Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Emirikol 06-29-06, 03:04 PM	In Living Greyhawk, are player characters able to create new rules that allow them to mount holy symbols (or paint them on, or sew on a patch to their T-shirt?) and ignore the casting rules that say that you must have a free hand and "manipulate" your holy symbol in order to cast a spell requiring a DF? Are they allowed to create new items (i.e. Holy symbol patch on your T-shirt rather than the PHB item) that allow them to supercede core rules? Are they allowed to cast spells requiring a DF while holding a heavy shield and mace? jh
Lomiat 06-29-06, 03:45 PM	In Living Greyhawk, are player characters able to create new rules that allow them to mount holy symbols (or paint them on, or sew on a patch to their T-shirt?) and ignore the casting rules that say that you must have a free hand and "manipulate" your holy symbol in order to cast a spell requiring a DF? Are they allowed to create new items (i.e. Holy symbol patch on your T-shirt rather than the PHB item) that allow them to supercede core rules? Are they allowed to cast spells requiring a DF while holding a heavy shield and mace? jh In order: No. No. Don't know.
Simpi 06-29-06, 04:31 PM	In order: No. No. Don't know. 3rd: No. See FAQ (or was it errata) regarding this. Essentially they must be able to somehow hold the DF in their hand. Heavy shield does not allow this but buckler does. Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad
Emirikol 06-29-06, 06:01 PM	Thanks guys, I thought I was just going crazy because it seemed every cleric/paladin/druid/ranger in my region was pulling this crap. "No man, I've got my holy symbol splotched onto my shield with paint so I can do everything" "No dude, I've got my holy symbol bolted to my shield so I can do everything" or worse "Uhm..holy symbol...yea, it's here somewhere." A light shield or buckler can be 'loosed' and hold an item. Does that include doing somatics and 'manipulating' the divine focus? jh ..
JJeff 06-29-06, 09:04 PM	I believe the DF need only be presented or touched to the target (what I believe must be done for cases when the Arcane focus is touched to a target, like Stone Shape, but this is just my opinion) when casting. You don't really 'manipulate' the DF, I believe. Just hold it in one hand, shout out mumbo-jumbo, shake the DF around and *poof*, you get effects.
ithardin 06-29-06, 11:55 PM	So what about Moradin, who's symbol is a hammer? Could a cleric of Moradin's holy symbol also be his warhammer? I have a brand new PC (2nd level) who is a cleric of Moradin. The LG Deities document says Moradin's holy symbol is a hammer and anvil. I have been RPing that he has his warhammer in one hand, and a hand-held anvil in the other and that he strikes them together to create the divine focus. Am I out of line doing this? I also have him using the hammer/anvil in the mornings as part of his prayers, hitting the anvil so as to use it as a metronome.
Simpi 06-30-06, 12:53 AM	So what about Moradin, who's symbol is a hammer? Could a cleric of Moradin's holy symbol also be his warhammer? I have a brand new PC (2nd level) who is a cleric of Moradin. The LG Deities document says Moradin's holy symbol is a hammer and anvil. I have been RPing that he has his warhammer in one hand, and a hand-held anvil in the other and that he strikes them together to create the divine focus. Am I out of line doing this? If the anvil does nothing else than be essentially your divine focus, I don't see problems with that. Just keep it within rules (= you hand with anvil holds divine focus and is not free for anything else) and most DMs should be ok with it. There is a special weapon out there that functions as holy symbol (though the deity is not Moradin). S.
Siriak 06-30-06, 08:43 AM	I agree that some players are always trying to push the rules to the limit but also be advised that treasure items do appear from time to time on ARs that are specifically listed as fulfilling the role of a holy symbol in addition to some other useful role such as a weapon. Vince Thanks guys, I thought I was just going crazy because it seemed every cleric/paladin/druid/ranger in my region was pulling this crap. ..
Lupo 06-30-06, 11:39 AM	If the anvil does nothing else than be essentially your divine focus, I don't see problems with that. Just keep it within rules (= you hand with anvil holds divine focus and is not free for anything else) and most DMs should be ok with it. There is a special weapon out there that functions as holy symbol (though the deity is not Moradin). S. quick check through the "deities document" yielded some deities with holy symbols that MIGHT be used as weapon or shield or armor or clothing. BUT as the holy symbol is a SYMBOL, not the item itself, i wouldn't allow such dual-use. the weapon that serves as a holy symbol is a special reward from the now retired adventure "sympathy for the baatezu". ciao martin m. n.b. Fortubo has a specific description allowing EVERY hammer to be used as holy symbol. so play more clerics of fortubo (electable for dwarves and humans (suel)).
