Champion of Corellon Larethian Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Champion of Corellon Larethian Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TWG_Prometheus
12-21-06, 09:49 AM Just to check, Paladin/Champion of Corellon Larethian, despite being mentioned as a viable progression path, is impossible due to the class requirement of worshipping Corellon Larethian precluding a Lawful Good alignment, correct?
Alpha_Nerd
12-21-06, 11:48 AM uh oh Bob, it looks like someone divided by zero here in Races of the Wild.
jstorrie
12-21-06, 12:51 PM This is indeed true. A level of ex-Paladin does help you meet the BAB and skill requirements of the class, so the blurb text isn't completely false, but no, it's not a very good way to qualify at all. The most reasonable entry, in my mind, is probably something like Hexblade2/Ftr2/Ranger1/Wildrunner2 (with 12 or 14 Cha) or Rgr1/Brb1/Ftr2/Rgr1/Wildrunner2 (with dump Cha).
ranagrande
12-21-06, 12:59 PM Actually, it does work rather well, and you don't even have to be an ex-Paladin to do it. Here's the trick: Paladins aren't required to serve a specific deity in Living Greyhawk. So don't. Wait until after you're done gaining Paladin levels to become a follower of Corellon Larethian, and you're all set.
ShinAkuma2
12-21-06, 01:14 PM Is there something stopping you from being a Paladin of Corellan?

As I recall, a Paladin doesn't have to follow a LG deity. Otherwise, there'd be no Paladins of Kord, or St Cuthbert, or anyone besides Heironeous and some no-name Greyhawk deities.
CrystalBlue
12-21-06, 01:29 PM I can't remember where, but it does say that if you are a Paladin or Cleric of a diety, you MUST be within one step on either axis to worship them. So, you can have paladins of people like Ehlonna, Pelor, Cuthbert...I've even seen a paladin of Weejas, if you can believe it. O.o

But, yes, the PrC would break your paladinhood because you have to be within one step of them. If he was a NG god, it wouldn't be a problem. I'm sure the authors intended to let you keep your paladin abilities and cross that alignment chasm, but they didn't write it in. Maybe there should be an errata for that. You know...a GOOD errata for once... Either that, or allow for Champions of other dieties that match him. Like they do for Radiant Servant and Shinning Blade.
jstorrie
12-21-06, 03:02 PM There aren't any elven deities that would be appropriate for this - they're essentially all chaotic, even Sehanine Moonbow. No dice. Champion of Ehlonna might make some theoretical sense, but then why wouldn't humans be able to take the class? I don't see the Circle budging on this one.
ShinAkuma2
12-21-06, 04:16 PM I can't remember where, but it does say that if you are a Paladin or Cleric of a diety, you MUST be within one step on either axis to worship them.

This is true for a Cleric, but I don't think I've ever seen it for a Paladin. Is this an LG-only rule?
TWG_Prometheus
12-21-06, 04:20 PM Deities document. Maybe places in standard D&D books, but I don't know where off the top of my head. It's no big deal...I might not have gone Paladin even if it was possible. Just wanted to make sure that there wasn't some cool trick I was missing.
TWG_Prometheus
12-21-06, 04:23 PM Is there something stopping you from being a Paladin of Corellan?

As I recall, a Paladin doesn't have to follow a LG deity. Otherwise, there'd be no Paladins of Kord, or St Cuthbert, or anyone besides Heironeous and some no-name Greyhawk deities.

The deity doesn't have to be Lawful Good, and Paladins in LG don't have to have a deity at all. If they DO choose a Deity, however, it has to be a deity within one step. St. Cuthbert works. You won't see a Paladin of Kord, however.

(Or shouldn't.)
Howie23
12-21-06, 04:34 PM I can't remember where, but it does say that if you are a Paladin or Cleric of a diety, you MUST be within one step on either axis to worship them. So, you can have paladins of people like Ehlonna, Pelor, Cuthbert...I've even seen a paladin of Weejas, if you can believe it. O.o

But, yes, the PrC would break your paladinhood because you have to be within one step of them. If he was a NG god, it wouldn't be a problem. I'm sure the authors intended to let you keep your paladin abilities and cross that alignment chasm, but they didn't write it in.

The requirement on deity serving paladins being within one step is in the deities document. You can be a generic non-deity serving elven Paladin. But, to be a Champion of Corellon, you have to be a deity serving Paladin of Corellon, by the first note of the deity document. That gives you the one-step alignment problem.

This is LG-specific and stems from LG rules. In another campaign, a Paladin/Champion of Corellon could work. The references to Paladins in the Corellon entry apply elsewhere, but not to LG.

