Confused: riding dog [Archive] - Wizards Community

Confused: riding dog [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Mortepierre
12-15-05, 01:37 PM According to the LG Campaign Sourcebook (p.34),

When you buy an animal, you may pick an extra trick for each point of Intelligence the animal has. You must pick the tricks from page 74 of the PHB under Handle Animal. For the riding dog, you may either pick two tricks or use these trick slots to make the dog trained for fighting and granting them a trip attack (as specified in the riding dog entry in the Monster Manual v.3.5).

According to the PHB, a riding dog can know a max. of 6 tricks. So, that leaves 4 "open" if you have the Handle Animal skill. So far, so good.

Now, the problem. Either I pick 2 tricks from the PHB list OR I use these two "slots" to make my dog "trained for fighting" and grant it a trip attack.

According to the PHB (again), "trained for fighting" is the equivalent of the Attack/Down/Stay tricks and since it takes only 3 weeks of training the "attack" part is only the most basic one (thus your dog won't attack all creatures).

According to MM, "if trained for war, these animals can make trip attacks just as wolves do". There is no mention of just how many tricks it takes to achieve but let's assume 1.

So, in essence, it's either pick 2 tricks or receive 4. Am I the only one who finds that a bit strange?

And am I correct in assuming that if I choose the "trained for fighting + trip" combo, my dog will still have 2 trick slots open? (1 to upgrade Attack and another)
haferka
12-15-05, 03:59 PM Under the "Combat Riding" general purpose, it states that Riding dogs are automaticly trained for combat riding, the associated tricks include:
attack, come, defend, down, guard, heel (6 tricks).

Those are your ONLY tricks, unless your retrain your mount. Retraining the mount would take 1 week per trick that your are replacing.

The MM entry about "Trained for War" is most likely a unique trick specificly for the riding dog. Since "Trip" is not listed under the Riding dogs entry as a Special Attack by default, the generic riding dog would NOT have this ability.

All Riding Dogs, purchased or aquired as animal companions are "generic" riding dogs, thus they would not have the "trained for War" trick and thus not be allowed to trip. Now A druid animal companion gets 1 bonus trick, thus they could gain the "trained for war" trick without replacing any of the default tricks for the "combat riding" general purpose.
solbergb
12-15-05, 08:26 PM Actually druid animal companions are allowed to be fully retrained with any trick mix the druid wants.

A medium sized druid using the dog as an armored warrior wouldn't likely take the "combat riding" package, but instead buy feat by feat what they want (attack, attack unnatural, trained for war, guard, down perhaps and with extras maybe track...more as it advances)

Whereas a halfling cavalry-druid would want combat riding and would probably have to think hard about the bonus tricks
Mortepierre
12-16-05, 04:35 AM Under the "Combat Riding" general purpose, it states that Riding dogs are automaticly trained for combat riding, the associated tricks include:
attack, come, defend, down, guard, heel (6 tricks).

Those are your ONLY tricks, unless your retrain your mount. Retraining the mount would take 1 week per trick that your are replacing.

Which is all fine and good, except that the LGCS doesn't say "combat riding" but "trained for fighting" which is another general purpose listed in the PHB just under combat riding.

The MM entry about "Trained for War" is most likely a unique trick specificly for the riding dog. Since "Trip" is not listed under the Riding dogs entry as a Special Attack by default, the generic riding dog would NOT have this ability.

Then why does the LGCS allow you to pick it?

All Riding Dogs, purchased or aquired as animal companions are "generic" riding dogs, thus they would not have the "trained for War" trick and thus not be allowed to trip.

Again, then why does the LGCS give you the choice between picking 2 tricks or the combo "trained for fighting+trip attack"?
haferka
12-16-05, 05:31 PM I believe that your are getting confused between animal companions & purchased animals.

Purchased animals automaticly have the attack trick (if they have an attack form in the MM, some would not such as a cow). It then states that you get another trick per point of intelligence. This would only be 2 of a creatures possible tricks known (max tricks = 3/point of Int). I havnt seen anywhere in the LGCS where it allows you to train purchased animals beyond the initial tricks that come with it when it is purchased.

The LGCS does give the riding dog as an example for a purchased animal, using the "fighting" general purpose, would acording to the LGCS grant it the trip special attack. The "fighting" purpose contains 3 tricks (attack, down, stay). This tells me a few things...

