Post/Author/DateTime	Post
jfh33 08-05-04, 11:32 AM	Yeah, I'm not kidding. I want to build a half-orc paladin who worships Celestian. Call me crazy. I figured his ability scores would be: Str 17 Dex 10 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 12 I figured on taking Power Attack as the first feet. He would wield the Orc Double Ax and wear whatever big armor he could afford. Any thoughts or suggestions on what direction I could take with this charecter build? (I am much more used to building arcane casters, so this is a bit of a stretch for me.) thanks
SirDusk 08-05-04, 06:27 PM	I thought it was 28 points for stats in LG if thats the case then I'd go with Str: 14 = 6 Dex: 12 = 4 Con: 14 = 6 Int: 12 = 4 Wis: 10 = 2 Chr: 14 = 6 After Racial Str 16 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 10 Chr 12 by the time you get to spell casting levels you should beable to get a +2 or 4 wis item... thought it will hurt cuz Wis and Con take up same spot... never know might get lucky and find some other slot for Con... but I'd say just go up to 2nd level Paladin to get Divine Grace and switch to a more Melee Fighter or a P Class that dont give spell casting levels... but if you wanted spell casting then lower dex by 2 and raise wis by 2 to a 12 wis after racial mods...
RobWreck 08-06-04, 12:06 PM	Actually Sir Dusk, his numbers are right... you gave him a 12 dex instead of the 10 that he listed. Regarding the overall build though... personally, "well-rounded" characters don't fare as well in LG as those that are more focused. I'd lower the Dex & Int each by 2, spending those points to raise the Charisma. Charisma is such a HUGE part of being a Paladin (Smite, Lay-on Hands, Divine Grace savings throw bonus, Turning Attempts - which allow those yummy turning-related feats), that I'd want it to be more than just a +1. Sure, having a neg 1 to Dex would hurt AC & initiative, but the Reflex save would be off-set by your Paladin save bonus, your AC isn't going to be heavily reliant on Dex, and with no Dex bonus to AC, losing initiative isn't going to effect it much. Besides, with so many bad guys having Improved Init and/or high dex modifiers, initiative isn't a battle most people can win regularly (unless that's what you're based around). As for the intelligence hit, Paladins get a LOW amount of skill points as is... is the difference between 1 point per level vs 2 points per level really going to make a difference with where you're going? If you're looking at a skill-intensive prestige class, then maybe... if you're going straigth Paladin, you can just pick 1 or 2 skills and split your skill points between them. I like the 17 Strength... it can go to 18 @ 4th level, then 8th & 12th can bump either your Con, Wis or Cha... Hope that helps... Rob PS Half-orc Paladins CAN be effective characters...One of Keoland's oldest meta-orgs was founded by a half-orc Paladin that's now on the verge of 15th level.
jfh33 08-06-04, 12:35 PM	Robwreck, are you suggesting something along the lines of this: Str: 17 (+3) Dex : 8 (-1) Con: 12 (+1) Int: 8 (-1) Wis: 12 (+1) Cha: 14 (+2) or maybe Str: 16 (+3) Dex : 8 (-1) Con: 12 (+1) Int: 10 (0) Wis: 12 (+1) Cha: 14 (+2) Do I really want to have two negative ability scores? I knew this was going to be tough.
Timlagor 08-06-04, 02:47 PM	It's called Min-Maxing. If you want to powergame you do it. If you don't then by all means play a balanced character. Personally I don't like odd numbers at the start. I understand whysome people do but I think they are misguided (unless you need a specific number for a specific feat and don't want to spend any more that than).
