Post/Author/DateTime	Post
haferka 05-16-07, 09:04 PM	I wanted to post my thoughts on the book.. and see what others thought.. Chapter 1: Churches... - Loved the Affiliations.. and I would love to see this system REPLACE the existing metaorg system ... I especially liked the Benifit Sections.. and thing this would work very well for LG.. Chapter 2: Divine options... - Alternative class abilties.. I glanced over this.. nothing jumped out as broken.. but some cool interesting stuff. - Domain Feats - Broken for LG... ZERO requirements, swift 1/day, 1 minute duration abilities... and you can trade Turn/Rebuke attempts for addition uses per day... Every Feat is broken (Example: Death = weapon deals neg levels, Destruction = lowers target AC with every hit, Fire = adds fire damage to every hit and ignites anyone you strikes for additional fire damage, many of them grant sacred/profane bonuses to AC/Attacks... up to +10 for Chaos Devotion...) The book does suggest adding aditional requirements to Domain feats.. which I would highly suggest... -- Devotion to a LG diety that grants the coresponding Domain -- Keeping the feats: Limited Access -- Limiting PCs to 1 Domain Feat (EVERY) TONS of really cool feats... most of which should probably be limited...(at the very least) Touch of Healing.. Heal by touch 3pts/spell level up to 50% max hp(Reserve Feat) Bestial Charge (tactical).. req wildshape.. = 5' charge, wildshape during a charge, charge around corners, pounce on charge - PC organizations: Again.. more good examples of that could easily replace metaorgs... - Prestige clases: I did not notice anything broken.. but some very cool stuff. Like.. a Druid/Mnk that gets a something similar to rage..., a ranger that gets druid like abilities, a caster with plant abilities, lots of divine oriented classes.. of course... -Spells: glanced over it.. didnt see anything broken.. but cool stuff.. like summoning holy symbols (could be handy in the BK). more mount oriented spells for paladins... etc... Chapter 3: Items... -power components.. I would love to see access to these things in LG.. another expendable is never a bad idea... -special holy symbols.. kinda like masterwork instruments for bards.. a cool idea... -magic items.. loved the faith oriented items.. and the item sets... Chapter 5: quests... (I skiped this.. I dont write mods.. I play them...)
kenobi65 05-16-07, 09:16 PM	- Loved the Affiliations.. and I would love to see this system REPLACE the existing metaorg system ... Verbobonc's already using Affiliation for many of its metaorgs.
JamesMaissen 05-16-07, 11:05 PM	I wanted to post my thoughts on the book.. and see what others thought.. Chapter 2: Divine options... - Domain Feats - Broken for LG... The book does suggest adding aditional requirements to Domain feats.. which I would highly suggest... -- Devotion to a LG diety that grants the coresponding Domain -- Keeping the feats: Limited Access -- Limiting PCs to 1 Domain Feat (EVERY) TONS of really cool feats... most of which should probably be limited...(at the very least) I'd just like to comment that if something is broken it should definitely NOT be 'limited' (or NONC if you prefer) but rather it should be 'closed'. Making something 'limited' *HIDES* what damage it does and delays people from realizing how overpowered or ridiculous it really is. If something is too powerful to be made 'open' then it really should be 'closed'. Atleast when something broken is made open it gets realized (ie wraithstrike) while if it's limited it lingers until it does enough harm in enough places to merit sufficient notice. I really hope that 'limited' is not used as a 'maybe it should be closed' category. It would be better to see such dubious things 'closed' at first and then after consideration be removed from that list. It'd even be better for broken things to be 'open' and then need to be put down to 'closed'. -James
Sieylianna 05-17-07, 08:05 AM	Chapter 2: Divine options... - Alternative class abilties.. I glanced over this.. nothing jumped out as broken.. but some cool interesting stuff. You didn't look closely enough. Barbarians can give up fast movement at first level and gain pounce. That is huge (and horribly broken). Ed
haferka 05-17-07, 08:22 AM	I'd just like to comment that if something is broken it should definitely NOT be 'limited' (or NONC if you prefer) but rather it should be 'closed'. I agree. You didn't look closely enough. Barbarians can give up fast movement at first level and gain pounce. That is huge (and horribly broken). Ed Thanks, thats the kind of stuff I wanted to know.
haferka 05-17-07, 08:23 AM	Verbobonc's already using Affiliation for many of its metaorgs. cool, I know the "Drinkers" IUZ border states metaorg uses them...
_metz_ 05-17-07, 10:15 AM	I am writing up a meta org right now that uses them :) They are going to be standard in Ratik.
