Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lightblade 10-24-06, 10:54 AM	I've got a question for some people, and I expect it to be one of those "table variation" things. Can a cleric of Kenalen use natural weapons without violating the tenets of his faith? Specifically, my centaur plans to follow Kenalen, and i was wondering about the hoof attacks. The lg dieties document says "wielding" a non-sword is a gross violation. Wielding sounds to me like using a manufactured weapon, so my initial thought was that hoof attacks were ok. Of course, when i discussed my plan, a judge at a recent con thought differently. Also, if hoof attacks are illegal, wouldn't that also rule out unarmed strikes? Are clerics of Kenalen forbidden from throwing punches in bar fights?
kenobi65 10-24-06, 11:28 AM	1) It's Kelanen, not Kenalen. Your deity hates it when you misspell his name. ;) 2) Kelanen isn't exactly known for being reasonable about that sword restriction. One could try to argue semantics about the word "wield", but you're still violating the spirit of the restriction. I know that I, as a DM, would enforce that one on you. (Note that, later in that same paragraph in the Deities document: "Repeated use of weapons other than those permitted is considered a gross violation of the code of conduct." No use of the word "wield" there.) 3) Find yourself in a barroom brawl? Use the flat of your blade.
Iswald 10-24-06, 11:34 AM	I've got a question for some people, and I expect it to be one of those "table variation" things. Can a cleric of Kenalen use natural weapons without violating the tenets of his faith? Specifically, my centaur plans to follow Kenalen, and i was wondering about the hoof attacks. The lg dieties document says "wielding" a non-sword is a gross violation. Wielding sounds to me like using a manufactured weapon, so my initial thought was that hoof attacks were ok. Of course, when i discussed my plan, a judge at a recent con thought differently. Also, if hoof attacks are illegal, wouldn't that also rule out unarmed strikes? Are clerics of Kenalen forbidden from throwing punches in bar fights? Of course they wouldn't punch people in a bar fight! They'd reverse their sword or dagger and pummel them. It's just another opportunity for them to demonstrate their superior weapon skills. As a judge, I wouldn't care if they fight unarmed, unless they are doing it all the time or doing so when they could be using a sword. It would be tricky to wield a sword with your hoofs, so I wouldn't expect a centaur to do so. Just make sure they are also using a sword as their primary attack and hoofs as secondary attacks.
Iswald 10-24-06, 11:43 AM	2) Kelanen isn't exactly known for being reasonable about that sword restriction. One could try to argue semantics about the word "wield", but you're still violating the spirit of the restriction. I know that I, as a DM, would enforce that one on you. (Note that, later in that same paragraph in the Deities document: "Repeated use of weapons other than those permitted is considered a gross violation of the code of conduct." No use of the word "wield" there.) One of the goals of using the sword all the time is to 'master the self'. Using hoof attacks is natural for centaurs and part and parcel to being oneself. In this case, I'd say it would be ok. For casters using magic or abilities that change them into something else (wild shape, polymorph, alter self, etc.), I don't think it would work out as well if they didn't continue to fight with a sword. Polymorphing into a troglodyte for the AC and fighting with a sword, not the claw and bite attacks should be safe. If you started to use the claw and bite attacks, I don't think you'd be following the spirit of Kelanen's strictures. Changing into a bear to attack would be bad.
zoinks69 10-24-06, 01:12 PM	Sounds like you can expect some table variation :) Personally, I'd have to wonder why a centaur is following Kelanen and then going around stomping everything flat. At a guess, you'll be taking up the Great Falchion, which is an awesome enough weapon to make the natural attacks unnecessary (my opinion). From my perspective both in and out of game, Kelanen is rather strict about using other weapons as a tradeoff for granting access to a great and a good domain (and no others) and giving a long list of favored weapons. As such, you should expect to encounter problems as a centaur and as a PC using something other than a sword in melee.
Lightblade 10-24-06, 01:26 PM	Actually, i picked the great scimitar. Great Falchion is actually not one of Kelanen's favored weapons, since it is exotic. (Like the bastard sword, the great scimitar can be wielded two-handed as a martial weapon, making it ok). A level of Exotic Weapon Master for Uncanny blow lies in that character's future. zoink69, you seem to think that my PC wants to use hoof attacks instead using a sword. As secondary attacks, they'd happen if i full attacked after I used the sword.
