Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LGMoses 12-12-06, 01:09 PM	when do u save these up for players. I actually haven't had an npc/monster do one to a player yet. I try to think of monsters that would coup de grace in a battle. Bugbears come to mind. When do you have monsters coup de grace.
tvknight415 12-12-06, 01:19 PM	I would only coup de grace a pc if a monster description specifically said it would as part of monster tactics. Otherwise, I think it's just mean spirited to put a PC down and out like that, which kills the fun. Using a CdG implies that the DM is out to get the players. If a module ever called for a CdG, I would apologize to my players as I carried it out. Eric
Britt 12-12-06, 01:38 PM	I usually reserve that for someone that really makes me angry, by arguing or something. The setup is usually: I offer to run midnight madness for them, wait until they pass out from the long hours, then walk around the table, grab the chin, and twist. Works everytime.
jstorrie 12-12-06, 01:42 PM	If it's in the box, do it. In my home games, I'd have certain types of mindless undead just keep biting when they downed someone (zombie's gotta eat) but LG players are accustomed to most NPCs being on Team Thug, so that would not be all that appropriate. Generally speaking during a combat most NPCs are more worried about getting out alive than upping their kill count, and should not waste important time cdg'ing when they should be focusing on defending themselves from the rest of the party.
Some_call_me_Tim 12-12-06, 01:51 PM	When do you have monsters coup de grace.When there is a distinct tactical advantage to do so. Just because they can, is not a distinct tactical advantage and as tvknight said it's "just mean spirited" which is not condusive to a good gaming experience. I have had NPCs threaten to coup de grace downed characters to buy time or bargain a couple of times, but have never actually coup de graced a character. I've had NPCs standover a downed character and dare the healer to come over then take his readied action against the cleric as he approached. Generally downed characters are out of commission, if the party cleric insists on bringing them back during the fight, I might coup de grace to prevent healing, but if the PC is bleeding out usually there are more pressing concerns than wasting a full-round action on someone who isn't fighting back. I mean how often to PCs coup de grace NPCs during combat (except in the case of a troll or other fast healing critter)? I don't think I've ever seen it. Generally, it is not a sound tactical move; why should I handle an NPC any different than I would my own character. I don't want to hear the old tired arguement of "because he's EVIL." He may be evil that doesn't make him stupid or any less interested in saving his own skin. If he really is evil, after the fight he can torture the PCs instead of a nice quick painless coup de grace.
kenobi65 12-12-06, 02:09 PM	I usually reserve that for someone that really makes me angry, by arguing or something. The setup is usually: I offer to run midnight madness for them, wait until they pass out from the long hours, then walk around the table, grab the chin, and twist. Works everytime. Ba-dum-BUMP! Yes, while I've killed a few player characters in my time, I have yet to kill an actual player, via coup de grace or otherwise. :D On the positive side...at least everyone's spelling it correctly in this thread. I've seen it called "coup de gras" any number of times (which, I think, translates to "blow of fat"), as well as "coupe de gras" ("cut of fat").
JohnduBois 12-12-06, 02:54 PM	when do u save these up for players. I actually haven't had an npc/monster do one to a player yet. I try to think of monsters that would coup de grace in a battle. Bugbears come to mind. When do you have monsters coup de grace. I have done this only once - intelligent undead (ghasts) had paralyzed half the party and were incapable of reaching the other half (not incapable that turn, incapable at all due to terrain obstructions). They had the choice of waiting for the PCs next to them to become unparalyzed or CdG. No choice at all for even mildly intelligent creatures.
DuctShuiTengu 12-12-06, 03:44 PM	I mean how often to PCs coup de grace NPCs during combat (except in the case of a troll or other fast healing critter)? I don't think I've ever seen it. Generally, it is not a sound tactical move; why should I handle an NPC any different than I would my own character. During combat, I think I've seen all of... 1 CdG. And that one hardly even counts as "during combat." The party bard (at a neighboring table) managed to fascinate the dragon before things turned violent and suggested that it take a nap. Since the entire group was there being friendly, and the Bard was oh-so-willing to reassure it that they'd guard it while it was sleeping and would wake it if there was trouble, this seemed reasonable enough. Said bard then pulled a set of scythes out of his haversack and handed them out to the everyone for the mass-stabbing. After combat... most of my chars have run into enough things that didn't want to stay down that their action following combat is "I CdG each of the bodies once. Then I go around and do it again to anything that looks like it might not be completely dead. And I'm going to continue this until either it gets back up, I'm sure it's dead, or there's not enough of it left to hit."
solbergb 12-12-06, 03:59 PM	It is very rare because it usually doesn't make sense. If it does make sense tactically and by motivation of the critter than I'll do it without heasitation. When is the last time you saw a PC do a coup unless the battle was already the monster-equivalent of a TPK. It's very rare, and usually tied to temporary paralysis effects.
LGMoses 12-12-06, 04:18 PM	yes, it doesn't happen. I'm just trying to think of when and who would do it. I don't think animals such as wolves and unintelligent undead would do it. Wolves lack the ability to quickly kill their prey. I'd say ghasts might like their food alive and just keep biting. :D I can only think of one time anyone in our group has coup de grac'd nething and that was my wizard coup de grac'ing a bugbear that he had just knocked unconscious with his quarterstaff after a long fall down the stairs:P This is before we started RPGA. Our old group had a thing about bugbears. We don't like them. No we do'nt like them at all.
Britt 12-12-06, 04:25 PM	Wolves rip out throats; I'd say that is a way of quickly killing. However, they would also leave a downed opponent for live opponents; they would probably only CDG via throat ripping on sole opponents. Ghasts eat corpses, so I doubt they care if the body is alive or dead.
Some_call_me_Tim 12-12-06, 04:32 PM	not incapable that turn, incapable at all That reminds me of something else I will not do. If a creature or NPC has mulitple attacks and drops a player on the second attack, I will not continue to attack that character simply because he cannot reach another target that turn. It is too meta-gameish for me. If he dropped on the first swing you would move away instead of continuing a full attack. Just because the rules prohibit you have moving after the second attack doesn't mean you should continue because you "have nothing better to do." I just can't bring myself to kill a character over a quirk in the rules.
clannagh 12-12-06, 06:14 PM	In my games there have been situations where players have wanted to pointlessly coup de grace NPC thugs who are bleeding to death with no hope of doing anything other than stabilise and I have warned them this may be interpreted as an evil act for the AR. Considering many of my local players only play one or two games a month at our monthly games days, most take a year to get to level 4, and most are likely to quite LG altogether if they lose that primary character, I would also be wary of using coup de grace against players unless the situation really warranted it and/or the mod required it as a standard tactic.
