Centaurs, bonus feats, and you [Archive] - Wizards Community

Centaurs, bonus feats, and you [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Sceadeau
07-28-05, 12:39 PM I am running Blood on Bright Sands, and have a player who is telling me his centaur will have 2 feats at level 1.

He points to the section in the sands document that says:

"A character progressing in a monster class gains feats and ability score increases according to Table 2-5 of the Player's handbook. That table also limits their maximum ranks in class and cross-classed skills"

First of all, there is no 2-5, so I'm assuming they mean 3-2. And if that's the case, then they would get feats as first, third, 6th, in addition to the ones they get from class levels (1,4).

Is this the case? Are they really supposed to get feats at 1,1,3,4,6? That seems to go against the LA rules and common sense. But, I can see why he'd argue it. The game is tonight and would love either an official ruling, or a link to an official ruling, or barring that, random interpretations from the peanut gallery.
scon40
07-28-05, 01:08 PM He points to the section in the sands document that says:

"A character progressing in a monster class gains feats and ability score increases according to Table 2-5 of the Player's handbook. That table also limits their maximum ranks in class and cross-classed skills"

First of all, there is no 2-5, so I'm assuming they mean 3-2. And if that's the case, then they would get feats as first, third, 6th, in addition to the ones they get from class levels (1,4).

Is this the case? Are they really supposed to get feats at 1,1,3,4,6? That seems to go against the LA rules and common sense. But, I can see why he'd argue it. The game is tonight and would love either an official ruling, or a link to an official ruling, or barring that, random interpretations from the peanut gallery.

See page 99 of Races of the Wild, entry about feats. Centaur monster class gives feats at levels 1 and 4 only ... then they advance in feats as per table 3-2.
Sceadeau
07-28-05, 01:15 PM The section i quoted said it was an exception to how the centaurs are done in races of the wild. I know how centaurs should be done, but according to that document, they are being done differently.
scon40
07-28-05, 01:45 PM The section i quoted said it was an exception to how the centaurs are done in races of the wild. I know how centaurs should be done, but according to that document, they are being done differently.

The centaur cert one needs to play a centaur clearly leaves that section out when pointing out exceptions to the Races of the Wild version. So, I am sure you are supposed to follow the feat progression in Races, not the PHB one, until you finish your monster class levels.
Sceadeau
07-28-05, 01:56 PM I know what the cert says, but i also know what the CAMPAIGN DOCUMENTATION says, and it seems as though I should be following the campaign documentation in this regard. The campaign documentation states, in no uncertain terms:

"A heulenear character starts at first level with the centaur monster class from Races of the Wild, with the following changes"

"A character progressing is a monster class gains feats and ability score increases according to Table 2-5 of the Player's handbook. That table also limits their maximum ranks in class and cross-classed skills"

So, I know where you are coming from, but according to the Rules As Written (which I _have_ to follow as a DM for LG), he gets both the feats from table 3-2 (first, third, sixth level, etc) and the feats from the Races of the Wild centaur class (1,4).

I know what you are saying makes sense, but it's not supported in the documentation.
scon40
07-28-05, 02:05 PM "A character progressing is a monster class gains feats and ability score increases according to Table 2-5 of the Player's handbook. That table also limits their maximum ranks in class and cross-classed skills"

So, I know where you are coming from, but according to the Rules As Written (which I _have_ to follow as a DM for LG), he gets both the feats from table 3-2 (first, third, sixth level, etc) and the feats from the Races of the Wild centaur class (1,4).

I know what you are saying makes sense, but it's not supported in the documentation.

An AR is documentation as well. You have three sources of information and two of them agree. As a DM, if the rules aren't clear, you make the best decision you can and contact the LG admin (Triads and Circle) if there is still confusion afterwards. In this case, the sourcebook is not written clearly enough to indicate what was intended. Use the Races rules for feats.
Sceadeau
07-28-05, 02:28 PM The problems comes not with my ruling but with the character generation itself. None of these players would play centaurs if the rule was feats only at 1 and 4. So it's less of a DM's descretion and more of a "what is the rule here?" I cannot take the Races of the Wild at face value, as the campaign docs clearly overrule them, but the AR documentation is a valid point.

This is their ONE chance to play a character from this region, and the rules are unclear. It isn't fair to them to create characters thinking it is one way, when it is in fact something else entirely. Which is why I asked for an "official" source saying which way it goes.
kenobi65
07-28-05, 02:42 PM Which is why I asked for an "official" source saying which way it goes.

Well, Mr. Conforti's about as official as it gets.
Sceadeau
07-28-05, 02:57 PM Thanks, that should do then.
Kheldren
07-29-05, 08:11 AM I will shortly be DMing Blood on Bright Sands for a group and I know that one of my PCs will be playing a centaur - hence this thread is of interest to me.
Unfortunately I don't fully understand the answers given and would appreciate it if someone could tell me if my understanding is correct.

