Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gaelforcwynd 02-27-07, 04:53 AM	Can you wear a buckler on your primary hand? If so, would you gain an extra +1 to AC if you wore one on your off-hand and primary hand? Would you then take a -1 to attack rolls on both hands?
Arvagor 02-27-07, 09:08 AM	Can you wear a buckler on your primary hand? If so, would you gain an extra +1 to AC if you wore one on your off-hand and primary hand?Yes, you can wear a buckler on both arms, but since both grant a shield bonus to AC, you would only whichever shield bonus is higher (e.g., if one were enchanted and the other was not). Would you then take a -1 to attack rolls on both hands?Yes
UMiskatonic 02-27-07, 09:11 AM	Umm, have fun with that. If you were to take ALL of the shield feats, a TWF dual shield fighter can be mechanically effective. Lamer than just about anything, too
Gaelforcwynd 02-27-07, 09:13 AM	Can you wear a buckler on your primary hand? If so, would you gain an extra +1 to AC if you wore one on your off-hand and primary hand? Would you then take a -1 to attack rolls on both hands? I obtained a copy of Complete Warrior on the weekend and am playing around with ideas. I'm new to the world of warrior builds and I'm sure this has been done ad nauseum, so bear with me. I was thinking of a straight Fighter melee machine. This idea would be really cool if I could use a buckler on each arm. This isn't so much about hitting often and hard, but more about sacrificing that couple of points of attack and damage bonus for extra opportunities to add a bonus dice of damage though criticals. Human Fighter 12 STR: 14 (+2) - low but doesn't matter, this is more about critical opportunities DEX: 16 (+3) - +3 to attacks with off-hand, +3 to AC CON: 16 (+3) - 112 HP @ 12th level INT: 8 (-1) - who cares WIS: 10 (0) - at least it's not negative CHA: 8 (-1) - actions speak louder than words 1st: Exotic Weapon Proficiency(two-bladed sword), Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus(two-bladed sword) 2nd: Two-Weapon Defence 3rd: Improved Buckler Defence 4th: (DEX 17), Power Critical 5th: - 6th: Improved Two-Weapon Defence, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting 7th - 8th: (DEX 18), Improved Critical 9th: Greater Weapon Focus(two-bladed sword)? 10th: Eyes in the Back of your Head? Weapon Finesse? Weapon Specialization (two-bladed sword)? 11th: - 12th: (DEX 19), Greater Two-Weapon Defence, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting In theory, I'd have 6 attacks or critical opportunities per round and even using two plain bucklers and full plate my AC should be 24. I'd probably have at least a +2 enhancement at 12th level, so more realisitically my AC then would be around 30. Hopefully there is some good splat book armour that would allow me to fill it out even more with my +4 DEX AC modifier. I'm sure this is flawed though, so I'm hoping someone can offer me a little guidance. :)
Gaelforcwynd 02-27-07, 09:14 AM	Yes, you can wear a buckler on both arms, but since both grant a shield bonus to AC, you would only whichever shield bonus is higher (e.g., if one were enchanted and the other was not). Yes Can you only take a single shield bonus?
bhale187 02-27-07, 09:26 AM	Can you only take a single shield bonus? It is most commonly accepted that shield's ac bonuses do not stack, however it is a point of contention for some on the boards. As for your build, fighting with a twohanded weapon will do more standard damage then fighting with 2 weapon style. However, if you are hoping to do more damage due to added critical hit potential I would suggest changing your weapon type to something that has a better critical range. Rapiers for instance would give you a much better likelyhood of multiple critical hits each round and therefore give a chance to make up for the damage lost due to not powerattacking with a 2 handed weapon.
ShinAkuma2 02-27-07, 09:50 AM	It is most commonly accepted that shield's ac bonuses do not stack, however it is a point of contention for some on the boards. Like who? :confused: It's quite clearly stated that bonuses of the same type don't stack (with, of course, the exceptions of Dodge and Circumstance bonuses). Two shields each provide a shield bonus, so they don't stack. It's just like casting Mage Armor on a guy in Chain Shirt; the two armor bonuses don't stack.
Munkwunk 02-27-07, 01:10 PM	ShinAkuma2 is correct. From d20srd.org: Stacking In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). If the modifiers to a particular roll do not stack, only the best bonus and worst penalty applies. Dodge bonuses and circumstance bonuses however, do stack with one another unless otherwise specified. Shield Bonus A shield bonus improves Armor Class and is granted by a shield or by a spell or magic effect that mimics a shield. Shield bonuses stack with all other bonuses to AC except other shield bonuses.
bhale187 02-27-07, 01:27 PM	I did and am not suggesting I think they stack, however if you go to the D&D forums you can almost always find a current thread arguing about 2 shield use. It seems clear to me you cannot do it, but just like every other rule in D&D there are people who will argue about it.