Attempts to circumvent this, such as saying that the Champion requirement to "worship Corellon" does not trigger the "requires a specific deity" clause of the deity document, have generally not been persuasive when discussed on http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/lgchardiscussion/ .

David
ShinAkuma2
12-21-06, 04:37 PM Ah, I should have known better...

It seems rather silly to me that a Chaotic deity cannot have a Paladin...

I guess you could fake it by saying, "I'm a Paladin of competition, strength, and courage..."
clannagh
12-21-06, 07:41 PM [QUOTE=ShinAkuma2;10974319]
It seems rather silly to me that a Chaotic deity cannot have a Paladin...
QUOTE]

well in some ways the idea of a character dedicated to enforcing the laws of a god who doesnt believe in laws is a wee bit odd
jstorrie
12-21-06, 07:54 PM I wouldn't be surprised if some elf-heavy region around has a lawful sect of Corellon tucked away somewhere, though. It might not be completely impossible to do this in LG. I just doubt it's possible (or worth the effort).
Lomiat
12-21-06, 08:56 PM This is indeed true. A level of ex-Paladin does help you meet the BAB and skill requirements of the class, so the blurb text isn't completely false, but no, it's not a very good way to qualify at all. The most reasonable entry, in my mind, is probably something like Hexblade2/Ftr2/Ranger1/Wildrunner2 (with 12 or 14 Cha) or Rgr1/Brb1/Ftr2/Rgr1/Wildrunner2 (with dump Cha).

I'm personally fond of the Two-Weapon Champion of Corellon Larethian: Rgr6/Swa3/Ftr2/Wildrunner2/Champion2

Wood-elf: Str 16 Dex 17 Con 12 Int 12 Wis 8 Cha 10

You might not get your full STR bonus to your off-hand weapon, but you get your full DEX and INT bonus to it. Plus, upgrading your damage is cheaper. For 36,000 gp, you can get a Belt of Giant Strength +6. Or for 24,000gp, you can get a Belt +4, Gloves of Dexterity +2, and a Headband of Intellect +2--all of which add to your damage.

At 12th level, with the above items, the character looks something like:
Str 20, Dex 20, Con 14 (amulet, too), Int 16, Wis 8, Cha 10
with Primal Scream = Str 22, Dex 26
Primary hand (+1 elven thinblade) +20/15/10 for 1d8+18
off-hand (+1 elven lightblade) +19/14 for 1d6+15

All still very easily buffed by spells...
ShinAkuma2
12-21-06, 10:58 PM well in some ways the idea of a character dedicated to enforcing the laws of a god who doesnt believe in laws is a wee bit odd

Paladins don't need to enforce law.

"...a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents."

Nothing about Corellen's or Kord's ideals are counter to these requirements. In fact, (not knowing as much about Corellen) an exemplar of Kord would follow these ideals, except possibly the legitimate authority bit. Still, in Kord's eye, "legitimate authority" might simply mean the current WWE World Champion, or something.

Paladins are LAWFUL Good, not LEGAL Good. There's an important distinction to be made there.
jstorrie
12-21-06, 11:08 PM That argument may carry some weight at home games, but the LG rules are clear that Paladins must serve a LG, LN, or NG deity.
Mattastrophic
12-22-06, 02:14 AM The other way to look at it is that the Champions are Corellon's equivalent to Paladins. It's worked very well for my own Rog7/Ftr2/Champion (fun build, btw!), who sees himself as a 'paladin' of Corellon Larethian. Corellon doesn't have Paladins, he has Champions.

-Matt
Jay_Ibero_911
12-22-06, 09:57 PM You know...you could make it work after the fact....Take however much paladin you want, then take however much CoCL you want...then change back to a Paladin-able deity with atonement, you don't lose any of your CoCL abilities unless you turn evil...Sure the Paladin levels would be pretty useless for a few levels...But it works...
ShinAkuma2
12-23-06, 12:23 AM That argument may carry some weight at home games, but the LG rules are clear that Paladins must serve a LG, LN, or NG deity.

The argument doesn't only apply to home games, or the deities served. I'm not arguing for Paladins of Chaotic deities.

Too many people confuse "Lawful" and "Legal".

"No, you're Lawful, you can't sneak into someone's house."
"No, you're Lawful, you can't use Sleight of Hand to steal the important bauble back when the guy's not looking."