Arvagor 10-24-06, 01:45 PM	Actually, i picked the great scimitar. Great Falchion is actually not one of Kelanen's favored weapons, since it is exotic. (Like the bastard sword, the great scimitar can be wielded two-handed as a martial weapon, making it ok).Perhaps it is not considered "favored" but it would be permitted; re-read the Kelanen entry in the deities document, and you'll see that anything that can be considered a "blade, sword, scimitar, dagger, or crossbow" is allowed (the examples given are elven lightblades and thinblades (from RotW), and the khopesh (A&EG, Sand) and sapara (A&EG), all of which are exotic weapons). But then, since we know no one chooses weapons/items/classes based on flavor, but mechanics instead, you'd lose out on the Weapon Focus granted by the War domain... ;)
_m_ 10-25-06, 01:28 AM	But then, since we know no one chooses weapons/items/classes based on flavor, but mechanics instead, you'd lose out on the Weapon Focus granted by the War domain... ;) are you paying out my small sized wizard with his large sized longspear? or maybe my (pointless) lucky ring, or my 10000g warship? :D flavour items ftw.
Arvagor 10-25-06, 01:56 AM	are you paying out my small sized wizard with his large sized longspear? or maybe my (pointless) lucky ring, or my 10000g warship? :D flavour items ftw.FWIW, the quality of my sarcasm may not be over the highest caliber, but it is still there regardless... I applaud you for buying flavor items, and I bemoan the fact that more people don't do it; they might actually create a true character concept, as opposed to a set of character mechanics. Every time I see a post that begins, "I have this really cool concept that's never been done before -- the PC is a spiked chain tripper who (blah, blah, blah) ...", I just about cry... :allalone: Arvagor (Who, among other things, will not be taking Natural Spell for his druid, the same druid who spent 2 skill points at 2nd level so he could speak Olman -- how's that for non-optimization?! ;) )
_m_ 10-25-06, 02:08 AM	FWIW, the quality of my sarcasm may not be over the highest caliber, but it is still there regardless... I applaud you for buying flavor items, and I bemoan the fact that more people don't do it; they might actually create a true character concept, as opposed to a set of character mechanics. Every time I see a post that begins, "I have this really cool concept that's never been done before -- the PC is a spiked chain tripper who (blah, blah, blah) ...", I just about cry... :allalone: Arvagor (Who, among other things, will not be taking Natural Spell for his druid, the same druid who spent 2 skill points at 2nd level so he could speak Olman -- how's that for non-optimization?! ;) ) omgwtf noob you wasted 2 skill points!? *grin* as long as the toon functions (ie. dosent drag the part down), i think that a fair chunk the non essentials should be put in flavour junk, its just more fun. and now, favorite d&d related quote of the day: "oh little icecream friends! Thog delays boredom-driven rampage only for you"
gomeztoo 10-25-06, 09:46 AM	"oh little icecream friends! Thog delays boredom-driven rampage only for you" My favorite would be: "Resisting arrest is fun!" *decapitate* (it works better if you see the pictures) I have to say that I am on two thoughts with this one. On the one hand, kicking ot hitting seems 'natural'. On the other hand, to a sword master, it would be a very 'vulgar' means of fighting. I would likely allow it in an emergency. Gomez
Mommy was an Orc 10-25-06, 04:04 PM	Also, if hoof attacks are illegal, wouldn't that also rule out unarmed strikes? Are clerics of Kenalen forbidden from throwing punches in bar fights? I think that's the guide for the ruling - would Kelanen allow a Monk/Fighter/Pious Templar to use TWF to wield say a Greatsword and kick at the same time? I don't think he would. Now admittedly, a human doesn't naturally have a hoof attack, but before he was a Pious Templar of Kelanen, he did have a natural attack, just as the Centaur did.
_m_ 10-25-06, 07:40 PM	ok, what if you do the 'knife-in-the-boot' thing. attach a small blade to your horseshoe (i dunno, treat it like a spiked gauntlet for your feet), then hit with the flat in the bar fight situation. it will just do spiked gauntlet or armour spike damage insted of standard hoof damage.
clannagh 10-25-06, 08:51 PM	M just because you blew money on a ship doesnt make your int 25 geometer/shadow wizzie non combat focussed. As for the original topic bare are in mind that the Kelanen war domain weapon focus only applies to the bastard sword when it is swung two handed. As soon as you pick up a bastard sword in one hand it becomes exotic and you loose the focus. If the great scimitar works like a bastard sword you also would lose the weapon focus one handed. An interesting possible exception to this is dwarven waraxes swung one handed by dwarfs.
_m_ 10-25-06, 09:15 PM	M just because you blew money on a ship doesnt make your int 25 geometer/shadow wizzie non combat focussed. As for the original topic bare are in mind that the Kelanen war domain weapon focus only applies to the bastard sword when it is swung two handed. As soon as you pick up a bastard sword in one hand it becomes exotic and you loose the focus. If the great scimitar works like a bastard sword you also would lose the weapon focus one handed. An interesting possible exception to this is dwarven waraxes swung one handed by dwarfs. lowercase m. read the sig silly. the point i was making earlier, is that as long as you are still combat effective, you should be spending some of your money on flavor text. but yeah, id never build something that was too flavour focused, to the extent that it sucked in combat.