LGMoses 12-12-06, 08:20 PM	Wolves rip out throats; I'd say that is a way of quickly killing. However, they would also leave a downed opponent for live opponents; they would probably only CDG via throat ripping on sole opponents. Ghasts eat corpses, so I doubt they care if the body is alive or dead. true, if the wolves can. but for larger stuff such as caribou and what not they can't really do that much. Though if the neck is exposed then a throat ripping is sure. Ur right about the ghasts tho. Total misconception on my part. Ah well. I've never had anyone coup de grace an npc so far and I've never coup de graced one.
WeirdEd 12-12-06, 08:47 PM	A wolf, ghoul or any other creature that eats whatever it kills probably will not coup de grace a PC. A coup de grace implies methodical action. More likely they will simply continue to attack the helpless character (+4 bonus if I recall), eating them alive. High level enemies or characters are likely to do this if they think they can pull it off without retribution, although such a ruthless deathblow against a helpless foe tends to imply an evil or coldly pragmatic nature. For the most part, a coup de grace is a move that is meant to finish off a wounded foe with the intention of preventing or at least hindering a rematch (Raise Dead, Create Undead or similar spell of either nature required).
pedr 12-12-06, 09:03 PM	I've thrice run a module with a cleric with hold person prepared and a warrior-type with a ranger level and favoured enemy: human. I roll initiative separately for differently statted NPCs, but twice I've had the warrior go immediately before the cleric, by the die rolls. If it had been the other way around, I'm really not sure how I could have justified not having the cleric cast hold person followed immediately by the warrior CdG'ing the human who rushed to engage the warrior. Positioning would have meant that the CdG would not have provoked from anybody, and to do anything else would be for the warrior to walk into more trouble, out of a pretty defensible position. Both times I was glad that it didn't work, as it's a tactic I don't feel would have been very well received at the table - admittedly I'm the kind of DM who doesn't really like killing characters. As it happened, the first time it happened the warrior critted next round anyway - with a Dwarven War-axe - so the outcome was the same. But I'd be interested to hear people's thoughts - it seems that any time an author sets up that combo - hold person and other equally effective enemies to act before the held person gets a second save - it's begging for DM's to use it, and yet it seems like such an unheroic way to die!
dpmcalister 12-13-06, 07:58 AM	I never use CdG unless the PCs do first - and I let them know that. It's a horrible rule. Having said that, if the scenario tactics said to do it I would but it would to specifically state that and give no other options.
gomeztoo 12-13-06, 08:47 AM	The change to Hold Person (that you can save every round) means it is only really a useful spell if you combine it with CdG. That's what makes it a very unwelcome spell to see a NPC cast.
Madfox11 12-13-06, 08:58 AM	I never use CdG unless the PCs do first - and I let them know that. It's a horrible rule. So how do your PCs kill trolls? ;) To be honest though, I find such a ruling rather silly. The PCs will be in a position to CdG much more often than NPCs, so breaking the rule will rarely have any repurcursions. NPCs also often enough have no other goal that to die anyway. If the PCs want to waste a round to kill an opponent in the middle of fight, than what do I care? Personally, when ony of my PCs is in a position of a CdG and the opponent is of a type that would do a CdG, I fully expect the DM not to hold back or I would feel cheated. Just as I would feel cheated when the DM CdG my PC even though it makes no sense at all. How often does it happen that a PC even ends up in a position where a CdG makes sense anyway? In all 7 years of LG I think I only CdG three PCs and 1 animal companion (which litterally costed the monster 10 rounds). In 1 case the player actually told me to do so while I was still contemplating my options and in the other two cases I really had no other option.
dpmcalister 12-13-06, 09:01 AM	So how do your PCs kill trolls? ;) To be honest though, I find such a ruling rather silly. The PCs will be in a position to CdG much more often than NPCs, so breaking the rule will rarely have any repurcursions. NPCs also often enough have no other goal that to die anyway. If the PCs want to waste a round to kill an opponent in the middle of fight, than what do I care? I've never seen a troll in any LG scenarios I've run or played ;) As for the situational bits, I've had the option (as DM) more times than the PCs have (twice to be exact).
catsclaw 12-13-06, 10:52 AM	I never use CdG unless the PCs do first - and I let them know that. It's a horrible rule.So, you change the tactics other monsters use on the basis of information they wouldn't have, not for a better play experience but because you just dislike the rule the PC's are taking advantage of?
dpmcalister 12-13-06, 11:02 AM	So, you change the tactics other monsters use on the basis of information they wouldn't have, not for a better play experience but because you just dislike the rule the PC's are taking advantage of? No. I make the players aware that, in LG [1], I feel the CdG rule is horrible. I do not stop them from using it, but tell them that if they do, then it is only fair for me to be able to use it on them. No group I've ever DM'd LG for has ever had a problem with this. [1] In a home campaign it's different, if a character dies, the player can create a new one at a similar level to the rest of the characters. In LG, if your character dies, and isn't raised, then you have to make a new 1st-level character with the additional, potential, drawback, of not being able to adventure with the rest of your regular group.