BS. Being Lawful is about being meticulous and using carefully thought plans while following some sort of set of internalized rules (ie I would never hit a woman, I revere the elderly, etc are Lawful thoughts). It doesn't have to have anything to do with following the law as it is written, though that is an easy way to be Lawful.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TWG_Prometheus 12-21-06, 09:49 AM	Just to check, Paladin/Champion of Corellon Larethian, despite being mentioned as a viable progression path, is impossible due to the class requirement of worshipping Corellon Larethian precluding a Lawful Good alignment, correct?
Alpha_Nerd 12-21-06, 11:48 AM	uh oh Bob, it looks like someone divided by zero here in Races of the Wild.
jstorrie 12-21-06, 12:51 PM	This is indeed true. A level of ex-Paladin does help you meet the BAB and skill requirements of the class, so the blurb text isn't completely false, but no, it's not a very good way to qualify at all. The most reasonable entry, in my mind, is probably something like Hexblade2/Ftr2/Ranger1/Wildrunner2 (with 12 or 14 Cha) or Rgr1/Brb1/Ftr2/Rgr1/Wildrunner2 (with dump Cha).
ranagrande 12-21-06, 12:59 PM	Actually, it does work rather well, and you don't even have to be an ex-Paladin to do it. Here's the trick: Paladins aren't required to serve a specific deity in Living Greyhawk. So don't. Wait until after you're done gaining Paladin levels to become a follower of Corellon Larethian, and you're all set.
ShinAkuma2 12-21-06, 01:14 PM	Is there something stopping you from being a Paladin of Corellan? As I recall, a Paladin doesn't have to follow a LG deity. Otherwise, there'd be no Paladins of Kord, or St Cuthbert, or anyone besides Heironeous and some no-name Greyhawk deities.
CrystalBlue 12-21-06, 01:29 PM	I can't remember where, but it does say that if you are a Paladin or Cleric of a diety, you MUST be within one step on either axis to worship them. So, you can have paladins of people like Ehlonna, Pelor, Cuthbert...I've even seen a paladin of Weejas, if you can believe it. O.o But, yes, the PrC would break your paladinhood because you have to be within one step of them. If he was a NG god, it wouldn't be a problem. I'm sure the authors intended to let you keep your paladin abilities and cross that alignment chasm, but they didn't write it in. Maybe there should be an errata for that. You know...a GOOD errata for once... Either that, or allow for Champions of other dieties that match him. Like they do for Radiant Servant and Shinning Blade.
jstorrie 12-21-06, 03:02 PM	There aren't any elven deities that would be appropriate for this - they're essentially all chaotic, even Sehanine Moonbow. No dice. Champion of Ehlonna might make some theoretical sense, but then why wouldn't humans be able to take the class? I don't see the Circle budging on this one.
ShinAkuma2 12-21-06, 04:16 PM	I can't remember where, but it does say that if you are a Paladin or Cleric of a diety, you MUST be within one step on either axis to worship them. This is true for a Cleric, but I don't think I've ever seen it for a Paladin. Is this an LG-only rule?
TWG_Prometheus 12-21-06, 04:20 PM	Deities document. Maybe places in standard D&D books, but I don't know where off the top of my head. It's no big deal...I might not have gone Paladin even if it was possible. Just wanted to make sure that there wasn't some cool trick I was missing.
TWG_Prometheus 12-21-06, 04:23 PM	Is there something stopping you from being a Paladin of Corellan? As I recall, a Paladin doesn't have to follow a LG deity. Otherwise, there'd be no Paladins of Kord, or St Cuthbert, or anyone besides Heironeous and some no-name Greyhawk deities. The deity doesn't have to be Lawful Good, and Paladins in LG don't have to have a deity at all. If they DO choose a Deity, however, it has to be a deity within one step. St. Cuthbert works. You won't see a Paladin of Kord, however. (Or shouldn't.)
Howie23 12-21-06, 04:34 PM	I can't remember where, but it does say that if you are a Paladin or Cleric of a diety, you MUST be within one step on either axis to worship them. So, you can have paladins of people like Ehlonna, Pelor, Cuthbert...I've even seen a paladin of Weejas, if you can believe it. O.o But, yes, the PrC would break your paladinhood because you have to be within one step of them. If he was a NG god, it wouldn't be a problem. I'm sure the authors intended to let you keep your paladin abilities and cross that alignment chasm, but they didn't write it in. The requirement on deity serving paladins being within one step is in the deities document. You can be a generic non-deity serving elven Paladin. But, to be a Champion of Corellon, you have to be a deity serving Paladin of Corellon, by the first note of the deity document. That gives you the one-step alignment problem. This is LG-specific and stems from LG rules. In another campaign, a Paladin/Champion of Corellon could work. The references to Paladins in the Corellon entry apply elsewhere, but not to LG. Attempts to circumvent this, such as saying that the Champion requirement to "worship Corellon" does not trigger the "requires a specific deity" clause of the deity document, have generally not been persuasive when discussed on http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/lgchardiscussion/ . David
