Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tellack 06-17-07, 11:51 PM	Disclaimer ***I'm not giving the title of the game for obvious spoiler reasons and I'm going to generalize the situation*** In a recent game I ran, the characters were tasked with a mission of retrieving something from someone. This someone was awaiting a court trial the following day, regarding the item, but the plaintiff in the trial urged the PC's to act out of court. So, instead of using diplomacy, the party did not think anything out and blindly "broke and entered" into the residence. First, the rogue picked the door to the residence, opened it slightly and saw a man sitting at a table (not the possessor of the item) and attempted to bluff him. He told the man that he was the captain of the city guard and that there was a fight in town that needed to be "broken up". As a DM, I thought that this was a poor excuse, and the Captain would be the one breaking up the fight, so the bluff did not work. Another party member threw an item into the room that would cause the man to fall asleep. the man made the save, and the person who threw the item (after the surprise round) entered into the room, charging actually (the door being open at this point). The person throwing the bag, having charged in, was attacked by the man, put at low HP. The possessor of the item (out of sight at the time) entered the room and "webbed" the PC who charged. Basically, the small room was webbed, the PC failed the save for web and was "stuck". Another PC used a back enterance, broke down a door, and escaped in retreat. The other PCs ran away (choosing not to enter the web) after realizing how bad the action(s) were, leaving the sole PC webbed. The webbed PC was knocked unconscious, and then killed. The adventure basically ended at this point (the PCs having failed). The dead PC complained about the death, I explained how dumb the action was, etc. This was a home game, the party at APL 4, and this being the second-third month of weekly play. Most of the players (especially the dead one) have been playing for at least 2-3 years. The player then threw his character sheet away (not opting to reincarnate, which he could have done at a minimal cost due to a favor) and left the game/playarea/my house. As a DM, you can play with a group for so long, work with them, host the games, my house as a playarea, give drinks, etc, etc. You can pull punches and be "nice" to a certain point, but actions such as these incur consequences. There were several other options to take such as: Diplomacy A better bluff Waiting until the court case:weep: A more strategic battle plan A more strategic general plan The PCs could have thought the actions out for two hours in real time if they really had to, as it was 5:00 and much time was left. It's just sad when roleplaying is at a minimum (or nonexistent) and the PCs think combat and violence can solve everything, as some players give it their all and some just "make stupid actions" that the party completely allows. Surely, if you have taken the time to read this, you may say, "Find a different group of players." I'm inclined to agree at this point :\ Do you think the player deserved to die? Please comment.
_metz_ 06-18-07, 12:17 AM	If the player attacked someone who they could not defeat who had the willingness to kill them in return, then it isn't a matter of 'deserving' to die. I would like to know the alignment of the Killer in question, if it was nongood then lethal force was probably justified, and if the NPC was evil then definitely. I have encountered similar situations before, where my GMing has been challenged by people who were unhappy by their own silly decisions in game (I recall one where the party was effectively warned, through chance, of what they were going to fight, when, and given the full opportunity to buff, and no-one did, one ran straight into the encounter by themselves, and the rest sort of procrastinated and started casting long term buffs (MAGE ARMOUR!!!) IN combat rounds - WHEN PRE WARNED. As a GM my opinion is noone deserves to be killed if they DO THE RIGHT THING. Occasionally deaths should happen due to freakish rolls, or unforeseen circumstances, and there should always be the RISK of death, but I don't feel players should be overly punished for me rolling 8 20's in a row (this happened once). Nonetheless, if Players are in games and are supposedly experienced (I expect at least that much from APL 8 players - they have a year under their belt in theory) Then if they do outrageously stupid things and get killed as a result, then I don't lose any sleep. IN this situation, I wouldn't say the player 'deserved' to die, but if the NPC was inclined to killing intruders who attacked them (quite reasonable in self defense, especailly in a fantasy setting where life is cheap - as well as unknown motivations of the NPC) They 'Deserved' the NPCs Wrath. If killing the intruders was appropriate for the module then so be it.
Tabiani 06-18-07, 12:21 AM	I think you had me right up to "The webbed PC was knocked unconscious, and then killed." Was it really necessary or proper to kill the unconscious and webbed PC? Sounds like a town with a guard and laws, were the NPCs evil? I mean, we're not out in the wild here and it wasn't a self-defense situation any more. Was summoning the guard not an option? Did the killing of the PC really fit the character of the two NPCs? Not knowing the laws and customs of the location of your adventure makes it hard for me to come up with a more definite answer. But I think you might want to consider if you're sure you acted in the character and spirit of the adventure and not in some way to "teach the PCs a lesson" about their violent ways..