Puggle Halfwine 12-13-06, 11:16 AM	The only time I've ever coupe-de-grace'd a PC was when the rest of the party was down except for him, and he was paralyzed by a hold person. This was a low APL game so the alternative was one attack, or one auto-hit auto-crit. It was literally the only real alternative and my players didn't hold it against me. ... to the best of my knowledge. Don't think they were too happy with the module author however.
kjenks 12-13-06, 11:56 AM	So how do your PCs kill trolls? SRD === A regenerating creature that has been rendered unconscious through nonlethal damage can be killed with a coup de grace. The attack cannot be of a type that automatically converts to nonlethal damage. === So a CDG won't normally work on a troll because most weapon damage automatically converts to nonlethal damage, but they can drown. A bucket of its own blood works. You can get a bucket from the PH equipment list, Core access.
catsclaw 12-13-06, 12:49 PM	No. I make the players aware that, in LG, I feel the CdG rule is horrible. I do not stop them from using it, but tell them that if they do, then it is only fair for me to be able to use it on them. No group I've ever DM'd LG for has ever had a problem with this.Why do you think it's horrible? Is it you don't like the mechanics of it? Or you don't like the idea behind it? Mechanically, when creatures (or PC's) are in negatives, on the ground, bleeding out, there's generally no practical difference between a CdG and taking a solid swing at them. You more-or-less auto-hit unconscious creatures, and if you can't do more than 5-or-so damage in a hit when it matters, you're not long for LG. CdG is much more useful for the Hold Monster kind of scenario, when a creature is near-full HP, might unfreeze at any moment, and easing a sword through its eye is more likely to get rid of it than chopping wildly at it. If you have stylistic problems with CdG, well, that's kind of an issue you should take up with the designers of the game. Telling the players that monsters won't CdG if they don't is perverse. As other people have pointed out, CdG is only rarely a useful tactic; why remove it from the player's arsenal the few times it's actually effective?
LGMoses 12-13-06, 01:40 PM	so what u just stick the trolls head in a bucket of its own blood? Y don't u just put a little oil on ur sword and light it. Just getting some fire from somewhere, smack it with a torch. Something. Drown it? Crazy?
dpmcalister 12-13-06, 01:41 PM	Why do you think it's horrible? Is it you don't like the mechanics of it? Or you don't like the idea behind it? I don't like the fact that you can kill, out-right, without any form of save, a character. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with killing a character but, in order to be fair, it shouldn't as the result of a bad dice roll. As other people have pointed out, CdG is only rarely a useful tactic; why remove it from the player's arsenal the few times it's actually effective? I don't remove it. I tell the players that I won't use it until they do. That leaves them with that tactic if they wish to use it.
LGMoses 12-13-06, 01:43 PM	thats just wierd warning them like that. And you get a save. A really high one but someone did just put their sword through your chest.
kjenks 12-13-06, 01:55 PM	so what u just stick the trolls head in a bucket of its own blood? Y don't u just put a little oil on ur sword and light it. Just getting some fire from somewhere, smack it with a torch. Something. Drown it? Crazy? A little bit of fire will take a really long time to KO a regenerating troll. SRD: "If a torch is used in combat, treat it as a one-handed improvised weapon that deals bludgeoning damage equal to that of a gauntlet of its size, plus 1 point of fire damage." So a medium torch (whatever that means) inflicts some more nonlethal and 1 point of actual fire damage per attack on the snoozing troll, who has 63 hp. A CDG with a torch (20/x2) inflicts 2 damage, prompting a Fort save DC 12 or the troll dies. A standard troll has Fort +11 and will only fail that saving throw on a natural 1. So I think your scheme of "a little oil on ur sword and light it" won't work very well if you have twelve trolls (an EL 12 encounter) lying around snoring. I'd rather get out the buckets.
catsclaw 12-13-06, 01:57 PM	I don't like the fact that you can kill, out-right, without any form of save, a character. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with killing a character but, in order to be fair, it shouldn't as the result of a bad dice roll.Well, you do get a save. And in order to be in a situation to be CdG, you had to put yourself into the situation -- either gotten beaten into unconsciousness, or failed a save against Hold Person, or something similar. And, further, you have to be prevented from getting help from your allies (either they ran off, or are prevented from closing to threaten, or don't present enough of a threat to make attacking them a better alternative to killing you). That's a rather significant mix of bad planning and bad luck on the dice, with plenty of opportunities for a different outcome. I don't remove it. I tell the players that I won't use it until they do. That leaves them with that tactic if they wish to use it.Just out of curiousity, what do you do if the mod specifically says the bad guys will CdG? Do you refuse to when you run it? Or do you tell the players, contrary to your usual rules, in this mod the bad guys will CdG, so be ready for it?
dpmcalister 12-13-06, 02:01 PM	Just out of curiousity, what do you do if the mod specifically says the bad guys will CdG? Do you refuse to when you run it? Or do you tell the players, contrary to your usual rules, in this mod the bad guys will CdG, so be ready for it? If the scenario specifically states it then I will run it as written. As for what I'd tell the players, I don't know. I haven't come across that situation yet :)
clannagh 12-13-06, 08:29 PM	So how do your PCs kill trolls? ;) The PCs will be in a position to CdG much more often than NPCs, so breaking the rule will rarely have any repurcursions. Game balancewise .. in most encounters the monsters are going to eventually die later in the encounter so a CdG just shortens the combat ... whereas for a PC it is a major problem and in the case of a TPK may result in loss of a character. In other words a PC using a CdG is not the same thing as a monster doing it.
wooti 12-13-06, 08:39 PM	I've use CdG once, the enemy wizard the last one standing and didn't have any useful spells left and had a paralized pc (from a ghast attack) next to him. He said "back off or your friend gets it". The PCs continued to attack so he went through with his threat, and did all of 6ish damage and the PC made his save the rest of the PCs didn't give the wizard a second chance.
Shieldhart91 12-13-06, 10:21 PM	I usually don't CdG, mainly because it's rare that any NPC has a set of actions that drops my usual troupe of players past -10. That being said, unless the player is very aggravating...or it says so in the module- I try to avoid it. Enemies that paralyze foes...eh...that's another situation, as John said.
Evanta 12-14-06, 05:59 AM	99% of the time, it's just not a sound battle tactic to coup-de-grace, so I usually don't do it. The singular exception so far has been hold person. Since it's perfectly reasonable that if I I'm playing the monsters properly, they WILL kill the held person once the paralysis takes effect, than for him to potentially be unfrozen. However the time that I tried, the PCs managed to kill the couping monster fast enuff before he chopped the held person's head off.
