Bright Lands Ranger [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bright Lands Ranger [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Oaklock
07-15-06, 08:39 PM I am working on developing a Bright Lands Ranger and have a few questions.

1) Can you have the fast play Bright Lands Ranger if you do not own the Sandstorm supplement?

2) Can adjust the Ability points and still use the fast play model? Like increasing the strength from 13 to 14, and reducing wisdom by 1?

3) I noticed that, assuming that the Speak Languages skill costs 2 skill points, that this fast play character has 33 skill points. It would have 30 skill points if the Speak Languages skills each cost one point. The normal human Ranger of Intelligence 10 will have 28 skill points.
How come?

Thanks,
kjenks
07-15-06, 09:22 PM I am working on developing a Bright Lands Ranger and have a few questions.

1) Can you have the fast play Bright Lands Ranger if you do not own the Sandstorm supplement?

Yes. There's no rule in the Blight on Bright Sands Sourcebook (BoBS) saying that you must own Sandstorm. (But, hey, don't be a cheapskate. Buy the book.)

2) Can adjust the Ability points and still use the fast play model? Like increasing the strength from 13 to 14, and reducing wisdom by 1?

No, you've gotta play 'em as you get 'em. They're all sub-optimal characters, but that seems to be by design, not by accident.

3) I noticed that, assuming that the Speak Languages skill costs 2 skill points, that this fast play character has 33 skill points. It would have 30 skill points if the Speak Languages skills each cost one point. The normal human Ranger of Intelligence 10 will have 28 skill points.
How come?

Speak Language costs two skill points for a ranger.

But I believe there was a change in the BoBS Fastplay characters. You might have the old version. I just downloaded the latest from http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=lg/welcome

The ranger has:
Str 13, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 10.

2 pts: Climb +3
4 pts: Handle Animal +4
4 pts: Knowledge (nature) +4
1 pts: Hide +3
2 pts: Listen +4
1 pts: Move Silently +3
4 pts: Ride +6
2 pts: Speak Language (Ancient Flan)
0 pts: Speak Language (Common)
2 pts: Speak Language (Goblin)
3 pts: Spot +5
3 pts: Survival +5
===
28 pts

Looks okay to me.

BTW, "Ancient Flan" is the same as Flan, by the latest LGCS.
Arvagor
07-15-06, 09:24 PM 1) Can you have the fast play Bright Lands Ranger if you do not own the Sandstorm supplement?Theoretically, yes, as I don't see anything in the build that makes use of Sandstorm material.

2) Can adjust the Ability points and still use the fast play model? Like increasing the strength from 13 to 14, and reducing wisdom by 1?

3) I noticed that, assuming that the Speak Languages skill costs 2 skill points, that this fast play character has 33 skill points. It would have 30 skill points if the Speak Languages skills each cost one point. The normal human Ranger of Intelligence 10 will have 28 skill points.
How come?IIRC, the Circle has said that you cannot make any adjustments to the characters' stats, feats, skills, etc. barring major mistakes. That being said, the only thing IMO you can adjust is the fact that, yes, the skill points were overspent, although your math is not entirely correct. As I count it, if you disregard the extra three languages, the PC has spent only 25 of his 28 skill points -- were you taking stat bumps into account for each skill? I see the following points spent:

- Knowledge (Nature) - 4
- Hide - 1
- Move Silently - 1
- Climb - 2
- Spot - 2
- Listen - 3
- Handle Animal - 4
- Ride - 4
- Survival - 4

Given that, whoever built him probably thought Speak Languages cost 1 point per language, and gave him Common, Goblin, and Ancient Flan for 1 point apiece.

I would say a permissible change is that he still takes Common as a language (2 points), leaving you 1 point to spend as you please.
Arvagor
07-15-06, 09:30 PM 2 pts: Listen +4
...
0 pts: Speak Language (Common)The build spent 3 points on Listen and Speak Language(Common) will cost him 2 points as well (the Suel nomads do not speak Common automatically)
kjenks
07-15-06, 11:29 PM I think I see part of the problem. When I first looked at the BoBS fastplay characters, I had trouble seeing the difference between a 3 and a 5 in the goofy font they use. For example, I thought it said Wis 15 instead of Wis 13. When I copy/paste the stats into a more readable font, it's easy to see what the stats really are.

Maybe another part of the problem is the goofy language rules. The Fastplay ranger's stat block says he speaks Ancient Suel and Common.

