Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SearchingShaman 07-30-04, 05:56 PM	<Update 9-18-04 I'm still looking for a cohort> I'm looking for an interesting cohort build. He will be 11th level to adventure with two clerics, a wizard, a melee, and a cohort TBD, so he can be anything really. I have already considered: Master Thrower throwing 14 shuriken a round as touch attacks, each shuriken can trip, and flame arrow damage on each one. Melee Druid 8/Ftr 1/Warshaper 2 Hits for 1d10 +29 on three attacks at +24/+24/+19 w/ Boots of Speed. Does anyone have some good concepts with class level breakdowns? I am fairly stumped. I could build a "monster", but don't really need to with my group. Thanks.
SirDusk 07-30-04, 11:04 PM	how are you getting the druids attack and damage so high? I'm just intrested I'm playing a 12 druid/1 shifter and I can only get those effects fully buffed and thats buffed with near 8 spells...
SearchingShaman 07-31-04, 03:13 PM	With heavy buffing from his cleric (leader, master?) Yes, this requires heavy buffing to be optimal, but since spikes gives a +2 Enhancment you could get by w/o GMW (see below) Steps: 1) Take off all your equipment. 2) Wildshape to Dire Ape 3) Cast Reduce Animal on yourself, lasts 1 hour/lvl 4) Put equipment back on. You are now Medium Size with base 20 Str, 17 Dex. 5) Add Gauntlets +2, Warshaper +4, and Rage +4. (I meant to say Barb 1 instead of Ftr sorry. I did build Ftr build first) 6) Have the cleric cast Greater Magic Weapon (GMW) on your Greatclub, and either you or cleric cast spikes on weapon. I'm the cleric in this scenario with a Bead of Karma that I paid through the nose to keep, so I get +4 GMW. Damage while raging: 1d10 (Greatclub base) + 15 (Str) + 4 (GMW) + 10 (Spikes if cleric casts on you) or +8 (if you cast spikes on yourself= 1d10+29 To hit bonus: 8 BAB 10 Str 4 GMW 1 Heroes Feast (I cast Extended Heroe's Feast so it lasts all day) 1 Haste (From aforementioned Boots of Speed) =+24/+24/+19 AC (Again this requires heavy buffing, no way around this) 10 base 3 Dex 5 Buckler (One of his feats is Improved Buckler Defense, so he'll retain the AC while swinging his club. Buckler has +4 Magic Vestment 9 (Breastplate w/ Magic Vestment) 4 Natural Armor from Dire Ape form. =31 You could get more from a Ring of Protection or Barkskin, but since he needs to buy a Belt of (can't remember name) from AE&G that gives +2 Constitution Enhancment & Great Fortitude Feat for 10,000 he is strapped for cash. Btw in case you are curious, his feats are Improved Buckler Defense at 3, Natural Spell at 6, and Extra Rage at 9. I don't remember offhand what his two level 1 feats were, but I think I threw in Improved Init for +7 Init mod. Raging 3/day prevents this from being a 1/day pony. HP The only bad part is that you don't get the Warshaper +4 Con to bump your hp. Oh well. This is a very survivable cohort, more so than a lot of PCs I know. You can sack the Dex to 8 since you'll be in Wildshape form all day for extra limburger. You still have a shifter? I am so jealous. I hope this answers your questions. Reduce Animal is your friend.
Mortepierre 08-01-04, 07:53 AM	Originally posted by SearchingShaman 4) Put equipment back on. You are now Medium Size with base 20 Str, 17 Dex. How exactly do you put back all your equipment on if you're in animal shape? Last I checked, an animal isn't exactly equipped to wear the same kind of items as, say, a human being. A cloak maybe, perhaps a belt, and certainly an amulet but beyond that...
Baldaorm 08-01-04, 04:36 PM	You would definetly be allowed to wear 2 rings, an amulet and a cloak. Anything past that would be a call by the judge as to whether you could or could not.