Simpi 12-14-06, 12:04 PM	However the time that I tried, the PCs managed to kill the couping monster fast enuff before he chopped the held person's head off. I belive you might have a mis-conception about CdG. It is not "1-round action" like, for example, a summon monster spell. CdG is merely a full-round action like Rapid Shot and usually a 5ft step is enough to guarantee it's success without person-about-to-be-decapitated friends doing anything about it. Of course it could be started as standard action on one round and finished on other round but in my opinion that is completely pointless tactic that puts coup-de-gracer into unnecessary danger. Better to just take a regular swing at your target with massive bonuses and then finish him off the next round if the first one was not enough to put it down. Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad
JohnduBois 12-14-06, 12:07 PM	I belive you might have a mis-conception about CdG. It is not "1-round action" like, for example, a summon monster spell. CdG is merely a full-round action like Rapid Shot and usually a 5ft step is enough to guarantee it's success without person-about-to-be-decapitated friends doing anything about it. Of course it could be started as standard action on one round and finished on other round but in my opinion that is completely pointless tactic that puts coup-de-gracer into unnecessary danger. Better to just take a regular swing at your target with massive bonuses and then finish him off the next round if the first one was not enough to put it down. Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad Pfft - just give the NPCs the Death Blow feat and it's a non-issue.
Simpi 12-14-06, 12:21 PM	Pfft - just give the NPCs the Death Blow feat and it's a non-issue. Death Blow was a feat from Sword & Fist which is no longer used in LG and I do not belive it has been re-printed elsewhere. Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad
JohnduBois 12-14-06, 12:24 PM	Death Blow was a feat from Sword & Fist which is no longer used in LG and I do not belive it has been re-printed elsewhere. Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad Death Blow was reprinted in Complete Adventurer.
Mommy was an Orc 12-14-06, 12:55 PM	I belive you might have a mis-conception about CdG. It is not "1-round action" like, for example, a summon monster spell. CdG is merely a full-round action like Rapid Shot and usually a 5ft step is enough to guarantee it's success without person-about-to-be-decapitated friends doing anything about it. I think you're implying something about how you run initiative, which is to say, you roll once for all the opponents. If all major opponents roll separately, then it is a lot more difficult to do the manuever in the way you describe. If the Fighter has to delay to make that action work, he risks being taken out before the Cleric can cast the spell, making delaying usually not worth it. He then has to wait until his next turn to CdG, where the friends of the character will be concentrating their firepower on him to prevent the CdG from going off.
rogerd 12-14-06, 02:30 PM	If Hold Person + Coup-de-Grace is a bad combo, what about Finger of Death or Slay Living? Effectively, Hold Person is a "save-or-die" spell, at least used in groups. The same can be said for Sleep. I tend to agree that using Coup-de-Grace against a downed opponent is typically a waste of time, but smart enemies that know about healing magic might do it anyhow, especially if they're not being threatened. I've been in two situations where I felt my character should have been Coup-de-Graced. I mentioned it in both cases, and the DM elected not to do it. There seems to be an unwritten rule that Coup-de-Grace should not be used by the NPC's. I don't know what I'd do as a judge. It hasn't come up yet. I lean towards using it if I judge that's what the NPC would do. Roger
Lord Yod 12-14-06, 02:41 PM	If I was playing a mod, and the tactical situation called for the enemy to CdG me, I would feel cheated if the DM softballed it. (I would at least ask why they hadn't done it, anyways) One of my pet peeves is judges that softball fights - if the half-orc barb critted me with his greataxe, well that's the way the cookie crumbles and I took the risk when I provoked the AoO. If you instead say 'oh well that was a 19', it encourages me to take those risks without considering the consequences. One of the consequences of going off on your own, out of the range of mutual support from the party, is getting CdG'd by the bad guys. The fact that it is almost never a tactically good decision doesn't mean that it won't be done. (I've had a couple of PC deaths, and every one of them was in theory preventable - low HP gish builds should not go charging off on their own. I knew what I was getting into, though.) In the encounter pedr described above, I would be fully expecting that CdG. As a DM, I won't go out of my way to create situations that make a CdG a good tactic. But if the *players* do it for me, they need to know the consequences of their actions. -Pete
JamesMaissen 12-16-06, 12:55 AM	so what u just stick the trolls head in a bucket of its own blood? Y don't u just put a little oil on ur sword and light it. Just getting some fire from somewhere, smack it with a torch. Something. Drown it? Crazy? You suffocate them of course, doesn't everyone? Or as my dwarf likes to phrase it, you "ostrich 'em". As Ken mentioned you can only CdG with a weapon that does lethal damage to the victim. -James
The_Jester 12-16-06, 11:48 AM	Well, a coup de grace does provoke an attack of opportunity so the best way to stop someone from decapitating your held friend is grabbing a melee weapon and standing beside them. An automatic death is one thing but no one likes taking a free hit to do that. Other than that I'll use it mostly as a threat. Hold person a crowd and put the fear of god into them so they push to make those saves, possibly dropping a few favours while the rest of the group rushes to help. Hold person got nerfed pretty hard in the switch to 3.5 so there has to be some *oomf* to the spell. I likely wouldn't coup de grace someone unless I was playing with a group known for that.
ucfjedi 12-16-06, 03:25 PM	I see alot of mixed oppinions on the subject so i will throw in mine. How ive always done it is as follows. APL 2-4 :) softball combat, APL 6-10 :D no pulled punches and 12-14 :weep: DONT SIT AT MY TABLE UNLESS YOUR CHARACTER HAS BALLS. I figure that way you got a chance to get your character some HP, then you get to really have a slugfest and finally you get to go for broke in high level style combat.
The_Jester 12-16-06, 05:18 PM	I judge the difficulty based on the players not the APL. If they can take it I'm going to try and dish it out. If I'm playing with a bunch of pros why should I go easy just because the highest level is 5? By the same token I'm not going to set out to be mean on a fun and light group just because the level total adds up to the three digits.
Madfox11 12-18-06, 04:42 AM	Well, a coup de grace does provoke an attack of opportunity so the best way to stop someone from decapitating your held friend is grabbing a melee weapon and standing beside them. An automatic death is one thing but no one likes taking a free hit to do that. Actually, the best way is to get your friend out of harm's way either by bull rushing the enemy or your friend - depending on the circumstances. Another good tactic is to grapple the threatening opponent. The downside is that you might get hurt, but most of the time that is better than the death of your ally. The AoO generated by the coup de grace doesn't have to pose much of a threat depending on the PC and villain in question.
