Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Loignar 01-19-07, 04:49 PM	I am new to LG, but in the homebrew campaigns I have played since 3.0 and 3.5 I have found these feats to be wasted slots. How do they measure up in LG? Does the 'average' LG module combat include numerous low HP enemies?, enough so that you get to use cleave or Gr Cleave on a regular basis?
Alpha_Nerd 01-19-07, 05:05 PM	They aren't worth it at all. There are so many better feats with all the different splat books we have now.
trollbill 01-19-07, 05:10 PM	Cleave is marginally worth it since it will always give you an extra attack after you drop a foe (provided there is another one within reach, which means it works better with Reach weapons). But you will seldom run into large numbers of grunts in LG. So Great Cleave is almost always a waste unless you can team up with a high initiative blaster mage who kicks off area of effect damage spells before you attack. Even then it is questionable you will get much use out of it.
CrystalBlue 01-19-07, 05:11 PM	It's a toss-up, really. I've seen mobs (not the template) of monsters that have low HP. And then I've seen only one BBEG. Making a well-rounded fighter, I would take Great Cleave. Just because a rounded one should be able to handle any encounter. So you power attack for full against big things, and you full BAB a bunch of small things to cleave around. Cleave also works well against rogues that you can hit. Cleave that sneak attacker, then cleave his flanker. ^.^ And with Mighty Cleave, you get to take a 5-foot step. More cleaving. :D I think it's handy, esspecially when you're sans an AoE wizard or sorcerer.
Britt 01-19-07, 05:19 PM	I played a fighter up to 18th level in LG. I found Cleave was extremely worthwhile at low level and Great Cleave was somewhat useful at low levels. As you level, both feats become less worthwhile. Given the number of feats fighters have, Cleave was still worth a feat at high levels. If you had limited feats, such as a non-fighter class character, Cleave might not be worth it beyond the first several levels and Great Cleave would probably never be worth it.
kegdrainer 01-19-07, 05:21 PM	There are few times that great cleave is worth it. a.) large groups of mooks b.) a group that was hurt bad by the spell caster and you are mopping up. c.) against a spellcaster that has Mirror Image going. It will take some time but in this case, you are hoping to miss the bad guy until there are no images left. Combat reflexes would also help so you have more chances of using GC.
Lomiat 01-19-07, 05:43 PM	The best use of Cleave seems to be when a fighter, facing multiple opponents, swings hard at a little MOOK and then Cleaves into the big guy. Don't expect the big guy to fall so that you can swing into a MOOK. That said, the feats vary in their utility from mod to mod, region to region, and even year to year. I think there are some trends that surge with the introduction of new material. In Year 4, my buddy's half-orc barbarian/fighter had Cleave, but all we ever fought were combats with a single, big monster. He took advantage of the Year 5 rebuild to swap out Cleave for Improved Bullrush (to get Shock Trooper). Then, in Year 5, we must have played a string of a half-dozen mods where he could have cleaved all day long. Similarly, my fighter's got the Staggering Strike feat, and as soon as he picked it up, he hit a string of 10 mods in a row where he never had the chance to inflict a single point of sneak damage. Since then, though, he's managed to stagger a bunch of baddies in roughly a half-dozen mods in a row. And that's good because I was really starting to think I'd wasted a precious feat in an already feat-starved build.
Lord Yod 01-19-07, 06:01 PM	My buddy took cleave with his greatsword fighter at level 1, and has gotten use out of it in all but 3 mods. (He's halfway from 6 to 7 now) Of course, that's with a shocktrooper build, so he gets his full-BAB/full-PA nearly every round of every fight. Last time we played, he dealt about 1100 damage total. Without cleave, it would have dropped to around 700 probably. (This was a multi-round adventure) I know other fighters that don't have it and don't miss it, so I think its usefullness is based very much on your style of play.
bitznarf 01-19-07, 07:03 PM	They aren't worth it at all. :mymy: What are you talking about? Cleavage is always good! :D
Genghis Cohen 01-19-07, 07:22 PM	Cleave is one of the most amazing feats at APL2. As you go up in levels, your opponents become more and more spread out. You simply won't be able to cleave very often. I have an 8th level tank with Cleave, and I regret taking the feat. I rarely use it anymore, and I now wish that I had taken Close Quarters Combat instead. I haven't played a chain fighter, so I'm wondering if an enlarged chain fighter at high APLs would be able to make regular use of Cleave.
jhorred 01-19-07, 09:01 PM	Cleave is cool. Especially when enlarged... Great Cleave I don't have but I've never been in a situation to use it if I had it.
jstorrie 01-19-07, 09:22 PM	Absolutely not, unless you need them as prerequisites for a good feat (Three Mountains, &c) or a prestige class (Knight Protector?). For what it gets you, Cleave is not worth a feat slot. If you must take Cleave, at least try to use it with a reach weapon.
Munkwunk 01-20-07, 01:29 AM	The only time I ever saw anyone use Great Cleave was when we were fighting a large number of tiny animated objects (animated swords, to be precise). It was great to have then, but otherwise I've never seen a situation in which it would really be useful. There are occasions where I wish I had Cleave, and they come up every so often, but I've found much better feats for my warrior builds that I make use of more than once per two or three mods. IMO, it would be much more worth it to get the Mighty Cleaving enhanncement on your main melee weapon than it would be to blow a feat on Cleave.