_metz_ 06-18-07, 12:35 AM	I think you had me right up to "The webbed PC was knocked unconscious, and then killed." Was it really necessary or proper to kill the unconscious and webbed PC? Sounds like a town with a guard and laws, were the NPCs evil? I mean, we're not out in the wild here and it wasn't a self-defense situation any more. Was summoning the guard not an option? Did the killing of the PC really fit the character of the two NPCs? Not knowing the laws and customs of the location of your adventure makes it hard for me to come up with a more definite answer. But I think you might want to consider if you're sure you acted in the character and spirit of the adventure and not in some way to "teach the PCs a lesson" about their violent ways.. That is what I was getting at, you'll have to give us a contextual rundown. If the NPC was evil or protecting something taht the state could not find out about then i expect it was justified. If the NPC was Lawful Neutral and innocent on the other hand... It really depends.
Madfox11 06-18-07, 04:57 AM	Of course, sometimes getting arrested is practically the same as getting killed. How many years in prison (if not downright executed) would one get for breaking and entering, and attempted murder? ;)
_metz_ 06-18-07, 06:20 AM	Of course, sometimes getting arrested is practically the same as getting killed. How many years in prison (if not downright executed) would one get for breaking and entering, and attempted murder? ;) Probably 6 TUs or something stupid. I have seen a character who did exactly that only get 6 TUs.
copper_wyrmling 06-18-07, 06:30 AM	Probably 6 TUs or something stupid. I have seen a character who did exactly that only get 6 TUs. I think it's generally assumed, in those situations, that the adventurer in question escapes after 6 TUs using either their own skills or help from their friends and contacts on the outside. Remember, adventurers are extremely wealthy and resourceful people, and at mid-high levels they (or their allies) can have access to a lot of useful magic, much of which doesn't require material components. At least, that's the in-game justification I've seen for the ludicrously short prison sentences imposed on adventurers ;) (None of my PCs has ever lost TUs to imprisonment, although my cleric had a very narrow escape in the lands of Iuz - my chaotic sorceress has never come close to being imprisoned, she just gets docked loads of TUs for extraplanar tourism and consorting with dragons.)
Potato Weasel 06-18-07, 08:07 AM	I agree with you that poor (not just unfortunate, but hasty, ill advised, or 'chaotic stupid') decisions can, will, and probably should sometimes result in party death. However, sometimes its not the right person who dies unfortunately, such as when the main fighters retreat from combat and beg the casters for buffs while rogues, monks or other semi fighters are left to deal with the big threat. Or when everyone refuses to go through a door they think is trapped, when theres no party rogue, meaning it usually ends with someone being impatient with the rest of the party (and rightly so as these situations can bog down for an -hour- or so) and stepping through the door, possibly untrapped, but possibly starting the main encounter with a weird party set up. There are also people that refuse to work as a group, focusing purely on self buffing (or running away) and not actually contributing to the encounters. In the end, you just have to go with the module, and deal with the consequences. And by the way, if the webbed fighter was hit into low hp and then knocked unconscious and killed, I'm just reading it as the fighter got knocked into negative HP and just wasnt healed or stabilised.
Swiftbrook 06-18-07, 08:22 AM	I think you had me right up to "The webbed PC was knocked unconscious, and then killed." Was it really necessary or proper to kill the unconscious and webbed PC? Sounds like a town with a guard and laws, were the NPCs evil? I mean, we're not out in the wild here and it wasn't a self-defense situation any more. Was summoning the guard not an option? Did the killing of the PC really fit the character of the two NPCs? This is the key line for me as well. To justify it for me, the NPCs would need to be CE and have a very good reason for killing him. There were four or five PC witnesses that saw him alive and uncontious. Turning the downed PC over to the authorities would be the most logical course of action for any group of NPCs planning to stay in town. If the NPCs figured their plans were revealed and that they could not salvage the situation and stay in town (they left) then I can easily see them taking their anger out on the PC and killing him even if they were LE. -Swiftbrook
_metz_ 06-18-07, 08:29 AM	This is the key line for me as well. To justify it for me, the NPCs would need to be CE and have a very good reason for killing him. There were four or five PC witnesses that saw him alive and uncontious. Turning the downed PC over to the authorities would be the most logical course of action for any group of NPCs planning to stay in town. If the NPCs figured their plans were revealed and that they could not salvage the situation and stay in town (they left) then I can easily see them taking their anger out on the PC and killing him even if they were LE. -Swiftbrook Lets not forget NE :) Basically if they were evil - and the law allowed them to kill intruders who attacked them, LE would be fine also. Essentially we ask you this - was the NPC evil?
Cardinal Teplin 06-18-07, 09:02 AM	Not quite as simple as 'was he evil'? After all, these guys just broke into his house. Was he not the least bit curious as to why? Also you've left out a fair bit from your description. Why did the player believe his character didn't deserve to die, and why was he so upset that he didn't want to be raised or reincarnated? Did they really try and break into the house through the _front_ door?
