Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tapelib 02-19-06, 11:36 PM	Hi. My second LG character is a Dim Forest wood elf, who was charged by Corellon to protect the children of Oerth. To this end, I created a High AC, low hp frontline warrior who planned to be the best bodyguard on Oerth. Str 19, Dex 18, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 10, 50hp, AC 27 He didn't do much damage, but with the Devoted Defender prestige class, he contributed by defending the lower AC, higher damage fighters or wizards of the party, or the NPC victims from the bad guys. He reached 4th level of Devoted Defender, and then the conversion to the Complete Books made Devoted Defender go away. ----------- So I used the change to try to rebuild him in a different way. I sold off most of his equipment, much of it at half gold, to buy the few items he would need in animal form. Using access, I got wild armor, a wild shield, and an amulet of Wisdom +2. Str 17, Dex 18, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 14 (16 with amulet), Cha 10, 50hp, AC 23 (elf) I even saved up 10 AR's worth of gold, to buy the only other magic item I could use, a Cloak of Protection +5. With these, I could fill the role he had before, to be the frontline, tough enough to survive, and protect others. And now he has changed from (at my current 12th level) AC: 24(29 with Barkskin) HP: 121 Full ATK: +23 for 2d6+20 +Trip (with GM Fang and Nature's Favor) Fort: +21 Ref: +12 Will: +14 to AC: 23*(28 with Barkskin) HP: 61 Full ATK: +16 for 2d6+13 +Trip Fort: +15 Ref: +7 Will: +8 *Question: do Ioun Stones get absorbed when you wildshape? If they do, I lose this AC. ------------ Right now, he does not have enough hit points to survive the frontline, high enough saves to resist APL 12 spells, and enough spells (at DC 12+ spell level) to be an effective backline spellcaster. I have played this character for four years, through 70 AR's. I have planned what I could, given the ever-changing rules. I fully intend to play him until he retired at 16th level, or until he died defending the innocent. What would you suggest I do now? I cannot see Living Greyhawk changing the new hit point rule. I doubt they will make an exception to the Amulets and Cloaks not absorbing. Anyone got any ideas?
Mortepierre 02-20-06, 03:57 AM	Your AC only lost 1 pt. You still do decent dmg and your saves are nothing to laught at. Switch from "frontline warrior" to "spellcaster defender". In short, become the second line of defense. Have a spellcaster cast Bear's Endurance on you just before you wildshape, and you'll be fine. Add a False Life from the wizard, or a Vigor from the cleric and you'll do even better. It's my experience at high APL that "true" spellcasters usually hang out at the back and thus (often) become the priority target of specialized enemies (fiends with teleportation mostly). They need protection and that can be you.
Sieylianna 02-20-06, 07:46 AM	What would you suggest I do now? I cannot see Living Greyhawk changing the new hit point rule. I doubt they will make an exception to the Amulets and Cloaks not absorbing. I'd hold on until after Winter Fantasy and see whether the Circle makes an LG specific ruling. Changing the way wild shape works has a huge impact on the druid's main class feature. I'd like to see some sort of limited rebuild option, but I'm not holding my breath. Otherwise, my PC may end up semi-retired. Ed
tapelib 02-20-06, 11:12 AM	Your AC only lost 1 pt. You still do decent dmg and your saves are nothing to laught at. Switch from "frontline warrior" to "spellcaster defender". In short, become the second line of defense. Have a spellcaster cast Bear's Endurance on you just before you wildshape, and you'll be fine. Add a False Life from the wizard, or a Vigor from the cleric and you'll do even better. It's my experience at high APL that "true" spellcasters usually hang out at the back and thus (often) become the priority target of specialized enemies (fiends with teleportation mostly). They need protection and that can be you. Actually, as far as the Amulet, Cloak, and Ioun Stone are concerned, I noticed from other posts that I can just take them off beforehand, then use my Warshaper ability to shape my Dire wolf paw into a Claw, and drop them around my neck, or set the stone spinning. It means I'm not doing it in combat, but I can prep the items I can wear in animal form. So that's not as bad as I thought. I will probably be more back-line, or a flank buddy for my companion, instead of being another major warrior. Good advice, Mortpierre.
tapelib 02-20-06, 11:14 AM	I'd hold on until after Winter Fantasy and see whether the Circle makes an LG specific ruling. Changing the way wild shape works has a huge impact on the druid's main class feature. I'd like to see some sort of limited rebuild option, but I'm not holding my breath. Otherwise, my PC may end up semi-retired. Ed Great advice, Sieylianna. I take it from your post that you're in a similar position?
Sieylianna 02-20-06, 12:19 PM	Great advice, Sieylianna. I take it from your post that you're in a similar position? Yes. My primary retired at 18th level on December 31st. My secondary is a 10th, almost 11th level druid, who will be seriously impacted by the rule changes. After that, I have a 6th level that I don't enjoy playing and a bunch of 2nd and 3rds. So I'm pretty much in a position where there isn't a reason to stay in the campaign if the character becomes unplayable. Ed
King Kashue 02-20-06, 05:48 PM	Of course, the HP issue is still under discussion, and since they already errata-ed the errata, the whole thing might not be finished... And the argument for HP change is a convincing one in my mind, since Bear's endurance adds HP for a consitution change, why doesn't shifting to a new form? And while I understand the goal of removing references to Polymorph (and think it was a great idea, since it left it open to confusion and exploitation), it seems like this all could have been done much better. If half the people reading the errata can see the holes and new issues caused, and do it within hours of it being released, it seems as if the folks writing the darn thing should have seen them before releasing it...