Arvagor 02-27-07, 07:13 PM	I did and am not suggesting I think they stack, however if you go to the D&D forums you can almost always find a current thread arguing about 2 shield use. It seems clear to me you cannot do it, but just like every other rule in D&D there are people who will argue about it.Sure you can do it; there's just not much advantage to doing it, short of having an additional item on which to place enchantments, while keeping the costs down, i.e., wielding a +1 bashing shield and a +1 arrow catching shield is cheaper than a +1 bashing arrow-catching shield, etc. The other problem is, that if you attack with the shield (via a shield bash), you lose the benefits of that shield's bonus to your AC until your next turn... The only item I'm aware of that grants a shield bonus and lets you attack with it in the same round is the manople, from Sandstorm, and it requires EWP (manople) to gain that benefit.
bhale187 02-27-07, 07:20 PM	Sure you can do it; there's just not much advantage to doing it, short of having an additional item on which to place enchantments, while keeping the costs down, i.e., wielding a +1 bashing shield and a +1 arrow catching shield is cheaper than a +1 bashing arrow-catching shield, etc. The other problem is, that if you attack with the shield (via a shield bash), you lose the benefits of that shield's bonus to your AC until your next turn... The only item I'm aware of that grants a shield bonus and lets you attack with it in the same round is the manople, from Sandstorm, and it requires EWP (manople) to gain that benefit. The "can't do it" was refering to the stacking of the shield ac bonuses
Arvagor 02-27-07, 07:28 PM	The "can't do it" was refering to the stacking of the shield ac bonusesAh, I thought you meant not being able to wield two shields at one time...
Timlagor 02-27-07, 08:01 PM	On your Fighter 12 build. This should be in the LG characters section but anyway... 1) Forget the TWD tree (aren't they a shield bonus anyway?) 2) Take Weapon Specialisation + Weapon Mastery asap 3) TWF isn't actually a good plan unless you have bonus damage to each attack that doesn't multiply (such as sneak attack) 3) You'd be much better off building a Dervish 4) Save a Feat on the EWP and use two weapons ..or spend it on Ovesized TWF and use longswords/scimitars and Power Attack with them. 5) retrain the buckler if you get access to an animated shield. 6) Power Critical isn't terribly impressive either. 7) What makes you think Dex applies to the off-hand? (something special about 2b-swords?)
Gaelforcwynd 02-27-07, 11:06 PM	Like who? :confused: It's quite clearly stated that bonuses of the same type don't stack (with, of course, the exceptions of Dodge and Circumstance bonuses). Two shields each provide a shield bonus, so they don't stack. It's just like casting Mage Armor on a guy in Chain Shirt; the two armor bonuses don't stack. I didn't think circumstance bonuses stacked. I did think that Mage Armour stacked with worn armour though. It should, considering it is a magical force and normal armour is a physical barrier. Two shields should stack, because you would get twice the cover.
Gaelforcwynd 02-27-07, 11:09 PM	7) What makes you think Dex applies to the off-hand? (something special about 2b-swords?) Doesn't Weapon Finesse use your DEX bonus to off-hand attack rolls?
JJeff 02-27-07, 11:20 PM	Weapon finesse allows you to replace your strength bonus with your dex bonus for attacks with a light weapon or a weapon that specifically lists that it can be affected by weapon finesse
copper_wyrmling 02-27-07, 11:47 PM	Weapon finesse allows you to replace your strength bonus with your dex bonus for attacks with a light weapon or a weapon that specifically lists that it can be affected by weapon finesse I'm 99% sure the FAQ says that the off-hand end of a double weapon counts as a light weapon for purposes of weapon finesse (just like it counts as one for purposes of power attack and TWF penalties), but somebody else can look up the entry if they want to check it ;)
Gaelforcwynd 02-28-07, 07:56 AM	I'm 99% sure the FAQ says that the off-hand end of a double weapon counts as a light weapon for purposes of weapon finesse (just like it counts as one for purposes of power attack and TWF penalties), but somebody else can look up the entry if they want to check it ;) Yes the off-hand end of a two-bladed sword is considered a light weapon. A high DEX combined with the Weapon Finesse feat would help offset the penalties to attack incurred by using a two-handed weapon, which the two-bladed sword is considered while being wielded in both hands.
cycloptic_squirrel 02-28-07, 08:58 AM	Umm, have fun with that. If you were to take ALL of the shield feats, a TWF dual shield fighter can be mechanically effective. Lamer than just about anything, too Hey, one of my favorite characters happened to wield a shield and nothing else. Of course this was back in the days of divine shield and broken righteous might, but still... Come to think of it all your former characters are lame too. And your mother dresses you funny. (Not intended to start a flame war, just some poking. ;) Poke. Poke.) I did really like my shield fighter though...
kenobi65 02-28-07, 10:37 AM	I didn't think circumstance bonuses stacked. Generally, they do stack, though it's DM's discretion if they consider two different circumstance bonuses to be coming from similar-enough sources that they shouldn't (e.g., the Circle has decided that metaorg circumstance bonuses don't stack with each other). I did think that Mage Armour stacked with worn armour though. It should, considering it is a magical force and normal armour is a physical barrier. Two shields should stack, because you would get twice the cover. Even if your logic works in those two cases, the rules clearly state they don't stack. Worn armor provides an armor bonus to AC; mage armor provides an armor bonus to AC. Same kind of bonus; doesn't stack. Same with two shields.
UMiskatonic 02-28-07, 04:37 PM	Hey, one of my favorite characters happened to wield a shield and nothing else. This, I can appreciate. Making good use of a non-optimal weapon. Two shields, however, is really not where it's at. My personal lameness ranking is as follows: 4) Small sized longspears 3) Using a shield in each hand 2) Using a lance in each hand, while mounted 1) Animated shields
KarmaInferno 02-28-07, 06:21 PM	Now I'm kinda hankering to make a badass two-shield fighter. Even if you can only claim the shield bonus once, it'd be fun. There's a real-world fighting style that has a twin shield technique, Hung Gar. I've seen Elvis Stojko demonstrating it in a video. It uses two round metal shields with sharpened edges known as Tiger Head shields. I suppose with shield spikes you could roleplay this. Mmm... paired spiked shields with Defending spikes... And here's a quandry. If you claim one shield bonus to Armor Class, the other shield bonus from the second shield does not apply. However, can you still claim any other enchantments on the second shield? Like let's say you have Fire Resistance on the shield that's not being used for defense. Do you get to count it when hit by a fireball? -karma
Munkwunk 02-28-07, 10:36 PM	Like let's say you have Fire Resistance on the shield that's not being used for defense. Do you get to count it when hit by a fireball? Unless there is some FAQ ruling I'm unaware of, yes. Two shield bonuses to AC do not stack. This says nothing about other enchantments which do not offer similar bonuses.
cycloptic_squirrel 03-01-07, 01:36 AM	This, I can appreciate. Making good use of a non-optimal weapon. Two shields, however, is really not where it's at. My personal lameness ranking is as follows: 4) Small sized longspears 3) Using a shield in each hand 2) Using a lance in each hand, while mounted 1) Animated shields Sometimes making this work can be a lot of fun. A clarification, though, are you using lame as describing how well they work in the game, or how well it meshes with what your idea of fantasy is? No problems, either way, we're all allowed to have and encouraged to share them. Animated shield though... you mean wield it without wielding it? How does this work. I am intrigued and wish to subscribe to your newsletter. :)
KarmaInferno 03-02-07, 10:29 AM	Weird, my last post here disappeared... I wonder if you could use two animated shields at the same time. I mean, again, you can only claim one shield bonus to Armor Class, but since animated shields operate exactly as if you were wielding the them with your hands in a normal manner, and you can normally hold two shields, why not? Can you shield bash with an animated shield? I can't find any rules that say you cannot. If so, by the way the Animated enchantment is written, you'd even get a Strength bonus to hit and damage, despite not actually holding the shield. -karma
Gaelforcwynd 03-02-07, 11:10 AM	I mean, again, you can only claim one shield bonus to Armor Class, but since animated shields operate exactly as if you were wielding the them with your hands in a normal manner, and you can normally hold two shields, why not? 'Cause they'd cost too much and you could better spend that money on something more beneficial. :P
KarmaInferno 03-03-07, 01:26 AM	I dunno, if nothing else, it's an extra place to stack on more non-shield-bonus enchantments. And cheaper than trying to stack a bunch of different enchantments on a single piece of armor. -karma
King Kashue 03-03-07, 09:02 PM	This, I can appreciate. Making good use of a non-optimal weapon. Two shields, however, is really not where it's at. My personal lameness ranking is as follows: 4) Small sized longspears Why would this be an issue? A medium sized person wielding a small reach weapon does not have reach. (12/20/06 FAQ p.38) It would just be a normal two weapon situation. It would actually be suboptimal to two short spears, since you'd have extra penalties to hit.