My understanding is:
A centaur character gains feats at hit die (i.e. charcter level) 1, 3, 6 as any other character.
A centaur also gains bonus feats from the centaur "class" levels at 1 and 4.

The point being playing a centaur is similar to a fighter hence the bonus feats (but much less than the fighter's 1, 2, 4, 6) as they don't gain many other class features...

Have I understood this correctly?
qstor
07-29-05, 08:46 AM My understanding is:
A centaur character gains feats at hit die (i.e. charcter level) 1, 3, 6 as any other character.
A centaur also gains bonus feats from the centaur "class" levels at 1 and 4.

The point being playing a centaur is similar to a fighter hence the bonus feats (but much less than the fighter's 1, 2, 4, 6) as they don't gain many other class features...

Have I understood this correctly?

Steve conforti said above "See page 99 of Races of the Wild, entry about feats. Centaur monster class gives feats at levels 1 and 4 only ... then they advance in feats as per table 3-2."

Mike
Iswald
08-03-05, 09:29 AM ...

My understanding is:
A centaur character gains feats at hit die (i.e. charcter level) 1, 3, 6 as any other character.
A centaur also gains bonus feats from the centaur "class" levels at 1 and 4.

...

Have I understood this correctly?

Not quite. Centaurs get feats at levels 1 and 4. Past level 6, they then follow the normal progression for stat boosts and feats. A centaur would get feats at levels 1, 4, 9, 12, and 15. They would get stat bumps at levels 10 and fourteen. They would not get the normal stat bumps at levels 4, 8, 12, and 16.

Edit:
I should also add that a centaur's max skill ranks will be behind two levels as well since it doesn't increase at level 3 or 5. This means that a character would have to be level 12 to have 13 ranks in a skill for some PrCs vs only level 10 normally.
wagnert
08-08-05, 12:46 PM My understanding is:
A centaur character gains feats at hit die (i.e. charcter level) 1, 3, 6 as any other character.
A centaur also gains bonus feats from the centaur "class" levels at 1 and 4.

The point being playing a centaur is similar to a fighter hence the bonus feats (but much less than the fighter's 1, 2, 4, 6) as they don't gain many other class features...

Have I understood this correctly?

Those two statements are actually redundant and refer to the same thing. A centaur monster class does gain a feat at levels 1 and 4. But that is because all characters gain 1 feat at 1 hit die and at 3 hit die, which is levels 1 and 4 for a huelenaer centaur.

Since a centaur will be 2 levels behind most other PC races in hit die versus character levels, the centaur should thus gain feats at levels 1 and 4 as noted above, then again at levels 8, 11, 14, etc (every three) starting at character level 8 when they reach 6 hit die. From level 7 and up they gain hit die and skill points at the same rate as other races, but are actually 2 levels behind in actual hit die and skill points.

Does that clarify the mechanics better?
Kheldren
08-09-05, 04:32 AM Thank-you wagnert and Iswald - you clarified it nicely (it also helped that I went and looked in myRoW at which point it all became clear. However this should certianly settle it for anyone else who looks on these boards. :)
Iswald
08-14-05, 03:55 AM Since a centaur will be 2 levels behind most other PC races in hit die versus character levels, the centaur should thus gain feats at levels 1 and 4 as noted above, then again at levels 8, 11, 14, etc (every three) starting at character level 8 when they reach 6 hit die. From level 7 and up they gain hit die and skill points at the same rate as other races, but are actually 2 levels behind in actual hit die and skill points.

Would you actually gain feats starting at level 8 or 9? Centaurs are supposed to complete their 6 levels as a centaur before gaining feats normally (RotW, pg 99). It wouldn't affect how many feats they get, just when they get them.
Neb Rybel
08-20-05, 04:30 AM Here is how the Centaur thing works. The "Feats" listed at 1st and 4th level, are actually the Feats a PC gets at 1st and 3rd Hit Die.

And the thing about feats and ability increases is saying, count your Hit Dice and then consult the table. I.E. A Centuar 6/Fighter 2 would have 3 Feats from levels, 2 bonus Fighter feats, and 1 Stat boost because it has 6 HD.

The missing Hit Dice aren't a huge loss, the +8 Strength, +4 Dexterity, +4 Constitution, +2 Wisdom, and +3 Natural Armor go a long way to beefing up the PC.
TallGuy
08-25-05, 04:41 AM I agree with most of the above, with one exception... The stat-bump at 4 HD. At 4 HD, you are a regular, run of the mill centaur with 4 HD, and it seems to mee that the stat-bump is already included in the huge bonusses you get from that.

