Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Moryath 01-26-06, 11:34 AM	To the Circle: It has come to my attention through certain sources that no "new" spells from the Spell Compendium are being added to the Core spells list. This is disastrous for one base class, the Warmage, who are under current rules highly gimped for their "Advanced Knowledge" class feature. Advanced Knowledge, at 3rd and 6th level, allows a Warmage to add one Evocation spell not already know, to their spells list. The problem? At 3rd level, a Warmage can only cast 1st level spells. At 6th level, they are (thankfully) now able to cast 3rd level spells. However, of the Core spells list, there are precious few Evocations available. At first level, the ONLY evocation currently Core that they do not already know is Tenser's Floating Disk. Third level isn't much better, presumably because WotC's designers in the Complete Book series were Conjuration-happy. In short, the Advanced Learning feature, without adding a few low level Evocations from the Spell Compendium to the Core list, is Worthless. Please see your way to correcting this.
Samwise 01-26-06, 12:00 PM	Except when the class was designed and presented in Complete Arcane, it had those same limited choices. The expanded knowledge feature wasn't thoroughly useless when the class was introduced, and doesn't need any correcting. I would also note what the Spell Compendium says about adding spells to the lists of classes like the Warmage. I think the same applies to adding spells that they can add to their lists, as too large a selection may lead to unforseen synergies.
Paul H 01-26-06, 05:13 PM	Hi As a regular Warmage player - I realise Warmage's weakness is lack of utility spells. I use Leomund's Tiny Hut. Very useful in extreme weather. Or - if you're from the school of 'I don't take any spell that doesn't kill something......", then Resonating Bolt (SC Pg 174) is on the Core list current LGCS (pg 27). It's a sonic Lightning Bolt. :D Whilst our choices are limited - sure that's the intention. Of course, if you meet the prereqs for Arcane Disciple, then Advanced Learning becomes almost obsolete. True Neutral follower Fharlanghn takes Travel Domain - gains 'useless' spells like Fly, Dimension Door, Teleport, or Celerity Domain - Cat's Grace, Blur, Haste...... Nothing really useful..... ;) Cheers Paul H PS Is your Warmage multi-classed?
JamesMaissen 01-26-06, 05:20 PM	Except when the class was designed and presented in Complete Arcane, it had those same limited choices. The expanded knowledge feature wasn't thoroughly useless when the class was introduced, and doesn't need any correcting. I would also note what the Spell Compendium says about adding spells to the lists of classes like the Warmage. I think the same applies to adding spells that they can add to their lists, as too large a selection may lead to unforseen synergies. The note in the Spell Compendium is refering to adding to the normal warmage spell list and not to advanced learning. Advanced learning is a place to customize your warmage with what's out there available to sorcerers and wizards. It also added a venue for the class as written to be expanded by the ever growing lists of spells available.. an interestingly (and surprisingly) longsighted view. That said if one looks at all the complete books and all the races books you will not find a 1st level evocation spell in the lot. The original poster was almost correct in saying that Tenser's Floating Disk is the only choice for an LG warmage.. the other choice is the 0 level spell Dancing Lights. Adding in a few limited evocation spells would be of more use to the wizard and sorcerer than ever to the warmage. But it would be nice to be able to take advantage of this new depth of spells for them and to give them some modicum of choice in an area that would allow for differences between them. That said I personally think that making 'new' spells at first restricted is a prudent thing to do. They should each be considered and taken or rejected on thier own merits, as opposed to making them all core and then having to change some to restricted later via a dispel confusion article after the genie is out of the bottle. The worst case is that they are made limited and then problems do not become evident in a timely fashion but rather linger on as 'not affecting enough to merit special attention' or something of the like. -James
Moryath 01-26-06, 05:25 PM	Except when the class was designed and presented in Complete Arcane, it had those same limited choices. The expanded knowledge feature wasn't thoroughly useless when the class was introduced, and doesn't need any correcting. I would also note what the Spell Compendium says about adding spells to the lists of classes like the Warmage. I think the same applies to adding spells that they can add to their lists, as too large a selection may lead to unforseen synergies. Please read the class, sir. Whe the class was designed and presented, it was a home-game class, and the expectation was that other evocations (from Faerun source or otherwise) were available to the player. It is likely that the class was begun designing during 3.0 rules, and the "evocation" listing was a holdover that nobody paid attention to while WotC's designers virtually ignored the Evocation school of spells, because the designers of the class expected to see any number of Evocations reenter the 3.5 arena. We have plenty of other classes and prestige classes that have silly requirements or downright contradictory rules, thanks to WotC's failure to playtest and examine their own writings on many occasions. In addition, the SC has plenty to say on adding spells to the Warmage list, but this is not "adding them to the list." This is allowing Warmages to use a *CLASS ABILITY* to expand their own meager knowledge by adding, personally, two Wizard spells to their knowledge.