Mattastrophic 06-18-07, 09:09 AM	The guy probably bled out. He was sort of stuck in some sort of web at the time. As for Character Stupidity = Death... well, they gotta learn sometime. If they don't, then they make it to APL 12 while still playing stupid, and proceed to get other people killed. -Matt
NiTessine 06-18-07, 09:14 AM	Probably 6 TUs or something stupid. I have seen a character who did exactly that only get 6 TUs. Mmh. In the Principality of Naerie, burglary carries a variety of sentences, the heaviest of which is mutilation, followed by five to eight years of hard labour. For murder, it's either death or a lifetime of hard labour. And when you're executed in Naerie, you stay that way. Favours may be burned to lessen sentences, but it's not cheap.
Cardinal Teplin 06-18-07, 11:53 AM	There's always a problem in arresting or imprisoning characters as to how to keep them arrested, imprisoned, or whatever. As was said, PCs are often people of considerable resource, and the local lock-up may not be sufficient to hold them, particularly not if the rest of the party come looking for them. Obviously there is a certain amount of suspension of disbelief in these matters, but it can only be stretched so far...
Simpi 06-18-07, 12:14 PM	Obviously there is a certain amount of suspension of disbelief in these matters, but it can only be stretched so far... Keeping even a "resourceful" adventurer locked up forever is not that hard if the individual/organisation wishes to invest even modest resources to it. People just seem to think that adventurers are so wonderful and oh-so-unique that no harm can ever come to them, at least not something which is not solved by a small amount of cash and short trip to afterlife. Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad
Tellack 06-18-07, 12:38 PM	Ok, I'm happy about the various responses. Again, I can not give the exact details of a RPGA module. Basically, the party did not plan anything and ran into the house. They actually met the two people who they were going to choose to fight earlier in the module in combat situations. The person who gave them the directions to the residence said "this is so and so's place" The person they fought actually saved their lives in combat (Ironically with web) in another combat situation against a powerful disguised creature. As far as the web goes, the cleric was already gone from the situation (3/5 party members hightailed it when the "charger charged". Now that i think of it, the action was indeed chaotic and now even possibly evil. He attacked the people outright and attempted murder, in their own residence sitting down, "minding their own business" As far as: Did they really try and break into the house through the _front_ door? Well, I'll try to describe the situation more outright as I don't want to give away specific game(s). The NPC who wanted the item pressured the PCs into retrieving the item before the court date. The PCs agreed with this (although they clearly did not have to). The PCs did not make a plan, choose possible alternatives, or anything of the sort. They gathered information, asked locals, etc. and found that the person with the item was upstairs in an inn. The innkeeper told the PCs which room the specific person was in and they found it. A rogue approached the locked door and slighly opened it. He used disguise/bluff and was talking to the person's bodyguard - who they met earlier in the adventure. The rogue's bluff failed and was miserable. Through the conversation, they did not see the holder of the item and only saw the bodyguard. It was obvious that the bodyguard and the person was there. The PCs knew what they were up against, again, because they saw both of the NPCs in combat earlier in the mod. A PC decided to throw some sort of sleeping gas into the room. I asked him "Are you sure you want to do that?" He had time to think about it and no other party member objected. He showed me an AR with the item he purchased, I saw the save and the NPC made the save. The person throwing the gas opted initiative and was first in the round. At this point, the door was open and he had 15 feet to charge. He indeed charged, hit the NPC and damaged the NPC. One PC being outside at this point did some "James Bond?" actions with a grappling hook and went through the window of the inn (breaking it), through the back door of the room (breaking it). The room itself is connected with other rooms in a giant hallway. The grappling hook guy broke the back door down and eventually attacked the NPC also. He was able to get away, tumbling out of the window and taking fall damage, but was later Wanted/captured. The other PCs opted initiative to run away, as they did not want to take part in this (being lawful, intelligent, or otherwise). Out from the other room came the item holder, who webbed the charger and the general area he was in, making him unable to escape (he failed his saves). the bodyguard and the caster attacked him, knocked him unconscious, and killed him. The bodyguard as described in the mod:: He is faithful to "the itemholder" and will immediately attack someone who threatens "the itemholder". Initial attitude: Unfriendly (Regardless, a PC charged him and attacked him) He will do his utmost to not kill a PC unless it is clear that the PC intends to kill "the itemholder" or himself The Bodyguard and the "item holder" were aware of the court case, obviously and the "plantiff" was a person who caused fights throughout the mod on other NPCs and did some really, really shady and shitfy things. Bodyguards are employed for a reason :X As far as the actual player goes, he had an option to reincarnate for a very cheap price per a favor, but instead crumbled up his character sheet, threw it away, and left the play area. He was not really saying much after the death, but I did explain to him exactly what he did, how the party did not think things about and blindly rushed things in this game and previous games. After several, several warnings about working as a team and being intelligent about things (this being an APL 4 game and those players playing with me from LG character creation), he still rushed in while knowing the consequences and the combat ability of the two NPCs. I had a discussion about how things can/do work in the real world and D&D and why the NPC (and I) would kill the character. Breaking and entering, destruction of property, attempted murder, etc, etc. I don't say killing a PC is the best way to teach a lesson or that "stupid actions deserve death", but beating the dead horse does nothing. Warning,warning,warning, inaction. Some things ought to catch up for a reason. One of my characters died in the past and I learned I lesson. I sucked it up and realized my actions were stupid and will never try to go through a hallway of traps again when there is an alternate route :X
Tellack 06-18-07, 12:40 PM	People just seem to think that adventurers are so wonderful and oh-so-unique that no harm can ever come to them Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad Yup, so do the players who play the adventurers.