But that's just me. If Stephen or someone else from the circle could confirm or deny that, that would be great.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sceadeau 07-28-05, 12:39 PM	I am running Blood on Bright Sands, and have a player who is telling me his centaur will have 2 feats at level 1. He points to the section in the sands document that says: "A character progressing in a monster class gains feats and ability score increases according to Table 2-5 of the Player's handbook. That table also limits their maximum ranks in class and cross-classed skills" First of all, there is no 2-5, so I'm assuming they mean 3-2. And if that's the case, then they would get feats as first, third, 6th, in addition to the ones they get from class levels (1,4). Is this the case? Are they really supposed to get feats at 1,1,3,4,6? That seems to go against the LA rules and common sense. But, I can see why he'd argue it. The game is tonight and would love either an official ruling, or a link to an official ruling, or barring that, random interpretations from the peanut gallery.
scon40 07-28-05, 01:08 PM	He points to the section in the sands document that says: "A character progressing in a monster class gains feats and ability score increases according to Table 2-5 of the Player's handbook. That table also limits their maximum ranks in class and cross-classed skills" First of all, there is no 2-5, so I'm assuming they mean 3-2. And if that's the case, then they would get feats as first, third, 6th, in addition to the ones they get from class levels (1,4). Is this the case? Are they really supposed to get feats at 1,1,3,4,6? That seems to go against the LA rules and common sense. But, I can see why he'd argue it. The game is tonight and would love either an official ruling, or a link to an official ruling, or barring that, random interpretations from the peanut gallery. See page 99 of Races of the Wild, entry about feats. Centaur monster class gives feats at levels 1 and 4 only ... then they advance in feats as per table 3-2.
Sceadeau 07-28-05, 01:15 PM	The section i quoted said it was an exception to how the centaurs are done in races of the wild. I know how centaurs should be done, but according to that document, they are being done differently.
scon40 07-28-05, 01:45 PM	The section i quoted said it was an exception to how the centaurs are done in races of the wild. I know how centaurs should be done, but according to that document, they are being done differently. The centaur cert one needs to play a centaur clearly leaves that section out when pointing out exceptions to the Races of the Wild version. So, I am sure you are supposed to follow the feat progression in Races, not the PHB one, until you finish your monster class levels.
Sceadeau 07-28-05, 01:56 PM	I know what the cert says, but i also know what the CAMPAIGN DOCUMENTATION says, and it seems as though I should be following the campaign documentation in this regard. The campaign documentation states, in no uncertain terms: "A heulenear character starts at first level with the centaur monster class from Races of the Wild, with the following changes" "A character progressing is a monster class gains feats and ability score increases according to Table 2-5 of the Player's handbook. That table also limits their maximum ranks in class and cross-classed skills" So, I know where you are coming from, but according to the Rules As Written (which I _have_ to follow as a DM for LG), he gets both the feats from table 3-2 (first, third, sixth level, etc) and the feats from the Races of the Wild centaur class (1,4). I know what you are saying makes sense, but it's not supported in the documentation.
scon40 07-28-05, 02:05 PM	"A character progressing is a monster class gains feats and ability score increases according to Table 2-5 of the Player's handbook. That table also limits their maximum ranks in class and cross-classed skills" So, I know where you are coming from, but according to the Rules As Written (which I _have_ to follow as a DM for LG), he gets both the feats from table 3-2 (first, third, sixth level, etc) and the feats from the Races of the Wild centaur class (1,4). I know what you are saying makes sense, but it's not supported in the documentation. An AR is documentation as well. You have three sources of information and two of them agree. As a DM, if the rules aren't clear, you make the best decision you can and contact the LG admin (Triads and Circle) if there is still confusion afterwards. In this case, the sourcebook is not written clearly enough to indicate what was intended. Use the Races rules for feats.
Sceadeau 07-28-05, 02:28 PM	The problems comes not with my ruling but with the character generation itself. None of these players would play centaurs if the rule was feats only at 1 and 4. So it's less of a DM's descretion and more of a "what is the rule here?" I cannot take the Races of the Wild at face value, as the campaign docs clearly overrule them, but the AR documentation is a valid point. This is their ONE chance to play a character from this region, and the rules are unclear. It isn't fair to them to create characters thinking it is one way, when it is in fact something else entirely. Which is why I asked for an "official" source saying which way it goes.
