Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gwenfloor 06-02-05, 12:18 PM	I played the module Traitor's Road and found out that Rary's society is so sexist that they torture women just for speaking in public to anyone, unless a male commands it. I had a female PC and my character got beaten for attemoting to talk! It did not say anything like this in the Gazzetter! I think it should be required that in modules not of your Region should have a list of cultural taboos specific to that Region so people's PCs do not get lynched! Anyway, why are they sexist? A fellow player told me that Otiluke wanted to punish Rary by implanting an enchantment spell on all the males in the country to sub-consciously despise women. Otiluke's not evil, so I doubt this is it. Geshtai and Istus are the country's religious deities according to the Gazzetteer, but they are women! In short, why are they sexist and why does the LGG not warn us of this?
Simpi 06-02-05, 01:30 PM	I played the module Traitor's Road and found out that Rary's society is so sexist that they torture women just for speaking in public to anyone, unless a male commands it. I had a female PC and my character got beaten for attemoting to talk! It did not say anything like this in the Gazzetter! I think it should be required that in modules not of your Region should have a list of cultural taboos specific to that Region so people's PCs do not get lynched! Anyway, why are they sexist? A fellow player told me that Otiluke wanted to punish Rary by implanting an enchantment spell on all the males in the country to sub-consciously despise women. Otiluke's not evil, so I doubt this is it. Geshtai and Istus are the country's religious deities according to the Gazzetteer, but they are women! In short, why are they sexist and why does the LGG not warn us of this? I think the horsemen are Paynims and If I remember correctly, their culture is like that. You got beaten up, too bad but nothing more serious happened. Maybe the LGG does not say it because it would make too easy for PCs to avoid making cultural mistakes by thinking that common values would be equally acceptable everywhere else (this applies to real world as well). I was in a table with Scarlet Brotherhood member in Sunndi and he did not know it is HIGHLY illegal (= you get shortened by your head), actually treason, to belong to it and got into trouble. Our regional got a big warning on blurb because it's a cultural thing to magically screen people for Brotherhood members and then make them do a rope dance. Oh, and since the module retired at the start of the year, I hope you did not play it recently because otherwise you are breaking RPGA rules. S.H, Ahlissa (Naerie) webslave
arphaxad 06-02-05, 03:13 PM	I think the horsemen are Paynims and If I remember correctly, their culture is like that. You got beaten up, too bad but nothing more serious happened. Maybe the LGG does not say it because it would make too easy for PCs to avoid making cultural mistakes by thinking that common values would be equally acceptable everywhere else (this applies to real world as well). I was in a table with Scarlet Brotherhood member in Sunndi and he did not know it is HIGHLY illegal (= you get shortened by your head), actually treason, to belong to it and got into trouble. Our regional got a big warning on blurb because it's a cultural thing to magically screen people for Brotherhood members and then make them do a rope dance. Oh, and since the module retired at the start of the year, I hope you did not play it recently because otherwise you are breaking RPGA rules. S.H, Ahlissa (Naerie) webslave He can still play it for fun I suppose, or as part of a homegame. I think they should make it more illegal to be a scarlet brotherhood member here in the sheldomar too, of course keolands chock full of them i suppose so that wouldn't go over.
kenobi65 06-02-05, 03:35 PM	He can still play it for fun I suppose, or as part of a homegame. Both would still be illegal under RPGA rules.
Gwenfloor 06-02-05, 04:22 PM	I played it in 2004, and it was a long time ago. Let's stick on topic. Did Otiluke really do what my friend said that he did? Why would they worship female deities when they have no respect for females themselves? In the module, they also beat my character for praying to Myrlind, since they thought that no deity would answer a woman's prayers, and I heard in the module that they kill women who cast spells. It seems hard to be sexist in D&D, because there are many females who can cast spells and can be stronger than men. Have they heard of Eclavdra, Wee Jas, or Lolth? If some male-chauvinist-pig goes around bad-mouthing women in D&D, theycan and will get their arses kicked. Example: "No woman can beat me in any test of strength or mind!" "Uh, Mr. Paynim..." "WHAT?!" "That's a storm giant girl. She's 20 feet tall and can cast spells." "BUT SHE'S A WOMAN!" 2 Rounds, and one dead Paynim later... "Stupid idiot doesn't realize when he's outmatched..."