_m_ 12-18-06, 07:16 PM	Actually, the best way is to get your friend out of harm's way either by bull rushing the enemy or your friend - depending on the circumstances. Another good tactic is to grapple the threatening opponent. The downside is that you might get hurt, but most of the time that is better than the death of your ally. The AoO generated by the coup de grace doesn't have to pose much of a threat depending on the PC and villain in question. id rather think, since alot of people suck at bullrushing, that transposition would be higher on the list of the 'best' way to stop them. though best will be situational. whats to say that casting wierd and killing all the baddies simultaneously isnt the 'best' way of saving your friend.
clannagh 12-18-06, 11:31 PM	id rather think, since alot of people suck at bullrushing, that transposition would be higher on the list of the 'best' way to stop them. though best will be situational. whats to say that casting wierd and killing all the baddies simultaneously isnt the 'best' way of saving your friend. you mean: get bard to lay down .. play dead wait for baddy to come and try CdG Benign Transpose that raging barbarian in something like that ????
_m_ 12-19-06, 12:07 AM	you mean: get bard to lay down .. play dead wait for baddy to come and try CdG Benign Transpose that raging barbarian in something like that ???? indeed. thats one funny spell. perhaps bening transposition a grapple monkey also.
Bob_the_Theurge 12-19-06, 11:36 AM	SRD === A regenerating creature that has been rendered unconscious through nonlethal damage can be killed with a coup de grace. The attack cannot be of a type that automatically converts to nonlethal damage. === So a CDG won't normally work on a troll because most weapon damage automatically converts to nonlethal damage, but they can drown. A bucket of its own blood works. You can get a bucket from the PH equipment list, Core access. I Coup de Grace the Troll with a flaming torch to the groin area!
kjenks 12-19-06, 02:55 PM	I Coup de Grace the Troll with a flaming torch to the groin area! A torch inflicts 1 point of actual fire damage per attack on the troll's groin. The troll has 63 hp (and a whole lot of nonlethal damage). A CDG with a torch is already a critical hit (20/x2) which inflicts 2 damage, prompting a Fort save DC 12 or the troll dies. A standard troll has Fort +11 and will only fail that saving throw on a natural 1. If you have sneak attack damage, you also inflict that on a CDG. Sneak attack damage is the same type as the weapon you use, so it's nonlethal damage when using a torch as a melee weapon on a troll. Forget the torch. Just use a bucket.
DuctShuiTengu 12-19-06, 03:14 PM	Energy Substitution: fire (or acid) with Shocking Grasp.
_m_ 12-19-06, 04:55 PM	Energy Substitution: fire (or acid) with Shocking Grasp. i must admit, i havent seen anyone with energy sub fire, since so many spells are already fire. seems more practical to sub into something less likely to be resisted.
Lupo 12-19-06, 05:12 PM	i must admit, i havent seen anyone with energy sub fire, since so many spells are already fire. seems more practical to sub into something less likely to be resisted. my somehow strange bright desert dwarven wizard ha taken energy sub [fire] at level 3, he just wants even MORE fire spells. basically taking the energy spells WITHOUT fire to substitute them to fire, he also has the "searing spell" feat. ciao martin m.
_m_ 12-19-06, 06:33 PM	my somehow strange bright desert dwarven wizard ha taken energy sub [fire] at level 3, he just wants even MORE fire spells. basically taking the energy spells WITHOUT fire to substitute them to fire, he also has the "searing spell" feat. ciao martin m. ah. well searing spell changes the equasion somewhat. still, fireball is kind of... already sort of flaming. so is... um... scorching ray. energy sub electric, born of the 3 thunders is an option.
Lupo 12-19-06, 06:59 PM	ah. well searing spell changes the equasion somewhat. still, fireball is kind of... already sort of flaming. so is... um... scorching ray. energy sub electric, born of the 3 thunders is an option. no it is even worse, fire substituted "ice storm" ;) you know, no saves :D as usual, every energy substitution is nice, as long as you tailor your spell selction around it :) ciao martin m.
_m_ 12-19-06, 07:51 PM	no it is even worse, fire substituted "ice storm" ;) you know, no saves :D as usual, every energy substitution is nice, as long as you tailor your spell selction around it :) ciao martin m. very true. energy substitution non lethal anyone?
kjenks 12-19-06, 11:28 PM	Energy Substitution: fire (or acid) with Shocking Grasp. I have not seen any rules allowing a CDG with a spell. Have you?
_m_ 12-19-06, 11:43 PM	I have not seen any rules allowing a CDG with a spell. Have you? i havent either.
clannagh 12-20-06, 12:48 AM	I have not seen any rules allowing a CDG with a spell. Have you? a prepared touch spell such as shocking grasp or produce flame counts for an AoO so possibly it would also count for CdG
kjenks 12-20-06, 09:12 AM	a prepared touch spell such as shocking grasp or produce flame counts for an AoO so possibly it would also count for CdG Those pesky rules get in the way, though... SRD === Coup de Grace: As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target. You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. You can’t deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to “find” the creature once you’ve determined what square it’s in, and one to deliver the coup de grace). === I can't see any way that a spell, even a touch spell, could count as a melee weapon, bow or crossbow. I'd love to find a way for a touch spell to count as a melee weapon. That way, I'd be able to use Power Attack with touch spells. That would be sweet. But, no, those pesky rules get in the way.
DuctShuiTengu 12-20-06, 10:55 AM	Those pesky rules get in the way, though... SRD === Coup de Grace: As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target. You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. You can’t deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to “find” the creature once you’ve determined what square it’s in, and one to deliver the coup de grace). === I can't see any way that a spell, even a touch spell, could count as a melee weapon, bow or crossbow. I'd love to find a way for a touch spell to count as a melee weapon. That way, I'd be able to use Power Attack with touch spells. That would be sweet. But, no, those pesky rules get in the way. I would have assumed, given the rules about Weaponlike Spells (Pages 85 and 86 of Complete Arcane) that touch spells could be used to CdG. Though Coup de Grace isn't specificly mentioned there.