Trip is just a bonus for the Riding dog if you have the "Fighing" general purpose. It isnt actually a trick.

The example riding dog only gets 3 tricks (attack & 2 others, which with the fighting general purpose would be down & stay), this still follows the LGCS purchased animal limit of tricks 1 (attack) plus 1 per point of intelligence.

Riding dogs without the general purpose of Fighting, do NOT get trip!

Since you are required to have campaign documentation to add additional tricks to "purchased" animals, most Riding dogs are trained for Combat riding (as stated in the PH, and thus would NOT grant trip).

I need to change my Druid companions tricks...

General purpose (fighting) = 3 tricks (attack, down, stay)
extra tricks (4, 3 from Int, 1 from Druid 1) = come, defend, guard, heel
This gives my mount all the tricks of a combat riding mount plus "stay" and I will puckup "attack" for my next bonus trick at 3rd lvl Druid
Mortepierre
12-16-05, 09:58 PM I believe that your are getting confused between animal companions & purchased animals.

Er.. but I never said I was talking about an animal companion. The discussion was about a purchased animal. I know animal companions are the latest rage but some of us non-druid/ranger classes only have purchased animals as option :chicken:

I have a character who has invested heavily in the Handle Animal skill in preparation to buy a riding dog. I was just investigating what he would be facing on the day he actually buys one.
Swiftbrook
12-17-05, 11:59 AM Since you are required to have campaign documentation to add additional tricks to "purchased" animals, most Riding dogs are trained for Combat riding (as stated in the PH, and thus would NOT grant trip).

Where is this stated? If I have the handle animal skill, spend the TU and roll my check for the DM is that good enough? Or can I record it myself (marking off the TUs for the tricks) if I can "take 10" and get over the training DC?

Also, IMO any riding dog that has the attack trick is 'trained for war' and is granted a trip.

-Swiftbrook
haferka
12-17-05, 12:57 PM Where is this stated?

In the LGCS.

If I have the handle animal skill, spend the TU and roll my check for the DM is that good enough? Or can I record it myself (marking off the TUs for the tricks) if I can "take 10" and get over the training DC?

No. LGCS states that you are requred to have "documentation" to have animals or animal companions which are different from the norms. (norms being LGCS stated rules and Core PH/DMG/MM second)

Also, IMO any riding dog that has the attack trick is 'trained for war' and is granted a trip.

Your opinion doesnt matter, its LG. As stated earlier, the PH states that riding dogs by default come with the Combat Riding purpose, but the LGCS states that you can instead have the 3 tricks (attack and 2 others, if you want the trip special attack, you will need to take all 3 tricks in the "Fighting" purpose.

Oh, and BTW, my opinion is that this makes sense, Animals are not meant to provide superior abilities beyond those of characters, although animal companions get pretty close...

Now you can reply stating that my opinon doesnt matter, and just do whatever you want (untill you get caught).
Swiftbrook
12-17-05, 01:25 PM In the LGCS.
No kidding :D . I just don't remember reading it. Any idea where in the LGCS it is? (page number would be helpful).

but the LGCS states that you can instead have the 3 tricks (attack and 2 others, if you want the trip special attack, you will need to take all 3 tricks in the "Fighting" purpose.
That's what I'm looking for. Can't find it.
{edit: Found it - p. 34, spelled out pretty well}

Oh, and BTW, my opinion is that this makes sense, <snip> Now you can reply stating that my opinon doesnt matter, and just do whatever you want (untill you get caught).
Not going to happen. Our opinions help the circle and triads shape LG. Hopefully for the better.

-Swiftbrook
rogerd
12-28-05, 12:58 PM A riding dog comes with attack + 2 tricks, period. It is not trained for combat riding unless the character trains the dog for the other three tricks. Warhorses, warponies and riding dogs are automatically "brave in combat", but don't get the full Combat Riding trick package without additional training. You have to teach it a second attack trick to have it attack all creatures, as per the PHB p.74.

You can train your animal by spending a TU and either making your roll or taking 10 at the end of any regional adventure (LGCS p.40). The training should be noted in the play notes of your AR.