Moryath 01-26-06, 05:32 PM	That said I personally think that making 'new' spells at first restricted is a prudent thing to do. They should each be considered and taken or rejected on thier own merits, as opposed to making them all core and then having to change some to restricted later via a dispel confusion article after the genie is out of the bottle. The worst case is that they are made limited and then problems do not become evident in a timely fashion but rather linger on as 'not affecting enough to merit special attention' or something of the like. -James I would agree with you to a point, but the fact remains, the LGCS's stance on "limited" this-and-that blatantly encourages players to AR-shop for whatever it is they're looking for, or encourages other players to say "hey PSST you should really play this with character X because of the access." ---Example: a certain Year 3 module I played in, where "everyone who's got a Monk has to play this b/c the access for a Monk is awesome" (Monk's Belt). In addition, spells aren't quite the same as other things. In gaining access to spells, Sorcerors have to learn them into their meager list - every so-called "limited" spell they take pushes aside something they might equally want to have, because they can't have everything. Likewise for Mages, even if the spells are Core, you don't have *access* to anything that's not PHB unless you (A) find it in a spellbook, (B) learn it from another wizard, or (C) learn it as one of your bonus-learning spells. I don't find this to be too broken thereby; it's certainly a good sight better to me than seeing an entire group of mages running into a module because they've heard Limited Spell XYZ Dragonslayer or some nonsense is available in a spellbook. In addition, most of the evocations out there are straightforward and number-crunchable with no problem, so making (for example) Scintillating Sphere (3rd level, as Fireball, but does Electricity damage) a Core spell ought not to be any major deal, right?
Paul H 01-26-06, 05:58 PM	Hi Agree with practically everything in last post, but remember that LGCS has long list of Core Spells, now listed in Spell Compendium. You just have to be at least 3rd lvl to take them when you level, etc. They're bit harder to get between levels because scrolls are AR Access only. Resonating Bolt is Core, so is Leomund's Tiny Hut. At 11th lvl you can take Bigby's Interposing Hand, Wall of Force, etc. Not all the offensive spells are available to Warmages, otherwise what's the point of Wizards? Isn't it bad enough already that you can easily get +12 spell damage vs Humans at 9th lvl? As an Aside: Ranger 1/Warmage8, Int 16 Favoured Enemy Humans Feats: Point Blank Shot, Extra Edge, Improved Favoured Enemy (Humans) With Practiced Spellcaster (Warmage) at 3rd - Lssr Acid Orb, 5D8 + 12. Not bad for 1st lvl spell! Cheers Munchkin Player
Moryath 01-26-06, 06:33 PM	Hi Agree with practically everything in last post, but remember that LGCS has long list of Core Spells, now listed in Spell Compendium. You just have to be at least 3rd lvl to take them when you level, etc. They're bit harder to get between levels because scrolls are AR Access only. Resonating Bolt is Core, so is Leomund's Tiny Hut. At 11th lvl you can take Bigby's Interposing Hand, Wall of Force, etc. And neither of them are 1st level. Your advanced learning choices for your first slot of Advanced Learning are still completely nonexistent. As for learning spells via leveling past 3rd, you only get two per level. Granted, that's far better than what Warmages and Sorcerors get, but it is still plenty of a limiting factor.