The BoBS says:
===
Special Rules: Suel nomads are humans as
presented in the Player’s Handbook, but have an
automatic language of Ancient Suloise. They must take
Common as either a bonus language, or gain it with the
Speak Language skill.
===

Yet another piece of the puzzle: His studded leather armor has an armor check penalty of -1 which applies to his Climb, Hide and Move Silently skills. I'd assume that those are already added in to his skills since his Move Silently is listed as +2, which would be his untrained total with 0 ranks.

And that Blooded feat adds +2 Spot.

The ranger’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (geography) (Int), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), and Use Rope (Dex).

The Fastplay ranger:
Str 13, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 10.

3 pts: Climb +3 (3 ranks, +1 Str, -1 ACP)
4 pts: Handle Animal +4 (4 ranks, +0 Cha)
4 pts: Knowledge (nature) +4 (4 ranks, +0 Int)
2 pts: Hide +3 (2 ranks, +2 Dex, -1 ACP)
3 pts: Listen +4 (3 ranks, +1 Wis)
1 pts: Move Silently +2 (1 ranks, +2 Dex, -1 ACP)
4 pts: Ride +6 (4 ranks, +2 Dex)
2 pts: Speak Language (Ancient Flan)
2 pts: Speak Language (Common)
2 pts: Speak Language (Goblin)
2 pts: Spot +5 (2 ranks, +1 Wis, +2 Blooded feat)
4 pts: Survival +5 (4 ranks, +1 Wis)
===
33 pts

Okay, so relax and enjoy your extra skill points. They might help you make up for your sub-optimal stats and feats.
Arvagor
07-16-06, 12:43 AM Yet another piece of the puzzle: His studded leather armor has an armor check penalty of -1 which applies to his Climb, Hide and Move Silently skills. I'd assume that those are already added in to his skills since his Move Silently is listed as +2, which would be his untrained total with 0 ranks.I missed the armor as well; I presume we're both assuming he doesn't have the heavy wooden shield on hand (also listed in his possessions and accounted for in his ac) when he attempts any of the AC-penalized skills ;)

Okay, so relax and enjoy your extra skill points. They might help you make up for your sub-optimal stats and feats.Which we all know you can't do -- i.e., keep the extra skill points. The easiest way to correct the character is to remove all the bonus languages he has, meaning he can only speak Suel. If you do that, all the other skills can be set at the modifiers indicated on the fast-play character.

Honestly, Oaklock, your best bet is going to be contacting Creighton Broadhurst -- he's the Circle rep in charge of the Bright Sands arc, and is going to be the final authority on all things Bright Sands...
kjenks
07-16-06, 12:53 AM I missed the armor as well; I presume we're both assuming he doesn't have the heavy wooden shield on hand (also listed in his possessions and accounted for in his ac) when he attempts any of the AC-penalized skills ;)

I should have mentioned that we can't count the ACP for the shield. That would require 5 ranks in Climb. If we do try to count that, we have 5 ranks in Climb -- not possible at level 1.

5 pts: Climb +3 (5 ranks, +1 Str, -3 ACP)
4 pts: Handle Animal +4 (4 ranks, +0 Cha)
4 pts: Knowledge (nature) +4 (4 ranks, +0 Int)
4 pts: Hide +3 (4 ranks, +2 Dex, -3 ACP)
3 pts: Listen +4 (3 ranks, +1 Wis)
3 pts: Move Silently +2 (3 ranks, +2 Dex, -3 ACP)
4 pts: Ride +6 (4 ranks, +2 Dex)
2 pts: Speak Language (Ancient Flan)
2 pts: Speak Language (Common)
2 pts: Speak Language (Goblin)
2 pts: Spot +5 (2 ranks, +1 Wis, +2 Blooded feat)
4 pts: Survival +5 (4 ranks, +1 Wis)
===
39 pts

That's pretty good, eh? "Yes, I have campaign documentation for those extra 11 skill points. Take a look at the math."
kjenks
07-16-06, 01:04 AM Come to think of it, you need both hands to climb, so you can't take the -2 ACP from the shield on that skill. Now we have:

3 pts: Climb +3 (3 ranks, +1 Str, -1 ACP)
4 pts: Handle Animal +4 (4 ranks, +0 Cha)
4 pts: Knowledge (nature) +4 (4 ranks, +0 Int)
4 pts: Hide +3 (4 ranks, +2 Dex, -3 ACP)
3 pts: Listen +4 (3 ranks, +1 Wis)
3 pts: Move Silently +2 (3 ranks, +2 Dex, -3 ACP)
4 pts: Ride +6 (4 ranks, +2 Dex)
2 pts: Speak Language (Ancient Flan)
2 pts: Speak Language (Common)
2 pts: Speak Language (Goblin)
2 pts: Spot +5 (2 ranks, +1 Wis, +2 Blooded feat)
4 pts: Survival +5 (4 ranks, +1 Wis)
===
37 pts