JamesMaissen 01-20-07, 03:15 AM	I am new to LG, but in the homebrew campaigns I have played since 3.0 and 3.5 I have found these feats to be wasted slots. How do they measure up in LG? Does the 'average' LG module combat include numerous low HP enemies?, enough so that you get to use cleave or Gr Cleave on a regular basis? There are builds that can make it work, and work scarily well. But you need to be able to dish out insane damage and then it will be a function of relative reach. If you take an average fighter then cleave and great cleave will behave as other posters have described. It depends on what you want. Look to threads that describe what was coined 'nuke fighters' and you will see builds for great cleave (I liked barbarian fireball.. but c'est la vie). As an example it was just as common to hear people say that character AC mattered less and less at higher levels because the monsters could always hit regardless. Then people made more and more cork characters with ACs of (as a friend of mine coined it) 'nat 20'. Did that mean that everyone before was wrong? Only in part, as in general ACs do get outstriped by monster hitroll as you enter into the midlevels. (N.b. this is ignoring power attack and iterative issues for right now) What it boils down to is that unless you are going to build someone to especially take advantage of it then you will get less return on it than you would like. -James
Sieylianna 01-20-07, 11:42 AM	My 4th level human barbarian/wizard (Going for Eldritch Knight & Arcane Strike) has the Cleave feat and has been able to take advantage of it a few times. It made a big difference in Fane of the Drow when he took out two nasty foes before they could attack. Ed
Akhamshyy 01-20-07, 12:30 PM	Guess I got it the easy way. I have a reach weapon weilding dervish(dervish giving it cleave). I have no worrys of wether it was worth the feat, and all the joys of using it when I get the chance.
Cardinal Teplin 01-21-07, 12:15 PM	Worth what? What do you think feats are for? Cleave helps you attack multiple opponents. Is that what you want? Some people get feats to make their character unusually good at something, others to helps against the toughest situations, others to expand the number of things that their character do with reasonable compentance, and yet more simply because they think a particular feat is cool or fits in with their idea of their character. So it really depends what you want to achieve.
thorinXXX 01-21-07, 01:37 PM	Cleave is usually worth it, especially with a reach weapon. You get an extra attack often enough at low levels. At higher levels don't expect to use it as often, but it is a nice bonus when you can. Great Cleave is not worth it. by the time you can take it there are very few times that you will be able to threaten and drop multiple opponents in the same round.
Hariman 01-22-07, 01:38 AM	Cleave is great. I've seen many a mod where a fighter, paladin, or barbarian with cleave has become a machine because the enemies go down easy. Great Cleave is much more iffy. I've almost never seen a fighter surrounded by mooks. BUT, it's your choice. It could make a good number of encounters much easier. Or it could never get used. Like Razing Strike for a Rogue Wizard. I could take it, but I might never encounter a golem. Cleave = YES. It's a lifesaver at lower levels and a free attack at higher levels. Great Cleave? Maybe.
Redfist 01-22-07, 03:31 AM	I have a 15th level dwarven defender and have cleave. I used it more often at low level but still pretty often at high level. There is nothing wrong with a feat that gives me another 40-70 points of damage (or way more if I crit!). Great Cleave though? Nah - I wouldn't take that at all. It's pretty common for me to get the last hit on creatures. It's not horribly common to get the last hit on many creatures within the same round. It happens, but much more rare.
LGMoses 01-22-07, 03:43 AM	IF I ever get to play again and I feel like playing my barbarian, I'll be getting him to level 3 and taking improved overrun. Just run all over people with my 18 str barbarian. If they stand up I get to attack them with my falchion, that i'll probly hit with, and just mite crit. Ahhh, str 18.
Southernskies 01-22-07, 07:24 AM	There are occasions where I wish I had Cleave, and they come up every so often, but I've found much better feats for my warrior builds that I make use of more than once per two or three mods. IMO, it would be much more worth it to get the Mighty Cleaving enhanncement on your main melee weapon than it would be to blow a feat on Cleave. The mighty cleaving enhancement only works if you already have the Cleave feat. Otherwise everyone would be taking it. Would be handy on a secondary weapon for those times you do find yourself facing a horde (but definately not worth taking Great Cleave in LG).
amnuxoll 01-22-07, 12:03 PM	There are builds that can make it work, and work scarily well. But you need to be able to dish out insane damage and then it will be a function of relative reach. I hate agreeing with James on anything but I fully concur here. Every once in a while you run into a melee PC whose damage output is so hideous that Great Cleave makes a lot of sense. There's a 15th level barbarian (no multiclass!) in my area whom I've nicknamed the "sphere of annhilation". When he made 12th level I advised against him taking Great Cleave. I'm glad he did not take my advice. For those of us with sane PCs Cleave is fairly useful but Great Cleave is a waste. :AMN:
Loignar 01-22-07, 12:14 PM	So, I take it from the posts above these feats hold about the same value in LG as my home campaign...........cleave is great low-levels, good for a few builds in the mid and high levels, and grt cleave is only good for the rare uber damage builds in the high levels. Thanks everyone for the input.