King Kashue 06-02-05, 05:42 PM	There is nothing canon that says Otiluke did what that fellow said... As for the Panyims, that's their culture...Does your character have the requisite knowledge skills to know about their culture? Did you ask the DM to provide information based on a knowledge skill roll?
Mekorig 06-03-05, 07:26 AM	I played it in 2004, and it was a long time ago. Let's stick on topic. Did Otiluke really do what my friend said that he did? Why would they worship female deities when they have no respect for females themselves? In the module, they also beat my character for praying to Myrlind, since they thought that no deity would answer a woman's prayers, and I heard in the module that they kill women who cast spells. It seems hard to be sexist in D&D, because there are many females who can cast spells and can be stronger than men. Have they heard of Eclavdra, Wee Jas, or Lolth? If some male-chauvinist-pig goes around bad-mouthing women in D&D, theycan and will get their arses kicked. Example: "No woman can beat me in any test of strength or mind!" "Uh, Mr. Paynim..." "WHAT?!" "That's a storm giant girl. She's 20 feet tall and can cast spells." "BUT SHE'S A WOMAN!" 2 Rounds, and one dead Paynim later... "Stupid idiot doesn't realize when he's outmatched..." simple solution: if a have a women pj, and a paynin say anything worng to me, or try to unch me, i kill him. OF course i will not try to make publick that i am a woman. IN desert clothes you can cheat a lot of people about your sex. But if i am found and they attack me, i respond. Easy.
Simpi 06-03-05, 07:48 AM	simple solution: if a have a women pj, and a paynin say anything worng to me, or try to unch me, i kill him. OF course i will not try to make publick that i am a woman. IN desert clothes you can cheat a lot of people about your sex. But if i am found and they attack me, i respond. Easy. After which remaining two hundred Paynims come and rip you to pieces. Same goes to the Storm Giant example. Sometimes PCs just seem to think they are omnipotent and need to be slapped down* and hard... S.H, Ahlissa (Naerie) webslave (*like one player who thought that random Ahlissan military patrol was especially out to look for them and attacked them, instead of just staying hidden and waiting for them to pass, getting himself permanently killed and rest of the players imprisoned. You could say he swallowed the hook, line and sinker of the author's trick.)
Prochytes 06-03-05, 03:29 PM	A fellow player told me that Otiluke wanted to punish Rary by implanting an enchantment spell on all the males in the country to sub-consciously despise women. This is not only non-canonical but impossible. Rary killed Otiluke permanently before he fled to the Bright Lands. Prior to this act, noone knew that he had any interest in the area.
RLWilde 06-03-05, 07:36 PM	A fellow player told me that Otiluke wanted to punish Rary by implanting an enchantment spell on all the males in the country to sub-consciously despise women. This is not only non-canonical but impossible. Rary killed Otiluke permanently before he fled to the Bright Lands. Prior to this act, noone knew that he had any interest in the area. Of course, that also depends on whether the statement from the fellow player was IC or OOC. If IC, it's quite possible that his PC believes it or for some reason wants the PC he told to believe it.
Mekorig 06-03-05, 07:58 PM	After which remaining two hundred Paynims come and rip you to pieces. Same goes to the Storm Giant example. Sometimes PCs just seem to think they are omnipotent and need to be slapped down* and hard... S.H, Ahlissa (Naerie) webslave (*like one player who thought that random Ahlissan military patrol was especially out to look for them and attacked them, instead of just staying hidden and waiting for them to pass, getting himself permanently killed and rest of the players imprisoned. You could say he swallowed the hook, line and sinker of the author's trick.) that why you must do it quietly and discretly :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :P
Gwenfloor 06-04-05, 11:29 AM	So, this leaves me with one more question. Why do they worship female deities when they have no respect for females themselves? Or do they worship other deities than the ones in LGG? Or do they stupidly believe Geshtai and Istus to be men?