Still 9 skill points higher than it should be, but at least we're not taking 5 ranks at level 1.
kjenks
07-16-06, 02:07 AM Well, to see if our Fastplay ranger should be taking his ACP when figuring his skills, let's check out the other Fastplay characters and see if their ACP is figured into THEIR skills. The rogue is wearing leather (ACP 0), so let's look at the half-orc barbarian:

Str 16, Dex 11, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 9.
Studded leather armor, -1 ACP
Heavy wooden shield, -2 ACP

5 pts: Climb +7 (5 ranks, +3 Str, -1 ACP)
3 pts: Jump +7 (3 ranks, +3 Str, -3 ACP, +4 bonus for 40 ft. base move)
2 pts: Listen +2 (2 ranks, +0 Wis)
2 pts: Ride +2 (2 ranks, +0 Dex)
4 pts: Survival +4 (4 ranks, +0 Wis)
===
16 pts

Well, that would be just peachy if a level 1 character could have 5 ranks in Climb, but max ranks is level +4.

So that Fastplay character is messed up, too.

Let's check the druid next.

Str 10, Dex 11, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 12.

Leather armor (-0 ACP), no shield

Nature Sense (Ex): A druid gains a +2 bonus on Knowledge (nature) and Survival checks.

4 pts: Concentration +5
4 pts: Handle Animal +5
2 pts: Knowledge (nature) +5
4 pts: Ride +4
4 pts: Spellcraft +5
2 pts: Survival +7
===
20 pts

So our druid is MISSING four points. A level 1 human druid with Int 12 should have 24 skill points. Maybe they charged him 4 points more because they forgot Nature Sense.

I guess I'd better go back and check the dwarf rogue.

Str 13, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 13, Wis 8, Cha 8.

Leather armor, no shield.

Climb +5, Decipher Script +4, Disable Device +4, Hide +7, Jump +4, Knowledge
(local – Core) +5, Listen +3, Move Silently +7, Open Locks +3, Search +5, Spot +3

Okay, how does a dwarf, base speed 20, get Jump +4 with his -6 penalty? I guess he has 9 ranks in Jump.

And how does a rogue with 0 ACP and +3 Dex bonus get down to Open Locks +3? It's trained only, so he's gotta have at least one rank. But it doesn't appear to be included. Ah, well. He's special, I guess.

4 pts: Climb +5
3 pts: Decipher Script +4
1 pts: Disable Device +4
4 pts: Hide +7
9 pts: Jump +4
4 pts: Knowledge (local – Core) +5
4 pts: Listen +3
4 pts: Move Silently +7
0 pts: Open Locks +3
4 pts: Search +5
4 pts: Spot +3

That's 41 points, or just 35 if we figure that they forgot the -6 penalty on Jump. A level 1 dwarf rogue with Int 13 should have 9x4 = 36 points.

Am I missing anything or is the rogue messed up, too?

Okay, okay, this should be easy. The sorcerer. No armor, no movement modifier to Jump, nothing fancy.

Str 10, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 16.

4 pts: Concentration +5
4 pts: Knowledge (arcana) +5
4 pts: Ride +2 (a cross-class skill)
4 pts: Spellcraft +5
===
16 pts

That's great. A human sorcerer with Int 13 should have 16 pts. So at least they can get the easy one right. (Of course, the moronic sorcerer took a feat to make Gather Information a class skill then she forgot to take any ranks in it. Instead, she has 2 cross-class ranks in Ride -- and no mount!)

We've already discussed the ranger, so let's finish up with the half-elf (ugh) cleric.

Str 12, Dex 8, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 12.

Chain shirt (-2 ACP), no shield.

1 pts: Concentration +3
4 pts: Knowledge (history) +3
4 pts: Knowledge (religion) +5
3 pts: Heal +6
1 pts: Spellcraft +2
===
13 pts

Languages: Ancient Flan, Common, Elvish.

So assuming we need to pay two points for that [Ancient] Flan language, that's 15 pts. A level 1 half-elf cleric with Int 12 should have 4x3 = 12 points. Sigh.