RobWreck 08-06-04, 03:08 PM	While I wouldn't quite call it "min-maxing" (as we all know, the proper way to min-max a half-orc involves at least 2 levels of barbarian, 4 levels of fighter, then season to taste w/ Tribal Protector & Holy Liberator :-) ), it is (imo) optimized to give you the best attribute advantages. While I agree with Timlagor that odd-attributes aren't that great, I offset it with the presumed 4th lvl stat bumb going into Strength, 8th & 12th lvl bumps both going into either Str, Con, Cha or Wis. I'd prolly choose Charisma... You guessed correctly the first time with what I was proposing, although your alternative isn't bad... personally, I would rather see the attribute points put into what your character is supposed to be good at. If I'm reading you correctly, you're a front-line fighter-type Paladin, so your important attributes would be... Str - for attack & damage, it just gets better with the 2-hnded Power Attack. Con - for hit points, a must-have for most frontline fighter-types Cha - for the nifty Paladin abilities (otherwise, why not play a straight Lawful Good fighter?) followed by Wisdom - for the Paladin spells leaving Dex and Int as the 2 least important ones. It's really up to you... some players look to squeeze every last ounce out of the game rules, regardless of what makes sense roleplay-wise. Others decide that ultimately being a whole person is their goal, with the details of WHO their charater is taking much higher precedence over WHAT their character is. I think the best ones are the players that find a middle ground, striking a balance between roleplay and effectiveness. But it's what YOU are looking for that's important. Can you see yourself playing a strong and sturdy but slightly clumsy, friendly but a bit slow, defender of law and good? Is that what you want to play? Either make the "character" and assign the attributes to match, or make the "attributes" and assign the character to match. Whatever you're more comfortable with... RobWreck
SirDusk 08-06-04, 03:58 PM	yes Chr is nice to have but to spend 10 points to only get a 14 to me is not worth it... and to have a neg number in an important stat even if its only -1 to ac and -1 to init... that could be the diffrence between a hit and death... with all Living games Con is the most important stat for any charactor... what good is a 17 str if you are dead? what good is the ability to do the unlimited wack amole combo if dead? I wouldnt go anything less then a 14 con on any Living charactor... but with the stat block I gave you could dump the dex to 10 and jump the wis to 12... the real question is are you going to be a caster paladian or are you just wanting the divine grace and be a tank... like I said befor I'd say if you want to be the tank type of paladian get the DG and go fighter for the feets... IMHO
RobWreck 08-06-04, 04:32 PM	Sir Dusk raises a good point... if you're willing to forgo the ability to cast spells (until you buy a periapt of wisdom), you can bump up your con to a 14 and get the extra hit point each level. Of course, if you like the Paladin spells (and there are some sweet ones), then keep the 12 Wis...
Sieylianna 08-06-04, 04:53 PM	I'd suggest Str: 16 (+3) Dex: 10 (0) Con: 14 (+2) Int 10 (0) Wis: 12 (+1) Cha: 12 (+1) Plan on wearing heavy armor and being an adeqauate fighter. You'll want to start purchasing stat increase items when you can afford it. Ed
SirDusk 08-06-04, 04:56 PM	you could always just get a Ion Stone +2 wis so you dont lose your neck slot so you can get a +6 Con amulet...
jfh33 08-06-04, 05:16 PM	It was my understanding that a Paladin can't multi-class. My half-orc could not take two ranks of fighter because he would take an XP penalty at higher level, and couldn't keep adding fighter ranks because he would lose his palidan ranks.
SirDusk 08-06-04, 06:25 PM	Originally posted by jfh33 It was my understanding that a Paladin can't multi-class. My half-orc could not take two ranks of fighter because he would take an XP penalty at higher level, and couldn't keep adding fighter ranks because he would lose his palidan ranks. yea you are correct sort of... once you leave paladin you can never go back unless you goto a class that lets you go back to paladin... as far as the fighter thing... not sure if Half Orc is Fighter or Barbarian as the primary class... if its Fighter then my suggestion is good if its not then... as long as you are with in a level from each other then you will not get exp hit... so you could be 2 paladin/3 fighter then go up in a P class... and not take a EXP hit as P Classes dont count towards the level restriction...