SirDusk 08-01-04, 06:35 PM	1st off your Str mod is +5 not +10 its (stat-10/2=bonus) second once you reduce animal on yourself... you get the minus str = your new size catagory which is like -4 or 8 str... so now you have a 16 str instead of a 20... 3rd your armor wouldnt fit you after you switch into new form... unless there is some rule I dont know about all medium armor fits all medium creatures... as far as the shifter thing... yea I'm at the start of the year going for the 3rd level of Circle of Life for Veluna... I'm worried that the shifter class wont make it to 3.5 but its in 3.0 and its a class we get in the Cirlce of Life meta org... but thank shifter for that 1st level ability... you get to pick and choose what items shift with you as long as you have the body parts to use that item... That high level I perfer the Dire Lion Animal over Dire Ape... Fully buffed I'm at like a str of 39 (27 base animal +4 belt +8 Animal Growth) which is +14 mod... Attack +28 (7 Base +14 str +1 greater magic fang (second version of cast all natrual attacks +1) Natures Favor +6 (luck bonus)) Damage Main Claw +33 (14 str +6 Natures Favor (Luck) +1 Greatre Magic Fang +12 Fires of Purity) Bite and Rakes + 26 (half Str) thats 3 attacks around with out improve grab 5 if I grab and get rakes or add +2 to hit and 5 attacks on a Pounce charage... AC is 30 (10 base -2 size +10 armor (Chitten hide +2 armor (full plate +2 (acks as dragon Hide armor))) + 9 Natrual (4 base +5 barkskin) +1 Dex +2 deflection) Give or take thats My LG Cheese... not as bad as my groups dire cheese weasel 12 attacks around as a standard action doing 4d6 + 40 (give or take on the + damage) as well as an ac pushing near 38 Dan Aka Needoe Triskin in LG Halfin Druid
TallGuy 08-09-04, 09:18 AM	Originally posted by SirDusk That high level I perfer the Dire Lion Animal over Dire Ape... Fully buffed I'm at like a str of 39 (27 base animal +4 belt +8 Animal Growth) which is +14 mod... Except that Animal Growth is a size increase, which doesn't stack with the size increase you got from Wild Shaping, so scratch that +8 to your strength. Which still brings you to a respectable +31 to be sure... How do you put the belt back on after wild shaping? Bas Vermeulen Who's actually glad of that size not stacking rule, because of excesses like this ;)
SirDusk 08-10-04, 10:11 PM	Except that Animal Growth is a size increase, which doesn't stack with the size increase you got from Wild Shaping, so scratch that +8 to your strength. the only exception to this in the LGCS was wild shape... I had to stop a game to point it out to the other players and GM... Wild Shape is like Polymorph but its not the same thing... How do you put the belt back on after wild shaping? Shifter P' Class... I get to pick and choose what items shift with me... I give up a spell casting level but to beable to have my armor, rings, amulets, belts, vest, cloaks to shift and grow to my new form its all good....
TallGuy 08-11-04, 07:43 AM	Originally posted by SirDusk the only exception to this in the LGCS was wild shape... I had to stop a game to point it out to the other players and GM... Wild Shape is like Polymorph but its not the same thing... Wild Shape is the only ability that gets past the 'You can only change to one size category from your original size' stipulation in the LGCS though. The general rule that two increases in size don't stack still applies. You increase in size because of Wild Shape (from medium to large I believe), and at that point Animal Growth cannot increase your size further. You do get all not-size-related benefits from Animal Growth. A quote from the LGCS (first bullet point on polymorph): You can only become a creature of a size class one size larger than your normal form. You may take a form no smaller than fine-sized. If a spell increases your size and another spell tries to increase your size again it fails (the rest of the spell works it just does not change your size). This size restriction does not apply to Wild Shape which has it's own restrictions on size. IMHO the exception made only counts towards the 'one size larger than your normal form', and not to another spell not being able to increase your size further. That is caused by not being able to stack increases. So IMHO, you explained it wrong, and I'll rule as such on tables I GM. Shifter P' Class... I get to pick and choose what items shift with me... I give up a spell casting level but to beable to have my armor, rings, amulets, belts, vest, cloaks to shift and grow to my new form its all good.... Yeah, you even mentioned that. That definately works great :) Bas Vermeulen
Timlagor 08-11-04, 08:32 AM	"When you are in Wild Shape your 'normal form' is your wild shape." Discuss :angel:
TallGuy 08-11-04, 08:42 AM	Originally posted by Timlagor "When you are in Wild Shape your 'normal form' is your wild shape." Discuss :angel: That's not quite true, and I think you know it... Wild Shape does change your type for spells (and yes, Dominate Animal works on Wild Shaped druids), but since Wild Shape is still a magical effect (gets canceled by an anti-magic field for instance), IF you use Wild Shape to become larger than you were, you cannot benefit from spells or effects that increase your size any further. Like bonusses do not stack, and that goes for size increases as well. Bas Vermeulen