Namarus 06-30-06, 12:01 PM	the weapon that serves as a holy symbol is a special reward from the now retired adventure "sympathy for the baatezu". Not true. It can still be picked up in a certain active core adventure.
ithardin 06-30-06, 12:48 PM	I do keep a holy symbol in my inventory for judges whose rules are that you have to use the symbol (then I just stow the anvil and use the holy symbol in my other hand in its place). You have to admire the craftiness of players in this though. When I read the thread I remember hearing the "its attached to my shield" explanation and thinking nothing of it at the moment. This thread (and the other about potion/scroll pulling) have really made me examine my own DM style. I think in the future I will take 5 minutes to explain more fully those things to players so that they will know how I will judge the table.
Iswald 07-01-06, 09:51 AM	A light shield or buckler can be 'loosed' and hold an item. Does that include doing somatics and 'manipulating' the divine focus? You can hold items in your hand when you are using a light shield, so you shouldn't need to loose it to use a holy symbol. You certainly shouldn't need to loose a buckler since you're not using your hand with it. I don't see why you should have to hold the divine focus in your hand. It should be enough to have it on a chain around your neck or hanging from a belt (think about rosaries and crosses that many Catholic priests use). As long as you can touch or hold onto it while you are casting the spell, it shouldn't be a problem (unless the spell description says otherwise).
nckestrel 07-21-06, 11:12 AM	Divine Focus just says the caster must have the item. Same as material components. However, clerics have no special rule I know of that allows them to ignore Somatic components, defined as having a hand free. Cure Light Wounds. Components: V, S requires a hand free to cast the spell. Bless. Components: V, S, DF requies the divine focus be on the character, and a hand free (not necessarily holding the focus) to cast the spell. Because of this, a cleric should not be able to cast a spell with a S component when wielding a shield and mace, regardless of where the divine focus is or isn't. Divine Focus (DF): A divine focus component is an item of spiritual significance. The divine focus for a cleric or a paladin is a holy symbol appropriate to the character’s faith. For an evil cleric, the divine focus is an unholy symbol. The default divine focus for a druid or a ranger is a sprig of mistletoe or holly. Somatic (S): A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand. You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component. The only reference to Divine Focus in the MAIN3.5FAQ is for Vow of Poverty and not having a DF at all. There are no references to Divine Focus in the PHB Errata.
trollbill 07-21-06, 11:21 AM	How does this work if you have your mace on a laniard (as is commonly depicted)? Dropping it would be a Free action, which would allow you to cast the spell. But what does it take to Ready a weapon that is simply hanging from a laniard around your wrist? Another Free action, or as much time as it takes to unhook it from your belt (i.e. Move action or part of a Move if you have a +1 BAB or greater)?
Iswald 07-21-06, 12:53 PM	Because of this, a cleric should not be able to cast a spell with a S component when wielding a shield and mace, regardless of where the divine focus is or isn't. To me, it seems like your hand is free when you use a light shield. It would definitely be free with a buckler.
Namarus 07-21-06, 04:13 PM	Are they allowed to cast spells requiring a DF while holding a heavy shield and mace?jh Nothing in the rules says you have to hold it to cast your spells.
kenobi65 07-21-06, 05:13 PM	Nothing in the rules says you have to hold it to cast your spells. I believe you are mistaken: To cast a spell, you must be able to speak (if the spell has a verbal component), gesture (if it has a somatic component), and manipulate the material components or focus (if any). If you don't have a free hand (the OP's example of a mace in one hand and a heavy shield in the other), you can't manipulate the focus. Note that this kind of qualifies as a trick question, because the rule about manipulating doesn't appear under the section on spell components; it's at the very beginning of the chapter, under "Choosing a spell."
Arvagor 07-22-06, 02:11 AM	How does this work if you have your mace on a laniard (as is commonly depicted)? Dropping it would be a Free action, which would allow you to cast the spell. But what does it take to Ready a weapon that is simply hanging from a laniard around your wrist? Another Free action, or as much time as it takes to unhook it from your belt (i.e. Move action or part of a Move if you have a +1 BAB or greater)?With the possible exception of the sling, none of the weapon illustrations in the PHB are depicted with anything resembling a lanyard. Likewise, nowhere am I aware of a piece of equipment that you may purchase that provides the same functionality, so a player stating he is using one falls in the realm of the original topic of the thread, namely a player inventing a new rule. IMO, readying a dropped weapon remains a move action, until such time as a LG-legal sourcebook introduces a lanyard that allows readying the "dropped" weapon as a free action...