So when you're talking to Creighton about the ranger, point him at this thread or just tell him that the skills are all messed up for all of the Fastplay cahracters and he needs to recompute them. He'll figure it out.
kjenks
07-16-06, 11:04 AM I just wanted to mention -- in case Creighton or someone else wanders by who will update the Fastplay characters -- that the stat block format is insufficient for the purpose of giving players a character that will grow. In order to level up a character later, it's essential for the player to know the number of skill ranks. So the skills for our friend the Fastplay sorcerer should look like this:

Concentration +5 [4 ranks], Knowledge (arcana) +5 [4 ranks], Ride +2 [2 cross-class ranks], Spellcraft +5 [4 ranks];

This way, it's crystal clear how many ranks (and therefore points) are in the skills and it's easy for the player to add ranks to the character when it advances.
Samwise
07-16-06, 12:45 PM Armor Check penalties were not included for any character.

I slipped and gave the ranger one language too many. Feel free to have him not speak Common, but bear in mind you may not be able to say anything to anyone during play because of that.
Or cut one rank from both Spot and Listen if you don't want to annoy everyone else at the table.

With no armor check penalty, the half-orc barbarian is fine.

For the druid, yes I completely overlooked nature sense. Increase his Knowledge (nature) and Survival modifiers by 2 each.

For the dwarf rogue, yes, after remembering the barbarian had a bonus to jump for movement I forgot the dwarf had a penalty. And indeed, the Open Locks should be +4 instead of +3. Be happy, the first version had no ranks in either Open Locks or Disable Device. With those two changes his skill points are correct.

The half-elf gets a bonus language. I believe the Heal should just be +5, that was just a typo.

Somewhere, however far back, is a list of some other minor errors that were pointed out to me by others. I believe several of these were noted there.
And Creighton already knows about these. I wouldn't expect them to be changed, again, given they will all expire in another 5 months.
And, in connection with changes to the Core stat block preparation format, future stat blocks will note modifiers, at least for those of us actually working on them. I'll make a note include any modifiers for Fast Play characters.

Sam Weiss - Core Reviewer
And the one who prepared v2 of the Fast Play characters and still missed things.
kjenks
07-16-06, 01:44 PM And Creighton already knows about these. I wouldn't expect them to be changed, again, given they will all expire in another 5 months.

Okay, so there's probably no point in looking at the skills any further.

And, in connection with changes to the Core stat block preparation format, future stat blocks will note modifiers, at least for those of us actually working on them. I'll make a note include any modifiers for Fast Play characters.

Sam Weiss - Core Reviewer
And the one who prepared v2 of the Fast Play characters and still missed things.

Good. That will help us with whatever Fast Play characters come along in the future.

(BTW, the documentation is inconsistent between "Fastplay" and "Fast Play".)
Oaklock
07-16-06, 04:57 PM Thanks all of you,

I'll just use Samwise's suggestions and print out a copy of his comments to attach to my Ranger.
Oaklock
07-16-06, 05:12 PM But it looks like I'll have to drop 3 skill points, which means Dropping Speak Common and either 1 rank in Listen or Spot.

I'll pick them back up at 2nd level in the spirit of the character.

Thanks again,
lostpike
07-16-06, 05:30 PM So here is my question. Why would they make REALLY CRAPPY characters for newbies to use if they want them to learn how to play this game. Wouldnt it be better to show them Proper builds of characters without wasting points on stupid skills?
Arvagor
07-16-06, 05:39 PM 1) There is no such thing as a "proper" build for characters.

2) No where does it say that the fast-play PCs are there to teach people how to play D&D and/or Living Greyhawk.

3) Not everyone plays the game with an eye towards min-maxing their characters. Some of us actually like to have PCs that have a modicum of realism to them, with abilities that fit a character concept, and skills that reflect that concept.
lostpike
07-16-06, 06:07 PM Fastplay characters are for new players. They are designed so players can sit down without having to worry about wasting time to create a new character before a con or gameday and just learn to love the sytem and not have to worry about the mechanics at first. I just think its not really fair to give them broken tools.
Samwise
07-16-06, 08:46 PM But it looks like I'll have to drop 3 skill points, which means Dropping Speak Common and either 1 rank in Listen or Spot.

I'll pick them back up at 2nd level in the spirit of the character.

Thanks again,

No, it is just 2 skill points over. So just one lanugage, or two ranks somewhere.