Note that if you have the Combat Riding feat, you can bring along one standard PHB mount without adjusting the APL of the module. Effectively, Combat Riding makes the mount a "class feature". Unfortunately that doesn't help with my Celestial Mounted Borderer Light Warhorse. :D

IMO, the price list in the player's handbook should account for training by including available training packages and the price for each one. The LGCS could fill in this gap instead rather than allowing the ala carte training it does now.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mortepierre 12-15-05, 01:37 PM	According to the LG Campaign Sourcebook (p.34), When you buy an animal, you may pick an extra trick for each point of Intelligence the animal has. You must pick the tricks from page 74 of the PHB under Handle Animal. For the riding dog, you may either pick two tricks or use these trick slots to make the dog trained for fighting and granting them a trip attack (as specified in the riding dog entry in the Monster Manual v.3.5). According to the PHB, a riding dog can know a max. of 6 tricks. So, that leaves 4 "open" if you have the Handle Animal skill. So far, so good. Now, the problem. Either I pick 2 tricks from the PHB list OR I use these two "slots" to make my dog "trained for fighting" and grant it a trip attack. According to the PHB (again), "trained for fighting" is the equivalent of the Attack/Down/Stay tricks and since it takes only 3 weeks of training the "attack" part is only the most basic one (thus your dog won't attack all creatures). According to MM, "if trained for war, these animals can make trip attacks just as wolves do". There is no mention of just how many tricks it takes to achieve but let's assume 1. So, in essence, it's either pick 2 tricks or receive 4. Am I the only one who finds that a bit strange? And am I correct in assuming that if I choose the "trained for fighting + trip" combo, my dog will still have 2 trick slots open? (1 to upgrade Attack and another)
haferka 12-15-05, 03:59 PM	Under the "Combat Riding" general purpose, it states that Riding dogs are automaticly trained for combat riding, the associated tricks include: attack, come, defend, down, guard, heel (6 tricks). Those are your ONLY tricks, unless your retrain your mount. Retraining the mount would take 1 week per trick that your are replacing. The MM entry about "Trained for War" is most likely a unique trick specificly for the riding dog. Since "Trip" is not listed under the Riding dogs entry as a Special Attack by default, the generic riding dog would NOT have this ability. All Riding Dogs, purchased or aquired as animal companions are "generic" riding dogs, thus they would not have the "trained for War" trick and thus not be allowed to trip. Now A druid animal companion gets 1 bonus trick, thus they could gain the "trained for war" trick without replacing any of the default tricks for the "combat riding" general purpose.
solbergb 12-15-05, 08:26 PM	Actually druid animal companions are allowed to be fully retrained with any trick mix the druid wants. A medium sized druid using the dog as an armored warrior wouldn't likely take the "combat riding" package, but instead buy feat by feat what they want (attack, attack unnatural, trained for war, guard, down perhaps and with extras maybe track...more as it advances) Whereas a halfling cavalry-druid would want combat riding and would probably have to think hard about the bonus tricks
Mortepierre 12-16-05, 04:35 AM	Under the "Combat Riding" general purpose, it states that Riding dogs are automaticly trained for combat riding, the associated tricks include: attack, come, defend, down, guard, heel (6 tricks). Those are your ONLY tricks, unless your retrain your mount. Retraining the mount would take 1 week per trick that your are replacing. Which is all fine and good, except that the LGCS doesn't say "combat riding" but "trained for fighting" which is another general purpose listed in the PHB just under combat riding. The MM entry about "Trained for War" is most likely a unique trick specificly for the riding dog. Since "Trip" is not listed under the Riding dogs entry as a Special Attack by default, the generic riding dog would NOT have this ability. Then why does the LGCS allow you to pick it? All Riding Dogs, purchased or aquired as animal companions are "generic" riding dogs, thus they would not have the "trained for War" trick and thus not be allowed to trip. Again, then why does the LGCS give you the choice between picking 2 tricks or the combo "trained for fighting+trip attack"?