Paul H 01-26-06, 06:57 PM	As for learning spells via leveling past 3rd, you only get two per level. Granted, that's far better than what Warmages and Sorcerors get, but it is still plenty of a limiting factor. Hi The idea of limiting factors is that no-one can do everything. Wizards can still 'learn' 2 spells from the Core List in LGCS, then buy scrolls from DMG and scribe the scrolls into their books. Sorcerors only know very few spells, Warmages vast amounts. Sorceror Lvl 1 - Spells Known 4 Cantrips 2 1st Lvl Warmage lvl 1 - Spells Known 4 Cantrips 13 1st Lvl (Can only use 5 until character 3rd lvl) It gets worse as we increase levels. Very little use now for 'Blaster' Sorceror. If you need more spells, then either multiclass or take Arcane Disciple. (Some Prestige classes also add to your spells known). Cheers Paul H
Moryath 01-26-06, 11:33 PM	Hi The idea of limiting factors is that no-one can do everything. Wizards can still 'learn' 2 spells from the Core List in LGCS, then buy scrolls from DMG and scribe the scrolls into their books. Sorcerors only know very few spells, Warmages vast amounts. Sorceror Lvl 1 - Spells Known 4 Cantrips 2 1st Lvl Warmage lvl 1 - Spells Known 4 Cantrips 13 1st Lvl (Can only use 5 until character 3rd lvl) It gets worse as we increase levels. Very little use now for 'Blaster' Sorceror. If you need more spells, then either multiclass or take Arcane Disciple. (Some Prestige classes also add to your spells known). Cheers Paul H I must disagree. Forcing players to take a feat, rather than allow them to use a class ability? There is something very wrong about that. As for prestige classes, please tell which ones? I haven't seen any at all with that effect (except for Mage of the Arcane Order, which does not apply to Warmages), certainly not any Core prestige classes.
Samwise 01-27-06, 12:25 AM	Please read the class, sir. Whe the class was designed and presented, it was a home-game class, and the expectation was that other evocations (from Faerun source or otherwise) were available to the player. I did read the class. And I've read most everything else presented by WotC. That includes the concept that most all expansion books are usable on their own. Indeed, checking the back of my Complete Arcane, I note the following: T o use this supplement, a Dungeon Master also needs the Player's Handbook TM, Dungeon Master' Guide TM, and Monster Manual TM. A player needs only the Player's Handbook . Nothing about other evocations, from Faerun sources or otherwise, in any of that. So please read the product, sir. The note in the Spell Compendium is refering to adding to the normal warmage spell list and not to advanced learning. Advanced learning is a place to customize your warmage with what's out there available to sorcerers and wizards. It also added a venue for the class as written to be expanded by the ever growing lists of spells available.. an interestingly (and surprisingly) longsighted view. It refers specifically to expanding the list, yes. But a truly longsighted view will recognize that an unrestricted expansion of the number of spells available will inevitably lead to the balance problems I mentioned earlier. It should be obvious that the LG campaign has come to recognize the difficulties involved in simply expanding the list for regular casters. What will the effects be for super-specialists like the War Mage?