Prochytes 06-04-05, 12:03 PM	So, this leaves me with one more question. Why do they worship female deities when they have no respect for females themselves? Or do they worship other deities than the ones in LGG? Or do they stupidly believe Geshtai and Istus to be men? Think of historical analogies. In Republican Rome, women were not allowed to act in business matters without supervision by a man on the alleged grounds that they were foolish and could not be expected to make sensible decisions. This did not stop the same Roman men from worshipping Juno, Minerva, Venus, et al.
Simpi 06-04-05, 02:11 PM	[I] Think of historical analogies. In Republican Rome, women were not allowed to act in business matters without supervision by a man on the alleged grounds that they were foolish and could not be expected to make sensible decisions. This did not stop the same Roman men from worshipping Juno, Minerva, Venus, et al. And with Asheratis around, worship of Geshtai is easily explained. S.H, Ahlissa (Naerie) webslave
Gwenfloor 06-04-05, 03:03 PM	Who's Asheratis?
Simpi 06-05-05, 02:53 AM	Who's Asheratis? Read the Bright Sands sourcebook. They are a new race (also available as PC race) that was created during the destruction of Sulm (the old Kingdom of Flan) when Shattados donned the Scorpion Crown. Rather than turning into man-scorpions like the rest, those who were not totally evil prayed for help and Geshtai answered by turning them into Asheratis. As a result they changed into tall and thin creatures (bit like 'Grey' humanoids from X-Files) that are highly adapted into desert life (among other things they can burrow through sand). They all worship Geshtai and if somebody should deviate from this path, he/she is instantly turned into pile of dust and quite naturally resurrection is impossible :D Racial details and more information are in the Sandstorm book. S.H, Ahlissa (Naerie) webslave
Cardinal Teplin 06-06-05, 02:29 PM	After which remaining two hundred Paynims come and rip you to pieces. Same goes to the Storm Giant example. Sometimes PCs just seem to think they are omnipotent and need to be slapped down* and hard Matter of opinion. Personally, I can't help feeling that any culture that only ever enforces it's social mores by means of violence towards those who break them is pretty much doomed from the get go. I have no objection to social taboos stopping me from completing my mission. I do have an objection to the idea that the social fabric of a country or people somehow automatically translates to the same kind of military force that PCs specialise in. Yes, some PCs seem to think they are omniopotent, and may even need to be slapped down. But they should be slapped down as softly as possilble. It's much much more effective. The problem with just translating everything into violence, is that the PCs feel entirely justified in protecting themselves, and the result is an awful lot of devastation. Just as the Paynim feel that, for example, women should be seen and not heard, so too the PC might feel the opposite. Faced with a direct clash of culture like that, no one side can really be said to be in the right, and if it's all just a preface to violence, then people can feel morally justified in enforcing their own values over those of their enemies, over piles of corpses if necessary.
Simpi 06-06-05, 03:53 PM	Yes, some PCs seem to think they are omniopotent, and may even need to be slapped down. But they should be slapped down as softly as possilble. It's much much more effective. The problem with just translating everything into violence, is that the PCs feel entirely justified in protecting themselves, and the result is an awful lot of devastation. But with some players it's just too hard for DM to bother with 'gentle'. I've had to endure players who are ready to demolish a bar after somebody refuses to give them information or who kill a helpless old man after he starts casting comprehend languages ("nobody casts a spell in my presence without informing me" they would say) to actually understand what players are saying. S.H, Ahlissa (Naerie) webslave.