Lord Yod 12-20-06, 11:29 AM	If the spell requires an attack roll, and rolls some form of damage, why shouldn't it be allowed for a CdG? In other words, you can roll a crit, why not CdG? CdG is essentially just taking 2-3 times as long to ensure a crit, by hitting a vital spot. You can do it with your sword, why can't you do it with your electrically-charged fingertip?
clannagh 12-20-06, 08:03 PM	Well if you take the literal wording of the CdG .. "melee weapon" rather than "armed" then spells may be out. But so would a monk with unarmed strike.
LGMoses 12-20-06, 11:20 PM	true but noone goes EXACTLY by the book. For instance, something I do is let people charge with thrown weapons for the +2 to hit bonus. This makes sense if you think of javelins and spears. I've never given the bonus for nething else though but its never come up for say, a sling:P
Ramacass 12-21-06, 04:46 AM	What if a monster sneaks up on a sleeping party of adventures. Why not CdG?
solbergb 12-21-06, 03:51 PM	If the party didn't post a guard, they deserve it.
clannagh 12-21-06, 05:36 PM	What if a monster sneaks up on a sleeping party of adventures. Why not CdG? hmmm .. create an inn with only single rooms seperated by thick walls and snow storm outside .. get incorporeal to enter seperate rooms and cast slumber or hold person on already sleeping PC's (no will save when asleep i assume) .. then run around with a scythe :)
Japangirl 12-21-06, 05:45 PM	If it's only single rooms, two to the bed and 4 on the floor. I don't think any party I've been in has split up more than three and three after about APL 4.
clannagh 12-21-06, 05:50 PM	If it's only single rooms, two to the bed and 4 on the floor. I don't think any party I've been in has split up more than three and three after about APL 4. hmmm .. I am sure I can think of some even more devious evil plan given time shame entangle doesnt allow CdG i could just fly-by-attack the party with flying creatures with scythes
Lupo 12-21-06, 05:55 PM	hmmm .. I am sure I can think of some even more devious evil plan given time shame entangle doesnt allow CdG i could just fly-by-attack the party with flying creatures with scythes get yourself or your mount hover . . . . has the additional benefit, nobody sees you, my druid has a dire bat mount with hover :P ciao martin m.
Japangirl 12-21-06, 06:00 PM	hmmm .. I am sure I can think of some even more devious evil plan given time shame entangle doesnt allow CdG i could just fly-by-attack the party with flying creatures with scythes Oh I'm sure you could ;) . I was just saying that the incorporeal scythe idea wouldn't work on the totally paranoid parties I play with.
clannagh 12-21-06, 06:02 PM	get yourself or your mount hover . . . . has the additional benefit, nobody sees you, my druid has a dire bat mount with hover :P ciao martin m. yah true my archer has access to a dire eagle which will (with improved flight) soon gain hover and has 10' reach so an encounter that starts by entangling a party and then hovering over them with 10' reach dire eagles would be fun for the GM .. but still its not CdG :) i am looking for some funky ways of CdGing entire parties in a mod
Japangirl 12-21-06, 06:09 PM	Which dragon has sleep gas poison again? *Looks around innocently*.
solbergb 12-21-06, 06:36 PM	If it's only single rooms, two to the bed and 4 on the floor. I don't think any party I've been in has split up more than three and three after about APL 4. Yeh...I've been attacked in Inn's often enough that most of my chars don't treat them as much safer than camping outdoors. In one case it was most embarassing. Due to a high charisma bard with motivate charisma one of my characters got "lucky" for the first time in her young life and later in the night when the screaming started and she jumped out of the window to help...lets just say she won't be sleeping in anything but armor ever again, even if she does get "lucky" again. And her party members have been threatened with dire consequences if they ever speak of that night again.
Lupo 12-21-06, 07:09 PM	Yeh...I've been attacked in Inn's often enough that most of my chars don't treat them as much safer than camping outdoors. who has told you, inns were safe?????:D outdoors a party can be safe in a "secure shelter" or "tiny hut", but in towns, it's just too dangerous . . . . and they don't allow my druid's pet cat inside towns :rant: he just feels so lost there:rolleyes: outdoors the BBG has to search for you, in towns they just ask the inn keeper, the same goes for the one or other governmental agents that are after some of my characters. so avoid towns ;) get your survival up and become a happy camper :) ciao martin m.
Sieylianna 12-21-06, 09:00 PM	If the party didn't post a guard, they deserve it. We've run into this situation before. The party is sleeping with guards, but the PCs on watch can't make the spot/listen checks and the bad guys are right on top of you (because they are optimized to sneak up and you're stuck in heavy woods) or you have a four player table and end up with a single person on watch due to spellcasters needing uninterrupted sleep. Ed
Akhamshyy 12-21-06, 11:41 PM	We've run into this situation before. The party is sleeping with guards, but the PCs on watch can't make the spot/listen checks and the bad guys are right on top of you (because they are optimized to sneak up and you're stuck in heavy woods) or you have a four player table and end up with a single person on watch due to spellcasters needing uninterrupted sleep. Ed That is what Alarm is for. Normally animals avoid camps, the dangerous things will wake you up. And the spellcaster should be considerate enough to cast it if they're going to nod off for the whole night. Or find an extradimensional pocket for the party...
Madfox11 12-22-06, 04:39 AM	Yeh...I've been attacked in Inn's often enough that most of my chars don't treat them as much safer than camping outdoors. I always have mixed feeling about such behaviour. From a player's point of view it makes perfect sense, but how often has your character been attacked in an inn? Now compare that amount to the amount of times your character slept in a tavern, taking into account all the days in between adventures. One of my PCs made it to 11th level with only ONE attack at a tavern during the night. My other PCs (8th, 3rd and 1st) never were attacked during sleep at an inn at all. Plaing watches while sleeping at an inn seems awefull paranoid from a character's point of view ;)
DuctShuiTengu 12-22-06, 05:11 AM	I always have mixed feeling about such behaviour. From a player's point of view it makes perfect sense, but how often has your character been attacked in an inn? Now compare that amount to the amount of times your character slept in a tavern, taking into account all the days in between adventures. One of my PCs made it to 11th level with only ONE attack at a tavern during the night. My other PCs (8th, 3rd and 1st) never were attacked during sleep at an inn at all. Plaing watches while sleeping at an inn seems awefull paranoid from a character's point of view ;) How many times does setting watches have to save you from being killed in your sleep, or even just robbed before it's worth it? I know plenty of people who own a gun for defense, but have never had to use it. My characters are very confused about why they only ever get ambushed when they're in a group, but aren't going to ignore ignore it either.