As for the comments on "wasted" skills and "broken" characters, they were all designed with their specific backgrounds in mind. They may not be world destroyers, but they are fun. I think that's enough for pregenerated characters.
kjenks
07-16-06, 09:43 PM Sam, would you be so kind as to post your corrected languages and skill totals with [ranks] for each Fast Play character? Thanks?
Oaklock
07-16-06, 09:48 PM Samwise,

Thanks again!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Oaklock 07-15-06, 08:39 PM	I am working on developing a Bright Lands Ranger and have a few questions. 1) Can you have the fast play Bright Lands Ranger if you do not own the Sandstorm supplement? 2) Can adjust the Ability points and still use the fast play model? Like increasing the strength from 13 to 14, and reducing wisdom by 1? 3) I noticed that, assuming that the Speak Languages skill costs 2 skill points, that this fast play character has 33 skill points. It would have 30 skill points if the Speak Languages skills each cost one point. The normal human Ranger of Intelligence 10 will have 28 skill points. How come? Thanks,
kjenks 07-15-06, 09:22 PM	I am working on developing a Bright Lands Ranger and have a few questions. 1) Can you have the fast play Bright Lands Ranger if you do not own the Sandstorm supplement? Yes. There's no rule in the Blight on Bright Sands Sourcebook (BoBS) saying that you must own Sandstorm. (But, hey, don't be a cheapskate. Buy the book.) 2) Can adjust the Ability points and still use the fast play model? Like increasing the strength from 13 to 14, and reducing wisdom by 1? No, you've gotta play 'em as you get 'em. They're all sub-optimal characters, but that seems to be by design, not by accident. 3) I noticed that, assuming that the Speak Languages skill costs 2 skill points, that this fast play character has 33 skill points. It would have 30 skill points if the Speak Languages skills each cost one point. The normal human Ranger of Intelligence 10 will have 28 skill points. How come? Speak Language costs two skill points for a ranger. But I believe there was a change in the BoBS Fastplay characters. You might have the old version. I just downloaded the latest from http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=lg/welcome The ranger has: Str 13, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 10. 2 pts: Climb +3 4 pts: Handle Animal +4 4 pts: Knowledge (nature) +4 1 pts: Hide +3 2 pts: Listen +4 1 pts: Move Silently +3 4 pts: Ride +6 2 pts: Speak Language (Ancient Flan) 0 pts: Speak Language (Common) 2 pts: Speak Language (Goblin) 3 pts: Spot +5 3 pts: Survival +5 === 28 pts Looks okay to me. BTW, "Ancient Flan" is the same as Flan, by the latest LGCS.
Arvagor 07-15-06, 09:24 PM	1) Can you have the fast play Bright Lands Ranger if you do not own the Sandstorm supplement?Theoretically, yes, as I don't see anything in the build that makes use of Sandstorm material. 2) Can adjust the Ability points and still use the fast play model? Like increasing the strength from 13 to 14, and reducing wisdom by 1? 3) I noticed that, assuming that the Speak Languages skill costs 2 skill points, that this fast play character has 33 skill points. It would have 30 skill points if the Speak Languages skills each cost one point. The normal human Ranger of Intelligence 10 will have 28 skill points. How come?IIRC, the Circle has said that you cannot make any adjustments to the characters' stats, feats, skills, etc. barring major mistakes. That being said, the only thing IMO you can adjust is the fact that, yes, the skill points were overspent, although your math is not entirely correct. As I count it, if you disregard the extra three languages, the PC has spent only 25 of his 28 skill points -- were you taking stat bumps into account for each skill? I see the following points spent: - Knowledge (Nature) - 4 - Hide - 1 - Move Silently - 1 - Climb - 2 - Spot - 2 - Listen - 3 - Handle Animal - 4 - Ride - 4 - Survival - 4 Given that, whoever built him probably thought Speak Languages cost 1 point per language, and gave him Common, Goblin, and Ancient Flan for 1 point apiece. I would say a permissible change is that he still takes Common as a language (2 points), leaving you 1 point to spend as you please.
Arvagor 07-15-06, 09:30 PM	2 pts: Listen +4 ... 0 pts: Speak Language (Common)The build spent 3 points on Listen and Speak Language(Common) will cost him 2 points as well (the Suel nomads do not speak Common automatically)