qstor 08-11-04, 09:01 AM	Ah the smell of *fine cheese"* Mike
SirDusk 08-11-04, 04:33 PM	If a spell increases your size and another spell tries to increase your size again it fails (the rest of the spell works it just does not change your size). This size restriction does not apply to Wild Shape which has it's own restrictions on size. . to me when I read If a spell increases your size and another spell tries to increase your size again it fails (the rest of the spell works it just does not change your size) its saying enlarge and rightious might cant be used with each other... This size restriction does not apply to Wild Shape which has it's own restrictions on size. Wild shape is a Super Natrual ability... not a spell like ability and thats why it can be surpressed in anti magic or dead magic zones... but yet it cant be dispelled with a dispell magic you are large because of your class ability... which to me is not the same as a spell that increases your size... even so if a judge is or isnt going to let me animal growth myself (which many have not even with the new LGCS) I wont be to upset with all the stuff I get with animal growth which in all honesty is the same as Rightous Might for clerics... it just happens that I, as a druid, have to take a feet to do it on myself unlike clerics that just do it.... the whole DR 10/magic, +4 resist bonus to saves, and natrual armor bonus... so imho I think they wanted druids and clerics in 3.5 to have the same choices to beable to go melee or to cast spells... the diffrence is if a druid goes up against something with DR other then magic they will have to take off those points to each hit... then if this whole thing is going to be like this then I can just say bump that idea... and go 5 druid, 1 war shapper, 7 Shifter and just turn into a 12 headed hydra that gets 12 attacks around as a standard action... move 12 attacks on one person with a 10 foot reach and with 12 attacks of oppertunity against one person... which is my LG groups main fighter whos ac pushs near 40... ahhh the full power of cheese to a broken monster...
TallGuy 08-16-04, 11:11 AM	Just saw an email from Steven Conforti that proves my point. Read his (official) article at the following address: Player Tips: Changing Sizes (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=lg/articles/pt20040713a). This shows the reasoning behind the Circle's rules, the intent, and is official to boot. Regards, Bas Vermeulen Who forgot all about that particular article.... Up till now ;)
TallGuy 08-16-04, 11:14 AM	Originally posted by SirDusk then if this whole thing is going to be like this then I can just say bump that idea... and go 5 druid, 1 war shapper, 7 Shifter and just turn into a 12 headed hydra that gets 12 attacks around as a standard action... move 12 attacks on one person with a 10 foot reach and with 12 attacks of oppertunity against one person... which is my LG groups main fighter whos ac pushs near 40... ahhh the full power of cheese to a broken monster... Except that monster isn't as broken as you seem to think, as while it's special ability gives it Combat Reflexes even though it doesn't qualify for it with it's 12 Dex, it still can only make one AoO per provoking action. So yes, it has 12 AoOs, but when I charge it, it can only hit me ONCE. See the rules on Attacks of Opportunity in the PHB, and the feat Combat Reflexes. Bas Vermeulen Buster of Cheese.
Sieylianna 08-16-04, 12:05 PM	Originally posted by TallGuy Except that monster isn't as broken as you seem to think, as while it's special ability gives it Combat Reflexes even though it doesn't qualify for it with it's 12 Dex, it still can only make one AoO per provoking action. So yes, it has 12 AoOs, but when I charge it, it can only hit me ONCE. See the rules on Attacks of Opportunity in the PHB, and the feat Combat Reflexes. The problem isn't when you charge it, but when it charges you and gets 12 attacks (one per head). A hydra can move and full attack. Ed
TallGuy 08-16-04, 04:05 PM	Originally posted by Sieylianna The problem isn't when you charge it, but when it charges you and gets 12 attacks (one per head). A hydra can move and full attack. Ed Oh definately. But everyone and his dog is faster than a Hydra. Keep moving, and it won't be able to charge, then fire away with arrows and area of effect spells. It's just that some GMs think (and the SirDusk implied) that a Hydra gets 12 AoO on one opportunity, and that's just not true. Bas Vermeulen
SirDusk 09-07-04, 06:54 PM	Oh definately. But everyone and his dog is faster than a Hydra. Keep moving, and it won't be able to charge, then fire away with arrows and area of effect spells. It's just that some GMs think (and the SirDusk implied) that a Hydra gets 12 AoO on one opportunity, and that's just not true. Bas Vermeulen Wrong, A hydra per the rules gets 1 AoO against a single person per head that the hydra has... is clearly stated under the monster discription... and a Hydra's move is 40, 50 with Longstrider up 1st level spell... 30 in heavy armor size and 4 legs... 40 with Longstrider up... so its not as easy to out run a hydra as you may think... plus on a charge I get 12 attacks to your 1...