King Kashue 06-06-05, 04:29 PM	Matter of opinion. Personally, I can't help feeling that any culture that only ever enforces it's social mores by means of violence towards those who break them is pretty much doomed from the get go. I have no objection to social taboos stopping me from completing my mission. I do have an objection to the idea that the social fabric of a country or people somehow automatically translates to the same kind of military force that PCs specialise in. Yes, some PCs seem to think they are omniopotent, and may even need to be slapped down. But they should be slapped down as softly as possilble. It's much much more effective. The problem with just translating everything into violence, is that the PCs feel entirely justified in protecting themselves, and the result is an awful lot of devastation. Just as the Paynim feel that, for example, women should be seen and not heard, so too the PC might feel the opposite. Faced with a direct clash of culture like that, no one side can really be said to be in the right, and if it's all just a preface to violence, then people can feel morally justified in enforcing their own values over those of their enemies, over piles of corpses if necessary. In the context of the module however, there is a ritual combat that can solve the dispute, it can also be settled by diplomacy... As for this particular complaint, the original poster's DM ran it wrong "I played the module Traitor's Road and found out that Rary's society is so sexist that they torture women just for speaking in public to anyone, unless a male commands it. I had a female PC and my character got beaten for attemoting to talk! It did not say anything like this in the Gazzetter!" It doesn't say that in the module...The Misogynism of the Panyims is actually written as a contrast to the Matriarchal NPCs from Hardby (which is a Gynarchy)...The NPCs are rude to women, but there is nothing about torturing women or forbidding speaking in public...Your DM bolloxed it... On the issue of PCs standing up for themselves, a bit later on, there is an NPC in camp who the DM is instructed to bring in if the PCs get uppity...Robilar... When I ran you guys (Teplin's group) through it, I really wanted you to screw something up so that I would get to role-play him... :D
Cardinal Teplin 06-07-05, 10:50 AM	That would have been interesting - almost all of Teplins monster forms are female, for reasons which are complicated... But of the three women we had, Jel was far too mild mannered to actually get upset where someone might see her, and Vola is too much the half-orc in civilised lands to ever risk losing her temper and accidently proving someone's prejudice right. Elysia did get upset, but consoled herself by flirting and doing favours for the people who were more polite to her. That said, the Thorns were far less sympathetic to Rary and co after that module, and I suspect it was their treatment of the women that really tipped the balance. Remember Jel 'losing her temper' towards the end of the adventure. The bit where she actually raised her voice? Rary's not had much sympathy from the Thorns ever since...
King Kashue 06-07-05, 01:22 PM	That would have been interesting - almost all of Teplins monster forms are female, for reasons which are complicated... But of the three women we had, Jel was far too mild mannered to actually get upset where someone might see her, and Vola is too much the half-orc in civilised lands to ever risk losing her temper and accidently proving someone's prejudice right. Elysia did get upset, but consoled herself by flirting and doing favours for the people who were more polite to her. That said, the Thorns were far less sympathetic to Rary and co after that module, and I suspect it was their treatment of the women that really tipped the balance. Remember Jel 'losing her temper' towards the end of the adventure. The bit where she actually raised her voice? Rary's not had much sympathy from the Thorns ever since... Interesting yes, but not good for the party...If you really bollocks things up (specifically if you assist the assassin in any way) the instructions are that Robilar (and the thousands of Paynims, but it's more fun if just he does it) kills your party... If you screw things up by letting Eliazar die (but don't actually help), the paynims grab you, and are about to kill you when Robilar steps in, blames the death on Eliazar's own incompetence, and then sets you free...That was the ending I was kinda hoping for...There's a cool speech (in the Robilar character) that goes with it as well... :D As for party interaction, Jel's rebuff of the Amourous Panyim Cheiftain remains one of my favorite LG moments ever...
Gwenfloor 06-13-05, 11:04 AM	In my module (my crazy DM's one), it should be common sense that my PC and the other PCs would attempt to defend my character from harm due to a misunderstood taboo. Since the PCs and I could do nothing about it because of all the thousands of Paynims, it feels like a let-down when you and your fellow party members are ridiculed and hurt and there is nothing that you can do about it. The main point of D&D is to have fun, and having your PC get the crap beat out of him/her and there is nothing you can do about it, then it really takes the fun away. :weep: