Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Cynric 06-11-06, 07:55 AM	I am thinking of taking Leadership at level 12 with my druid. I am not worried about the -2 to my score from animal companion due to a great renown bonus I picked up. To use that bonus it has to be a non lawful cohort but that does not bother me. I am not sure what sort of cohort to take however. So far I am thinking of an archer occoult slayer or an arcane caster. Another option is a cleric or BDF as there seems to be a distinct lack of them around. Any suggestions?
PaulH 06-12-06, 09:56 PM	Hi That would depend on what access you've got, both in items & cohorts. I've got a Dakon, from a retired mod, but been unable to play him so far. (15 scenarios ago)! He's armed with a Kuo Toan pincer staff. With only a 25 pt buy for your cohorts - access to some 'specials' is recommended. Of course - your stats & first class are already decided. My Dakon had (at 1st lvl) Medium Humanoid. Speed 30' Climb 30' Str 18 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 15 Wis 14 Cha 10. Nat Armour +2 SQ Scent, Summon Familiar Feats, Gt Fortitude, Scribe Scroll Have you any PrC's you would have liked to try out? The Cohort's a good way to test them. I'd like to try out a Blaster Caster Warmage in Full Plate (Battle Caster feat), or a Sor/Warmage mix, using Draconic feats, burning spells to breath acid. Cheers Paul H
Lomiat 06-12-06, 10:31 PM	I am thinking of taking Leadership at level 12 with my druid. I am not worried about the -2 to my score from animal companion due to a great renown bonus I picked up. To use that bonus it has to be a non lawful cohort but that does not bother me. I am not sure what sort of cohort to take however. So far I am thinking of an archer occoult slayer or an arcane caster. Another option is a cleric or BDF as there seems to be a distinct lack of them around. Any suggestions? There are a number of concerns other than those already addressed: 1) Do you play mostly with a local playgroup with set members and PC roles? If so, you can use your cohort to pick up the most useful utility role. 2) Do you play mostly at cons and with local convention goers? If so, then you should consider what you see at tables in general, but more to the point, your cohort (already limited in levels, stats, and gold) ought to have a clearly defined role and be as good at it as possible (not trying to fulfill two roles in one build). 3) What support does your Druid typically desire? Do you find yourself wanting arcane buffs with Haste, etc.? Or Cleric healing? Or do you want that scout/archer to deal with things at a distance? Or the rogue to help keep you from stepping falsely? 4) The BDF is not usually a good role for the cohort. A frontline fighter wants as many HPs and GP worth of items as possible. Cohorts get screwed in both respects. 5) Remembering that the 22-point stat buy kind of stinks (unless you have a certed cohort), you should plan to avoid builds that require multiple good stats. 22 points won't even buy you four 14s. A 16 eats up nearly half a cohort's stats, so it's best not rely on save DCs from spells or to rely on your cohort to deal the party's damage. Thus, I'd recommend a support caster--either an arcane buffer or a divine buffer/healer. Improved Init is good for the arcane. Augment Healing for the divine. The nice thing about the cohort is that as a player, if you have a tendency to want your PC to make a splash and have an impact in combats, the cohort doesn't need to do anything but play the role as best as possible. It can be perfectly content to buff and heal.
Cynric 06-13-06, 12:30 AM	Generally there is no cleric at the tables I play at, whether at a games day or convention. This means my druid is also generally the saole healer which tends to really disrupt my plans. Having said that I have a cleric coming up as a secondary, hence my reluctance to have a cleric cohort. Arcane is generally light on the ground and my animal companion is normally the tank for the party (too many Monks and Bards around). Hence the wide range of options. I was thinking mainly of either a healing\turning cleric (incoporeals really annoy me) or an archer rather than arcane (way too little experience with them). Any more comments\suggestions? :P
PaulH 06-13-06, 08:57 AM	Hi Healing/Turning Cleric? Then Radiant Servant of Pelor seems best bet. If you want more healing than turning, then Healing & Sun Domains, for turning Glory & Sun. You don't lose spell progression, nor turning ability. You get to destroy undead more often. The Radiance ability doubles the radius of light spells, plus increases their effective level for dispelling & countering darkness spells. Eg. Blistering Radiance now has 100' radius spread, & counts as 6th lvl spell for countering/dispelling. Human Str 10 De 10 Co 12 In 10 Wi 14 Ch 14 Cleric of Pelor. Domains Healing & Sun (Get Glory at 11th lvl) 1) Clr. Extra Turning. Extra Turning (yep, twice because of Divine Metamagic) 2) Clr 3) Clr. Twin Spell 4) Clr +1 Wis 5) Clr 6) Clr. Divine Metamagic Twin Spell (costs 5 turn attempts to use) 7) Radiant Servant. Gain Marshall Wpn prof. Extra Greater Turning (3+cha/day), Radiance 8) Rad. Serv.+1 Wis, Empower Healing Domain spells, Divine Health 9) Rad. Serv. Aura of Warding. (+2 will saves 10') Sacred Healing (grants fast heal 3 to living creatures within 60' burst) 10) Rad Servant. You cast spells/turn undead as 10th lvl clr. Your Healing Domain spells are empowered You grant +2 will saves to allies (plus self) withinn 10' You can do Greater Turning 6/day You've can use all Martial Wpns. You're immune to all diseases, including magical. (Mummy rot, etc). You can 'burn' 5 turning attempts to cast spell twice, (normal cast time), in same area. (Blistering Radiance, 100' radius would be interesting. better still is Mass Cure Light Wnds, since you're effective 11th lvl [healing domain], plus it's empowered)! You can burn one turn attempt to give fast heal 3 within 60' for 3 rnds. You get Glory Domain next lvl Radiant Servant. (Or any other Pelor Domain). Cheers Paul H
zoinks69 06-13-06, 12:45 PM	The Radiant Servant idea is rather good. 2 suggestions/alternatives: 1. If you want to crack out the healing, take Augment Healing at level 9. +2 hp per level of Conjuration (Healing) spell (so +10 to Mass Cure Light -- I don't have my books handy, I believe it's 5th level and is still a spell to which Augment applies), which gets pretty ridiculous when you have Empower/Maximize/Empower & Maximize from Radiant Servant. 2. I'd take Quicken/DMM Quicken over Twin. I think Twin is rather limited in application (though I'll grant that 2 mass cures, toss in Augment, and it's an anti-fireball) -- the spells you can cast that can be applied double is a pretty short list. On the other hand, quicken ends up costing you 2 slots instead of one (one for each spell you cast), but you have the versatility to pop off 2 of any spell (so, for instance, a cure and a buff on top of it). Also, consider having the cohort spend money to boost turn level and/or checks so you can pick up Divine Spell Power at 12. Alternatively, have him save money and pick up Craft Wondrous and create a Strand of Prayer Beads.
Lord Yod 06-13-06, 04:52 PM	I second the DMM/Quicken combo, it's just too darned good to pass up. Easily avoid TPK's with quickened Righteous Might, Divine Power, etc etc etc. Combined with Divine Spell Power and the domain ability that bumps turning (Glory I think?) it can get out of hand real quick.
copper_wyrmling 06-13-06, 09:45 PM	A couple of points with the cleric idea: - Divine Metamagic (Twin) works better with the Radiant Servant's amped-up healing domain spells than Divine Metamagic (Quicken); DMM (Quicken) grants more flexibility. Both, however, burn turn attempts like crazy. A Cha-16 cleric with two Extra Turning feats has 14 turn attempts / day - in other words, two uses of DMM (Twin) or DMM (Quicken). Also, remember that you can only use turning once / round, so you can't use DMM and then turn undead, and you can't use DMM and DSP in the same round. - It's not a good idea for your cohort cleric to be quickening personal self-buffs (like Divine Power and Righteous Might) and wading into combat. They will generally be below APL and have crummy stats and equipment compared to a PC. Battle clerics have enough trouble with multiple attribute dependency in 28-point buy, 22-point buy makes it really hard. - Boosting turn level does nothing for Divine Spell Power, it's all in the turning checks. Also, note that Divine Spell Power + Holy Word can be a bad idea for a PC who always adventures with a druid (animal companions + summons tend to explode). - Cohorts can't take item creation feats, so no strands of prayer beads. Also, I know that the player in question has a secondary character built along pretty much exactly these lines, and that another player in the same area and same level range has a spellcasting cleric cohort. That said, my play experience is pretty much clerics + arcanes, so if the OP doesn't want an arcane caster, I'm not really qualified to offer advice on non-cleric options ;)
Cynric 06-14-06, 01:47 AM	Thanks Wyrmling. As you had guessed, I am looking at almost anything apart from the cleric option. Leaning towards archer build or maybe a gnomish sorcerer. Guess where I got that idea from?
copper_wyrmling 06-14-06, 05:22 AM	Here's one possible way to do a gnome sorcerer cohort: Gnome sorcerer 8 / fatespinner 2 Str 6 (0) Dex 8 (0) Con 16 (6) Wis 8 (0) Int 14 (6) Cha 16 (10) All stat-bumps to Charisma. Skills: Concentration and Spellcraft maxed, Knowledge (Arcana) 10, Profession (Gambler) 5, Bluff 5, six ranks spare to allocate as you see fit Spell selection: L1: Magic Missile, Feather Fall, Silent Image, Grease, Mage Armour (trade for something else if Greater Mage Armour is taken at L3) L2: Resist Energy, Web, Invisibility, Glitterdust (or False Life, See Invisibility) L3: Dispel Magic, Haste, Greater Mage Armour (or Servant Horde, Invisibility Sphere, Magic Circle vs Evil) L4: Dimension Door, Evard's Black Tentacles (or Solid Fog) L5: Mass Fly Feats: L1: Improved Initiative, PHB metamagic, or Spell Focus L3: (your choice) L6:Transdimensional Spell L9: Sculpt Spell Transdimensional Spell here is based on the OP saying that he deeply disliked incorporeal encounters. Would a transdimensional web / solid fog / evard's black tentacles have full effect on incorporeals? If so, this would be a good way to neutralise incorporeals. If not, Web should probably be ditched in favour of a different spell. The spell selection is based around making sure the party can get to the bad guys (or away from them, if that's what's needed), and then trying to ensure the bad guys can't hit back effectively (since we expect the party to be low on healing). Invisibility is basically there because it's a standard arcanist function, but it could be traded for False Life if Con 16 isn't enough for survivability (or replaced with Invisibility Sphere at L3). Wildshaped druids are often pretty good scouts / spies anyway. Resist Energy is long-lasting and low enough level that it can be cast as a standard precautionary spell, especially if extended. Glitterdust is great for revealing invisible creatures to the rest of the party: See Invisibility is also very nice, but probably less necessary if the druid leader has a crazily high Spot check or blindsense / blindsight. The L3 spells can be chosen to taste. Greater Mage Armour is in there because the OP said he often adventures with monks: giving a +6 armour bonus to the wildshaping druid, his animal companion, and two other PCs is probably well worth a spell known. Servant Horde can be very useful, but can suffer from some table variation and can be complicated to use to best effect. Magic Circle vs Evil would be to compensate for the absence of a cleric, but could get tricky with the druid's summons. The feats are pretty open. You could probably fit in another prestige class before fatespinner (divine oracle, wild mage, mage of the arcane order, etc) if you wanted to go that way and had access. I also have a gnome wizard / shadowcraft mage build with lots of earth / nature flavour and some healing ability which would fit well as a druid's cohort, but it's a bit more complicated for someone without a good knowledge of the sorc / wiz spell list (since you can basically cast any conjuration (creation), conjuration (summoning) or evocation spell spontaneously). Anyway, just some thoughts.
PaulH 06-14-06, 07:41 PM	Hi How could I ever forget the Augment Healing feat? :eek: That, with the twin spell, mass dure light wounds, etc is awesome. But you mentioned a gnome sorceror. Why? If you want a blaster caster, then fine, use a Warmage. Gnome is good, with its basic spells, size bonuses, etc. Been looking at a Gnome Bard/Warmage concept for a while now, Good for wands (Cure Light on Bard list), Even just the one lvl dip into Bard grants plenty of skill points, plus loads useful cantrips Warmages just don't get. Gnome - Pure Warmage: Str 8 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 14 Wis 8 Cha 16 Abilities: Edge. Cast Spells in Medium Armour, c/w Lt Shield. Advanced Learning 1st & 3rd lvl spells, Sudden Empower 1/day, Sudden Enlarge 1/day. (Next lvl gets another advanced learning learn any one sor.wiz evocation spell up to 5th lvl) Suggested Feats: 1) Combat Casting 3) Obtain familiar. (next lvl it gains SR) 6) Extra Edge. 9) Shielded Caster. (RoS)? No AoO when casting. Other Suggestions: Take Tenser's Floating Disk & Leomund's Tiny Hut as your first two Advanced Learnings. Tenser's Greater Floating Disk good at 11th. Get Mithril Full Plate if they have access/can afford it. Open combat with Sudden Empowered Mass Fireshield on party. (D6+24 damage to attackers)! ;) (Sudden doesn't increase time/lvl of spell, Mass Fireshield is 5th lvl spell for Warmages). Cheers Paul H
Cynric 06-14-06, 09:07 PM	Thanks for the help Wyrmling. I was looking at more orb spells, but basically battlefield control. You pretty much got the idea, although the nature\earth combo sound good. I will have to look at it closer.
copper_wyrmling 06-14-06, 09:55 PM	But you mentioned a gnome sorceror. Why? If you want a blaster caster, then fine, use a Warmage. Gnome is good, with its basic spells, size bonuses, etc. He mentioned he was short on arcane, and there are lots of basic arcane functions that warmages just don't get. I was trying to put together a warmage + Arcane Disciple build, to provide magical artillery and some utility / healing. Unfortunately, I just can't get the stats to work in a 22-pt buy, given that you want Dex for ray spells, Con 'cause you'll always be playing up, Wis for Arcane Disciple and Cha for spellcasting. Int and Str are nice (warmage edge and armour) but less crucial than the others. I guess if I was going in that direction I'd use a halfling or gnome warmage 10 with Str 6 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 14 Cha 14. Compensate for the low Cha by using mostly no-save spells or spells that have a powerful effect on a successful save. Pick an appropriate deity and take Arcane Disciple (Healing) and Arcane Disciple (Travel). Other feats could be Point Blank Shot + Precise Shot, Empower Spell, Sculpt Spell, etc. You'd just need to steer clear of anything that has a skill requirement, 'cause if you're maxing Concentration you won't be putting ranks in anything else. Been looking at a Gnome Bard/Warmage concept for a while now, Good for wands (Cure Light on Bard list), Even just the one lvl dip into Bard grants plenty of skill points, plus loads useful cantrips Warmages just don't get. Given that the PC will usually be below APL, I don't think losing another caster level is a good idea. Gnome - Pure Warmage: Str 8 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 14 Wis 8 Cha 16 These abilities are a 26-pt buy - too high for a cohort. Open combat with Sudden Empowered Mass Fireshield on party. (D6+24 damage to attackers)! ;) (Sudden doesn't increase time/lvl of spell, Mass Fireshield is 5th lvl spell for Warmages). It would be nice, but Mass Fireshield is Limited :weep: Cynric, the reason that I left out the Orb spells was that the build I posted just doesn't have room for a decent Dex. If you really want to use them, you could swap Dex and Int, but that means you can't qualify for Fatespinner. Being able to give a party member a reroll seems more important to me than being able to use the orbs effectively, since the cohort will always be travelling with a druid / beastmaster and his animal companion - the cohort's approach to high-SR monsters would be to buff the party and use SR:no battlefield control. Blast of Flame is a L4 SR:no spell and would work reasonably well with Sculpt Spell, if you really wanted direct damage. The wizard / shadowcraft mage build I was thinking of goes something like: Gnome wizard (illusionist) 7 / shadowcraft mage 3 Opposed schools: Evocation, something else (Enchantment probably) Str 6 (0) Dex 8 (0) Con 16 (6) Int 16 (10) Wis 14 (6) Cha 8 (0) All stat-bumps to Int. Feats: L1: Spell Focus (Illusion) L3: Earth Sense L5: Heighten Spell L6: Earth Spell L9: Arcane Disciple (Healing) / Magic of the Land The trick of the build is to use Earth Spell in conjunction with heightened Silent Images and the Shadowcraft Mage's Shadow Figments ability. The Arcane Disciple feat synergises with the high Wisdom required for Earth Sense.
Maesto 06-14-06, 10:42 PM	Just a note for the twin spell build above; I think twin spell has a prereq of any other metamagic feat, which really hurts for a cleric. Divine metamagic needs three feats alone (extra turning, meta, divine meta); to require a fourth just to qualify really eats into the few feats that clerics get.
copper_wyrmling 06-15-06, 12:11 AM	Just a note for the twin spell build above; I think twin spell has a prereq of any other metamagic feat, which really hurts for a cleric. Divine metamagic needs three feats alone (extra turning, meta, divine meta); to require a fourth just to qualify really eats into the few feats that clerics get. Good point - and if you're using the big Divine Metamagics with a cohort's gold restrictions (i.e. big stat-boosters are hard to get), you probably want more than one Extra Turning feat. Also, my Arcane Disciple warmage build doesn't really work: you have to sacrifice Concentration to meet the skill requirements for Arcane Disciple, and probably take the Well Read feat as well :(
PaulH 06-15-06, 07:20 PM	Hi The idea of a gnome blaster was to be just a blaster. With the 22 point build I gave (increased cha from 14-16 at 4th & 8th lvl), you can't take Arcane Disciple. What's the point? The Healer's already been turned down. As to Limited spells, aren't all the spells on the Warmage list open to all warmages? Orb spells are. So, too, (I think) are the 'Sudden' feats. To take spells away from an already limited list is unacceptable. Of course, we now take the Spell Compendium version. Problem with the spellcaster you've quoted is the attacks of opportunity. My build doesn't have them for casting spells. Just needs to be using that light shield. The Gnome race grants a few nice abilities to 'boost' a warmage. Of course, all he/she does is blast away, carry heavy loads (Tensers Disk), provide good shelter, (Leomunds Hut). Can't do everything. Leomund's Tiny Hut is good in combat, too, since it grants total concealment from outside, whilst those inside can see out perfectly. (Temperature is moderated, too). Good for protection from missiles, charges, etc, but does leave target for area effect spells. As you point out, only 22 point buy doesn't leave lot room to maneouvre. Cheers Paul H Edit: I've asked for clarification re Mass Fireshield on another thread. Possible Powers that Be just missed it. (All others included).
Cynric 06-15-06, 07:44 PM	I just thought of something. Do permanent magic Items, like a cloak of charisma affect your leadership score? this may make a difference when it comes to what level and subsequently what cohort I would be taking.
PaulH 06-15-06, 08:04 PM	Hi Believe only permanent abilities affect such changes. You could sell/lose the item, would you then lose your cohort? You don't get extra skill points for having Headband of Intellect, for instance. Anyway, since your cohort should be 2 levels behind you, you need to confess something? Or why should another warrior not wish to come & join you? ;) Cheers Paul H
copper_wyrmling 06-15-06, 10:27 PM	The idea of a gnome blaster was to be just a blaster. With the 22 point build I gave (increased cha from 14-16 at 4th & 8th lvl), you can't take Arcane Disciple. What's the point? The Healer's already been turned down. I just don't think a pure blaster is the best choice for a caster who'll always be below APL. It's true, if what the OP wants is magical artillery, warmage is best. His play group is short on arcane, so I was looking to fill some of the other classical arcane roles. The reason the cleric build was turned down was that the OP has a secondary character with a near-identical build and doesn't want to play the same character twice. Arcane Disciple is a way to play a very different build that still contributes some much-needed healing. As to Limited spells, aren't all the spells on the Warmage list open to all warmages? Orb spells are. So, too, (I think) are the 'Sudden' feats. To take spells away from an already limited list is unacceptable. Of course, we now take the Spell Compendium version. Warmages don't get to override the usual Core / Limited / Restricted classifications. The Orb spells are Core, so they're okay. Mass Fire Shield is one of the very few spells that was Limited in its original Complete Arcane version (if I remember correctly, the only other Limited CA spells were Illusory Pit and Assay Spell Resistance) - none of those spells were changed from Limited to Core with the Spell Compendium revision. The warmage gains their free Sudden feats normally - see LGCS p.30, "The warmage's bonus feats are considered core for this class only, at the appropriate levels". Warmages do not, however, get general Core access to all Sudden feats at all levels. Problem with the spellcaster you've quoted is the attacks of opportunity. My build doesn't have them for casting spells. Just needs to be using that light shield. As someone who's played a divine caster from L1 to L13 in LG, and an arcane caster from L1 to L10: by L10, attacks of opportunity aren't much of a problem any more, because you have enough Concentration to pass almost any "Cast Defensively" check even if you roll a 1. My L13 cleric has +24 Concentration and it's not even maxed out (one rank short), my L10 sorcerer has +17 without using any feats or items to boost it. Attacks of opportunity are mostly a problem at low levels, or if the Mage Slayer feat is common, and (fortunately for casters) Mage Slayer is restricted in LG. Of course, all he/she does is blast away, carry heavy loads (Tensers Disk), provide good shelter, (Leomunds Hut). Can't do everything. Leomund's Tiny Hut is good in combat, too, since it grants total concealment from outside, whilst those inside can see out perfectly. (Temperature is moderated, too). Good for protection from missiles, charges, etc, but does leave target for area effect spells. This is true, of course. There are definitely advantages to a warmage - it just seems that in a group that's short on conventional arcane and healing magic, a warmage may not be the best choice.
jmweber9 06-15-06, 10:44 PM	There are a couple of other options open to you that can help overcome some of the limitations or preparations you've mentioned. What I mean is, if you want to avoid the whole 2 turning/ healing clerics you can opt to take on another druid as your cohort and hook him up with Augment Healing, Spontaneous Healer and Mobile Spellcaster (with Skill Focus: Concentration to help this out). He can heal like a cleric when needed (although not quite as well), can spontaneoously "lose" a few spells each day to heal in dire emergencies and can even cast while he moves to make him a true combat medic (even better when in wild shape with better maneuverability and speed). However, he still maintains the versatility of the druid spell list, can wild shape for additional melee support and will have his own animal companion to act as a scout/ combatant, etc. You get the benefits of an additional healer/ buffer without duplicating your secondary character. As far as the option for an arcane spellcaster, consider a dragon disciple. The stat bumps alone help to overcome the 22 point stat buy issue and give you some nice firepower (though at the expense of spell progression) with a good BAB progression and great hp (d12). Why not a barbarian 2/ sorcerer 4/ dragon disciple 4 (in that order so you max out your hit points first and get the +1 BAB at 1st level and get access to Spell Compendium spells at your 1st sorcerer level)? The 4 levels of DD get you a +4 Strength bonus, Fist of Stone (Spell Compendium) gives you a +6 enhancement bonus to Str and then rage gives you an additional unnamed +4 bonus to Str. That's a 14 point increase to strength when you need him for melee instead of as a blaster. In addition, you get a +2 natural armor increase, claws and a bite (can use one as a secondary attack at -5 penalty), and a breath weapon that deals 2d8 damage with a save DC = 14+ your new Con modifier. If, on the other hand, you need a blaster, you've got your spells to fall back on (like 2 Scorching Rays at 4d6 each or Lesser Acid Orbs that you can cast at least 3 or 4 times a day with Prac Spellcaster feat) or fill your spells known with some utility spells that the party really needs. Stocking up on scrolls of the Useful-In-Certain-Situation spells can really make him a star performer when the need arises. Fill the void of tank and limited arcane at the same time. Just a couple of suggestions. Feel free to play around with them. Just try to keep in mind that 1) the cohort should fit the PC, 2) it should fill a role in your party makeup and 3) it should be fun to play. Hope it works out for you. Have fun! John
copper_wyrmling 06-15-06, 11:14 PM	What I mean is, if you want to avoid the whole 2 turning/ healing clerics you can opt to take on another druid as your cohort and hook him up with Augment Healing, Spontaneous Healer and Mobile Spellcaster (with Skill Focus: Concentration to help this out). He can heal like a cleric when needed (although not quite as well), can spontaneoously "lose" a few spells each day to heal in dire emergencies and can even cast while he moves to make him a true combat medic (even better when in wild shape with better maneuverability and speed). However, he still maintains the versatility of the druid spell list, can wild shape for additional melee support and will have his own animal companion to act as a scout/ combatant, etc. You get the benefits of an additional healer/ buffer without duplicating your secondary character. Also, a druid could take Magic of the Land and make it work - combined with Augment Healing, you'd be looking at +4 healing / spell level if I remember the feat correctly. Cure Critical Wounds for 4d8+30 at L10... Mass Cure Light Wounds for 1d8+35 at L11... Whoa, that's actually kind of scary. Also, Magic of the Land can apply to any spell you cast, not just cures (although it only works in natural settings) - Animal Growth and heal all the targets 10 HP at the same time ;) Healing Lorecall got its duration increased in the Spell Compendium: a druid with max ranks in Heal can get +3 effective caster level when using healing spells. Also, healing magic is one of the better methods for dealing with incorporeal undead. Maybe something like: Human druid 10 L1: Spell Focus (Conjuration), Augment Summoning L3: Augment Healing L6: Natural Spell L9: Magic of the Land / Spontaneous Healer Also, if the druid spends most of their time in wildshape, 22pt buy isn't as bad as it is for other classes.
PaulH 06-16-06, 06:54 PM	Hi I like the idea of another Druid. I like it very much, especially, as someone's said - wildshaping takes the sting out of the 22 pt buy. What's the poster's favourite 'shape'? Plus what's their Animal Companion? I'm asking because of the Beast Master PrC. Druid 6/Beast4 grants 2 animal companions, 1 as lvl 13 Druid, the other as lvl 7 Druid. If PC likes bears, then Beastmaster shifts into Large Brown Bear, his 1st companion can be Dire Bear, the 2nd another Brown Bear. Same with lions/tigers. (And Bears, Oh my)! Just add Animal Growth & you make a mockery of "yeah, you & whose army..."? (Obviously, only the companions plus other animals in party are enlarged). Just one question, when you shift, do you lose any racial feats/bonuses, since you're in a new form? Cheers Paul H Edit: That should read Black Bear for your cohort, since he's 6th lvl Druid
Iswald 06-17-06, 12:26 AM	Druid 6/Beast4 grants 2 animal companions, 1 as lvl 13 Druid, the other as lvl 7 Druid. If PC likes bears, then Beastmaster shifts into Large Brown Bear, his 1st companion can be Dire Bear, the 2nd another Brown Bear. Same with lions/tigers. (And Bears, Oh my)! The beastmasters second and later companions are significantly weaker than the first. The second companion is treated as a druid companion of beastmaster level - 3. Beastmaster levels don't stack with levels in other classes for the additional companions. It's not until level 6 that the beastmaster could have a second companion as a bear. With the above classes, they'd have the companions of a 13th and 1st level druid.
jmweber9 06-17-06, 12:58 AM	[QUOTE=PaulH] What's the poster's favourite 'shape'? Plus what's their Animal Companion? I'm asking because of the Beast Master PrC. Druid 6/Beast4 grants 2 animal companions, 1 as lvl 13 Druid, the other as lvl 7 Druid. If PC likes bears, then Beastmaster shifts into Large Brown Bear, his 1st companion can be Dire Bear, the 2nd another Brown Bear. Same with lions/tigers. (And Bears, Oh my)! Just add Animal Growth & you make a mockery of "yeah, you & whose army..."? (Obviously, only the companions plus other animals in party are enlarged). Just one question, when you shift, do you lose any racial feats/bonuses, since you're in a new form? [QUOTE] Paul, My cohort actually prefers an eagle as his wild shape as it gives him great maneuverability (no need to move through an enemy-occupied square when you can fly over it) and speed. He often serves as a scout who can control the battlefield / rain fire (or lightning) from above/ summon nasties all while out of reach (with Natural Spell of course). This also comes in handy when it is time to heal a PC. As far as his companion goes, on his last AR he received a special certed warhorse that is statted out through the roof and so won't be using any others while he's still alive. Since that won't help you with your question, though, let me say that in the past it really depended on the party makeup at the time. If we had some weaker characters playing up in APL, he'd bring along a dire wolf or tiger to help protect them. If we had a ton of beef up front he'd bring in a dire bat (for riding and blindsense) or a bird (hawk, eagle or owl) for scouting / night watch. Beastmaster is nice, but at higher APLs (10 or 12 and up) your secondary companion can only be chosen from the druid 1st level list (with no advancement) and will get eaten up pretty quickly so it's not really worth the trade off of spell progression. I say this because beastmaster class levels do not stack with druid levels for the second companion (see pg 27 last paragraph under Extra Animal Companion). The exception to this is that 1 level gives your current companion additional benefits as if it were the next tier up in advancement terms. That, in my opinion, is worth the trade off. To answer your last question, you retain any level-progression-based feats (ie those gained at 1st, 3rd, 6th, etc) but lose any racial feats or skills bonuses from your old form. You do, however, gain any racial feats or skill bonuses of the new form as they are considered extraordinary abilities. Hope this helps. John
PaulH 06-17-06, 07:30 PM	Hi Missed the bit about the extra companions. :eek: Just the one level dip for a companion, then. Would you take 2 levels of Warshaper for the extra Str & Con, plus immunities to stun, crits & sneak? Nice one about the warhorse - I've got a Dakon cohort, (not that I've been able to play him). He's statted up as well, except in Cha. Cheers Paul H
jmweber9 06-20-06, 02:41 AM	If we're talking about building a support character, one that specializes in healing, what's the point in diluting 2 more levels of spellcasting abilities (and missing out on one spell level) with warshaper levels? More than just that, you lose out on (1) 2nd, (1) 3rd, (2) 4th and (2) 5th level spells per day. I would honestly stay away from any blending- even the beastmaster level. Every level you take in a non-druid class (even though it may have some nice benefits) costs you spellcasting levels + spell slots and probably wild shaping levels as well. If you just want to build a mutt tank, that's one thing. But if you want a healing, wild-shaping, spellcasting druid you gotta limit or completely omit your multiclassing. Remember that the original poster said his party needs a healer, though he doesn't want to duplicate his secondary character (the Radiant Servant). Combat bonuses are of secondary importance. With one level of beastmaster and two levels of warshaper he's now down to only 7 druid levels and access to only 4th level spells instead of 5th (Cure Crit Wounds, Wall of Thorns, Death Ward, Stoneskin, Animal Growth, Quill Blast, Rejuv. Cocoon, etc.). These are all spells that can make or break a combat- especially at APLs 12+. Instead of being just 2 levels behind the curve he'd be 5 casting levels behind. And a DC 17 Flame Strike and a couple of Cure Serious Wounds just won't get it done. Not to mention that his wild shapes will not be very effective either- with only small and medium sized creatures of 7 hit dice or less 3 times / day instead of small to large creatures of 10 hd 4 / day. No, in his situation it's probably best to stick to straight druid levels (if he even wants to go this route, that is). He has more spellcasting power 1 level and 6 additional slots), more skill points, better/ more choices for wild shapes, and a decent animal companion. Just my opinion, of course. John
Cynric 06-20-06, 07:40 AM	Thanks for all the help. While I still have not decided betweeen a Blasting sorceress or a pure druid you have all given me some more ideas. One small question though. I have been told that aPC cannot ride another PC's animal companion, is this true because I cannot seem to find it in the PHB or LGCS.
jmweber9 06-20-06, 10:15 PM	There's a rule that you cannot ride another PC (especially for centaur characters from the Bright Sands) but I've never heard a rule about riding someone's animal comanion. Most judges won't give you a hard time about it, though. My advice: just ask him/ her ahead of time to see how he'd rule on it and go from there. John
paigeoliver 06-21-06, 01:27 AM	I wouldn't even ASK that. There are no rules about it. When asking things like that you are approaching from the wrong angle. You shouldn't have to ask permission for things that are allowed under the rules. To do so gives the judge the idea that you are trying to get away with something. Also, I thought the exact rule was that you couldn't ride centaurs, not that you couldn't ride other characters. I have heard about all sorts of riding action involving wildshaped druids. There's a rule that you cannot ride another PC (especially for centaur characters from the Bright Sands) but I've never heard a rule about riding someone's animal comanion. Most judges won't give you a hard time about it, though. My advice: just ask him/ her ahead of time to see how he'd rule on it and go from there. John
Cynric 06-21-06, 02:13 AM	ok, just so we all know why I asked that question. My tiger generally is the frontliner and does ok with me buffing healing etc. It normally takes things out reasonably quickly. The problem comes when thing go on and on. I was thinking of getting a fighter\occoult slayer(provided the weapon focus stackes with spirited charge) built for mounted combat (spirited charge and the like) as the cohort to make sure things fall down when they are charged.
paigeoliver 06-21-06, 07:00 AM	Oh, don't waste your tiger as a mount for a lance charger. The tiger is never going to see any attacks then and just becomes a glorified horse. If you want a lance charger you should be looking at a halfling on riding dog or human female on dire bat (beastmaster class), as those seem to be the most effective lance charge builds. Also, its tough to build an effective spirited charge cohort because of ability score points. I play a spirited charge character. They do tons of damage but do not play "up" so well. And your cohort will be playing up constantly. My 4th level charger is up to 3d8+39 damage with no buffs and without weapon specialization. 1d8+(22 str raged 2 handed +9, magic lance +1, charging marshall aura +3)x3 = 3d8+39. Eventually around level 10 it should be at 3d8+57 (24 STR raged 2 handed +10, magic lance +3, charging marshall aura +4, weapon spec +2)x3 Right now at one module away from 5th level only a few things have survived the charge. Early on I was often stuck indoors, but then I got the tunnel riding feat so I could take horses inside with me. Now, the damage is NOT scaling up as much as the bad guy hit points. But I'll be flying at 6th level, so that will make up for not one-hitting everything anymore. Details needed to roll your own. Human female (light weight). 18 STR, 16 CHA, "Over the top" marshall aura, spirited charge, tunnel riding, and beastmaster prestige class. ok, just so we all know why I asked that question. My tiger generally is the frontliner and does ok with me buffing healing etc. It normally takes things out reasonably quickly. The problem comes when thing go on and on. I was thinking of getting a fighter\occoult slayer(provided the weapon focus stackes with spirited charge) built for mounted combat (spirited charge and the like) as the cohort to make sure things fall down when they are charged.
Maesto 06-21-06, 09:30 AM	You're not powerattacking? You get 6 points of damage for each point of power attack. I think the idea behind the charger was to make the ride check to have the tiger make it's full attack using pounce as well as the charge from the rider. Just a note that the tiger will only have 5 foot reach, whilst a lance has 10 foot of reach, so the tiger won't get to make any attacks due to the charge requirements.
paigeoliver 06-21-06, 05:31 PM	I don't have power attack yet, I put that further on into my builds than a lot of people. Every feat from level 1-6 with this character is wrapped up in having a Dire bat and being able to use it EVERYWHERE. So I have Tunnel Fighting and Tunnel Riding instead of Weapon Focus and Power attack. Plus, I still miss too often to be power attacking. Most stuff doesn't have the HP to survive the charge at this point anyway. You're not powerattacking? You get 6 points of damage for each point of power attack. I think the idea behind the charger was to make the ride check to have the tiger make it's full attack using pounce as well as the charge from the rider. Just a note that the tiger will only have 5 foot reach, whilst a lance has 10 foot of reach, so the tiger won't get to make any attacks due to the charge requirements.