TallGuy 09-09-04, 08:46 AM	Wrong, A hydra per the rules gets 1 AoO against a single person per head that the hydra has... is clearly stated under the monster discription... and a Hydra's move is 40, 50 with Longstrider up 1st level spell... 30 in heavy armor size and 4 legs... 40 with Longstrider up... so its not as easy to out run a hydra as you may think... plus on a charge I get 12 attacks to your 1... A Hydra has a movement rate of 20. Just checked the Monster Manual, so I'm quite confident of that. Longstrider will get that up to 30, but that's it. A Hydra is also quite large, so blocking a charge shouldn't be a problem either. On the 1 AoO per head, It says, and I quote: "Feats: A hydra's Combat Reflexes feat allows it to use all its heads for attacks of opportunity." (MM Pg 156) That's all it says on those, so Combat Reflexes is the thing that rules here. Combat Reflexes allows you to take as many AoO as you have dex bonus, and in the hydra's case it allows it to use as many AoO as it has heads. The general rule that one can only make one AoO per opportunity still applies. Another quote: "attack of opportunity: A single extra melee attack per round that a combatant can make when an opponent within reach takes an action that provokes attacks of opportunity. Cover prevents attacks of opportunity." (PHB Pg 305) And one more: "Combat Reflexes ... If four goblins move out of the character's threatened squares, he can make one attack of opportunity each against three of the four. You can still only make one attack of opportunity per opportunity. ..." (PHB Pg 92) You're absolutely right on the twelve attacks on a charge, and that can be quite effective, but is also quite easily blocked by moving in such a way as to deny you your charge because of obstructions in the charge path. Bas Vermeulen
obungen 09-10-04, 06:28 PM	If you want a combat brute of a different flavor, check this out: Barbarian1/Wizard3/Fighter2/Spellsword4 Half-Orc, stat line: 17 14 14 13 8 6 to start, bump STR at 4 and INT at 8 to boost spell DC. Level up in order of: B/W/F/F/W/W/SpellswordX4 Half orc ignores XP penalty from Barbarian. Feats, in order that I would take them: Exotic (Spiked Chain), Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip, Dodge, Power Attack, Karmic Strike. What good is all this junk: Using the Spellsword channel feat, put a ray of enfeeblement or a spell with good damage into your weapon. At 10th level you have 3rd level spells, so a 5d6 fireball isn't bad...if you plan to use damage a lot swap out the Spiked Chain feat (use a Guisarme instead if tripping) and take the Practiced Caster feat so that your fireball or lightning does 9d6. Maybe cast enlarge, maybe not, depending on situation and whether or not you want to trip. Rage and do full Power Attack, charge in, hit with touch attack (touch is easy even with power attack on), trip, smack with free attack from improved trip (+4 to hit for prone), and get off the spell effect you have stored (I like Ray of Enfeeble to drop STR, which can cut into a big critter's hit/damage rolls pretty quickly...and make it easier to trip again later on). If the critter decides to attack back, hit him for free with an AoO using Karmic Strike, although enlarge with a chain most times means you are out of their reach. At level 10, enlarged, with +1 weapon: To Hit: +16 Trip modifier: +15 (+4 large, +4 Imp Trip, +7 STR) Damage: 2d6+11 (2d6+27 with 8 pt Power Attack) Consider that it's 11d6+27 if you go the Practiced Caster route and have a Lightning bolt loaded...that would have an average roll of 66 damage and force a Fort save for massive damage. It's a move action to load another spell (if I remember right) so if you really need to lay down the law, channel in another spell and put more smack down the next turn. In your case, you might switch out some of the trip effect with other feats, and use that Greatclub with Spikes that you were talking about to bump the damage even more, give him Bull's Strength, and I think that puts it at 2d8+9d6+39, average 79 damage with all the goods. Why play this character over a regular fighter? Flexibility. Not many characters can hang with the front line fighters, or stay back and cast worth-while spells like Fireball, See Invis, Glitterdust, etc. Also, if you go back to taking Wiz levels at 11th or switch to Eldrich Knight, you'll get to 4th level spells and be able to use Polymorph instead of Enlarge. Karmic Strike is a lot better than people think, particularly from a psychological standpoint: once a GM learns that he's going to get bonked with an AoO when he swings, your character becomes a bad target for his melee mobs. It's just too bad you can't get an AoO for every attack he takes (a full attack action only gives one "opportunity"). Best character ever? Nope. Interesting and fun? I think so. :o) JW
SearchingShaman 09-18-04, 09:42 PM	<bump> I'm hijacking my thread back. I would like some more cohort suggestions. 11th level cohort in a party with 2 clerics, a wizard, a melee bastard sword tank, and another cohort TBD. Thanks.