gomeztoo 06-18-07, 12:52 PM	He will do his utmost to not kill a PC unless it is clear that the PC intends to kill "the itemholder" or himself That sort of sounds like there was no actual reason to kill the PC once he was unconscious. The context seems to suggest that turning him in to the guards was the most logical option. Whether PCs are stupid shouldn't factor in to whether NPC X decide to kill them. It merely means a greater chance on failure (which does not equate to death). But it's hard to say for certain whether the death was justified. Fog of war and such. Just be careful with such situations, is all I say. Gomez
NiTessine 06-18-07, 01:14 PM	Decapitation and incineration keep most people pretty dead. If not, thinaun weapons have been known to be introduced to the equation. In Naerie, they've been used to execute Scarlet Brotherhood high-ups and Idee Volunteer leadership. Major prison facilities can and should be designed for keeping in the highly dangerous elements like clerics, sorcerers and monks who can often come up with innovative and unexpected ways to escape. Antimagic fields, teleport and scrying blocks and guards trained and equipped to take down high-level targets are a good start. High-risk inmates are stamped with a mark of justice that kick in when they try to escape, and their hair will be shaved off and stored in a safe place to help scrying if he does. Iron floors discourage burrowers and if one really wants to go to town, there are a couple of nifty templates in Dungeoncraft for breeding the watchcreatures. Or how about constructs? Depending on the area, most military installations should have similar installations for short-term imprisonment until transportation can be arranged, either by an escort of elite troops supplemented by a mage-killer squad, or by teleportation. Sure, you can theoretically overcome all obstacles and escape from jail, or your friends can help you do it. It just shouldn't be easy. The authorities are usually not stupid and they generally do have the resources.
UMiskatonic 06-18-07, 01:26 PM	I think that all of you have missed a major point, namely, play style. To fairly answer this question, I would want to know what kind of game the players and the DM was expecting. I bet if you asked them, it wouldn't match. The DM feels pretty solid that players need to 'play smart' and role-play, and problem solve. Unfortunately, the D&D rules don't support these goals in the same way that they support, say, combat. This particular player seems to think that the PCs are the primary movers of events, and that they are 'special', that while cinematic things will happen to them, they will always rise to fight another day, just like in the movies. BOTH OF THESE ARE VALID POINTS OF VIEW. It just depends on what kind of game you want to play. Did you talk about this ahead of time, during campaign intros and character creation? Did you mention what your view of LG was, and how you would be interpreting rules, etc? You might be surprised by what the players tell you, if you bother to ask.
LeeShort 06-18-07, 04:54 PM	Miskatonic raises a valid point. Play style is a significant issue. Now, that doesn't mean that all play styles are (or can be) well served by LG. What I think is important is that each table judge be forthcoming about how he tends to judge and about how the mod is written (equally important). I know that I've been the player sitting at the table thinking "well this is dumb -- but it looks like if we don't do it, then we get a blank AR and have four hours to kill." I think a whole lot of character stupidity stems from this dynamic...the players sometimes feel that rash, 'stupid' actions are required of them to keep the game moving. What we need is a reliable way for players to tell whether or not this is indeed the case. So while I can sympathize with the "stupid characters deserve to die" sentiment...I feel that LG is not a good venue to take too hard a line on this until there's a reliable method for GMs to communicate to the players their expectations and the expectations of the module. Most GMs I know are pretty good about this kind of communication, but there are a few hardnosed no-metagaming GMs that make it very difficult for players to know what to do. In this case, it sounds like the GM communicated where they stood and the fault lies with the player, IMO...the GM really isn't required to adjust their style to the player, so long as they have made it clear where they stand.
jstorrie 06-18-07, 07:37 PM	If the PC bled out while in a web, well, tough. That happens. It's not like the NPCs CDG'd him. I don't see anything particularly wrong with how you handled the situation. They attacked some people, the people fought back, they lost. So?