Sceadeau 02-20-06, 06:55 PM	Of course, the HP issue is still under discussion, and since they already errata-ed the errata, the whole thing might not be finished... And the argument for HP change is a convincing one in my mind, since Bear's endurance adds HP for a consitution change, why doesn't shifting to a new form? And while I understand the goal of removing references to Polymorph (and think it was a great idea, since it left it open to confusion and exploitation), it seems like this all could have been done much better. If half the people reading the errata can see the holes and new issues caused, and do it within hours of it being released, it seems as if the folks writing the darn thing should have seen them before releasing it... I'm not sure if half the people looking at it now caught all the problems. Remember, the minute they release it for public viewing, there are many people out there who will peruse the document for self interest. With that many people poring over it (looking for specific nerfs to their own builds), you are bound to find people who speak up and say "hey, what about <foo>?" As they speak up, others see it, and the effect snowballs. I don't have a druid past 4th level. I see this change as a major one that will hopefully be addressed in some way in the next dispel confusion. A rebuild may be in order, or an additional errata to the errata...I'm willing to be patient (but that's again because I don't have a primary who is severely affected by this) to see where this goes. When it's all finalized, well..back to the screaming and yelling :)
Herrbard 02-20-06, 07:22 PM	Of course, the HP issue is still under discussion, and since they already errata-ed the errata, the whole thing might not be finished... Where is the errata-ed errata available? (After I printed them all, of course) :rolleyes:
King Kashue 02-20-06, 08:24 PM	Where is the errata-ed errata available? (After I printed them all, of course) :rolleyes: It's the currently available one, they removed the old version... The issue dealt with was the issue of what happens with your items when you shift...I don't like the fix, because previously, items you couldn't use in the new form dropped to the ground, clearly an issue, so they changed it, now ALL items, even ones you could use, get absorbed, which means items such as amulets and cloaks, which could previously have been used, are not, and which leaves the Master of Many Forms in the position of being buck naked if s/he turns into a humanoid, giant, fey creature... :rolleyes:
clannagh 02-20-06, 08:39 PM	It's the currently available one, they removed the old version... The issue dealt with was the issue of what happens with your items when you shift...I don't like the fix, because previously, items you couldn't use in the new form dropped to the ground, clearly an issue, so they changed it, now ALL items, even ones you could use, get absorbed, which means items such as amulets and cloaks, which could previously have been used, are not, and which leaves the Master of Many Forms in the position of being buck naked if s/he turns into a humanoid, giant, fey creature... :rolleyes: The interesting thing about the current version is that creatures that may have been able to abuse the old rules by wearing huge amounts of gear (such as dire apes) still can as they have hands to pick it all up again. Its only creatures that can wear minimal gear anyway (bears etc) that need to have another character put it back on again for them once they wild shape.
Casebier 02-21-06, 02:51 PM	AC: 24(29 with Barkskin) HP: 121 Full ATK: +23 for 2d6+20 +Trip (with GM Fang and Nature's Favor) Fort: +21 Ref: +12 Will: +14 to AC: 23*(28 with Barkskin) HP: 61 Full ATK: +16 for 2d6+13 +Trip Fort: +15 Ref: +7 Will: +8 *Question: do Ioun Stones get absorbed when you wildshape? If they do, I lose this AC. GM Fang should still work, just cast it on your bite before wild shaping (or during the wild shape, if you have the Natural Spell feat). What animal has a 2d6 + Trip attack? Or do you have something else that is modifying your form? The majority of overland marches only last 8 hours a day. Since your Wild Shape lasts 12 hours at 12th level, you might as well Wild Shape as you start travelling, and have your party members put your magic gear on you. You don't wear Ioun Stones, so they don't get absorbed... by the current rules. John Jr aka Walker Cormin of Ehlenestra, Halfing Druid/Beastmaster
Casebier 02-21-06, 03:19 PM	I'm disliking these changes too. Cormin is my Halfling Druid, so I've generally relied on my Wildshape abilities to provide me with what I didn't have. I could easily get Low-Light vision, Track and/or Run from assorted animals. I still haven't gotten around to applying Wild to my armor, and I just changed from Dragonhide to Wildwood in order to make use of my greater Dex (In 3.0 he was a rogue). At least now we have a long-lasting Low-Light spell. Now you no longer change to the Animal type when wild shaping, which gave me the Low-Light vision and immunity to Lycanthropy disease (which only infects Giants and Humanoids). And since Wild Shape used to be based on Polymorph which was based on Alter Self, I no longer get the bonus feats (like Track) or racial bonuses (like Spot) of my form. I always viewed Druids as being something more than an amorphous blob that mimics the animal. John Jr Walker Cormin
TimRat 03-02-06, 02:06 PM	Not sure if you caught the ruling we have made but Living Greyhawk is not using the new errata for wildshape/polymorph. more will be coming shortly
tapelib 03-03-06, 03:29 PM	Not sure if you caught the ruling we have made but Living Greyhawk is not using the new errata for wildshape/polymorph. more will be coming shortly I await the Dispel Confusion with baited, lupine, breath :}> .
Mortepierre 03-04-06, 09:01 AM	I always viewed Druids as being something more than an amorphous blob that mimics the animal Latest headline: druids and dopplegangers related? <enters conspiracy mode> :D
Madfox11 03-06-06, 07:31 AM	Druid wildshape never gave sensory abilities since 3.5.