kjenks 07-15-06, 11:29 PM	I think I see part of the problem. When I first looked at the BoBS fastplay characters, I had trouble seeing the difference between a 3 and a 5 in the goofy font they use. For example, I thought it said Wis 15 instead of Wis 13. When I copy/paste the stats into a more readable font, it's easy to see what the stats really are. Maybe another part of the problem is the goofy language rules. The Fastplay ranger's stat block says he speaks Ancient Suel and Common. The BoBS says: === Special Rules: Suel nomads are humans as presented in the Player’s Handbook, but have an automatic language of Ancient Suloise. They must take Common as either a bonus language, or gain it with the Speak Language skill. === Yet another piece of the puzzle: His studded leather armor has an armor check penalty of -1 which applies to his Climb, Hide and Move Silently skills. I'd assume that those are already added in to his skills since his Move Silently is listed as +2, which would be his untrained total with 0 ranks. And that Blooded feat adds +2 Spot. The ranger’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (geography) (Int), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), and Use Rope (Dex). The Fastplay ranger: Str 13, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 10. 3 pts: Climb +3 (3 ranks, +1 Str, -1 ACP) 4 pts: Handle Animal +4 (4 ranks, +0 Cha) 4 pts: Knowledge (nature) +4 (4 ranks, +0 Int) 2 pts: Hide +3 (2 ranks, +2 Dex, -1 ACP) 3 pts: Listen +4 (3 ranks, +1 Wis) 1 pts: Move Silently +2 (1 ranks, +2 Dex, -1 ACP) 4 pts: Ride +6 (4 ranks, +2 Dex) 2 pts: Speak Language (Ancient Flan) 2 pts: Speak Language (Common) 2 pts: Speak Language (Goblin) 2 pts: Spot +5 (2 ranks, +1 Wis, +2 Blooded feat) 4 pts: Survival +5 (4 ranks, +1 Wis) === 33 pts Okay, so relax and enjoy your extra skill points. They might help you make up for your sub-optimal stats and feats.
Arvagor 07-16-06, 12:43 AM	Yet another piece of the puzzle: His studded leather armor has an armor check penalty of -1 which applies to his Climb, Hide and Move Silently skills. I'd assume that those are already added in to his skills since his Move Silently is listed as +2, which would be his untrained total with 0 ranks.I missed the armor as well; I presume we're both assuming he doesn't have the heavy wooden shield on hand (also listed in his possessions and accounted for in his ac) when he attempts any of the AC-penalized skills ;) Okay, so relax and enjoy your extra skill points. They might help you make up for your sub-optimal stats and feats.Which we all know you can't do -- i.e., keep the extra skill points. The easiest way to correct the character is to remove all the bonus languages he has, meaning he can only speak Suel. If you do that, all the other skills can be set at the modifiers indicated on the fast-play character. Honestly, Oaklock, your best bet is going to be contacting Creighton Broadhurst -- he's the Circle rep in charge of the Bright Sands arc, and is going to be the final authority on all things Bright Sands...
kjenks 07-16-06, 12:53 AM	I missed the armor as well; I presume we're both assuming he doesn't have the heavy wooden shield on hand (also listed in his possessions and accounted for in his ac) when he attempts any of the AC-penalized skills ;) I should have mentioned that we can't count the ACP for the shield. That would require 5 ranks in Climb. If we do try to count that, we have 5 ranks in Climb -- not possible at level 1. 5 pts: Climb +3 (5 ranks, +1 Str, -3 ACP) 4 pts: Handle Animal +4 (4 ranks, +0 Cha) 4 pts: Knowledge (nature) +4 (4 ranks, +0 Int) 4 pts: Hide +3 (4 ranks, +2 Dex, -3 ACP) 3 pts: Listen +4 (3 ranks, +1 Wis) 3 pts: Move Silently +2 (3 ranks, +2 Dex, -3 ACP) 4 pts: Ride +6 (4 ranks, +2 Dex) 2 pts: Speak Language (Ancient Flan) 2 pts: Speak Language (Common) 2 pts: Speak Language (Goblin) 2 pts: Spot +5 (2 ranks, +1 Wis, +2 Blooded feat) 4 pts: Survival +5 (4 ranks, +1 Wis) === 39 pts That's pretty good, eh? "Yes, I have campaign documentation for those extra 11 skill points. Take a look at the math."
kjenks 07-16-06, 01:04 AM	Come to think of it, you need both hands to climb, so you can't take the -2 ACP from the shield on that skill. Now we have: 3 pts: Climb +3 (3 ranks, +1 Str, -1 ACP) 4 pts: Handle Animal +4 (4 ranks, +0 Cha) 4 pts: Knowledge (nature) +4 (4 ranks, +0 Int) 4 pts: Hide +3 (4 ranks, +2 Dex, -3 ACP) 3 pts: Listen +4 (3 ranks, +1 Wis) 3 pts: Move Silently +2 (3 ranks, +2 Dex, -3 ACP) 4 pts: Ride +6 (4 ranks, +2 Dex) 2 pts: Speak Language (Ancient Flan) 2 pts: Speak Language (Common) 2 pts: Speak Language (Goblin) 2 pts: Spot +5 (2 ranks, +1 Wis, +2 Blooded feat) 4 pts: Survival +5 (4 ranks, +1 Wis) === 37 pts Still 9 skill points higher than it should be, but at least we're not taking 5 ranks at level 1.