kenobi65 07-28-05, 02:42 PM	Which is why I asked for an "official" source saying which way it goes. Well, Mr. Conforti's about as official as it gets.
Sceadeau 07-28-05, 02:57 PM	Thanks, that should do then.
Kheldren 07-29-05, 08:11 AM	I will shortly be DMing Blood on Bright Sands for a group and I know that one of my PCs will be playing a centaur - hence this thread is of interest to me. Unfortunately I don't fully understand the answers given and would appreciate it if someone could tell me if my understanding is correct. My understanding is: A centaur character gains feats at hit die (i.e. charcter level) 1, 3, 6 as any other character. A centaur also gains bonus feats from the centaur "class" levels at 1 and 4. The point being playing a centaur is similar to a fighter hence the bonus feats (but much less than the fighter's 1, 2, 4, 6) as they don't gain many other class features... Have I understood this correctly?
qstor 07-29-05, 08:46 AM	My understanding is: A centaur character gains feats at hit die (i.e. charcter level) 1, 3, 6 as any other character. A centaur also gains bonus feats from the centaur "class" levels at 1 and 4. The point being playing a centaur is similar to a fighter hence the bonus feats (but much less than the fighter's 1, 2, 4, 6) as they don't gain many other class features... Have I understood this correctly? Steve conforti said above "See page 99 of Races of the Wild, entry about feats. Centaur monster class gives feats at levels 1 and 4 only ... then they advance in feats as per table 3-2." Mike
Iswald 08-03-05, 09:29 AM	... My understanding is: A centaur character gains feats at hit die (i.e. charcter level) 1, 3, 6 as any other character. A centaur also gains bonus feats from the centaur "class" levels at 1 and 4. ... Have I understood this correctly? Not quite. Centaurs get feats at levels 1 and 4. Past level 6, they then follow the normal progression for stat boosts and feats. A centaur would get feats at levels 1, 4, 9, 12, and 15. They would get stat bumps at levels 10 and fourteen. They would not get the normal stat bumps at levels 4, 8, 12, and 16. Edit: I should also add that a centaur's max skill ranks will be behind two levels as well since it doesn't increase at level 3 or 5. This means that a character would have to be level 12 to have 13 ranks in a skill for some PrCs vs only level 10 normally.
wagnert 08-08-05, 12:46 PM	My understanding is: A centaur character gains feats at hit die (i.e. charcter level) 1, 3, 6 as any other character. A centaur also gains bonus feats from the centaur "class" levels at 1 and 4. The point being playing a centaur is similar to a fighter hence the bonus feats (but much less than the fighter's 1, 2, 4, 6) as they don't gain many other class features... Have I understood this correctly? Those two statements are actually redundant and refer to the same thing. A centaur monster class does gain a feat at levels 1 and 4. But that is because all characters gain 1 feat at 1 hit die and at 3 hit die, which is levels 1 and 4 for a huelenaer centaur. Since a centaur will be 2 levels behind most other PC races in hit die versus character levels, the centaur should thus gain feats at levels 1 and 4 as noted above, then again at levels 8, 11, 14, etc (every three) starting at character level 8 when they reach 6 hit die. From level 7 and up they gain hit die and skill points at the same rate as other races, but are actually 2 levels behind in actual hit die and skill points. Does that clarify the mechanics better?
Kheldren 08-09-05, 04:32 AM	Thank-you wagnert and Iswald - you clarified it nicely (it also helped that I went and looked in myRoW at which point it all became clear. However this should certianly settle it for anyone else who looks on these boards. :)
Iswald 08-14-05, 03:55 AM	Since a centaur will be 2 levels behind most other PC races in hit die versus character levels, the centaur should thus gain feats at levels 1 and 4 as noted above, then again at levels 8, 11, 14, etc (every three) starting at character level 8 when they reach 6 hit die. From level 7 and up they gain hit die and skill points at the same rate as other races, but are actually 2 levels behind in actual hit die and skill points. Would you actually gain feats starting at level 8 or 9? Centaurs are supposed to complete their 6 levels as a centaur before gaining feats normally (RotW, pg 99). It wouldn't affect how many feats they get, just when they get them.
Neb Rybel 08-20-05, 04:30 AM	Here is how the Centaur thing works. The "Feats" listed at 1st and 4th level, are actually the Feats a PC gets at 1st and 3rd Hit Die. And the thing about feats and ability increases is saying, count your Hit Dice and then consult the table. I.E. A Centuar 6/Fighter 2 would have 3 Feats from levels, 2 bonus Fighter feats, and 1 Stat boost because it has 6 HD. The missing Hit Dice aren't a huge loss, the +8 Strength, +4 Dexterity, +4 Constitution, +2 Wisdom, and +3 Natural Armor go a long way to beefing up the PC.
TallGuy 08-25-05, 04:41 AM	I agree with most of the above, with one exception... The stat-bump at 4 HD. At 4 HD, you are a regular, run of the mill centaur with 4 HD, and it seems to mee that the stat-bump is already included in the huge bonusses you get from that. But that's just me. If Stephen or someone else from the circle could confirm or deny that, that would be great.