Lupo 12-22-06, 05:33 AM	I always have mixed feeling about such behaviour. From a player's point of view it makes perfect sense, but how often has your character been attacked in an inn? Now compare that amount to the amount of times your character slept in a tavern, taking into account all the days in between adventures. One of my PCs made it to 11th level with only ONE attack at a tavern during the night. My other PCs (8th, 3rd and 1st) never were attacked during sleep at an inn at all. Plaing watches while sleeping at an inn seems awefull paranoid from a character's point of view ;) let's see: group of killers brings havoc to some patrons in an inn while everyone is paralyzed, PCs are witnesses :rant: one of the worst module starts ever being "invited" to do (or be) the entertainment program :D fire elemtal assault during the night . . . . at APL 6 and it wasn't small or medium :rolleyes: city guards after my characters numerous times, always the same city, different characters :) couple of ghosts after a certain NPC, any good PC should try to stop them, damned meta-gamers, all stepped back "they are GHOSTS", my character was bold enough to try it - or silly enough ;) these are only the ones i remember most vivid :D oh, a last one; TWO MOBS out for troubleseeking, PCs not allowed to use lethal force . . . . . ciao martin m.
kjenks 12-22-06, 09:49 AM	I would have assumed, given the rules about Weaponlike Spells (Pages 85 and 86 of Complete Arcane) that touch spells could be used to CdG. Though Coup de Grace isn't specificly mentioned there. The thing is that if a touch spell can be used as a melee weapon for a CDG, then you should logically be able to use it as a melee weapon for Power Attack. But I've looked through all of the rules and I can't find any way to do that legally. I have a half-orc druid/fighter who'd love to be able to use Power Attack and/or Spirited Charge with Produce Flame or Flame Blade, but those pesky rules seem to prevent it. If you find something in Complete Arcane or elsewhere that allows a touch spell to be used this way, please let all of us know.
Lupo 12-22-06, 10:26 AM	The thing is that if a touch spell can be used as a melee weapon for a CDG, then you should logically be able to use it as a melee weapon for Power Attack. But I've looked through all of the rules and I can't find any way to do that legally. I have a half-orc druid/fighter who'd love to be able to use Power Attack and/or Spirited Charge with Produce Flame or Flame Blade, but those pesky rules seem to prevent it. If you find something in Complete Arcane or elsewhere that allows a touch spell to be used this way, please let all of us know. actually there was (and is) some discussion whether "flame blade", "produce flame " and "scimitar of sand" can be used together with power attack as similar thingies like the master thrower's "weak spot" ability in combination with "power throw". some reasons to disallow power attack: the spells and the special abilities state that the strength modifier isn't added to the damage of the attack. some draw the conclusion that power attack has something to do with strength as it has a prerequisite of str 13. some reasons to allow power attack: some attacks derive their actual attack bonus not from strength but from dexterity, like a dex monkey spiked chain wielder with "weapon finesse". and a prerequisite has nothing to do with the actual feat use. i.e. you don't have to "dodge" any foe to use "spring attack" or "whirlwind attack" :). and one can use power attack with rapier and spiked chain, weapons that are dex based, as they can also be used with weapon finesse. "produce flame" might be dubious, but "flame blade" and "scimitar of sand" are described as creating weaponlike magical effects. when one can use "power attack" with a weapon that is enchanted with "brilliant blade", i see no problems here either. and sneak attackers can also use "power attack" to up their "precision based" damage output. so, while these attacks don't count your strength modifier to damage, some think (including me, but i can live with a different ruling of a DM) that you can use power attack with it. as usual E.T.V. :rolleyes: ciao martin m. ps: edited for some clarifications and additions :)
Japangirl 12-22-06, 04:02 PM	I have been told that on dex-based weapons, if you are Finessing it you can't also power attack with it. I do not know the source of this ruling if it exists; however I would guess it to be the FAQ since neither feat mentions it.
Howie23 12-22-06, 04:24 PM	I have been told that on dex-based weapons, if you are Finessing it you can't also power attack with it. I do not know the source of this ruling if it exists; however I would guess it to be the FAQ since neither feat mentions it. The usual issue is that you cannot gain the benefit of Power Attack with light weapons. Weapon Finesse, other than the stated exceptions, benefits only when using light weapons. So, it is only the stated exceptions that allow Weapon Finesse with non-light weapons that can be Power Attacked. By the FAQ, you can Finesse and Power Attack with non-light weapons that are Finessable. Rapier and Spiked Chain are the specific examples given; Elven courtblade and thinblade can be used this way, and I'm sure folks can find other examples. The FAQ reference is p.30 of the 12/20/06 FAQ. David
Necrochaos 12-24-06, 09:55 PM	I have ben CdG'ed in a IUZ module before. But, it was because the players could not get to me to save me. I didn't have a problem with it. It seemed like a good tactic for the monster to lure the other players in. I think that too many players take RPGA too seriously. Sure, I don't like to see my character die, but it happens. If there isn't that chance of death, the game isn't fun. There has to be risk involved. Someone has to die. As long as it isn't delibrate by a DM to kill a player out of spite or to make a point, I don't see the problem. If it is written in the tactics, I have much less of a problem.