Cynric 06-21-06, 07:00 PM	I beleive with mounted combat you can choose which square the rider attacks from. If that is true, I could have him on the back square and still attack. Animal growth just means he moves to the front.
solbergb 06-22-06, 08:36 PM	I don't like blaster cohorts - they are just too low caster level and low save DC (or attack roll for the orbs) to do well in that role. There is an alternative for healing and offense "supercharging" that has been ignored. Consider a bard cohort with insignia of healing, augment healing and maybe a lesser rod of empower. Something like this for a level 9 bard: L1 <whatever you want - improved init is usually popular> L3 extra bardsong L6 lyric spell L9 augment healing key spells are inspirational boost and maybe swift invis at level 1, harmonize at level 2 (and silence/glitterdust perhaps), haste and insignia of healing at level 3, dim door at level 4 This guy can crank everybody up - your animals, stuff you summon, your fellow party members, you in wildshape form....and then he can heal all the bad stuff that happens to you. It's not like having a dedicated healer at the table, but 1d8+16 every round healed can help, with temp hitpoints tossed on via harmonize+inspire greatness with the move action. He'll burn through his songs and spells pretty fast, but who cares, he's just a cohort. Will likely provide a fair number of skills too. My sorceress has a bard cohort along these lines, except less good at healing and better at raising caster levels and making the party sneaky. I'm quite satisfied with my choice. As a druid in a healing-light area you'll need a different build...but this approach will heal at least as well as your druid can, and make your tiger and your melee buddies and you in wildshape form all hasted and inspired. Bards also make good cohorts because you can get a lot out of them with the same boring actions every combat (duh....I haste everyone. Then I harmonize+inspire courage. Then I heal/inspire greatness. Lather rinse repeat)...they'll be useful but not hog the spotlight.
paigeoliver 06-23-06, 12:55 AM	Marshalls make excellent cohorts for certain character types. Rogues. Trip/disarm specialists Chargers. For rogues you make a Marshall with dexterity and Intelligence auras and get yourself a nice +4 to +6 on pretty much all your rogue skills, and initiative. For trip/disarm specialists you get an "art of war" Marshall and get yourself a nice +4 to +6 on trips and disarms. For chargers there is a charging aura that is going to add 12 to 18 damage to those lance charges.
Lomiat 06-23-06, 01:04 AM	And then there's the Marshall1/BardX which is pretty ridiculous for making everyone better. 1) Everyone gets my one attribute (CHA + bump + stat items) as a bonus to your Initiative. 2) Except I still go first because I lied and have almost a second attribute in DEX and Improved Init, so everyone gets +3 to Hit and Damage (Inspirational Boost and 8th level Bard song) 3) Then everyone's Hasted 4) Or reverse 2 and 3 The only thing is that your primary's going to have to take a back-seat to the cohort in Face mods.
waynec 06-23-06, 11:59 AM	Hey Cynric, If you are going for an arcane caster build. You could throw in levels of Fate spinner to improve the combat/saftey of your Tiger so he can make those crucial rolls. You could give him one level of Minbender so that he could telepathically communicate with every party member or give him improved familiar (Pseudo Dragon) for similar reasons. Neither of those abilities You could also give him a couple of Arcane discipile feats to make him more versatile eg: Healing- to take the pressure of Cynric, Whatever Domain that gives Delay Death (Not sure), Any Domain that gives Heroes Feast etc, etc.. get the picture. I thinks it's better to take a Sorcerer (although that may mean you'll struggle with skill points to get to certain PrC's ) and cherry pick the spells that you find you want him to cast. Also one of the painful things about being a wizard is spell sellection at the start (You don't want to have to do that for a Cohort). Because you will lack attribute points then steer clear of any spell that has a DC save or die. Although you might want to take some area spells like fireball. I think the idea of Transdimensional spell for a cohort Socerer that you want to take out incorporeals. One of the big advantages of this is athat you could cast it on top of the party and not affect them while getting rid of the Ghosties. I have lots more thoughts. Run your build by me if you decide to go that way.. Wayne C. btw. I've read about 50 comics in the last week.... Catcha later
Paul H 06-25-06, 01:17 PM	Hi Bards definitely make the best buffers, and the listed builds look tempting, especially Bard 10/Sublime Chord..... ;) However, I wouldn't dismiss Warmages completely. My Mark of Heroes character is a 7th lvl Warmage. Faced with a unknown enemy, or a large bunch of Half-Orc Beserkers, I wouldn't open up with a Sudden Enlarged Fireball, even with Edge/Extra Edge bonuses. Leomunds Tiny Hut is far better (Advanced Learning extra spell choice). You've now got total concealment from them, whilst they're still visible to you. It's a Force effect, not an illusion, so no save. All their targeting/charge solutions just went out the window. No sneak attacks from invisible 9th lvl rogues, gaze attacks, etc. I know it's also on the Bard list, but the Bard only knows 2 3rd lvl spells at 10th, so hard decisions to be made. A Warmage, however has 6 x 3rd lvl spells (base) at 10th. Also has Medium Armour & Lt Shields, 2 x 'Sudden' feats, even Mass Fireshield spell if you can get access! At 11th lvl he learns another Evocation spell of 5th lvl or lower from the Sorceror/Wizard lists. Still would go pure Bard, though. Sublime Chord too good to miss. 4th & 5th lvl spells as 11th lvl Cohort. (Mass Enlarge Person, Polymorph, Wall of Force is a nice start)! :D Cheers Paul H