Lightblade 10-26-06, 11:04 AM	As for the original topic bare are in mind that the Kelanen war domain weapon focus only applies to the bastard sword when it is swung two handed. As soon as you pick up a bastard sword in one hand it becomes exotic and you loose the focus. If the great scimitar works like a bastard sword you also would lose the weapon focus one handed. This is interesting, and not at all what i would have thought. Can anyone confirm this?
RedKnightofKet 10-26-06, 12:05 PM	Yep. Check the LG Dieties document - Kelanen's favoured weapon is any martial sword. Using the bastard Sword as a one-handed weapon requires EWP, which classifies it as exotic. Doesn't mean that you don't have a whole host of other weapons to choose from - but I would rule you pick one when you start the character.
Lightblade 10-26-06, 12:50 PM	No, that much i knew. My question was: does getting the feat Weapon Focus: Great Scimitar from the war domain only apply to the weapon in it's martial (ie two-handed) use? For example, if i wanted to pick up Exotic Weapon Master (great scimitar), would I not be able to use weapon focus from the war domain, since i need weapon focus in the exotic form? That really doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Edit: I want to differeciate proficiency (which i know applies only to the marial use) with focus (which i assumed would work if i wielded it one or two handed).
RedKnightofKet 10-26-06, 02:15 PM	Well, this looks like one of those fuzzy rules where it's difficult to interpret. Nevertheless, here is my interpretation: Since Kelanen will only give you Weapon focus in a "martial" sword, I don't think you can benefit from it as an "exotic" sword when it comes to Exotic Weapons Master. To me, that's pure cheese/loose interpretation of the rules, and I won't allow it at my tables. You can't get a free feat in a weapon in it's martial state (War domain), then suddenly use that to count for exotic (EWM). Sorry, but I would suggest to just go with an actual martial sword, and avoid the confusion.
Lightblade 10-26-06, 03:17 PM	Ok. Here's the deal. I have taken the Exotic Weapon Proficency (Great Scimitar) feat, as one of my standard feats. The war domain gives will Martial Weapon Proficency (Great Scimitar), which i don't have yet, as well as Weapon Focus (Great Scimitar). I don't see how Weapon Focus (Great Scimitar) is different between the martial and exotic forms. I'm not trying to qualify for EWM with just the War Domain, but i've been assuming that Weapon focus (Great Scimitar) works if i hold the weapon with one or two hands, just as it would with, say, a longsword.
Lightblade 10-26-06, 04:27 PM	Ok, one more example to illustrate my point of view. Say i'm a cleric of kelanen, that choses short sword for my weapon proficency and focus. I then take the EWP(Broadblade Sword) feat. The weapon focus will carry over to the broadblade sword, even though it is a different, exotic weapon, correct? If so, how would weapon focus not work for the *same* weapon if i hold it with one less hand?
DuctShuiTengu 10-26-06, 04:48 PM	Ok, one more example to illustrate my point of view. Say i'm a cleric of kelanen, that choses short sword for my weapon proficency and focus. I then take the EWP(Broadblade Sword) feat. The weapon focus will carry over to the broadblade sword, even though it is a different, exotic weapon, correct? If so, how would weapon focus not work for the *same* weapon if i hold it with one less hand? Honestly, I could make an arguement that you can't use the Weapon Proficiency and Weapon Focus from the war domain for the Great Scimitar at all. Per the RAW, a Great Scimitar is an exotic weapon. While it can be used two-handed as though it were a martial weapon, it isn't one. Kelanen's Favored Weapon specificly restricts you to martial swords. Therefor, while Kelanen won't kick you out of the priesthood for using a Great Scimitar, it's not an acceptable weapon for the War Domain benefits..
Lightblade 10-26-06, 07:51 PM	Kelanen's Favored Weapon specificly restricts you to martial swords. Therefor, while Kelanen won't kick you out of the priesthood for using a Great Scimitar, it's not an acceptable weapon for the War Domain benefits.. Page 2 of the LG Dieties Document 2.0: "Any martial sword (m) indicates a short sword, longsword, greatsword, falchion, scimitar, and rapier. It also indicates any other weapon that is bost defined as a sword and a martial weapon; thus a bastard sword wielded two-handed meets this definition." In the description of the great scimitar: "You can use a great scimitar two-handed as a martial weapon". Looks like I can get the War domain benefits for it to me.