control freak 06-18-07, 08:38 PM	I believe that if you are DMing a game your job is to reflect what would happen should a situation occure, for instance if they did something stupid they would either get really lucky and it woud work crazy well or they would die/get captured one thing i really HATE is rolling a 20 on a touch attack with something like a sorching ray or a breath wep in an un named module which is still current and rolling 8 or 10 d6 for damage when it is apl 2 (in the last encounter) or apl4 where people are relativly new and really stupid stuff happens like 40 damage to the level 3 fighter who has a measly 8 on him prior to that in an apl4 mod and droped him which really ****** me off i hate when single crits can ruin well made characters and worse off make a guy quit LG because it hampers LG growth and makes bad days for both the DM and the player ****** off
Swiftbrook 06-18-07, 08:57 PM	I don't say killing a PC is the best way to teach a lesson or that "stupid actions deserve death", but beating the dead horse does nothing. Warning,warning,warning, inaction. Some things ought to catch up for a reason. This sound to me that the PC died as a result of DM vs. Player not NPC vs. PC. I don't care what you're DM justification is for killing the PC, what I care about is the NPC's justification. It sounds like you, the DM, wanted to teach the player a lesson. Killing an uncontious PC without a very good reason on the part of the NPC is out-of-line from my point of view. Many people mentioned that the PC "bled out". Did the PC get his stabilization rolls? Would the NPC's have more trouble for letting the PC die vs. trying to save him? Even most evil NPCs want to avoid trouble if possible and to save their cover. Note: I've been at a few tables recently where it seemed it was DM vs. the players. The DM forgot to try to create a fun event for the players. Thankfully, this is not the norm. -Swiftbrook
control freak 06-18-07, 09:25 PM	well the one i am speaking of he went straight from high twentys to neg 12 or something (i also bearly confermed his touch of 17 b/c of his +1 tower sheild dex and ring of protection (cus he had the sheild feat for touch AC)) as for him if the PC only got 1 or 2 stablizing rolls and missd them when the party abandoned him then that kinda sucks because theres nothing any one could do to help (other then maby close wounds if they had 1)
_metz_ 06-18-07, 09:59 PM	This sound to me that the PC died as a result of DM vs. Player not NPC vs. PC. I don't care what you're DM justification is for killing the PC, what I care about is the NPC's justification. It sounds like you, the DM, wanted to teach the player a lesson. Killing an uncontious PC without a very good reason on the part of the NPC is out-of-line from my point of view. Many people mentioned that the PC "bled out". Did the PC get his stabilization rolls? Would the NPC's have more trouble for letting the PC die vs. trying to save him? Even most evil NPCs want to avoid trouble if possible and to save their cover. Note: I've been at a few tables recently where it seemed it was DM vs. the players. The DM forgot to try to create a fun event for the players. Thankfully, this is not the norm. -Swiftbrook Occasionally however a few players equate - NPCs vs PC actions as you being 'against' them. I got told off by this one player many times cos my demons were utilising thier teleports, being tactical, or another situation where a Blood Golem of Hextor with whirlwind attack followed its programming. Such players can be very obtrusive, and As DM you SHOULDN'T HAVE to stop every five minutes and explain or show them in the mod that you are doing as is told or acting how the NPCs should act. I got this problem the most with the former primary DM of my area who has a differing style to mine, and when I DMed the games were different. As I have said a THOUSAND TIMES WAS THE NPC EVIL/HAD ANY CLEAR MOTIVES OF HOSTILITY. All you have to do is look up the stat block/explanatory text. If they weren't then the killing was probably NOT justified. If it did, then it was FINE. - Attack an NPC that is happy to kill you, and lose, and that is what you get. Its like a module I was DMing where one character kept firing spells off at the Bad guy who was waaaay too powerful for them to defeat. (CE bad guy I might add) It was clear that they could not defeat this Character, but this one PC kept attacking it. Fortunately he was eventually bound and gagged before he was killed.
clannagh 06-18-07, 10:16 PM	David as usual you completely change stories to make suit yourself. It was me questioning you. And the question was simple .. with demons inside a room and the party outside and not visible .. how accurately can the teleporting demons position themselves relative to the party. Basically the question was how do they know who is where to put themselves in tactical positions (I still do not know the answer to this). Anything else you may have thought was said was in your imagination.
