Post/Author/DateTime	Post
mlund 05-09-06, 01:05 AM	To make it short, will Improved Buckler Defense give any benefit to an archer shooting with his bow? As written, the blurb definitely lets you get the bonus with off-hand attacks, but it doesn't clearly address 2-handed weapons. Oh, and is the bow or crossbow treated any differently than the 2-handed melee weapon in terms of interaction with a buckler beyond simply not getting the -1 to hit penalty like a melee attack does? Thanks for your time. - Marty Lund
solbergb 05-09-06, 03:54 PM	To make the answer brief, "it depends on the judge". The feat doesn't say. There is nothing that unambiguously says one way or another. I've found that *most* judges and folks that argue about rules seem to think the feat works with bows/xbows, but there will be some tables where it doesn't work unless a FAQ entry or something comes out to clarify the feat's intent. It's not a bad feat for variation, as such feats go. But the variation isn't zero. With respect to the second question, bows and crossbows are neither light, one handed or two handed weapons. They're projectile weapons, which aren't any of the above (this causes real problems in interpreting ranged disarm, and some other feats). Because of this, there are some folks who think that you get the buckler with bow/xbow even if you fire the bow, because it doesn't count as "using that hand" for a weapon or some such. This is not a popular view, it may even be explicitly discounted in the FAQ, but I'm not sure. I haven't run into it in actual play ever...if you fire the bow and don't have the feat, you don't get the bucker defense, period. If you have the feat...you may get the buckler defense if the judge thinks you should. What is certain is bucklers don't interfere with bow and crossbow attack rolls and do interfere with any other attack roll using that hand (onehanded or twohanded)...and improved buckler defense does nothing to mitigate that.
spellbow 05-09-06, 05:30 PM	here is the Description of the buckler This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a -1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don’t get the buckler’s AC bonus for the rest of the round. you do not get the -1 penalty when wielding a bow or crossbow
mlund 05-09-06, 07:27 PM	Sigh. Thanks for the help, folks. I was really hoping that there was some sort of official take on Bows and Bucklers. The fact that no one has even made an official call on the basic issue of "If I fire a bow, do I still get my Shield Bonus to AC from my Buckler?" is just depressing. We're talking a feat that might work, not work, or be completely redundant. Its been in print for a significant amount of time, and the PHB has been around for quite a while too. You can't just go wasting a feat selection in Living Greyhawk on a "maybe," or "some judges might let you." Poor product support. How lame. - Marty Lund
Dasher2k 05-09-06, 11:38 PM	Why don't you just quit whining and send the question to wotc?
clik_ml 05-10-06, 08:03 AM	Why don't you just quit whining and send the question to wotc? It won't really help. Answers from customer service are worth precisely scrap in this context (among many others too, I suppose). Better might be to see if your triad (or yourself) will pass it on up to the circle or somesuch, and hopefully they might slip it into a dispel confusion. Probably not that pressing a matter though. - Erik ML
mlund 05-10-06, 12:11 PM	It won't really help. Answers from customer service are worth precisely scrap in this context (among many others too, I suppose). Better might be to see if your triad (or yourself) will pass it on up to the circle or somesuch, and hopefully they might slip it into a dispel confusion. Probably not that pressing a matter though. - Erik ML Exactly. Unless it winds up in an official publication, it means jack for Living Greyhawk. The Triad and Circle don't answer rules ambiguity questions officially for Living Greyhawk either, if what I read in the Forums from their members is correct. So you've got to get a FAQ or Dispell Confusion or the like. I don't know if Living Greyhawk / the RPGA has an official stance on "Ask Wizards" micro-articles that are on www.wizards.com now, but I sent it in a while ago anyway, hoping it might make its way into something official, someday. Like I said, the product support of even the Core Books for the needs of RPGA events (where you shift from DM to DM on a regular basis with the same character) is extremely poor. - Marty Lund
solbergb 05-10-06, 01:51 PM	We're talking a feat that might work, not work, or be completely redundant. Its been in print for a significant amount of time, and the PHB has been around for quite a while too. You can't just go wasting a feat selection in Living Greyhawk on a "maybe," or "some judges might let you." - Marty Lund Sure you can, as long as the feat is otherwise useful, and when it works in an expanded way, this is a bonus. If you are normally a greatsword swinger or a TWF fighter and only resort to bows when you have to, the feat works most of the time, and when you're taken out of your game it will still work at most tables. If you are primarily an archer, the feat isn't as strong in LG because it is far less likely it will work and/or be needed. Many feats depend heavily on your character for utility (improved trip is pretty much useless on a 6 strength haflling), it's just that in LG table variation/grey rules are something that has to be weighed. How often will the variation come up? Will the variation seriously impact my ability to contribute when it comes up? If the answer is "low" and "not much" then the variation doesn't matter. If the answer is "often" and "a lot" then forget the feat (Earth's Embrace, for example is so poorly worded you can get 6 opinions of what it intends by talking to 6 people...it is a terrible LG feat, whereas in a home game the DM can just declare what it does, and you can then decide if you want it). In the intermediate cases you weigh how useful it is when it works vs the chance it won't work, similar to the decision to take a save or die spell as a spell known, or to base most of your offense on sneak attack. This dimension gets a lot of bytes of discusson on lgchardiscussion, because it's something to think about when building a LG character (and isn't even on the radar for building a normal campaign character)
RLWilde 05-11-06, 10:49 PM	Unless it winds up in an official publication, it means jack for Living Greyhawk. Not quite. A Circle or Triad member's opinion might sway some judges into ruling one way or the other on issues that may vary per table.
redgamer 05-12-06, 12:07 PM	How often will the variation come up? Will the variation seriously impact my ability to contribute when it comes up? ... This dimension gets a lot of bytes of discusson on lgchardiscussion, because it's something to think about when building a LG character (and isn't even on the radar for building a normal campaign character) Rules variation comes up all the time in other forums. Most of the threads in the D&D boards turn into rules debates within a handful of post. Even character optimization post often have things like "If your DM allows it..." "Sorry my DM says I can't use that..." "Tell your DM this works this way..." "Well I intrepreted the rule this way.." "I always house rule that..." The difference is when you have only one judge like in most homegames whenever you tire of argueing the rules you can simply find and use the judges descision.
solbergb 05-15-06, 04:57 PM	The difference in LG is that you can't ever convince "the DM". You might convince one judge at one table, but you have to do it all over again with the next judge. Thus a lot of the effort you might go into making an argument one way or another are wasted in LG, at least at the table. When we talk about table variation, we're talking about what you'll encounter without breathing a word of rules argument, and also what choices are more likely to spark an argument. Arguments are boring, even if you are right. Playtime is limited. Choosing your battles is important. In the case of improved buckler defense, if you quietly never apply it with a projectile weapon, you'll never have an argument. If you apply it with a projectile weapon, at some tables the judge will say "it doens't work". The correct response in LG is to not argue, but just take the bonus off, because the wording is in fact ambiguous and thus 100% up to the judge. If the judge says "I dunno what the rule is" then usually what happens is you assert what the rule is and he'll check reactions of other folks at the table. If it seems generally favorable, he'll go with it, most of the time. The conflict is more likely to come up if you are primarily an archer. Thus it becomes a build question - whether the extra AC you get is worth the feat when at some tables the feat won't work unless you're in mleee. This kind of tradeoff doesn't happen in a home game. The DM says "ok" and you take the feat and it always works, or he says "nope" and you choose some other feat. THAT is why build advice given elsewhere is missing an important dimension. The CO board has been slowly educated on this, they're getting better about recognizing ambiguity with respect to LG builds, but it isn't a high priority in the mind of most builds offered there.