Mommy was an Orc 05-17-07, 10:22 AM	You didn't look closely enough. Barbarians can give up fast movement at first level and gain pounce. That is huge (and horribly broken). Ed Wow... Guess we've got another Complete Mage on our hands. Combine Barbarian with a level of Cleric for the Travel Domain ability, a reach weapon, Shock Trooper, and the Travel Domain feat. Charge in with a pounce, then swift action move away after the charge. Who on Oerth thinks of Pounce being the equivalent of an extra 10' of movement???
_metz_ 05-17-07, 11:57 AM	Well lets just tick "closed" on that one. Pounce is always going to be broken lol, but exchanging ten foot extra movement for it? LOL hahahaha
vvincent 05-17-07, 12:49 PM	I wanted to post my thoughts on the book.. and see what others thought.. <SNIP> - Loved the Affiliations.. and I would love to see this system REPLACE the existing metaorg system ... I especially liked the Benifit Sections.. and thing this would work very well for LG.. <SNIP> While I doubt you'll see a wholesale adoption of the Affiliation system, the system does have a lot of things that I happen to like - and it can be fairly easily adapted for LG with some common sense. As mentioned by Kenobi, Verbobonc has been using Affiliations since last June, and has been steadily moving the majority of our metaorgs to that format. Since we've been using it for a while now - we've been able to identify those things we really like about it as well as those things that cause players some concern. Pros: Affiliations reward choice - not mechanics: By rewarding actions and choices taken by PCs, Affiliations reinforce the concept of role-playing, and backup that roleplaying with advancement in an org. Players have more control: Because advancement in Affiliations is determined by actions and choices, it puts advancement in the player's control - and is less impacted by things like character death. While it is possible to earn advancement simply by gaining levels, you can advance more rapidly by doing things that are in keeping with a metaorg's goals. Ease of Maintenance/Cert Consolidation: We recently redesigned our Saint Cuthbert metaorg. Previously, this org was composed of 6 certs: 3 tiers (Initiate, Priest, and Canon) and the 3 Cuthbertine Orders (Billets, Chapeauxs, and Stars). The Affiliation system allowed us to consolidate 6 certs into 2 pages while also letting us provide more detail and options than before. As a side effect, because we had fewer separate certs, the editing was tighter and cut-n-paste errors were all but eliminated. As a side benefit, because there is less paper - it's easier for convention coordinators to have these certs on hand for players. It's cheaper to print out a 2 page cert that has everything, than it is to print out 6 separate certs, and risk not having enough of a cert on top of having too much of another and wasting paper. Cons Tracking and accounting: For the Affiliation system to work, the player needs to keep track of the points earned or lost. If a character is a member of several metaorgs then this can get quite cumbersome as you are looking over several logs and trying to update them. In this situation, you could actually end up with more paperwork you had before. Furthermore, auditing these logs is similar to auditing ARs - so, like ARs, it could make it harder to find fraud or cheating if a player simply doesn't record a penalty. Greater Complexity: Because it allow for greater flexibility, the Affiliation system is, of necessity, more complex and less straightforward than older metaorgs. It can sometimes be daunting to keep up with what actions result in Affilion point gains or losses. Slower Advancement for Those with Many Characters: Because Affiliations reward actions taken during an adventure (in this case, Verbobonc adventures) - the more you play with a character, the more opportunities to earn Affiliation Points you have (and, more opportunities for advancement). Conversely, if you have several characters in one region - it can take longer for all of them to advance because your opportunities to earn Affiliation points are spread out across many characters rather than one or two characters. Finally - one challenge we encounterd (and I think we successfully overcame) was grandfathering (or incorporating) characters from previous non-Affiliation orgs into the new Affiliation system. Rather than force characters to start over - we allowed them to "grandfather in" at the tier closest to their old tier. They were considered to have the minimum number of Affiliation points required for the new tier. Alternatively, we also allowed players to 're-calculate' their Affiliation score using the Criteria table for the new org. This allowed them to find the most advantageous option for them. There are good arguments for both styles of metaorgs (the current approach vs. the Affiliation system) - and some orgs may fit better in one style than the other. I personally like the Affiliation system, but others may have differing opinions that are equally valid. My advice to anyone converting to Affiliations is to not go overboard on options to earn points. The cert should cover the most common ways to advance. Leave region-specific or story-specific points to individual adventures and AR rewards. Just my thoughts and opinions. Vernon L. Vincent Verbobonc Triad
solbergb 05-17-07, 12:51 PM	I wanted to post my thoughts on the book.. and see what others thought.. Bestial Charge (tactical).. req wildshape.. = 5' charge, wildshape during a charge, charge around corners, pounce on charge Holy....ok, I know my pouncekitty's level 12 feat now. Maybe even earlier if I decide I can live without natural spell or extra rage...
solbergb 05-17-07, 12:53 PM	You didn't look closely enough. Barbarians can give up fast movement at first level and gain pounce. That is huge (and horribly broken). Ed And yeah, my pouncekitty would retrain that in an second too, for use with weapons. As would my wife's shock trooper barbarian...and any other barbarian with BAB 6+
Britt 05-17-07, 12:55 PM	Why are you assuming we would be stupid enough to give people the ability to pounce?