Sieylianna 08-06-04, 10:40 PM	A half-Orc paladin is marginal to begin with, you don't want to multiclass out of paladin. Your favored class is barbarian, but paladin and barbarian aren't compatible in alignment. Another option is to play a half-orc barbarian/cleric. You could act like a paladin (finding a suitable deity could be a challenge) avoiding the stereotypical half-orc barbarian behaviour. I've been toying with the idea of a half-orc cleric/sorceror/dragon disciple for LG. If the Dragon deities were allowed for PCs, I'd have done it already, but so far I haven't been able to come up with a deity who makes sense. (I also have 4 PCs, so it's not a pressing matter). Ed
SirDusk 08-10-04, 10:19 PM	you have to be Chaotic to be a Holy Liberator... Barbarian/Holy Liberator and you get all the paladin abilitys though I am not sure if this P'class will be in 3.5.... but I really dont see a reason to go more then 2 levels Paladin as a Half Orc... to many negs for that +2 str... just (mhop)
SgtHulka 08-11-04, 11:00 AM	I, too, am building a Half-Orc Paladin, and went with the following (though I may bump down Dex and bump up Str): Str 17 (8 points) Dex 12 (4 points) Con 14 (6 points) Int 6 (0 points) Wis 12 (4 points) Cha 12 (6 points) First, there is no effective difference between an Int of 6 and of 8, since with both you get 4 skill points at first level and 1 skill point every level thereafter. That is, unless Int-based skills are really important to you, in which case you shouldn't be playing a half-orc. Second, if you buy your Cha up beyond 12, IMHO, you're wasting the advantage of being a half-orc. Yes, you save points on buying up strength, but you're just spending those saved points on Charisma, anyway, so what's the point? Furthermore, yes, Charisma is important to a Paladin, but from what I've read it appears you can do as much with temporary charisma boosts (like Eagle's splendor) as you could with regular charisma. That isn't the case with Wisdom, for example. If you boost your wisdom with Owl's wisdom, you still aren't going to be able to prepare high level spells and what not. I wanted a 12 Dex because I figure I'll be wearing full plate ASAP, with a Dex bonus of +1, so I want the 12 Dex for maximum armor class. Also, Ride is Dex-based, so why not get a good one in early. And, finally, if you decide you want to go for dex-based feats (unlikely) it only takes one enhancement to qualify. I wanted a 14 Constitution because it's just the way I play. I love Constitution. I'd have an 18 if I could, but with a half-orc 14 is about the highest I can justify. And I went with a 17 Str because I wanted the 12 Dex. Otherwise I'd go with 18 Str. It seems silly to have less than a 16 Str for a Half-Orc, because then you're wasting your +2 Str bonus. As for first-level feat, I decided to go with Mounted Combat. It's kind of pointless, but Paladins get very few feats, and I figured this way I get ride-by at third level, and spirited charge and sixth, or else trample at third and then some of those nifty complete warrior charisma-based feats at sixth and beyond. Mounted feats might not be the most effective in the world, since you can't take a horse indoors, but I wanted to make my half-orc as stereotypicaly "paladin" as possible. So at 4th level I'd bump Str to 18, at 8th Level Wisdom to 13, and at 12th level Wisdom to 14. That way I can cast 4th level spells by 15th level. But let's be honest, I'll probably never make it that far. In the meantime, I'd be concentrating on trying to acquire charisma-enhancing magical items. Note that I'm fairly new to 3rd edition and I don't have complete warrior so take all the above advice with a grain of salt. I was playing with a guy a few weeks ago who had a Wood Elf Paladin with a 6 Int, and he pointed out something that I just loved -- at 8th level and beyond his warhorse's Intelligence is gonna be higher than his is. That means that us 6 Int. Paladins, once we hit 8th level, can start mitigating our low intelligences by asking our warhorses for advise. As someone else pointed out, Half-Orcs make crummy paladins, so it's more for the humor value, anyway. But still, especially because you're coming out of the gate with some disadvantages, you want to be as efficient as possible with your points.