JamesMaissen 01-27-06, 03:28 AM	As for prestige classes, please tell which ones? I haven't seen any at all with that effect (except for Mage of the Arcane Order, which does not apply to Warmages), certainly not any Core prestige classes. A warmage can certainly become a mage of the arcane order, as can a sorcerer and a bard, should any of them take all the prereqs to become one (arcane preparation being a requirement for any of those in addition to the metamagic feats). They would gain access to the spellpool, but it does not add to anyone's spell list or spells known. Getting access to a domain is the way to increase the spell list. Divine Oracle is the easiest PrC that gives a Domain. Others are there but not as easy in LG for one reason or another. Rainbow Servant does as well (though gives caster level hits and requires strange access issues). Likewise if you take a few divine casting levels then Seeker of the Misty Isle can give you domains. Now when an arcane caster gets access to a domain they get to add those spells on thier spell-list. For a wizard that means they can scribe scrolls of those spells into thier spellbook to learn them. For a sorcerer or bard it means that they can choose from those spells when selecting a spell known. Meanwhile for a warmage it means they can cast them directly (as they can cast anything on thier spell list). For any of these it also means that they can spell compleate for these spells. -James
JamesMaissen 01-27-06, 03:48 AM	It refers specifically to expanding the list, yes. But a truly longsighted view will recognize that an unrestricted expansion of the number of spells available will inevitably lead to the balance problems I mentioned earlier. It should be obvious that the LG campaign has come to recognize the difficulties involved in simply expanding the list for regular casters. What will the effects be for super-specialists like the War Mage? I would argue the exact opposite. The more spells that are added decrease the warmage's relative power rather than increase it. They will not be able to find a niche between the sorcerer and wizard. Advanced learning opportunities (or customizations) are few and far between. You get a 1st, 3rd and 5th level spell baring PrCing delays into your Warmage progression. That's not alot of room to exploit a wide range of options. As it stands just looking at the Complete Arcane and PhB the warmage spell list has a commanding majority of damaging spells. Now if you expand that list greatly, the warmage list by remaining the same will not have such a majority. Depending on how much variation is out there in those spells the warmage looses by not being able to compete in versatility in his own speciality. The sorcerer and most importantly the wizard gain the most from these increases. The warmage is a drop in the bucket compared to either of those classes. Again, I think advanced learning was given to the warmage class to do two things. First it offsets the impact on extra evocation spells from other sources, that was bound to occur (given the nature of the game and how new products are put forth to be sold), by allowing the warmage to partake from them alongside the sorcerer, bard and wizard. Second it gives a degree of customization to the spell list that players tend to desire for thier characters (show me a gamer who's tried to make a character 'typical' rather than 'different'). I think it was a very wise move on the class designer's part. As it currently stands in LG there probably should be a few more 0th and 1st level evocations out there for a warmage to choose from to allow for warmages to vary from one another. As it is there's only dancing lights and tenser's floating disk and that's too few. The 2nd and 3rd level spells give more options, but even they could possibly be expanded upon. As it stands the 3rd level advanced learning is the only one of the three that is likely to show signifigant deviation from a 'standard' pick. And that doesn't sit well with me from a creative standpoint (kind of why I never cared for mystic theurges as an aside). Take care, -James
Paul H 01-27-06, 09:25 AM	Hi Must agree with James. But for Moryath - I wasn't 'forcing' anyone to take extra feat. The Class Ability for Warmages is just a little something extra, not for campaign busting uber munchkins. Is it limited? Yes. Is it supposed to be all encomapsing? No Could it be improved? Probably, though not by much. If you want extra spells that bad, try taking Arcane Disciple or one of the Prestige Classes listed. The idea is not to emulate the (broken) PrC Recaster from Races of Eberron. (Pg 158) In 5 levels you get Eschew Materials, ('sudden') Silent & Still Spell, Quicken Spell, manipulate spacial elements of spells, 2 extra 'Sudden' feats, plus 2 spells from ANY OTHER spell lists. If you want this, try Eberron, Mark of Heroes, not Living Greyhawk. Cheers Changeling Warmage (Mark of heroes)
Lomiat 01-27-06, 09:44 AM	Criminy. If you wanted greater versatility with your Warmage, you should have played a Sorceror, or a Wizard. The class was designed precisely to limit certain instances of versatility in order to help you make things go BOOM better than anyone else can. The Warmage's role in a party is artillery. Plain and simple. As a Warmage, you are not the Flying, Hasting, Debuffing, Buffing, Illusion-casting, Polymorphing Diviner. You're a freaking boomstick. If you don't like being a boomstick, play a different class. The suggestions posted here about how to use PRCs and feats to gain some supplemental access are quite lovely and can let you play a different class, to some extent, without playing an entirely different character. But to complain that the one class feature is too weak because it only lets you pick Tenser's Floating Disc is to ignore that the feature allows you a couple other options later on. Just read it as though it says that at X level you get Tenser's F-ing Disc, and later on you get other spells, and then, voila!, no reason to gripe. You got to add Tenser's Disc to your spell selection--for free!