TallGuy 09-19-04, 04:42 AM	<bump> I'm hijacking my thread back. I would like some more cohort suggestions. 11th level cohort in a party with 2 clerics, a wizard, a melee bastard sword tank, and another cohort TBD. Thanks. Looks to me you're missing a dedicated rogue. Trapfinding and/or sneak attacks galore, and fits nicely into the niche the party is missing. Second Cohort maybe another fighter, unless one of the clerics fills that role. Bas Vermeulen
interwyrm 09-22-04, 08:29 PM	For the hydra charging thing... Take the cheetah's speed feat from complete divine. For the cost of one expenditure of wild shape, you get a speed of 50 for an hour... and for one round you can charge up to 500 feet. Can you visualize it? Much sillier is the eagles flight feat... you grow feathery wings... A huge 12 headed hydra with silly bird wings flying around at 60... That's ridiculous. Anyways... I was thinking about the shifter and these feats. At level ten, you get unlimited greater wild shape. Since you can convert wild shape and greater wild shape back and forth... you now can always have poison bites (serpent's venom) can make a full attack on a charge no matter what shape (lion's pounce) and can fly or run. It's pretty silly. They will have to take it into account when/if they port the shifter to 3.5. I really love the class... and I'm worried that they are going to severely gimp it. Take a look at the shapechange spell. If the shifter doesn't give options that are at least as good as that spell, then it becomes virtually useless.
Cardinal Teplin 09-23-04, 08:33 AM	They will have to take it into account when/if they port the shifter to 3.5. I really love the class... and I'm worried that they are going to severely gimp it. I suspect they won't convert it at all, at which point my character becomes totally untenable. <sigh> >Take a look at the shapechange spell. If the shifter doesn't give options that are at least as good as that spell, then it becomes virtually useless. Shifter never has before. It's still useful, largely because it doesn't run out. I could see it get them in epic progrssion, which would only be 4 levels behind wizards and druids... >Much sillier is the eagles flight feat... you grow feathery wings... A huge 12 headed hydra with silly bird wings flying around at 60... That's ridiculous. No, that's merely strange. A gelcube with wings, charging foward 600 feet in a round, engulfing everything in it's path, now that's ridiculous. Which of course is the perceived problem with shifter. Such a combination, or your hydra exampe, is no more broken that a fighter who can fly, but game designers tend to fear anything that doesn't have clearly defined limits, and the ability to mimic any monster is a very fuzzy boundry. There are many ways to balance the shifter, such as proper enforcement of familairity rules, but I suspect the east way out will be taken, they'll simply ditch the class.
SearchingShaman 12-13-04, 05:00 PM	My main character reached 14th level in the past few months, so break out your 12th level cohort builds. :)
beyowulf 12-14-04, 12:05 AM	Looks to me you're missing a dedicated rogue. Trapfinding and/or sneak attacks galore, and fits nicely into the niche the party is missing. Second Cohort maybe another fighter, unless one of the clerics fills that role. Bas Vermeulen Definetly, Do not underestimate the ability to tumble around an opponent with another party member for flanking bonus and sneak attack damage is not be sniffed at.. Lets not lot forget lots of skill points Spot, Listen, Tumble, Diplomacy, Gather Information, etc. Really, your party needs Rogue.
King Kashue 12-14-04, 02:19 AM	My main character reached 14th level in the past few months, so break out your 12th level cohort builds. :) Ranger 11 / Rogue 1...Insane spot and listen checks, tracking, trap finding with the insane search check, and 6 attacks per round with possibilities for 1d6 sneak on every one...