Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thyaxsis 02-23-05, 11:10 AM	I understand the concept behind why this is in place so that power gamers cannot bring in a 1st lvl character and have him advance to 4 lvl in 3 games and I am cool with that, but here is my question: I am fairly new to playing and have found a group that will let me join but they all play APL 10 to 12, while I am still lvl 6. In the last 3 adventures we have played I have held my own and contributed to the success of the mission, even in battles (thank god for a high AC), but I only get 1/2 the XP and GP which is less than if I had played at APL 6, my actual level. I get approximatley 775 XP, when APL 6 is 900 XP yet have stuck my neck out agaist foes that are 3 times harder than those at 6th lvl. Why do I not get my APLs worth of experience and gold rather instead of being penalized for being a new comer to the game? Thanks!
javven 02-23-05, 11:55 AM	The rules exist for everyone. The only things you could do about the rules from the standpoint of an organizer / oversight body would be: 1. Allow more flex in the rules. This, I think would result in some pretty cheeseball parties. I don't think you are but... they're definately out there. I recently played APL 8 with my CLR 11. Do you have any idea what a Harm spell does to a single-monster APL8 encounter? We were sorta desperate to get the table made, tho and it was either play or 4 people go home empty handed so we played. I definately deserved half XP. Think about it - 6th level spells at an APL that's figured to include 6th LEVEL characters at the table? w00t! 2. Eliminate the restrictions. See number 1 above and multiply resultant cheeseballs by a factor of 5. 3. Make exceptions. This would at a minimum be unfair to those who felt like staying within the core rules guidelines and frankly it'd smack of favoritism. I can't -stand- favoritism. I probably can't spell it either, sorry. Remember, it's not always about you :)
kenobi65 02-23-05, 12:27 PM	I think, in the case of "playing up", the assumption that's being made (for good or ill) is that the lower-level PC won't be able to contribute as much to the success of the party as his higher-leveled compatriots. Thus, the XP penalty. The unfortunate part is that the reduced XP award winds up being *less* than you'd get if you actually played at a more-appropriate APL for your character. But, again, I think the assumption is that the lower-level PC is going to be shielded by the higher-level PCs.
Thyaxsis 02-23-05, 12:55 PM	I should have made it clearer that I was talking about playing up only. I agree about the playing down side of things, but in this case I lost out on XP for my APL only because I was unable to find a table at my APL. I can also agree about the being protected, but you still have to make your saves and stay alive. Granted I contributed a little more cause of the way my character is set up. I guess I would rather see those playing up get their APL XP, and those playing down remain with the half XP because of their dominance of a game.
King Kashue 02-23-05, 04:02 PM	I should have made it clearer that I was talking about playing up only. I agree about the playing down side of things, but in this case I lost out on XP for my APL only because I was unable to find a table at my APL. I can also agree about the being protected, but you still have to make your saves and stay alive. Granted I contributed a little more cause of the way my character is set up. I guess I would rather see those playing up get their APL XP, and those playing down remain with the half XP because of their dominance of a game. "Getting your APL" is actually a good idea...Someone should suggest that to the Circle...It would eliminate the situation where a Lvl1 playing in an APL 10 (rare and suicidal, I know) would get as much as a Lvl 7, where the lvl 7 would actually do something in the mod, but recieve no more xp...I know for a fact that my Lvl 7 tank is more capable in a APL 10 mod than many 9s & 10s...
javven 02-23-05, 04:21 PM	Unfortunately abuses in the system will prevent this. Maybe you should get your APL XP but only if you live. What about mods where lower APL's tougher than the higher one? It happens, due to 'variations' in monster CR and how tough they actually are for average PC's to beat. Party makeup matters, to be sure but as an example a recent mod involved 'surprise round, reflex save vs. 18 dice of damage' at I think APL 8. APL 10 was a straight up hack and slash with maybe some elemental damage if you weren't careful - but all in later rounds. Sorry but uh, 18 dice is just killer at that APL, and no prep or warning (maybe a v. difficult spot check - 30+ range). That's 60 points or so average. Saving both times will take that down to 30, but still it's nasty. Then they melee with you! It also works the other way. Example situation, at APL 4 your encounter is a troll, in a mod all about trolls. APL 10 in the mod about trolls is one troll barbarian, one human mage and a few regular old trolls thrown in to make your EL nice and tidy. EL 12 should be doable for the APL 10 party. They really ought to be able to deal with needing fire pretty easilly. Trolls at that point become a story item as well as a way to put meat on the table without having lots of class levels. A good hack n slash. However, at APL 4 your probable lack of fire damage is a real part of how difficult it is to defeat the encounter and you should be rewarded accordingly. You should also be penalized for hanging out with the higher level mages and fighters who do this kind of damage. It's just an example, but it shows that there's more to CR, XP and APL than just numbers. One last example I can think of just now is Circle of Death. Play at the wrong APL and your character could very well die (no save) in a situation that the mod author didn't intend to be especially difficult for a given APL. Circle and it's ilk are all excellent reasons to play your APL. The fact that you can't is unfortunate but as I've said before it's very tough to make fair exceptions. Might I suggest you look into some travel? Two conventions where you played every or nearly every mod at your APL would help even out the level difference quite quickly. Also, if you've got fair or tough judges attrition will kill off some of your higher levels and they'll get knocked back. I've died myself - more than a few times. It happens.
oroborous 02-23-05, 08:02 PM	I'm a victim of the playing down problem. I moved from Des Moines Iowa, where there was a mod every Saturday within a 2 hour drive to Albuquerque New Mexico, where there is a game every other Friday, but during the time I work. So when I'm able to beg someone there to run a Saturday game, I end up taking my 11th level to an APL 8 table and get half. The RPGA-ABQ group only started up a year ago, so I'm hopeful that I'll get to play in some APL 10 games by the end of the year. It just breaks my heart to see that neato stuff in the APL 10 & 12 column get crossed out by a judge's pen, but I must say the last time I played it was an orc mod, where my character has orc as a favored enemy and my AC was high enough that they had to get better than average rolls to hit. With a 17-20 crit range and an extra d6 elemental damage and 3 attacks I can see why I get half, but I wish I could get to pick one thing off of the higher APL lists that I could have access to.
Sieylianna 02-23-05, 10:23 PM	I should have made it clearer that I was talking about playing up only. I agree about the playing down side of things, but in this case I lost out on XP for my APL only because I was unable to find a table at my APL. I can also agree about the being protected, but you still have to make your saves and stay alive. Granted I contributed a little more cause of the way my character is set up. I guess I would rather see those playing up get their APL XP, and those playing down remain with the half XP because of their dominance of a game. But did you have to make your saves or did your judge take it easy on you and concentrate fire on the higher levels? That's the problem, there is no way to know whether your PC was actually at risk. I received half XP for playing down a couple years ago when my PC would have been permanently dead and unrecoverable in an alternate dimension, if I didn't have die bump certs (before they went away). I wasn't dominating anything and the PCs who were playing up were certainly doing their part. (That was one of those bad experiences where we'd put together a party for a specific APL and the organizers added someone at the last minute who insisted on playing one of his PCs who threw the APL off. I think 2 PCs received full XP that module. Ed