Sieylianna 05-17-07, 12:56 PM	And yeah, my pouncekitty would retrain that in an second too, for use with weapons. As would my wife's shock trooper barbarian...and any other barbarian with BAB 6+ I have a TWF rogue and a TWF swashbuckler/rogue who would pick up a level of barbarian for that. Ed
bitznarf 05-17-07, 01:00 PM	..
Japangirl 05-17-07, 01:07 PM	Why are you assuming we would be stupid enough to give people the ability to pounce? People appear to be pointing out that some of Complete Champion is in fact broken and shouldn't be allowed, contrary to Haferka's original scan of the document that suggested nothing broken. No one expects the Circle to allow that nonsense in.
solbergb 05-17-07, 08:13 PM	Why are you assuming we would be stupid enough to give people the ability to pounce? I'm not. I'm just stating the instant and absolute consequence of such an action. Barbarians would cease to have fast movement in LG just as soon as they could retrain it away. It would be irresistable :)
haferka 05-17-07, 11:05 PM	People appear to be pointing out that some of Complete Champion is in fact broken and shouldn't be allowed, contrary to Haferka's original scan of the document that suggested nothing broken. No one expects the Circle to allow that nonsense in. Hey.. that almost sounds like a snipe at me.. :) I NEVER said that there was NOTHING broken.. I specificly mentioned sever things that I spoted.. gave a few suggestions.. (just incase people were pushing to add them) The book definitly has some cool, non-broken stuff.. .. but like all books... you must take the good with the bad.
Japangirl 05-17-07, 11:11 PM	Oops :( Didn't mean to snipe at anyone. Sorry about that.
clik_ml 05-18-07, 03:19 AM	Why are you assuming we would be stupid enough to give people the ability to pounce? Not to be harsh, but it's already been given. By way of Wildrunner, Lion's Charge, Lion's Pounce, and of course wildshape. (granted Lion's Charge is NONC... when my druid cavalry gets that, he'll kill everything).
haferka 05-18-07, 09:00 AM	Not to be harsh, but it's already been given. By way of Wildrunner, Lion's Charge, Lion's Pounce, and of course wildshape. (granted Lion's Charge is NONC... when my druid cavalry gets that, he'll kill everything). Bestial Charge (tactical).. Complete Champion... BROKEN. = pounce during a charge, charge from 5' away, charge around corners(multiple corners), swift wildshape during a charge... Forget that Lions Charge..
solbergb 05-18-07, 12:41 PM	Not to be harsh, but it's already been given. By way of Wildrunner, Lion's Charge, Lion's Pounce, and of course wildshape. (granted Lion's Charge is NONC... when my druid cavalry gets that, he'll kill everything). Wildshape - requires five levels of druid and loss of 3 bab, plus most of your equipment. Lion pounce - requires five levels of druid, loss of 3 bab and a feat and a wildshape for each use Wildrunner - don't get it till level 12ish, requires you to be an elf or halfelf, spend a bunch of skillpoints and stay in the PRC past the optimal "dip" point and I think there is some limit to number of times per day (can't remember) These have no comparison in cost to this: Alternate barb class ability from complete champion - requires 1 level of barbarian, which about half the melee builds out there already have just for the rage.
Timlagor 05-18-07, 01:11 PM	Wildrunner: 6 levels is arguably just as powerful a 'dip' point as 2. It works 3+Cha modifier times per day (Cha penalty applies) when Screaming.