Emirikol 07-22-06, 08:44 PM	How does this work if you have your mace on a laniard (as is commonly depicted)? Dropping it would be a Free action, which would allow you to cast the spell. But what does it take to Ready a weapon that is simply hanging from a laniard around your wrist? Another Free action, or as much time as it takes to unhook it from your belt (i.e. Move action or part of a Move if you have a +1 BAB or greater)? That would fall under "sheath a weapon" (AOO). Unsheathing is free action. I've never seen a laniard in the PHB that allows an action to supercede normal rules, so it would be a new rules item that you would have to get a special AR for. Thoughts? jh
nckestrel 07-24-06, 10:50 AM	To me, it seems like your hand is free when you use a light shield. It would definitely be free with a buckler. But is there a rule that states such? This is the Living Greyhawk forum, not a home campaign discussion. SRD Light Shield description You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A light shield’s weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it. It says nothing about it counting as having a hand free for spellcasting. Somatic components are not just carrying something in the hand. SRD Buckler description This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a -1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don’t get the buckler’s AC bonus for the rest of the round. Again, nothing about counting as a free hand for spellcasting. It specifically refers to weapon use and only weapon use. As the original post states, any other ruling is making a new rule. Unless you have an offical rule somewhere that states otherwise?
GorTeX 07-24-06, 12:51 PM	Since you can carry, but not use, a weapon in you light shield hand, you should be able to freely move your mace to your shield hand to cast. Buckler is even eaiser. You can decide to use a weapon 1 or 2 handed as a free action..just move the weapon to your buckler hand to cast (most DM's probably would let you use the buckler hand to cast, I"d think)
DuctShuiTengu 07-24-06, 03:29 PM	But is there a rule that states such? This is the Living Greyhawk forum, not a home campaign discussion. SRD Light Shield description You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A light shield’s weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it. It says nothing about it counting as having a hand free for spellcasting. Somatic components are not just carrying something in the hand. SRD Buckler description This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a -1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don’t get the buckler’s AC bonus for the rest of the round. Again, nothing about counting as a free hand for spellcasting. It specifically refers to weapon use and only weapon use. As the original post states, any other ruling is making a new rule. Unless you have an offical rule somewhere that states otherwise? The rules never come out and say that having nothing in your hands counts as them being free for spellcasting either. Frustrating as it can be sometimes, there are a few parts that you just have to figure out for yourself, even in Living Greyhawk. (Though I'll agree that the Light Shield does offer a rather serious grey area)
Paul H 07-24-06, 06:40 PM	Hi Personally, I believe that someone could use their off hand to cast a spell when it has a buckler strapped on. This is because you can still wield a weapon (losing buckler bonus), and some spells count as weapons. You'd still lose your Buckler bonus, though. (Believe it should be move equiv. to 're-arm' your buckler). As to DF - my cleric carries his round his neck, though he does keep his main hand free for somantic spells. (He's Cleric/Warmage). Of course, there are some weapons which you could still wield while casting somantic spells: Spiked Gauntlet? Unarmed Strike, plus some spells, like Fist of Stone. As to DF on shileds etc. I've seen that plenty times before, but not in LG. In those cases (including my own characters), the shields were not standard treasure, and only from the equipment lists from the 'non-basic' books. (Think one had Empower Turning on the shield, or some such). Cheers Paul H
kenobi65 07-24-06, 08:40 PM	Personally, I believe that someone could use their off hand to cast a spell when it has a buckler strapped on. I don't think anyone here's debating bucklers. It's light shields that seem questionable.
Emirikol 07-26-06, 07:54 PM	I don't think anyone here's debating bucklers. It's light shields that seem questionable. Could someone here see if this can be sent to WotC to be put on the FAQ or something? How does that process happen and how often does the FAQ come out? As the guy playing the war mage noted, this seems like it could be pretty important..the same would apply to multi-class bards and others using shields and weapons at the same time. jh
Arvagor 07-26-06, 08:38 PM	There's no need; the question has already been answered in the FAQ (pg.7, v.7/19/06), which is why I was wondering why people were continuing to debate it... ;) My DM says that my cleric has to drop his morningstar to cast spells. Is he right? Yes and no. To cast a spell with a somatic (S) component, you must gesture freely with at least one hand. (Player’s Handbook, page 140) A cleric (or any caster, for that matter) who holds a weapon in one hand and wears a heavy shield on the other arm doesn’t have a hand free to cast a spell with a somatic component (which includes most spells in the game). To cast such a spell, the character must either drop or sheathe his weapon. Another simple option is for the cleric to carry a buckler or light shield instead of a heavy shield. The buckler leaves one hand free for spellcasting, and you don’t even lose the buckler’s shield bonus to AC when casting with that hand. The light shield doesn’t give you a free hand for spellcasting, but since you can hold an item in the same hand that holds the light shield, you could switch your weapon to that hand to free up a hand for spellcasting. (You can’t use the weapon while it’s held in the same hand as your shield, of course.) The rules don’t state what type of action is required to switch hands on a weapon, but it seems reasonable to assume that it’s the equivalent of drawing a weapon (a move action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity).So in a nutshell, If you're carrying a heavy shield, sheath your weapon to cast If you're carrying a light shield, switch your weapon to your shield hand to cast If you're carrying a buckler, cast with your shield handAnd obviously, none of these are required if the spell does not require somatic (S) components, nor a focus (F) or divine focus (DF) to be manipulated.