_metz_ 06-18-07, 10:21 PM	David as usual you completely change stories to make suit yourself. It was me questioning you. And the question was simple .. with demons inside a room and the party outside and not visible .. how accurately can the teleporting demons position themselves relative to the party. Basically the question was how do they know who is where to put themselves in tactical positions (I still do not know the answer to this). Anything else you may have thought was said was in your imagination. They teleported outside (There was an Animal companion blocking the door). Then they moved in and attacked NEXT turn Glenn. Teleported behind the party as they knew roughly where they were courtesy of the window where one of the demons was fighting) You spent 15 minutes actually getting angry at me about that. You criticized first the module for an overpowered encounter, then criticized me IN GAME in front of the other players as running it too hard and deliberately trying to kill the characters. Both are completely unacceptable and I have never criticized you in game Glenn, despite our differences. You seem to forget the details very often yourself. Furthermore, you claimed my statements of 'Rauxes is NOT suicide - but it is difficult and you must be prepared and work together in order to succeed' as blatant lies, and I should have told everyone that 'they would all die' as you had been doing. You even went so far as to claim that I had intentionally said this in order to kill a few player characters. <At this point I would like to note that I in fact whilst coming close on several occasions, did not actually kill anyone that game> . I did not name names and it definitely happened, whether it was a mistake by your understanding of the situation or not it was an applicable example of a Player accusing a DM of being against the players when it was merely the modus operandi of the monster/NPC in general. One of the Demons was fighting a character by an open window, which had been busted open by a PC. Via their telepathy they KNEW there was more PCs outside they could get to. They were INT and Wisdom 14. You suggest they try to go through the door where there was a buffed animal companion or simply teleport out to the casters? (There was no-one in the building for them to kill, and the mod stated they were after 'breakfast' and wanted to kill/torture the PCs) I have a very good memory, and recall that situation perfectly in fact. It has long been a great example of how NOT to deal with a fight - e.g: blaming the DM and the module verbosely in game. I have yet to find someone else who thinks that I set out to kill them in game when I am DMing.
copper_wyrmling 06-18-07, 11:18 PM	Decapitation and incineration keep most people pretty dead. If not, thinaun weapons have been known to be introduced to the equation. In Naerie, they've been used to execute Scarlet Brotherhood high-ups and Idee Volunteer leadership. Killing somebody permanently is definitely easier than imprisoning them permanently ;) Major prison facilities can and should be designed for keeping in the highly dangerous elements like clerics, sorcerers and monks who can often come up with innovative and unexpected ways to escape. Antimagic fields, I've seen cellblocks with permanent antimagic fields before - and that annoys me, because as far as I know, there is no way within the mechanics of the game to create such a thing. (Please do let me know if I'm wrong here.) Dimensional lock is more reasonable, since it lasts for days / level, but it still requires a lot of castings to cover a substantial area (it's a 20ft-radius emanation) and you'd need to have a L15 cleric or wizard dropping by every couple of weeks to renew the spell - NPCs of that level aren't exactly common. It's probably fine in a nation's maximum-security prison, but I'd be a bit annoyed to run into it in a small town's gaol unless there's a good in-game reason (which there might be: I know at least one Lawful PC who intends to retire to a little village in the mountains once he reaches L16). High-risk inmates are stamped with a mark of justice that kick in when they try to escape, and their hair will be shaved off and stored in a safe place to help scrying if he does. Yeah, those are good ideas, and don't require very high-level spellcasters. Sure, you can theoretically overcome all obstacles and escape from jail, or your friends can help you do it. It just shouldn't be easy. The authorities are usually not stupid and they generally do have the resources. It does depend on where you are, though. The authorities in a little country village may well not have the resources. If you're waving your holy symbol of Pelor around in Dorakaa, on the other hand...
solbergb 06-18-07, 11:35 PM	Feebleminding most characters means pretty much a normal prison will hold them. This occurred to me after I was running the BBEG of a battle interactive for the party that decided to try to stop his escape and they got lucky and stuck a feeblemind on him..... Not only did the interactive end in victory, the interactive organizer, upon hearing the result, said "Oh good, now I don't have to write anything for that guy again. He was annoying but he can't free himself in that state, and he's burned his bridges with respect to rescuers..." I have several characters with favors of people or organizations who will actively try to free them if they're captured or enslaved. These range from a NPC adventuring party that my character helped rescue from their own "TPK" to secret societies that I aided without knowing it who bribe or "arrange for" escape opportunities. I think the assumption is that most PC's have a large number of favors to draw on (just look at your AR's - most favors go unused forever) and if captured by all but the most implacable enemy (eg, you attacked a boneheart and lost. Rescue is unlikely) at some point there will be somebody bribeable, blackmailable or a chink in the defenses. Or even the person imprisoning you decides you're useful and after 6 TU's of casting fabricate for him, or healing his sick, or training his soldiers or stealing something for him that was useful but didn't feature challenges big enough to earn you xp....they let you go. I don't like antimagic field defenses either. Heck, I don't even like dimensional manacles - they're too pricey for most prisoners. I prefer simple, lowtech solutions (feeblemind is one, the "hall of whispered enervation" or whatever was done to the Never Rains in Nyrond villain is another - lock him in a room with a wraith until he's level drained enough to be not much of a threat). In the Pale, the "holding cells" while awaiting trial aren't very difficult to escape from. It's just that the consequence of escape is assumption that you're guilty of whatever you were charged with, plus of course probably adding the more serious charges of escape and obstruction of justice (and perhaps assault). Most times you're safer going into the courtroom. Those charged with capital crimes are treated much more carefully, but again, taking away equipment, manacles and a gag cover the vast majority of criminals as long as you watch them and are careful when you feed them. If really paranoid, take them to a hallowed area with dimensional lock in addition to the usual restraints. If that doesn't seem sufficient, preventing them from taking actions is pretty foolproof (don't let them wake up, or feeblemind them, or similar)