clik_ml 05-18-07, 02:11 PM	Wildshape - requires five levels of druid and loss of 3 bab, plus most of your equipment. Lion pounce - requires five levels of druid, loss of 3 bab and a feat and a wildshape for each use I think someone is shorting you on BAB. I suggest you consult with your attorney to see if you can sue for damages caused by this larceny. :-) My 7 Druid/1 Fighter cavalry has a BAB of +6/1 for example. I plan to lose more BAB in the future, but that's later. I know full well that pounce would be given to pretty much everyone if Complete Champion had its way; however, the contention made was that it was a stupid idea to give the Pounce ability to... people (paraphrased). I was stating that this has already been done, and then leaving others to determine whether the conclusion on the Circle's mental acuity held true. Anywho, another red flag in Complete Champ that I've heard about is trading the wizard bonus feat lets wizards spontaneously cast Divinations... and it may well be open-ended such that they can cast all divinations from all spell lists. That's some crazy powerful stuff... and very, very good stuff if it is just restricted to what you've got in your spellbook even.
magebeast 05-18-07, 05:41 PM	I'd like to see open access to the 5th level sorcerer alternative class feature. First class feature that gives a reasonable return on the investment - the metamagic one in exchange for your familiar was okay, but it required you have int which is a dump stat for a number of sorcerers.
copper_wyrmling 05-18-07, 06:26 PM	I'd like to see open access to the 5th level sorcerer alternative class feature. First class feature that gives a reasonable return on the investment - the metamagic one in exchange for your familiar was okay, but it required you have int which is a dump stat for a number of sorcerers. There's a fifth level sorcerer alternate class feature? What on earth does it replace? (Gotta be spells known, I guess... it's not like sorcs get anything else at 5th.) Oh, and my fighter with one level of barbarian might not go for the pounce feature... of course, he's a dervish, he can move and full attack anyway - and it would STILL be tempting because sometimes they're more than a single move away ;)
solbergb 05-18-07, 07:23 PM	When you translate the alternate feature mechanics for Sor5, the upshot is that a sorc is replacing a spell known of every level with a domain spell. Unlike arcane disciple, you KNOW the spell, (but since it subtracts one of your spells each level, it is like you took arcane disciple and chose to take every single spell in the domain) Unlike arcane disciple, it runs off of charisma, which is nice Like arcane disciple, you can only do once/day, which kinda blows. Unless you really want most of the spells, or there is a "killer app" divine spell in there for your character, this is a significantly weaker option than not taking it, since nearly any sorcerer build will suffer for having 9 of its spells known chosen from an arbitrary domain AND those spells aren't available to cast as long as you've got a slot open like the rest of your spells are. Anything on the domain list also on the sor/wiz list is less useful to you than if you had taken it directly.
magebeast 05-18-07, 07:45 PM	When you translate the alternate feature mechanics for Sor5, the upshot is that a sorc is replacing a spell known of every level with a domain spell. Unlike arcane disciple, you KNOW the spell, (but since it subtracts one of your spells each level, it is like you took arcane disciple and chose to take every single spell in the domain) Unlike arcane disciple, it runs off of charisma, which is nice Like arcane disciple, you can only do once/day, which kinda blows. Unless you really want most of the spells, or there is a "killer app" divine spell in there for your character, this is a significantly weaker option than not taking it, since nearly any sorcerer build will suffer for having 9 of its spells known chosen from an arbitrary domain AND those spells aren't available to cast as long as you've got a slot open like the rest of your spells are. Anything on the domain list also on the sor/wiz list is less useful to you than if you had taken it directly. I bet a well built character could take pretty good advantage of the right domain. I have an idea for a flavor sorcerer that may not be maximized mechanically but I think would pretty neat. Only thing i need is to get access to knowledge skills ...
Mommy was an Orc 05-18-07, 07:57 PM	Like arcane disciple, you can only do once/day, which kinda blows. Unless you really want most of the spells, or there is a "killer app" divine spell in there for your character, this is a significantly weaker option than not taking it, since nearly any sorcerer build will suffer for having 9 of its spells known chosen from an arbitrary domain AND those spells aren't available to cast as long as you've got a slot open like the rest of your spells are. Anything on the domain list also on the sor/wiz list is less useful to you than if you had taken it directly. Ouch! Why would anyone do that - you only get 1 spell known on the even spell levels...
magebeast 05-18-07, 09:25 PM	Unlike arcane disciple, you KNOW the spell, (but since it subtracts one of your spells each level, it is like you took arcane disciple and chose to take every single spell in the domain. Totally skimmed this part when I was reading it AND when I was reading what you wrote. Yeah, it's pretty awful.
solbergb 05-20-07, 02:19 PM	Ouch! Why would anyone do that - you only get 1 spell known on the even spell levels... The main reason I can see is for an arcane gish to get access to Divine Power and Magic Vestment and free weapon focus via war domain. He may not need a lot of other spells known for what he has in mind, and he may not have the 14ish wisdom necessary to use arcane disciple, especially given the MAD issues most Gish characters have to deal with.