ShinAkuma2 12-21-06, 04:37 PM	Ah, I should have known better... It seems rather silly to me that a Chaotic deity cannot have a Paladin... I guess you could fake it by saying, "I'm a Paladin of competition, strength, and courage..."
clannagh 12-21-06, 07:41 PM	[QUOTE=ShinAkuma2;10974319] It seems rather silly to me that a Chaotic deity cannot have a Paladin... QUOTE] well in some ways the idea of a character dedicated to enforcing the laws of a god who doesnt believe in laws is a wee bit odd
jstorrie 12-21-06, 07:54 PM	I wouldn't be surprised if some elf-heavy region around has a lawful sect of Corellon tucked away somewhere, though. It might not be completely impossible to do this in LG. I just doubt it's possible (or worth the effort).
Lomiat 12-21-06, 08:56 PM	This is indeed true. A level of ex-Paladin does help you meet the BAB and skill requirements of the class, so the blurb text isn't completely false, but no, it's not a very good way to qualify at all. The most reasonable entry, in my mind, is probably something like Hexblade2/Ftr2/Ranger1/Wildrunner2 (with 12 or 14 Cha) or Rgr1/Brb1/Ftr2/Rgr1/Wildrunner2 (with dump Cha). I'm personally fond of the Two-Weapon Champion of Corellon Larethian: Rgr6/Swa3/Ftr2/Wildrunner2/Champion2 Wood-elf: Str 16 Dex 17 Con 12 Int 12 Wis 8 Cha 10 You might not get your full STR bonus to your off-hand weapon, but you get your full DEX and INT bonus to it. Plus, upgrading your damage is cheaper. For 36,000 gp, you can get a Belt of Giant Strength +6. Or for 24,000gp, you can get a Belt +4, Gloves of Dexterity +2, and a Headband of Intellect +2--all of which add to your damage. At 12th level, with the above items, the character looks something like: Str 20, Dex 20, Con 14 (amulet, too), Int 16, Wis 8, Cha 10 with Primal Scream = Str 22, Dex 26 Primary hand (+1 elven thinblade) +20/15/10 for 1d8+18 off-hand (+1 elven lightblade) +19/14 for 1d6+15 All still very easily buffed by spells...
ShinAkuma2 12-21-06, 10:58 PM	well in some ways the idea of a character dedicated to enforcing the laws of a god who doesnt believe in laws is a wee bit odd Paladins don't need to enforce law. "...a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents." Nothing about Corellen's or Kord's ideals are counter to these requirements. In fact, (not knowing as much about Corellen) an exemplar of Kord would follow these ideals, except possibly the legitimate authority bit. Still, in Kord's eye, "legitimate authority" might simply mean the current WWE World Champion, or something. Paladins are LAWFUL Good, not LEGAL Good. There's an important distinction to be made there.
jstorrie 12-21-06, 11:08 PM	That argument may carry some weight at home games, but the LG rules are clear that Paladins must serve a LG, LN, or NG deity.
Mattastrophic 12-22-06, 02:14 AM	The other way to look at it is that the Champions are Corellon's equivalent to Paladins. It's worked very well for my own Rog7/Ftr2/Champion (fun build, btw!), who sees himself as a 'paladin' of Corellon Larethian. Corellon doesn't have Paladins, he has Champions. -Matt
Jay_Ibero_911 12-22-06, 09:57 PM	You know...you could make it work after the fact....Take however much paladin you want, then take however much CoCL you want...then change back to a Paladin-able deity with atonement, you don't lose any of your CoCL abilities unless you turn evil...Sure the Paladin levels would be pretty useless for a few levels...But it works...
ShinAkuma2 12-23-06, 12:23 AM	That argument may carry some weight at home games, but the LG rules are clear that Paladins must serve a LG, LN, or NG deity. The argument doesn't only apply to home games, or the deities served. I'm not arguing for Paladins of Chaotic deities. Too many people confuse "Lawful" and "Legal". "No, you're Lawful, you can't sneak into someone's house." "No, you're Lawful, you can't use Sleight of Hand to steal the important bauble back when the guy's not looking." BS. Being Lawful is about being meticulous and using carefully thought plans while following some sort of set of internalized rules (ie I would never hit a woman, I revere the elderly, etc are Lawful thoughts). It doesn't have to have anything to do with following the law as it is written, though that is an easy way to be Lawful.