haferka 12-16-05, 05:31 PM	I believe that your are getting confused between animal companions & purchased animals. Purchased animals automaticly have the attack trick (if they have an attack form in the MM, some would not such as a cow). It then states that you get another trick per point of intelligence. This would only be 2 of a creatures possible tricks known (max tricks = 3/point of Int). I havnt seen anywhere in the LGCS where it allows you to train purchased animals beyond the initial tricks that come with it when it is purchased. The LGCS does give the riding dog as an example for a purchased animal, using the "fighting" general purpose, would acording to the LGCS grant it the trip special attack. The "fighting" purpose contains 3 tricks (attack, down, stay). This tells me a few things... Trip is just a bonus for the Riding dog if you have the "Fighing" general purpose. It isnt actually a trick. The example riding dog only gets 3 tricks (attack & 2 others, which with the fighting general purpose would be down & stay), this still follows the LGCS purchased animal limit of tricks 1 (attack) plus 1 per point of intelligence. Riding dogs without the general purpose of Fighting, do NOT get trip! Since you are required to have campaign documentation to add additional tricks to "purchased" animals, most Riding dogs are trained for Combat riding (as stated in the PH, and thus would NOT grant trip). I need to change my Druid companions tricks... General purpose (fighting) = 3 tricks (attack, down, stay) extra tricks (4, 3 from Int, 1 from Druid 1) = come, defend, guard, heel This gives my mount all the tricks of a combat riding mount plus "stay" and I will puckup "attack" for my next bonus trick at 3rd lvl Druid
Mortepierre 12-16-05, 09:58 PM	I believe that your are getting confused between animal companions & purchased animals. Er.. but I never said I was talking about an animal companion. The discussion was about a purchased animal. I know animal companions are the latest rage but some of us non-druid/ranger classes only have purchased animals as option :chicken: I have a character who has invested heavily in the Handle Animal skill in preparation to buy a riding dog. I was just investigating what he would be facing on the day he actually buys one.
Swiftbrook 12-17-05, 11:59 AM	Since you are required to have campaign documentation to add additional tricks to "purchased" animals, most Riding dogs are trained for Combat riding (as stated in the PH, and thus would NOT grant trip). Where is this stated? If I have the handle animal skill, spend the TU and roll my check for the DM is that good enough? Or can I record it myself (marking off the TUs for the tricks) if I can "take 10" and get over the training DC? Also, IMO any riding dog that has the attack trick is 'trained for war' and is granted a trip. -Swiftbrook
haferka 12-17-05, 12:57 PM	Where is this stated? In the LGCS. If I have the handle animal skill, spend the TU and roll my check for the DM is that good enough? Or can I record it myself (marking off the TUs for the tricks) if I can "take 10" and get over the training DC? No. LGCS states that you are requred to have "documentation" to have animals or animal companions which are different from the norms. (norms being LGCS stated rules and Core PH/DMG/MM second) Also, IMO any riding dog that has the attack trick is 'trained for war' and is granted a trip. Your opinion doesnt matter, its LG. As stated earlier, the PH states that riding dogs by default come with the Combat Riding purpose, but the LGCS states that you can instead have the 3 tricks (attack and 2 others, if you want the trip special attack, you will need to take all 3 tricks in the "Fighting" purpose. Oh, and BTW, my opinion is that this makes sense, Animals are not meant to provide superior abilities beyond those of characters, although animal companions get pretty close... Now you can reply stating that my opinon doesnt matter, and just do whatever you want (untill you get caught).
Swiftbrook 12-17-05, 01:25 PM	In the LGCS. No kidding :D . I just don't remember reading it. Any idea where in the LGCS it is? (page number would be helpful). but the LGCS states that you can instead have the 3 tricks (attack and 2 others, if you want the trip special attack, you will need to take all 3 tricks in the "Fighting" purpose. That's what I'm looking for. Can't find it. {edit: Found it - p. 34, spelled out pretty well} Oh, and BTW, my opinion is that this makes sense, <snip> Now you can reply stating that my opinon doesnt matter, and just do whatever you want (untill you get caught). Not going to happen. Our opinions help the circle and triads shape LG. Hopefully for the better. -Swiftbrook
rogerd 12-28-05, 12:58 PM	A riding dog comes with attack + 2 tricks, period. It is not trained for combat riding unless the character trains the dog for the other three tricks. Warhorses, warponies and riding dogs are automatically "brave in combat", but don't get the full Combat Riding trick package without additional training. You have to teach it a second attack trick to have it attack all creatures, as per the PHB p.74. You can train your animal by spending a TU and either making your roll or taking 10 at the end of any regional adventure (LGCS p.40). The training should be noted in the play notes of your AR. Note that if you have the Combat Riding feat, you can bring along one standard PHB mount without adjusting the APL of the module. Effectively, Combat Riding makes the mount a "class feature". Unfortunately that doesn't help with my Celestial Mounted Borderer Light Warhorse. :D IMO, the price list in the player's handbook should account for training by including available training packages and the price for each one. The LGCS could fill in this gap instead rather than allowing the ala carte training it does now.