that of course). A level 1 character will outshine your level 6 character. That is problematic. With 36 hit points at level 6, you won't last 3 rounds in any melee. Ever. Heck, my wife's wizard will have more hit points than that by level 6, and her job isn't to be put on the front lines. If that swashbuckler isn't meant for the front lines, then pretty much all the class abilities have gone to waste. I would be impressed if that build ever made it to bladesinger. Something to consider for all melee builds is "How well do I deal damage?" and "How well do I take damage?". There are of course other aspects and tactics like tripping, grapplers, disarmers, and so forth, but if you can't handle the basics, then the specialties are going to fall by the wayside. I will grant that a bladesinger, especially a bardic one, is extremely hard to pull off since you want at least 5 stats at 14- preferably higher. If you neglect the fundamentals however, you are going to have a not very fun character who can only survive mods if you play way down- because you can't accomplish the major combat role in the party that is assigned to you: taking attacks and dealing damage. =-=-=-=-=- For Viet's initial build of the cleric/wizard/fighter, you are going to run into MAD that is at least as harsh as the Bard, since you need a little bit of wisdom instead of charisma. The strength of 8 and constitution of 12 aren't any better than the 10/10 I reckon. You won't be dealing any significant damage, and with those low hit die classes, you won't be able to handle taking any hits either. Viet_too, since you want to be primarily arcane, I'd suggest ditching bladesinger entirely. The class mostly does its best when taken by a fighter with nominal amount of casting. That way you can keep your attack damage relevant, and you have more HD and less dependency on multiple abilities (meaning you can actually put decent stats in Str and Con!). The casting for a bladesinger should be more of an after thought. A few buffs and some utility, nothing offensive certainly. For a primary arcane caster who can whip out his sword on occasion, there is the primary caster option I mentioned earlier (which does require some experience to pull off and you are mainly a caster for low levels since color spray rocks low APLs)... and there is also a kissing cousin option of 1 melee class/6 caster class/X eldritch knight You should be able to afford a decent Con and Str still, and that will make up for the loss of 3 BAB to the caster class and the lower HD there too. Whether you want to fiddle around and get 1 level of Spellsword in order to wear a mithral chain shirt with no spell failure is up to you. Example of an arcane "paladin" of Corellon Larethian: 1 Swashbuckler/6 Wizard/X Eldritch Knight Elf 14, 16, 14, 14, 8, 8 Feats: 1)Power Attack (for use with true strike, crit strike, or whatever... most useful melee feat evar) 3)Improved Toughness 6-15)Whatever Practiced Spellcaster probably wouldn't hurt, but you are only 2 caster levels behind so it isn't mandatory. You will also make a passable archer for fights when it just isn't prudent to wade into melee. As an aside, the option of whether to take 5 or 6 wizard is mostly the choice of trading 1 HP (lower HD of wizard) for +1 to all saves (level 6 is a good level for saves). I value +1 to all saves greater than +1 HP. As a base line comparison to other builds, by level 6 you will have level 3 wizard spells(!), +3 BAB (sad, but nobody's perfect), 2d6+3 damage with a greatsword (but a fair bit more whenever you cast critical strike/bull's strength, etc.). Your HP will be 43 +1d10+5 temporary HP from false life. You will make an acceptable arcane caster if the party needs you to wear that hat, and you make a heckuva lot better melee character than pretty much any bladesinger out there who knows third level spells. The best part is that the build is viable throughout its whole lifespan, and you are doing your arcane holy warrior concept from level 2 on til 15. Apologies for the over-long post. I probably should have broken it into 2. One to debunk bad bad bad build theory of a melee character who can neither deal damage nor survive damage, and another to offer a more ideal theory behind an arcane meleeist. Oh well. A bard/eldritch knight/sublime chord wouldn't be terribly shabby either- it just requires very different tactics and play style. [edit: Removed references/suggestions of taking Improved Toughness over and over, as this is most likely not legal.]
PaulH 04-23-06, 08:31 AM	Hi First off, I totally agree that Arcane melee builds aren't as strong as pure fighters/barbarians. Which is why I suggested the Dervish idea. You can drop the Cha to 12 & increase Con to 12. Giving him more survivability. (Your wife has a 16 con wizard)? Also, in Dervish build, the +3 Insightful Strike is about 3rd lvl, not 6th. This is without any boosts. +7 to hit, D6+3 Dam (crit 18+ x2 dam) isn't too shabby for light infantry. Especially at 3rd Level! The questions about damage should read "How", & "How often" doe I deal damage, not necessarily "How much". This is Light Infantry, not a Tank, after all. As to survivability - if you're not hit, HP are problematic. Dervish is all about tumbling, no AoO, etc. Also the Dervish build base saves at 6th lvl are 4/5/4, not 5/2/2 of pure fighter. So better chance surviving fireballs, etc. If you want spellcasting melee, go Barbarian/Druid/Master Many Forms, with maybe lvl of Warshaper to negate crits/sneak. At 8th you're a spellcasting (up to 3rd lvl) Dire Ape, wielding that 2H Sword, who can beserk once/day. (3 times with extra rage). better still be Human,and rearrange stats to suit. (Physicals change anyway in Wildshape). Cheers Paul H BTW My main is Dwarf Clr 3 (Magic/Trickery)/Warmage 4. Have Practiced Spellcaster Warmage. Not so good BAB as light infantry, but better utility, damage, HP, etc.
clik_ml 04-23-06, 09:24 AM	I have no particular beef with the Dervish build though I think it would probably be better served by scout levels. I was commenting on the bladesinger stuff only. :-) Heh, my wife has an 18 con wizard actually. Gnomes, gotta love em. A 16 con gnome is standard (i.e. if a gnome/dwarf wizard has less, you are doing something wrong), she just put a lil more into it. I don't really buy into light infantry as a special distinction. If anything it is a more mobile and slightly less damaging/hardy tank, sure- but it is still mandatory that it can take and deal damage, since that is its major task.
PaulH 04-23-06, 07:14 PM	Hi Ah, yes. Those delightful, underestimated little critters. If Warmage was available when I started LG I would have gone Gnome Bard/Warmage (Onwards). Never underestimate "Speak with burrowing animals". Want some info in a dungeon? Hang on a sec - I'll just go ask the rat over there! Or.. "And just why are you all leaving this boat....."? And as for their other abilities....... (Ghost Sound, etc). :P Hmm. Bard, then Warmage. Arcane Disciple 3rd lvl, for either Celerity or Travel Domain spells. Got to go work this one out...... Cheers Paul H