Tellack 06-19-07, 12:03 AM	This sound to me that the PC died as a result of DM vs. Player not NPC vs. PC. I don't care what you're DM justification is for killing the PC, what I care about is the NPC's justification. It sounds like you, the DM, wanted to teach the player a lesson. Killing an uncontious PC without a very good reason on the part of the NPC is out-of-line from my point of view. You know, I've explained the game situation as much as possible without giving away the name of the mod and the NPCs names. The NPC defiantly had just reason to kill the PC, as again, he was a bodyguard, and as the mod said, :: He is faithful to "the itemholder" and will immediately attack someone who threatens "the itemholder". Initial attitude: Unfriendly He will do his utmost to not kill a PC unless it is clear that the PC intends to kill "the itemholder" or himself :: I thought about this today while at work. I think I actually got a bit behind in my tasks, as I ended up leaving 30 minutes later than usual. I'm holding to the decision. It was not the issue of DM versus player. I was pointing out about how much I helped the PCs in the current mod and the previous mods. I'm not a stickler for word-word actions and I'm as fair as possible to the players without saying "This is the way to do things". As far as : "The PCs had only one option! they had to break in" They did not. -As I mentioned before, they could have waited until a court case to deal with the NPCs. -They could have possibly distracted both NPCs out of the room and stole the item. -They could have acquired a writ in order to search the room as representatives of the law. Etc, etc The module openly gave some options like these in NPC "Boxed text diolague". Sure, some players enjoy the "knock in the door style" or the "problem solving style", etc. A main universal "style" of D&D though is working together as a party with your teammates/fellow players, especially in a home game where the players have played together for 2-3 months in LG with me DMing....
GreatSiron 06-19-07, 12:27 AM	As far as : "The PCs had only one option! they had to break in" They did not. -As I mentioned before, they could have waited until a court case to deal with the NPCs. -They could have possibly distracted both NPCs out of the room and stole the item. -They could have acquired a writ in order to search the room as representatives of the law. Etc, etc The module openly gave some options like these in NPC "Boxed text diolague". Sure, some players enjoy the "knock in the door style" or the "problem solving style", etc. A main universal "style" of D&D though is working together as a party with your teammates/fellow players, especially in a home game where the players have played together for 2-3 months in LG with me DMing.... The problem with those other options is the mindset, "if we don't kill something killable, we might lose gold or/and access". Which is why many parties use the 'kick in the door method'. Not always the best idea, but most people would rather pay for a raise dead than lose access to something.
Tellack 06-19-07, 12:43 AM	The problem with those other options is the mindset, "if we don't kill something killable, we might lose gold or/and access". Which is why many parties use the 'kick in the door method'. Not always the best idea, but most people would rather pay for a raise dead than lose access to something. I see, I see. But the point was getting the item :\
LGMoses 06-19-07, 01:57 AM	sometimes pc's do stupid things. I've seen pc's die from deadly traps and missing a search check by 4. I've seen pc's die because they wanted to get done with the mod quickly to get home to watch South Park, but an ork falchion critting on a lvl 1 character got him home quicker than he liked. I roll most things behind the screen. If things get tense and I think someone may die I roll in front of everyone. Absolves me of responsability. I give players the choice of me or them for stabilization. They can either roll stabilization themselves in front of everyone or I can roll it for them behind the screen. As for that situation. That s.o.b. was dead. Even if the guard only knocked him out he would have probably bled out. If the guard kept attacking after he was dead... yeah thats kinda dum... really dum.... but too late now. Live and learn buddy. Maybe u weren't thinking when u killed the guy. Then he wasn't thinking when he refused to get raised. A losing situation for the both of you. Maybe you'll both learn something.... Or maybe you'll both just have a slight grudge against each other for the rest of your lives...
_metz_ 06-19-07, 02:19 AM	A losing situation for the both of you. Maybe you'll both learn something.... Or maybe you'll both just have a slight grudge against each other for the rest of your lives... Unfortunately it happens. Has happened to me. Has probably happened to a lot of people. The benefit of LG is that lots of people play it. After all its only a game :) some people take it all waaay too seriously imho lol
Madfox11 06-19-07, 03:53 AM	I've seen cellblocks with permanent antimagic fields before - and that annoys me, because as far as I know, there is no way within the mechanics of the game to create such a thing. (Please do let me know if I'm wrong here.) Actually there is. You could craft the prison as a magic item. It is expensive, time consuming and hardly ever worth the money. As others have said, a hallow with a dimensional anchor does wonders and is much cheaper. If you worry about scrying, a permanent Mordekainen's private sanctum does wonders as well. Of course, the cheapest sollution would actually be to petrify dangerous prisoners - all you need is a well-fed bassilisk or cocktrice. Sure, they might die if you reverse the effect, but chances are low if the prisoner is so dangerous that it is required, and you can always ressurect them. You only need a couple of square feet for storage, no food and minimal guards per statue.