kjenks 07-16-06, 02:07 AM	Well, to see if our Fastplay ranger should be taking his ACP when figuring his skills, let's check out the other Fastplay characters and see if their ACP is figured into THEIR skills. The rogue is wearing leather (ACP 0), so let's look at the half-orc barbarian: Str 16, Dex 11, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 9. Studded leather armor, -1 ACP Heavy wooden shield, -2 ACP 5 pts: Climb +7 (5 ranks, +3 Str, -1 ACP) 3 pts: Jump +7 (3 ranks, +3 Str, -3 ACP, +4 bonus for 40 ft. base move) 2 pts: Listen +2 (2 ranks, +0 Wis) 2 pts: Ride +2 (2 ranks, +0 Dex) 4 pts: Survival +4 (4 ranks, +0 Wis) === 16 pts Well, that would be just peachy if a level 1 character could have 5 ranks in Climb, but max ranks is level +4. So that Fastplay character is messed up, too. Let's check the druid next. Str 10, Dex 11, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 12. Leather armor (-0 ACP), no shield Nature Sense (Ex): A druid gains a +2 bonus on Knowledge (nature) and Survival checks. 4 pts: Concentration +5 4 pts: Handle Animal +5 2 pts: Knowledge (nature) +5 4 pts: Ride +4 4 pts: Spellcraft +5 2 pts: Survival +7 === 20 pts So our druid is MISSING four points. A level 1 human druid with Int 12 should have 24 skill points. Maybe they charged him 4 points more because they forgot Nature Sense. I guess I'd better go back and check the dwarf rogue. Str 13, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 13, Wis 8, Cha 8. Leather armor, no shield. Climb +5, Decipher Script +4, Disable Device +4, Hide +7, Jump +4, Knowledge (local – Core) +5, Listen +3, Move Silently +7, Open Locks +3, Search +5, Spot +3 Okay, how does a dwarf, base speed 20, get Jump +4 with his -6 penalty? I guess he has 9 ranks in Jump. And how does a rogue with 0 ACP and +3 Dex bonus get down to Open Locks +3? It's trained only, so he's gotta have at least one rank. But it doesn't appear to be included. Ah, well. He's special, I guess. 4 pts: Climb +5 3 pts: Decipher Script +4 1 pts: Disable Device +4 4 pts: Hide +7 9 pts: Jump +4 4 pts: Knowledge (local – Core) +5 4 pts: Listen +3 4 pts: Move Silently +7 0 pts: Open Locks +3 4 pts: Search +5 4 pts: Spot +3 That's 41 points, or just 35 if we figure that they forgot the -6 penalty on Jump. A level 1 dwarf rogue with Int 13 should have 9x4 = 36 points. Am I missing anything or is the rogue messed up, too? Okay, okay, this should be easy. The sorcerer. No armor, no movement modifier to Jump, nothing fancy. Str 10, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 16. 4 pts: Concentration +5 4 pts: Knowledge (arcana) +5 4 pts: Ride +2 (a cross-class skill) 4 pts: Spellcraft +5 === 16 pts That's great. A human sorcerer with Int 13 should have 16 pts. So at least they can get the easy one right. (Of course, the moronic sorcerer took a feat to make Gather Information a class skill then she forgot to take any ranks in it. Instead, she has 2 cross-class ranks in Ride -- and no mount!) We've already discussed the ranger, so let's finish up with the half-elf (ugh) cleric. Str 12, Dex 8, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 12. Chain shirt (-2 ACP), no shield. 1 pts: Concentration +3 4 pts: Knowledge (history) +3 4 pts: Knowledge (religion) +5 3 pts: Heal +6 1 pts: Spellcraft +2 === 13 pts Languages: Ancient Flan, Common, Elvish. So assuming we need to pay two points for that [Ancient] Flan language, that's 15 pts. A level 1 half-elf cleric with Int 12 should have 4x3 = 12 points. Sigh. So when you're talking to Creighton about the ranger, point him at this thread or just tell him that the skills are all messed up for all of the Fastplay cahracters and he needs to recompute them. He'll figure it out.
kjenks 07-16-06, 11:04 AM	I just wanted to mention -- in case Creighton or someone else wanders by who will update the Fastplay characters -- that the stat block format is insufficient for the purpose of giving players a character that will grow. In order to level up a character later, it's essential for the player to know the number of skill ranks. So the skills for our friend the Fastplay sorcerer should look like this: Concentration +5 [4 ranks], Knowledge (arcana) +5 [4 ranks], Ride +2 [2 cross-class ranks], Spellcraft +5 [4 ranks]; This way, it's crystal clear how many ranks (and therefore points) are in the skills and it's easy for the player to add ranks to the character when it advances.