JamesMaissen 12-25-06, 03:15 AM	I always have mixed feeling about such behaviour. From a player's point of view it makes perfect sense, but how often has your character been attacked in an inn? Now compare that amount to the amount of times your character slept in a tavern, taking into account all the days in between adventures. One of my PCs made it to 11th level with only ONE attack at a tavern during the night. My other PCs (8th, 3rd and 1st) never were attacked during sleep at an inn at all. Plaing watches while sleeping at an inn seems awefull paranoid from a character's point of view ;) Real life analogies are flawed from the begining, but that's never stopped me before. Imagine you've been mugged while walking late at night. Would you be more cautious in the future? Now what if it's happened to a majority of your companions? Given the life of an adventurer it seems reasonable to take all the precautions that you can as one (I would assume that's one reason why many NPCs don't choose such a life). Perhaps if it's never happened to your character and they've never heard of it happening to others you might be under that impression as your character, just like you might think it was perfectly safe to walk alone late at night in a bad neighborhood. On another real note consider how Roman legions would behaive when on the march. They would make defensible camps with earthworks. I don't know that most parties will go to such lengths, but imho it's more prudence than paranoia. How many enemies have your characters made over their career? -James
JamesMaissen 12-25-06, 03:19 AM	Those pesky rules get in the way, though... I can't see any way that a spell, even a touch spell, could count as a melee weapon, bow or crossbow. I'd love to find a way for a touch spell to count as a melee weapon. That way, I'd be able to use Power Attack with touch spells. That would be sweet. But, no, those pesky rules get in the way. Couldn't you elect to do lethal damage with an unarmed strike (-4 to hit or have the feat) and Coup with it while holding a charge for a touch spell? -James
DuctShuiTengu 12-25-06, 06:42 PM	Couldn't you elect to do lethal damage with an unarmed strike (-4 to hit or have the feat) and Coup with it while holding a charge for a touch spell? -James Not sure about this. The rules in Complete Arcane specificly say that if you use an Unarmed Strike to deliver a touch spell, and you crit, the unarmed strike damage is multiplied, not the spell damage. Given that, I could easily see the spell being treated as incidental to the CdG.
solbergb 12-27-06, 01:47 PM	I always have mixed feeling about such behaviour. From a player's point of view it makes perfect sense, but how often has your character been attacked in an inn? It only takes once to make you paranoid. Adventurers make enemies, and they live very dangerous lives. If assassins woke you up one night in a comfortable inn, and you never got at the root cause of them chasing you, do you think you'd ever rest easy? I certainly would not. My characters don't start out paranoid. But some are afraid of different things. My monk considers open roads and taverns (other than the Pious Pilgrim chain in the Pale) extremely hazardous, and shudders at the thought of entering a forest. My barb/druid used to feel safe in inn's. Now she does not, having been attacked by something that materialized in one, and then later having to jump out the window to respond to a cry for help. My dwarf has yet to be attacked in an inn, but he and his sister consider cities as hazardous as the underdark, especially sewers, and really especially Greyhawk City Sewers. Those things are just PACKED with undead! My characters with familiars just have them pull watch schedule in inns. They're more likely to notice something anyway. My favored soul has noticed that his patron deity likes to make his life "interesting" no matter how hard he tries to avoid it. So he remains in armor at all times and tries to convince his flaky companion to post a watch (this is easier when it isn't just the two of them traveling). Plus they're hunted by slave lords who keep trying to beat them up. Bertrand doesn't do watches. That's what his manservant is for.
jhorred 12-27-06, 02:09 PM	my somehow strange bright desert dwarven wizard ha taken energy sub [fire] at level 3, he just wants even MORE fire spells. basically taking the energy spells WITHOUT fire to substitute them to fire, he also has the "searing spell" feat. ciao martin m. Copy cat... :D :D
clannagh 01-01-07, 07:08 PM	I have been told that on dex-based weapons, if you are Finessing it you can't also power attack with it. I do not know the source of this ruling if it exists; however I would guess it to be the FAQ since neither feat mentions it. I recall an older wizards publication .. possibly the 3.0 PHB .. actually recommended using power attack to increase damage with finessed weapons like rapiers. Not that a 3.0 book is overly relevant in 3.5
rockondon 01-01-07, 07:40 PM	I never CdG unless it specifically says to. If it says to do it I still won't do it until every other pc has fled or been killed or knocked unconscious.
Arvagor 01-01-07, 07:45 PM	I have been told that on dex-based weapons, if you are Finessing it you can't also power attack with it.Incorrect; in fact the 3.5 FAQ (page 30, 12/20/06 version) explicitly allows it, as long as the weapon/attack meets all other Power Attack requirements: Normally, you have to use a light weapon to benefit from the Weapon Finesse feat. You can also use a rapier or a spiked chain with Weapon Finesse. You cannot use the Power Attack feat with a light weapon. Can you use a spiked chain or a rapier and benefit from both Weapon Finesse and Power Attack at the same time? Yes. A rapier or a spiked chain made for a creature of your size is not a light weapon, even when you’re using the weapon with the Weapon Finesse feat. If you have both feats and use a rapier or a spiked chain, you can manage power and finesse in the same attack.
draxynnic 01-01-07, 10:16 PM	On the original topic: Not all fights occur in a vacuum. A sufficiently fanatical or spiteful foe, faced with a situation where they're clearly not going to prevail themselves, may well choose to sacrifice themselves to make sure one of their foes stays dead (either so that that foe is no longer a threat to their master, or simply through "I'm taking you down with me!" thinking). There's no point in doing what's 'tactically optimal' when that's only going to prolong the combat for a round or two to no strategic benefit when a CDG can result in a strategic benefit. This should be uncommon, though - most foes in such a desperate situation should be looking to flee or surrender. That said, I prefer not to do it in LG, unless the party really seems to be asking for it. I prefer not to kill PCs to bad luck if I can avoid it (given the way this can mess up not only that players, but others when tables suddenly become nonviable), but if someone leaves themself exposed or the party repeatedly leaves helpless allies unprotected...
rockondon 01-02-07, 04:44 AM	What my be an interesting tactic is for the bad guy to position himself for a CdG and threaten the PCs to back off or he'll finish off their buddy.
Iswald 01-04-07, 10:44 PM	What my be an interesting tactic is for the bad guy to position himself for a CdG and threaten the PCs to back off or he'll finish off their buddy. The problem with this is that CDG is a full round action. The NPC could ready a CDG if the PCs don't comply, but then the NPC would have to have the Death Blow feat (and improved init so they could ready CDG as a standard action). Or, the NPC could threaten as a free action and delay. Anyhow, most NPCs trying this kind of tactic would probably be easy to defeat before the CDG finishes. At the very least, you could always bull rush the NPC away from the victim.