Cardinal Teplin 06-19-07, 07:10 AM	Sure, but none of these stop the rest of the party from breaking a prisoner out - and many of them would hardly even slow a high-level party down. I'm not saying it's not possible to keep someone locked up, merely that it's impractical to permenantly imprison PCs in LG. Partly because we can't afford to spend huge amounts of game time on it, but nor can we just assume the NPCs win when a PC's continued presence in the game is on the line. PCs have many and vairious abilities, from magical powers to extraordinary abiltiies to favours from some of the most powerful people in the game world. A decent high-security prison may be able to hold most, maybe even the vast majoirty, of PCs. But we can't assume they can hold everyone, without exception. I think the present situation is pretty good. Imprisonment takes time and effort to resolve, ensuring it is no trivial matter. But we don't have the situation where annoying the local guard is a more important matter than being targeted by a fiend from the 9 hells. It's a balance that's good for the game.
pedr 06-19-07, 07:50 AM	Dragon #344 has information on the most notorious prison in the Eberron campaign setting. Dreadhold is designed from the ground up to imprison people who are so powerful or important that extra extra special measures are needed to keep them confined. Now admittedly that's in the 'magic-used-as-tech' assumptions of the Ebberon setting, but there might be some interesting ideas in that article about what steps could be taken to create a prison which was less 'leaky' than ones that PCs are usually imprisoned in. It was also the subject of a Mark of Heroes module, 'Gambit at Dreadhold' by David Christ, Simon Waterson and SRM. Having said that, it's generally better for Living Greyhawk that PCs get to escape - unavoidable unrecoverable removal from the campaign is a harsh result for a module and should only occur in extreme circumstances - but perhaps it's good to have the option there for those extreme circumstances.
Madfox11 06-19-07, 10:36 AM	Don't forget that Dreadhold Prison was built by a continent enspanning empire during a long period of prosperity and peace and is run by a powerful organization specialized in keeping things secure. Only a few nations in the Flaneasse would have the resources for it and most of those would just execute a prisoner instead of putting them in a prison that would cost more money to build than a small kingdom would earn in decades.
pedr 06-19-07, 11:22 AM	Yes, indeed. I wasn't suggesting that Dreadhold would be likely to exist on Oerth, but that those sources might suggest some ways in which a prison could be created to house adventurers and other such powerful individuals.
GrahamWills 06-19-07, 10:11 PM	The simplest method I can think of of building a prison is to take all the PC's items and hide them somewhere. If the player break out or is broken out of prison, pay a high level party that amount of money to go bring 'em back and then permanent-kill them. A typical mid-high level LG character's wealth would make a very nice pay for level+4 party, whoc will have no trouble finding and killing him. Don't build a great prison -- just make sure you have a lot of lawful neutral bloodhounds ready to kill for pay.
Cardinal Teplin 06-20-07, 08:36 AM	The simplest method I can think of of building a prison is to take all the PC's items and hide them somewhere. If the player break out or is broken out of prison, pay a high level party that amount of money to go bring 'em back and then permanent-kill them. Don't build a great prison -- just make sure you have a lot of lawful neutral bloodhounds ready to kill for pay. Possibly. Of course if the PC is someone reasonably important in their home country, like a noble, then you may then have a war on your hands. What you are suggesting is a vendetta. The problem is, it works both ways. Hunting down those lawful neutral bloodhounds would be a great quest for another, even higher level party. Hunting down the guy who hired them and making an example of him would be a reasonable quest for a low-level party, and so on. PCs are trouble. You don't kill them or permenantly inconvenince them for the same reason you don't kill off government agents. If you want to model one, you need to model the other. I approve of PCs who break the law attracting negative consequences. However, those consequences can not be too harsh, because those who inflict negative consequences are themselves vulnerable.
Vamroc 06-21-07, 09:08 PM	I know the mod in which you speak it sounds like stupidity was not the problem. It seems your party was full of Jackasses that didn't see the situation for what is. A test of your party's moral charactor to see how they would react given the chance to commit a crime. Boy did you fail that's the kind of failure you need to have on tape and watch later hahahaha.
_metz_ 06-21-07, 10:41 PM	I know the mod in which you speak it sounds like stupidity was not the problem. It seems your party was full of Jackasses that didn't see the situation for what is. A test of your party's moral charactor to see how they would react given the chance to commit a crime. Boy did you fail that's the kind of failure you need to have on tape and watch later hahahaha. I don't find that post helpful at all really. I doubt that the original author does either. 'Boy did you fail' ?????
Tellack 06-22-07, 12:16 AM	Boy, you failed. Next game I'll have to record, I suppose. :O