Samwise 07-16-06, 12:45 PM	Armor Check penalties were not included for any character. I slipped and gave the ranger one language too many. Feel free to have him not speak Common, but bear in mind you may not be able to say anything to anyone during play because of that. Or cut one rank from both Spot and Listen if you don't want to annoy everyone else at the table. With no armor check penalty, the half-orc barbarian is fine. For the druid, yes I completely overlooked nature sense. Increase his Knowledge (nature) and Survival modifiers by 2 each. For the dwarf rogue, yes, after remembering the barbarian had a bonus to jump for movement I forgot the dwarf had a penalty. And indeed, the Open Locks should be +4 instead of +3. Be happy, the first version had no ranks in either Open Locks or Disable Device. With those two changes his skill points are correct. The half-elf gets a bonus language. I believe the Heal should just be +5, that was just a typo. Somewhere, however far back, is a list of some other minor errors that were pointed out to me by others. I believe several of these were noted there. And Creighton already knows about these. I wouldn't expect them to be changed, again, given they will all expire in another 5 months. And, in connection with changes to the Core stat block preparation format, future stat blocks will note modifiers, at least for those of us actually working on them. I'll make a note include any modifiers for Fast Play characters. Sam Weiss - Core Reviewer And the one who prepared v2 of the Fast Play characters and still missed things.
kjenks 07-16-06, 01:44 PM	And Creighton already knows about these. I wouldn't expect them to be changed, again, given they will all expire in another 5 months. Okay, so there's probably no point in looking at the skills any further. And, in connection with changes to the Core stat block preparation format, future stat blocks will note modifiers, at least for those of us actually working on them. I'll make a note include any modifiers for Fast Play characters. Sam Weiss - Core Reviewer And the one who prepared v2 of the Fast Play characters and still missed things. Good. That will help us with whatever Fast Play characters come along in the future. (BTW, the documentation is inconsistent between "Fastplay" and "Fast Play".)
Oaklock 07-16-06, 04:57 PM	Thanks all of you, I'll just use Samwise's suggestions and print out a copy of his comments to attach to my Ranger.
Oaklock 07-16-06, 05:12 PM	But it looks like I'll have to drop 3 skill points, which means Dropping Speak Common and either 1 rank in Listen or Spot. I'll pick them back up at 2nd level in the spirit of the character. Thanks again,
lostpike 07-16-06, 05:30 PM	So here is my question. Why would they make REALLY CRAPPY characters for newbies to use if they want them to learn how to play this game. Wouldnt it be better to show them Proper builds of characters without wasting points on stupid skills?
Arvagor 07-16-06, 05:39 PM	1) There is no such thing as a "proper" build for characters. 2) No where does it say that the fast-play PCs are there to teach people how to play D&D and/or Living Greyhawk. 3) Not everyone plays the game with an eye towards min-maxing their characters. Some of us actually like to have PCs that have a modicum of realism to them, with abilities that fit a character concept, and skills that reflect that concept.
lostpike 07-16-06, 06:07 PM	Fastplay characters are for new players. They are designed so players can sit down without having to worry about wasting time to create a new character before a con or gameday and just learn to love the sytem and not have to worry about the mechanics at first. I just think its not really fair to give them broken tools.
Samwise 07-16-06, 08:46 PM	But it looks like I'll have to drop 3 skill points, which means Dropping Speak Common and either 1 rank in Listen or Spot. I'll pick them back up at 2nd level in the spirit of the character. Thanks again, No, it is just 2 skill points over. So just one lanugage, or two ranks somewhere. As for the comments on "wasted" skills and "broken" characters, they were all designed with their specific backgrounds in mind. They may not be world destroyers, but they are fun. I think that's enough for pregenerated characters.
kjenks 07-16-06, 09:43 PM	Sam, would you be so kind as to post your corrected languages and skill totals with [ranks] for each Fast Play character? Thanks?
Oaklock 07-16-06, 09:48 PM	Samwise, Thanks again!