Paul H 01-27-06, 09:58 AM	Hi "Boomstick"! Indeed! Funny, but strangely, completely accurate! :D Cheers Cleric/Boomstick Player
rbodine 01-27-06, 11:20 AM	I love my warmage. I've played it only to level 5 so far, but while at 3rd level I played a mod at APL 6, and if I hadn't been there with my sonic orb spell, the ice troll would have killed the party. Warmage is a very powerful class in combat. As with anything, it could always be tweaked, but try not to look at the class intellectually. There are several analyses that I could do that would seem to suggest certain class features are weak or useless. However, just observe how a warmage plays out in combat; the class is extremely powerful. To balance this, the class is virtually useless outside pure boomsticking (low skill points; low STR combined with armor). As far as variety goes, I know two others that play a warmage, and the feats we've taken are different, making the three characters different (wand creation v. precise shot v. extra edge). Granted, I don't know what happens beyond 7th level; however, there's no apparent reason to make any great changes to the class, and minor changes would be objected to by as many people as would support them.
shearin69 01-30-06, 11:15 AM	Ok, I read the thread, I have listen to the reasons posted - now for my two cents worth. I have been playing the Warmage since the conception in the miniatures book. Starting with the home game and then in Jan 2005, Living Greyhawk. So let me start with the rule were the Warmage cannot use other non-PHB spell – even if they are core spells, until 3rd level. This was always was thorn in my side. The latest rules (LGCS 4.2) have a footnote in the spell section allowing clerics to use non-PHB spell if they are part of their domain selection. Why not allow at least the signature spells of the Warmage – the Lesser Orbs. As for the advance learning, I learned to deal with it. Having played a Warmage at 11th level for the Green Regent game, I selected the Wall of Force for my third choice. However, with the onset of the Spell Compendium and its rather quick approval from the inner circle, it gave me some joy as NOW, I can get those evocation spells as spotlighted in the Forgotten Realms campaign. By alas my bubble was burst by the announcement that no new spells will be added as core. Least I forget about the FEATS. Sure, I can cast the wonderful Sudden feats, but only in the order I am allowed to get them – yet another footnote in the LGCS 4.2 – that means no LG game will allow a Warmage to get Sudden Maximized as they are to retired prior to earning that feat. To sum up my windings, I thoroughly enjoy playing the arcane artillery – I understand my power is best on a open battlefield, but the thrill of being close but not TOO close to combat is nice. On more than once occasion my Warmage trash the enemy, because I was the only one who could be flexible enough in spell power to do so. I play a human (Suel) with Precise shot, Point Blank range, Improve Ininitive, and Extra spell feat (CA feat that allows a spell caster to gain a spell they would have not otherwise have access to, it a core feat and the spell I chose was also core). I also enjoy the use the Rod of Metamagic (extend). WOOF! Bottom line it still a hell of a character to play and I am still enjoying myself. – hope to see ya’ll at Winter Fantasy . Earl
Ariel23 02-03-06, 11:54 PM	Hi As a regular Warmage player - I realise Warmage's weakness is lack of utility spells. I use Leomund's Tiny Hut. Very useful in extreme weather. Or - if you're from the school of 'I don't take any spell that doesn't kill something......", then Resonating Bolt (SC Pg 174) is on the Core list current LGCS (pg 27). It's a sonic Lightning Bolt. :D Those aren't 1st level spells. Advanced Knowledge at 3rd level should be "Advanced Knowledge of Tenser's Floating Disc".
Iswald 02-04-06, 12:45 AM	Why not allow at least the signature spells of the Warmage – the Lesser Orbs. There's a footnote in the 5.0 draft that says warmages get access to the core non-PHB spells at level 1. It's also listed as an exception in the campaign rules at the end.
shearin69 02-06-06, 01:46 PM	I just read the footnote for the Warmage to get his signature spells at 1st level. Dispite all the belly aching over the New SC book and 5.0, I have to say I am very please to see that some process was made for this class. I reckon I have my character go back to school and teahc the younger upstarts on tacticles and builds (different thread). Thanks to all on this thread for lendign an ear. WOOF! Earl