RedKnightofKet 10-26-06, 07:58 PM	Page 2 of the LG Dieties Document 2.0: "Any martial sword (m) indicates a short sword, longsword, greatsword, falchion, scimitar, and rapier. It also indicates any other weapon that is bost defined as a sword and a martial weapon; thus a bastard sword wielded two-handed meets this definition." In the description of the great scimitar: "You can use a great scimitar two-handed as a martial weapon". Looks like I can get the War domain benefits for it to me. You get the benefit as long as you weild it with two hands. If you swing with one hand, bye-bye +1. Also, for purposes of the Exotic Weapon Master Prestige Class, you DON'T have Weapon Focus in an exotic weapon.
clannagh 10-26-06, 08:11 PM	This has been argued in the past ad-infinitum concerning the bastard sword and kelanen. I had a cleric of Kelanen with EWP bastard sword so I paid particular attention to the discussion. Expect some table variation. The way I personally would GM it is you can USE a great scimitar without upsetting Kelanen because after all it is both a martial and exotic weapon ... however when you use it one hand it is in its exotic mode and you loose the +1 WF at those times you swing it one handed. You clearly do not have weapon focus in an exotic weapon for PrC. If yu proceed with your interpretation be prepared for a lot of GM's to see it differently and just accept it gracefully if they knock you back for that particualr game. If you think thats bad trying try to work out a dwarven cleric of Gendwar Agrim swinging a dwarven waraxe. The diety weapon is dwarven waraxe "exotic" however "dwarves may treat dwarven waraxes and dwarven urgroshes as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons" .. so clearly two handed the dwarf loses the focus (martial wepaon) but does a dwarf swinging a dwarven waraxe one handed get the focus or not ? I would argue that he does because it is "treated" as martial but is ACTUALLY exotic .. but again expect table variation.
Arvagor 10-26-06, 08:25 PM	If you think thats bad trying try to work out a dwarven cleric of Gendwar Agrim swinging a dwarven waraxe. The diety weapon is dwarven waraxe "exotic" however "dwarves may treat dwarven waraxes and dwarven urgroshes as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons" .. so clearly two handed the dwarf loses the focus (martial wepaon) but does a dwarf swinging a dwarven waraxe one handed get the focus or not ? I would argue that he does because it is "treated" as martial but is ACTUALLY exotic .. but again expect table variation.Luckily for you, Gendwar doesn't place the same restrictions on weapons that Kelanen does. He illustrates an interesting point though... Namely, unless a dwarven cleric of Gendwar takes the War domain, he still won't be proficient with the dwarven waraxe. Clerics are only proficient with "all simple weapons"; dwarves treat the dwarven waraxe as a martial weapon, which means their clerics aren't proficient with it...
RedKnightofKet 10-26-06, 08:26 PM	If you think thats bad trying try to work out a dwarven cleric of Gendwar Agrim swinging a dwarven waraxe. The diety weapon is dwarven waraxe "exotic" however "dwarves may treat dwarven waraxes and dwarven urgroshes as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons" .. so clearly two handed the dwarf loses the focus (martial wepaon) but does a dwarf swinging a dwarven waraxe one handed get the focus or not ? I would argue that he does because it is "treated" as martial but is ACTUALLY exotic .. but again expect table variation. I think you're dealing with a different kettle of fish with Gendwar Argrim - with Argrim and the War domain, you get Weapon Focus in his favoured weapon - which is the Dwarven War Axe. The "(e)" listed for the exotic nature of the weapon is used to identify which category it may be found in. When you're dealing with Kelanen's multitude of weapons, the martial part is mentioned outside of the parenthesis.
retro 10-26-06, 09:38 PM	Ok. Here's the deal. I have taken the Exotic Weapon Proficency (Great Scimitar) feat, as one of my standard feats. The war domain gives will Martial Weapon Proficency (Great Scimitar), which i don't have yet, as well as Weapon Focus (Great Scimitar). I don't see how Weapon Focus (Great Scimitar) is different between the martial and exotic forms. I'm not trying to qualify for EWM with just the War Domain, but i've been assuming that Weapon focus (Great Scimitar) works if i hold the weapon with one or two hands, just as it would with, say, a longsword. Bear in mind that, to qualify for Weapon Focus with a particular weapon, a character must be proficient with that weapon. In order to gain the benefit of Weapon Focus (Great Scimitar) when using a gs one-handed, a character must be proficient with the gs as an exotic weapon. I would rule that to gain the Weapon Focus benefit with a one-handed great Scimitar a PC must have both MWP and EWP with the great scimitar, which your character has.