Emirikol 07-27-06, 01:47 PM	So how about Tower shields? Do they stand up on their own ? ;) jh
clannagh 08-07-06, 02:27 AM	I suspect the only viable use of a holy symbol attached to a shield or a buckler is to fend off vampires. To keep a vampire at bay you need to "present" the symbol. Even then some DM's may interpret "present" as "hold symbol in your hand with arm stretched out evangelist style like in a horror movie". Personally, unless I see an FAQ or RPGA clarification to state otherwise (or a very good counter argument) I will continue with my current policy which is: - I allow a holy symbol on a buckler or shield to be "presented" to creatures like vampires. - casting using the divine symbol attached to a buckler or shield is not possible. - I allow clerics to cast with a divine symbol held in the buckler hand. Unless the spell is a melee attack they retain the buckler bonus. If the spell constitutes a melee attack they loose the buckler bonus. (this is for consisty for ranged and melee weapon use with the buckler hand)
Arvagor 08-07-06, 02:51 AM	The 3.5 FAQ is silent on the issue, but there was a question in the 3.0 FAQ that sort of dealt with the issue: Many cleric spells have both a somatic component and a divine focus. With a somatic component you must have a free hand to cast, but what about a spell with a divine focus? Do you need to have a divine focus in your hand to cast spells? Could a divine focus be worn around you neck? Or do clerics just need both hands to cast spells? Any character needs one free hand to cast a spell with a somatic component, no matter what other components the spell has. In the case of a divine focus, it is sufficient to simply wear the focus (usually a holy symbol). Other kinds of focus components are manipulated during spellcasting along with any material components the spell has, or they are simply carried on the caster’s person.
clannagh 08-07-06, 02:56 AM	The 3.5 FAQ is silent on the issue, but there was a question in the 3.0 FAQ that sort of dealt with the issue: In which case the only issue is whether a divine focus such as a holy symbol attached to a shield or buckler constitutes it being "worn".
Emirikol 08-08-06, 11:36 AM	In which case the only issue is whether a divine focus such as a holy symbol attached to a shield or buckler constitutes it being "worn". The problem there is that you still need to drop your weapon to manipulate the item, just like any other spell component. Sure, you can strap a wooden or silver holy symbol to your shield, but you've still got to physically touch it (i.e. manipulate the item). I suppose if you hold your mace with your light shield or buckler hand (as the FAQ clarifies), you could pull a 'reach-around' to the holy symbol and do a neener-neener to the undead. A druid-wizard could then do the same thing with all his spell components too. His shield would be a virtual cornucopia of holly, mistletoe, feathers, silver mirrors, powdered diamond dust and spiders that could be chewed off like some kind of greek-money system. ;) jh
clannagh 08-14-06, 07:18 PM	The problem there is that you still need to drop your weapon to manipulate the item, just like any other spell component. Sure, you can strap a wooden or silver holy symbol to your shield, but you've still got to physically touch it (i.e. manipulate the item). I suppose if you hold your mace with your light shield or buckler hand (as the FAQ clarifies), you could pull a 'reach-around' to the holy symbol and do a neener-neener to the undead. A druid-wizard could then do the same thing with all his spell components too. His shield would be a virtual cornucopia of holly, mistletoe, feathers, silver mirrors, powdered diamond dust and spiders that could be chewed off like some kind of greek-money system. ;) jh I am assuming the reason you can "wear" a holy symbol is it would otherwise make casting a spell with a divine focus and also a material component something of a contortion act. its not really a big issue as divine focus is so cheap people can wear one around their neck to cast with and mount a second one on the shield for "presenting to undead".
Emirikol 08-17-06, 08:13 PM	I am assuming the reason you can "wear" a holy symbol is it would otherwise make casting a spell with a divine focus and also a material component something of a contortion act. It seems to add to the drama. Nothing sounds so bad as "oops, I dropped my holy symbol." ;) jh